WEBVTT

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Tonight, we're delighted to have the

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authors of the New York Times

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best-selling book, On Courage: How

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to be a Dissident in an Age of Fear.

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In the book, authors Julia Angwin

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and Ami Fields-Meyer interviewed

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students, workers, and everyday

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citizens around the globe who took

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on autocrats and won.

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Then they turned what they learned

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into a field guide for how ordinary

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people can organize, resist, and

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defeat authoritarianism.

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No wonder it's become a best seller

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in just a week after it was

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published in June.

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So I'm just gonna give a brief

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introduction of our guest speakers.

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Julia Angwin is a Pulitzer Prize

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winning investigative journalist and

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author. She's worked at many

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newsrooms, including the New York

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Times and the Wall Street Journal,

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writing on technology, surveillance,

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algorithm bias, data privacy,

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security, and disinformation.

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Ami Fields-Meyer is an author,

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political strategist, and

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former White House senior policy

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advisor to Vice President Kamala

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Harris.

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He's a frequent commentator on

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issues of democracy and

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authoritarianism and has been quoted

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in the New York Times, NPR, and

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Politico.

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Our moderator tonight is Jessica

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Yellin, an Emmy and Peabody Award

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winning journalist and political

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correspondent who's reported from

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across the globe and interviewed

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U.S. Presidents Obama, Clinton,

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and George H.W.

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Bush.

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She now runs the independent News

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Not Noise digital news platform.

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After the discussion today,

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we'll have a chance to continue the

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conversation over some light

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refreshments in the courtyard where

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we'll also be selling books and Ami

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and Julia will be happy to sign them

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for you.

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I just wanna quickly mention some

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other upcoming programs we have.

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UCLA art historian Tiffany Barber

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is gonna host an after hours tour of

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our fantastic exhibition,

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Five Centuries of Works on Paper

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this Thursday at 6 p.m.

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And artist Danielle Dean will lead a

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tour of our Space is

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the Place exhibition next Wednesday.

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We're also kicking off our annual

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Jazz Pop concert series in the

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Hammer Courtyard on Thursday, August

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6th.

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And there are just three more weeks

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to see our exhibition,

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Several Eternities in a Day, which

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is totally groundbreaking and really

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incredible. So please do come back

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and make sure you see it.

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As always, museum admission is

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free and our public programs are

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also free.

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And if you want to stay updated,

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please sign up for our newsletter on

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our website or at the reception area

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after the program.

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So thank you all for joining us

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tonight and please join me in

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welcoming Julia Angwin, Ami

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Fields-Meyer and Jessica Yellen.

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Good evening. Is this on.

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Let's see, this is my hardest

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challenge.

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No, it is. There we go.

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Hi. Point it.

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Point it in its directional mic.

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It is such a pleasure to be here

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with both of you.

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I want to share a little bit about

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how I first learned about this book.

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I knew Julia from her

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body of work and her reputation and

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we were colleagues. And I said to

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her about a year and a half ago,

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I really want to understand right

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after Trump was elected how what are

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the best practices.

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For being a journalist and

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protecting yourself, protecting your

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tech, resisting, is

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there any, you seem like the person

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who might know and she's like, well,

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as it turns out, I'm writing a book

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about that.

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And it couldn't have been better

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timing, more relevant.

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I call this a darkly optimistic

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book with really

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practical tips for

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how to live today.

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So first of all, congratulations

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both of you on your success.

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Thank you. Thank you.

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Um.

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So let me start with you, Julia.

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Most people who are

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dissidents didn't set out to

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become dissidents.

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They didn't know it was going to

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happen.

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In all your research, you talk to

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these people all over the world,

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what makes most of these people move

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from, this is a terrible

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thing that's happening, to I'm

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going to do something about it?

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Yeah, is this working?

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Yes, okay Well, thank

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you so much, everyone, for coming

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on.

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We're so excited to be here.

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And I did want to actually start

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with your thing about safety and

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how to protect yourself, because

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that actually is the question that

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started me on this journey of

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writing the book, was I woke up the

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morning after the presidential

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election in 2024.

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And I thought, I've

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spent my whole life as an

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investigative reporter covering

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essentially to the harms of.

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Corporate big data, surveillance,

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et cetera.

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And I thought,

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oh, I haven't spent enough time

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thinking about what an authoritarian

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is gonna do with our data.

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So I called up Ami and

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I was like, let's call some

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dissidents around the world.

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He was at the Harvard Ash Center

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where dissidents often go to,

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after they've been exiled from their

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country.

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So we basically started

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interviewing. We interviewed more

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than 100 dissidents around the word.

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And what emerged

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was...

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Some themes that I think that maybe

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they themselves even hadn't

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necessarily thought about, but we

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would compare notes after our

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interviews and be like, oh, they all

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had certain things that they would

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tell us. And one of them was, they

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were like, I don't think of myself

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as courageous.

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And we were really surprised by that

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because they were describing really

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courageous things that they had

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done.

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What they described to us was, they

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said, I felt like I had

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no choice.

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I was weighing two

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fears. One was the fear.

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The very obvious fear that if

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I speak out, if I

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refuse to cooperate with the

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lawlessness and the corruption

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that are endemic to all

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authoritarian regimes, that I

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will. Face consequences, maybe I'll

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lose my job, maybe I'll be

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incarcerated, maybe I

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will lose my social standing,

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my mother will never speak to me

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again, whatever it will be, right?

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And those things were very

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real.

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But they described this other fear,

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and the fear was I won't

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be able to live with myself.

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I actually won't be

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myself, like I

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can't live with the consequences of

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being judged by my

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children by a higher power If

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I don't.

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Speak up. And so they saw

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it as having no choice.

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And it was really interesting.

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We call this in the book a moral

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collision that they all faced.

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And that that is how they

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ended up taking these really

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courageous actions without thinking

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that they were doing a courageous

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thing.

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I love it. Can I ask you a personal,

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about this question, what made you

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call Ami? How did this happen?

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I know, it is kind of.

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I wondered that too.

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We are an unlikely couple in

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the sense that I'm a journalist,

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Ami's a political strategist.

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And what happened was we

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were sort of in conversation because

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I mostly write about tech and

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tech policy.

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And Ami was doing

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tech policy for the administration.

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So we had been at AI conferences

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together.

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The last, the last minute, not this

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one.

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Important distinction.

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Yeah, important distinction.

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And when they were attempting to

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do tech policy of

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some kind.

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But I knew that Ami was

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at the center,

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the Ash Center, where all these

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dissidents were.

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So I knew he had basically access

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to the source material I was looking

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for. And I also knew that he

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and I had been talking about the

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fact that like there wasn't

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a lot of future.

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For the kind of work we've been

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doing. The idea that the

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government was going to come in and

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regulate tech was suddenly something

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that was not on either one of

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our wish lists at that moment.

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And so we had been sort of talking

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about, I mean, actually, what was it

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I texted you right after the

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election? I just texted you like

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one sentence. Thanks.

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I swear to God this

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is what Julia texted me.

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It was the day after the election.

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How will we go on?

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Thank you.

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I have the screenshot, I can show

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you the screenshot.

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It was kind of-

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I have a desperation mood, I guess.

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Worked out.

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We're going to go into specific

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stories and get really in the weeds,

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but I want to stay big picture for a

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moment, Ami. You're a political

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strategist.

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Would you help us just frame this

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conversation a little bit with,

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once people make the decision to

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act, what does a healthy civil

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resistance movement look like?

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And really, what separates

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effective movement organizing

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from just a bunch of angry people

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trying to do stuff?

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Yeah.

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My friend Rashad Robinson, who's

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a civil rights

288
00:09:05.360 --> 00:09:06.779
leader, actually came up with a book

289
00:09:06.780 --> 00:09:08.699
today, which I'm happy

290
00:09:08.700 --> 00:09:10.239
to plug. It's called From Presence

291
00:09:10.240 --> 00:09:11.139
to Power.

292
00:09:11.140 --> 00:09:12.799
And I was just reading it on the

293
00:09:12.800 --> 00:09:14.879
flight here today, and

294
00:09:14.880 --> 00:09:16.399
it makes this point really well,

295
00:09:16.400 --> 00:09:18.159
which is the premise of his book.

296
00:09:18.160 --> 00:09:19.199
I haven't finished it, so I can't

297
00:09:19.200 --> 00:09:20.139
tell you what the answer is.

298
00:09:20.140 --> 00:09:21.140
But the premise is.

299
00:09:23.050 --> 00:09:25.869
Being loud, being present,

300
00:09:25.870 --> 00:09:28.389
doesn't often translate,

301
00:09:28.390 --> 00:09:29.809
especially now when we're confused

302
00:09:29.810 --> 00:09:31.529
because we think that clicks mean a

303
00:09:31.530 --> 00:09:33.129
lot or likes mean a a lot.

304
00:09:33.130 --> 00:09:34.629
It takes a lot for that actually to

305
00:09:34.630 --> 00:09:36.089
translate into change, into material

306
00:09:36.090 --> 00:09:37.090
change.

307
00:09:37.730 --> 00:09:39.629
We, in our

308
00:09:39.630 --> 00:09:41.509
work, did

309
00:09:41.510 --> 00:09:42.419
a...

310
00:09:42.420 --> 00:09:44.539
A pretty deep dive

311
00:09:44.540 --> 00:09:45.519
into the political science

312
00:09:45.520 --> 00:09:47.259
literature on this question.

313
00:09:47.260 --> 00:09:49.359
And so the question is, why

314
00:09:49.360 --> 00:09:51.179
does a

315
00:09:51.180 --> 00:09:52.259
social movement succeed?

316
00:09:52.260 --> 00:09:53.479
Why does an anti-authoritarian

317
00:09:53.480 --> 00:09:55.319
movement succeed, what

318
00:09:55.320 --> 00:09:56.539
is the distinction between those

319
00:09:56.540 --> 00:09:57.740
that succeed and those that fail?

320
00:09:59.320 --> 00:10:00.109
And...

321
00:10:00.110 --> 00:10:02.129
One, I would say, incredibly

322
00:10:02.130 --> 00:10:04.069
salient statistic that

323
00:10:04.070 --> 00:10:06.749
we found in our reporting says

324
00:10:06.750 --> 00:10:08.909
that in democracies

325
00:10:08.910 --> 00:10:10.789
that begin backsliding, and that's

326
00:10:10.790 --> 00:10:12.209
what is happening in this country

327
00:10:12.210 --> 00:10:14.089
right now, backslidding out of

328
00:10:14.090 --> 00:10:15.229
democracy and into something more

329
00:10:15.230 --> 00:10:16.250
like authoritarianism,

330
00:10:17.590 --> 00:10:19.549
of the countries that

331
00:10:19.550 --> 00:10:21.069
do not have a civil resistance

332
00:10:21.070 --> 00:10:22.529
movement, and I'll define what that

333
00:10:22.530 --> 00:10:23.530
means in a second,

334
00:10:24.410 --> 00:10:27.069
7% of those countries are

335
00:10:27.070 --> 00:10:28.989
able to get out and come back

336
00:10:28.990 --> 00:10:30.139
to...

337
00:10:30.140 --> 00:10:31.140
To a full democracy.

338
00:10:33.280 --> 00:10:34.579
Those countries are the countries

339
00:10:34.580 --> 00:10:36.639
that only rely on the normative

340
00:10:36.640 --> 00:10:39.079
tools of democracy.

341
00:10:39.080 --> 00:10:41.079
That's elections and litigation

342
00:10:41.080 --> 00:10:44.979
and legislation and what we

343
00:10:44.980 --> 00:10:47.119
use as the general tools

344
00:10:47.120 --> 00:10:48.959
of what we've come to use in

345
00:10:48.960 --> 00:10:49.960
our democracy.

346
00:10:50.760 --> 00:10:52.819
Of the countries that use

347
00:10:52.820 --> 00:10:54.299
those tools but also use a civil

348
00:10:54.300 --> 00:10:56.079
resistance movement by which we mean

349
00:10:56.080 --> 00:10:58.799
strikes, boycotts.

350
00:10:58.800 --> 00:11:00.879
What we call in the book and what

351
00:11:00.880 --> 00:11:02.619
the movement scholar Maria Stephan

352
00:11:02.620 --> 00:11:04.619
calls collective stubbornness,

353
00:11:04.620 --> 00:11:06.559
which is to gum up the works, to

354
00:11:06.560 --> 00:11:09.039
just make it painful

355
00:11:09.040 --> 00:11:10.959
in what, non-violently

356
00:11:10.960 --> 00:11:12.659
make it harmful, to continue

357
00:11:12.660 --> 00:11:14.179
authoritarian behavior.

358
00:11:14.180 --> 00:11:15.839
Of the countries that begin

359
00:11:15.840 --> 00:11:17.819
backsliding and do those things,

360
00:11:17.820 --> 00:11:19.639
51% are able to get their

361
00:11:19.640 --> 00:11:21.479
democracy back. So still a

362
00:11:21.480 --> 00:11:23.459
jump ball, still a toss-up, but

363
00:11:23.460 --> 00:11:25.039
a major differential.

364
00:11:25.040 --> 00:11:26.899
And so this is what a lot of

365
00:11:26.900 --> 00:11:27.900
the book is about.

366
00:11:28.550 --> 00:11:30.829
We understand as people who

367
00:11:30.830 --> 00:11:32.289
come from the professional class.

368
00:11:33.970 --> 00:11:36.649
We are both college graduates.

369
00:11:36.650 --> 00:11:38.589
One of us has a graduate degree.

370
00:11:38.590 --> 00:11:39.589
Two, actually?

371
00:11:39.590 --> 00:11:40.909
You have like nine graduate degrees?

372
00:11:40.910 --> 00:11:43.329
OK. But...

373
00:11:43.330 --> 00:11:45.669
The incentives that we learn as

374
00:11:45.670 --> 00:11:47.669
people like us,

375
00:11:47.670 --> 00:11:49.729
risk is not really

376
00:11:49.730 --> 00:11:50.869
something that we learned how to do.

377
00:11:50.870 --> 00:11:52.769
Risk is

378
00:11:52.770 --> 00:11:55.189
very rarely incentivized.

379
00:11:55.190 --> 00:11:57.529
And so a lot of our book is about,

380
00:11:57.530 --> 00:11:59.169
if it turns out that getting in the

381
00:11:59.170 --> 00:12:00.989
way and taking

382
00:12:00.990 --> 00:12:02.789
risky action and putting yourself

383
00:12:02.790 --> 00:12:05.209
between you

384
00:12:05.210 --> 00:12:07.269
and decision makers and

385
00:12:07.270 --> 00:12:08.818
doing things that are uncomfortable,

386
00:12:08.819 --> 00:12:10.639
is the metric of success for

387
00:12:10.640 --> 00:12:11.759
movement, we needed to give people

388
00:12:11.760 --> 00:12:12.639
the tools to do that.

389
00:12:12.640 --> 00:12:13.779
And so a lot of the stories we tell

390
00:12:13.780 --> 00:12:15.679
are how people who are not used to

391
00:12:15.680 --> 00:12:17.039
this take risk anyway.

392
00:12:18.430 --> 00:12:19.609
Let's talk a little bit about

393
00:12:19.610 --> 00:12:20.610
timing.

394
00:12:21.630 --> 00:12:23.709
First of all, is there ever a right

395
00:12:23.710 --> 00:12:25.089
time to take action?

396
00:12:25.090 --> 00:12:27.049
How do you even know when it's

397
00:12:27.050 --> 00:12:28.229
the right moment?

398
00:12:28.230 --> 00:12:29.929
And did you ever interview people

399
00:12:29.930 --> 00:12:31.889
who said, actually, I

400
00:12:31.890 --> 00:12:32.890
waited too long?

401
00:12:34.390 --> 00:12:36.969
Yeah, I mean a lot of our

402
00:12:36.970 --> 00:12:38.469
interviews are really interesting

403
00:12:38.470 --> 00:12:39.889
because we talk to all these

404
00:12:39.890 --> 00:12:40.909
dissidents around the world and

405
00:12:40.910 --> 00:12:41.910
inside the US.

406
00:12:43.150 --> 00:12:44.529
And one thing that is important to

407
00:12:44.530 --> 00:12:46.729
note is that not

408
00:12:46.730 --> 00:12:49.009
everyone has won.

409
00:12:49.010 --> 00:12:50.849
So we're interviewing people who are

410
00:12:50.850 --> 00:12:52.689
in the process of winning, but

411
00:12:52.690 --> 00:12:53.970
maybe losing currently,

412
00:12:55.330 --> 00:12:57.429
or on the journey towards winning,

413
00:12:57.430 --> 00:12:58.889
or winning is temporary, and then

414
00:12:58.890 --> 00:13:00.029
they're about to lose again.

415
00:13:00.030 --> 00:13:01.909
So it's worth just noting

416
00:13:01.910 --> 00:13:03.849
that all of this advice comes

417
00:13:03.850 --> 00:13:05.889
on a continuum.

418
00:13:05.890 --> 00:13:07.849
But what they all told

419
00:13:07.850 --> 00:13:09.789
us is you have

420
00:13:09.790 --> 00:13:11.869
to start sooner than you think.

421
00:13:11.870 --> 00:13:14.469
That basically waiting

422
00:13:14.470 --> 00:13:16.809
too long for the perfect strategy

423
00:13:16.810 --> 00:13:18.809
is actually the enemy

424
00:13:18.810 --> 00:13:20.069
of this type of work.

425
00:13:20.070 --> 00:13:22.349
Because there's no perfect strategy.

426
00:13:22.350 --> 00:13:23.729
It turns out, like this is actually

427
00:13:23.730 --> 00:13:24.769
one of the things I was really sad

428
00:13:24.770 --> 00:13:26.509
about was I started this reporting

429
00:13:26.510 --> 00:13:27.469
thing and I was gonna find the

430
00:13:27.470 --> 00:13:28.689
perfect strategy for like keeping

431
00:13:28.690 --> 00:13:30.089
yourself safe. For instance, just

432
00:13:30.090 --> 00:13:31.269
something simple like that.

433
00:13:31.270 --> 00:13:32.729
OK, the right encryption and then

434
00:13:32.730 --> 00:13:34.189
the right this and the right that.

435
00:13:34.190 --> 00:13:35.710
And it turns out, like, no.

436
00:13:36.950 --> 00:13:39.629
It's layers upon layers of

437
00:13:39.630 --> 00:13:40.630
things.

438
00:13:41.490 --> 00:13:43.009
Because something is always going to

439
00:13:43.010 --> 00:13:45.009
fail. And so you

440
00:13:45.010 --> 00:13:46.829
think about a strategy like

441
00:13:46.830 --> 00:13:47.969
the man standing in front of the

442
00:13:47.970 --> 00:13:49.349
tank in Tiananmen Square.

443
00:13:49.350 --> 00:13:50.569
That didn't work.

444
00:13:50.570 --> 00:13:51.569
But then you think of the kids in

445
00:13:51.570 --> 00:13:53.029
Nepal who stood in front the tanks,

446
00:13:53.030 --> 00:13:54.069
and they overthrew the government.

447
00:13:54.070 --> 00:13:56.809
Right, so every tactic.

448
00:13:56.810 --> 00:13:58.849
Can work in one situation, not work

449
00:13:58.850 --> 00:13:59.929
in another.

450
00:13:59.930 --> 00:14:01.469
And so you have to be really

451
00:14:01.470 --> 00:14:03.789
flexible with your tactics and

452
00:14:03.790 --> 00:14:05.929
very rigid with your principles,

453
00:14:05.930 --> 00:14:07.849
meaning you have stand for some

454
00:14:07.850 --> 00:14:09.149
values. There's also something

455
00:14:09.150 --> 00:14:10.969
really important about the fact that

456
00:14:10.970 --> 00:14:13.349
it has to be a pro-democracy

457
00:14:13.350 --> 00:14:16.329
movement that wants democracy,

458
00:14:16.330 --> 00:14:18.409
right? If some people want a

459
00:14:18.410 --> 00:14:19.929
certain policy thing and then the

460
00:14:19.930 --> 00:14:20.729
other people want another policy

461
00:14:20.730 --> 00:14:21.689
thing, it's much harder.

462
00:14:21.690 --> 00:14:22.869
You have to have a very clear,

463
00:14:22.870 --> 00:14:24.169
simple goal.

464
00:14:24.170 --> 00:14:25.629
And then you have to try a whole

465
00:14:25.630 --> 00:14:28.009
bunch of things to see what sticks.

466
00:14:28.010 --> 00:14:30.129
And so it turned one of the

467
00:14:30.130 --> 00:14:32.109
projects of this book is to show

468
00:14:32.110 --> 00:14:34.049
all these different stories of

469
00:14:34.050 --> 00:14:35.489
people doing different types of

470
00:14:35.490 --> 00:14:36.989
things, to show that there's many

471
00:14:36.990 --> 00:14:38.509
ways to get involved in this

472
00:14:38.510 --> 00:14:40.509
movement, because it might

473
00:14:40.510 --> 00:14:42.369
look like standing in

474
00:14:42.370 --> 00:14:43.969
a protest, but it might like a

475
00:14:43.970 --> 00:14:45.569
boycott or it might look like

476
00:14:45.570 --> 00:14:47.909
writing an email to your boss.

477
00:14:47.910 --> 00:14:49.689
It can be quitting your job.

478
00:14:49.690 --> 00:14:50.749
Sometimes it can be quitting your

479
00:14:50.750 --> 00:14:51.909
job. It can be getting fired from

480
00:14:51.910 --> 00:14:52.969
your job

481
00:14:52.970 --> 00:14:54.909
It can also be staying in

482
00:14:54.910 --> 00:14:55.910
your job,

483
00:14:56.810 --> 00:14:58.909
which is more

484
00:14:58.910 --> 00:15:00.389
than one story that we tell in the

485
00:15:00.390 --> 00:15:02.809
book, are people who decide that

486
00:15:02.810 --> 00:15:04.629
they could quit and they could walk

487
00:15:04.630 --> 00:15:06.369
away, but remaining within the

488
00:15:06.370 --> 00:15:07.669
system, using the privilege that

489
00:15:07.670 --> 00:15:09.469
they have within the system, we talk

490
00:15:09.470 --> 00:15:11.309
about, we tell a story of a

491
00:15:11.310 --> 00:15:12.349
guy named Paulo Sadabe.

492
00:15:12.350 --> 00:15:13.429
We actually opened the book on a guy

493
00:15:13.430 --> 00:15:15.569
named Paulo sadabe, who

494
00:15:15.570 --> 00:15:17.489
was in the Department of Housing

495
00:15:17.490 --> 00:15:18.329
and Urban Development at the

496
00:15:18.330 --> 00:15:19.369
beginning of this administration

497
00:15:19.370 --> 00:15:21.429
when he As a civil rights

498
00:15:21.430 --> 00:15:23.149
lawyer, his job was to enforce the

499
00:15:23.150 --> 00:15:24.149
Fair Housing Act, which is the

500
00:15:24.150 --> 00:15:26.289
cornerstone of MLK's

501
00:15:26.290 --> 00:15:27.349
legacy.

502
00:15:27.350 --> 00:15:29.129
And he realized very quickly that

503
00:15:29.130 --> 00:15:30.329
this administration was not

504
00:15:30.330 --> 00:15:32.189
interested in

505
00:15:32.190 --> 00:15:33.589
enforcing civil rights law.

506
00:15:33.590 --> 00:15:34.589
And so as a result, there were going

507
00:15:34.590 --> 00:15:36.429
to be people who

508
00:15:36.430 --> 00:15:38.389
were all across

509
00:15:38.390 --> 00:15:40.309
the country going to become

510
00:15:40.310 --> 00:15:42.189
the victims of

511
00:15:42.190 --> 00:15:43.709
housing discrimination in one form

512
00:15:43.710 --> 00:15:44.749
or another.

513
00:15:44.750 --> 00:15:46.869
This put people in immediate risk

514
00:15:46.870 --> 00:15:48.409
for all kinds of reasons.

515
00:15:48.410 --> 00:15:49.869
And so he decided that instead of

516
00:15:49.870 --> 00:15:51.089
quitting, what he was gonna do was

517
00:15:51.090 --> 00:15:52.589
just start talking.

518
00:15:52.590 --> 00:15:54.029
And he began speaking publicly and

519
00:15:54.030 --> 00:15:55.469
speaking publicly and he went on TV

520
00:15:55.470 --> 00:15:57.009
and he notified Congress with a

521
00:15:57.010 --> 00:15:58.849
number of his friends and

522
00:15:58.850 --> 00:15:59.809
colleagues.

523
00:15:59.810 --> 00:16:01.269
And he was ultimately fired, but for

524
00:16:01.270 --> 00:16:03.689
a while he was able to use his

525
00:16:03.690 --> 00:16:04.829
being on the inside.

526
00:16:04.830 --> 00:16:06.309
But there are just as many people

527
00:16:06.310 --> 00:16:08.529
who we met who decided to walk away.

528
00:16:08.530 --> 00:16:10.549
And so we quote Leonard Cohen who

529
00:16:10.550 --> 00:16:12.450
says, forget your perfect offering.

530
00:16:13.729 --> 00:16:15.709
That's the real, the

531
00:16:15.710 --> 00:16:16.979
Jewish word is chedesh.

532
00:16:16.980 --> 00:16:18.218
What is it?

533
00:16:18.219 --> 00:16:19.559
It's like, I don't know why it's the

534
00:16:19.560 --> 00:16:20.599
word that just came to my head.

535
00:16:20.600 --> 00:16:22.499
Khedesh, which is like the new

536
00:16:22.500 --> 00:16:23.559
learning, the new teaching.

537
00:16:25.859 --> 00:16:27.199
I literally could not think of an

538
00:16:27.200 --> 00:16:28.299
English word for that at that

539
00:16:28.300 --> 00:16:29.300
moment.

540
00:16:29.750 --> 00:16:31.729
You guys, I got to say, working

541
00:16:31.730 --> 00:16:33.069
with Ami on this book was hilarious

542
00:16:33.070 --> 00:16:34.969
because they were like Hebrew

543
00:16:34.970 --> 00:16:36.869
phrases and rabbi quotes in

544
00:16:36.870 --> 00:16:37.969
every chapter.

545
00:16:37.970 --> 00:16:39.289
And I was like, we're gonna have to

546
00:16:39.290 --> 00:16:40.949
dial back this content like a little

547
00:16:40.950 --> 00:16:41.950
bit.

548
00:16:43.450 --> 00:16:45.569
I want to also just underscore that

549
00:16:45.570 --> 00:16:47.409
you also tell, you also make

550
00:16:47.410 --> 00:16:48.729
the point that it doesn't have to be

551
00:16:48.730 --> 00:16:50.069
going on TV and speaking out,

552
00:16:50.070 --> 00:16:51.629
staying in your job and writing your

553
00:16:51.630 --> 00:16:53.009
boss a note when they are doing

554
00:16:53.010 --> 00:16:55.189
something that's

555
00:16:55.190 --> 00:16:57.009
not violative of

556
00:16:57.010 --> 00:16:58.869
our democratic norms, sometimes

557
00:16:58.870 --> 00:17:00.249
can gum up the works too.

558
00:17:00.250 --> 00:17:02.289
Just being resistance in your role,

559
00:17:02.290 --> 00:17:02.639
yeah?

560
00:17:02.640 --> 00:17:03.959
Yeah, I mean, one thing we talk

561
00:17:03.960 --> 00:17:05.818
about a lot is that

562
00:17:05.819 --> 00:17:08.059
institutions are

563
00:17:08.060 --> 00:17:10.078
amoral by definition.

564
00:17:10.079 --> 00:17:11.879
Like institutions exist, especially

565
00:17:11.880 --> 00:17:13.939
in our capitalist system, mostly

566
00:17:13.940 --> 00:17:15.279
for profit. Sometimes they are

567
00:17:15.280 --> 00:17:17.459
mission driven nonprofits, but they

568
00:17:17.460 --> 00:17:19.578
their natural tendency

569
00:17:19.579 --> 00:17:20.979
is to align with power.

570
00:17:20.980 --> 00:17:22.799
Right. And so they need to be

571
00:17:22.800 --> 00:17:24.699
forced to act

572
00:17:24.700 --> 00:17:26.679
morally. And so often the role

573
00:17:26.680 --> 00:17:28.279
of people in who work at those

574
00:17:28.280 --> 00:17:30.099
places is to force their institution

575
00:17:30.100 --> 00:17:31.089
to be better.

576
00:17:31.090 --> 00:17:33.169
Than it would otherwise have been.

577
00:17:33.170 --> 00:17:34.409
And we tell a story in the book

578
00:17:34.410 --> 00:17:36.530
about this Rutgers professor.

579
00:17:37.630 --> 00:17:39.769
When he was a chemistry professor

580
00:17:39.770 --> 00:17:41.109
at Rutgers, not a political

581
00:17:41.110 --> 00:17:42.169
scientist, not a politically

582
00:17:42.170 --> 00:17:44.129
activist, but we saw what

583
00:17:44.130 --> 00:17:45.529
was happening to Columbia when the

584
00:17:45.530 --> 00:17:46.789
administration was coercing them

585
00:17:46.790 --> 00:17:48.629
into this agreement to basically

586
00:17:48.630 --> 00:17:50.869
try to control

587
00:17:50.870 --> 00:17:52.329
the curriculum.

588
00:17:52.330 --> 00:17:54.209
And he thought, oh my god, like this

589
00:17:54.210 --> 00:17:55.549
is gonna happen to my university,

590
00:17:55.550 --> 00:17:56.449
what should I do?

591
00:17:56.450 --> 00:17:58.789
So he actually just went to

592
00:17:58.790 --> 00:17:59.999
chat GPT and was like.

593
00:18:00.000 --> 00:18:01.719
How do I make a NATO for

594
00:18:01.720 --> 00:18:02.720
universities?

595
00:18:03.919 --> 00:18:06.979
And he got it

596
00:18:06.980 --> 00:18:08.839
to write up a little mutual aid

597
00:18:08.840 --> 00:18:11.099
defense compact for universities.

598
00:18:11.100 --> 00:18:13.159
He brought it to his university

599
00:18:13.160 --> 00:18:14.799
senate, which he was on.

600
00:18:14.800 --> 00:18:16.759
And he was like, hey,

601
00:18:16.760 --> 00:18:18.159
why don't we pass this thing where

602
00:18:18.160 --> 00:18:19.899
anyone in the Big Ten, which they're

603
00:18:19.900 --> 00:18:21.339
one of the Big 10 schools, we all

604
00:18:21.340 --> 00:18:22.439
defend each other if the

605
00:18:22.440 --> 00:18:24.019
administration comes after us.

606
00:18:24.020 --> 00:18:25.279
So the senate passed it.

607
00:18:25.280 --> 00:18:26.279
Then the other Big Ten schools

608
00:18:26.280 --> 00:18:27.659
passed it, a bunch of other schools

609
00:18:27.660 --> 00:18:29.099
passed It became a nationwide

610
00:18:29.100 --> 00:18:30.139
movement.

611
00:18:30.140 --> 00:18:31.759
Now, it's worth noting that those

612
00:18:31.760 --> 00:18:33.819
senates don't control, actually,

613
00:18:33.820 --> 00:18:35.079
the administration's behavior,

614
00:18:35.080 --> 00:18:36.359
right? The president doesn't have to

615
00:18:36.360 --> 00:18:37.719
do what the Senate says.

616
00:18:37.720 --> 00:18:38.739
Anyone who works on the university

617
00:18:38.740 --> 00:18:39.599
can tell you.

618
00:18:39.600 --> 00:18:41.539
Do they? Not so often.

619
00:18:41.540 --> 00:18:43.539
So this wasn't a thing

620
00:18:43.540 --> 00:18:45.319
that actually, like, forced the

621
00:18:45.320 --> 00:18:47.519
institution to be better, but it's

622
00:18:47.520 --> 00:18:48.919
not a coincidence that this

623
00:18:48.920 --> 00:18:51.179
nationwide faculty movement

624
00:18:51.180 --> 00:18:53.339
happened, and then the next round

625
00:18:53.340 --> 00:18:55.459
of letters that the administration

626
00:18:55.460 --> 00:18:57.499
sent that fall to

627
00:18:57.500 --> 00:18:59.139
universities not a single one

628
00:18:59.140 --> 00:19:01.129
complied. Because pressure from

629
00:19:01.130 --> 00:19:03.049
below and pressure from above,

630
00:19:03.050 --> 00:19:04.409
right? They meet in the middle.

631
00:19:04.410 --> 00:19:06.189
And so part of the role of staying

632
00:19:06.190 --> 00:19:08.229
in an institution is to put that

633
00:19:08.230 --> 00:19:10.229
pressure below so that they don't

634
00:19:10.230 --> 00:19:11.069
kick.

635
00:19:11.070 --> 00:19:13.049
Set an expectation that they're

636
00:19:13.050 --> 00:19:14.609
scared to violate.

637
00:19:14.610 --> 00:19:16.489
Ami, what do people who have

638
00:19:16.490 --> 00:19:18.069
lived through authoritarianism

639
00:19:18.070 --> 00:19:20.169
understand about it that Americans

640
00:19:20.170 --> 00:19:22.069
still tend to not appreciate?

641
00:19:23.140 --> 00:19:24.979
Well, when we started this

642
00:19:24.980 --> 00:19:25.980
reporting,

643
00:19:28.340 --> 00:19:29.359
at the beginning of the Trump

644
00:19:29.360 --> 00:19:30.899
administration, we really started,

645
00:19:30.900 --> 00:19:32.259
as Julia said, just by picking up

646
00:19:32.260 --> 00:19:33.720
the phone and calling people

647
00:19:34.860 --> 00:19:36.779
who either are or, for

648
00:19:36.780 --> 00:19:38.379
the most part, have left

649
00:19:38.380 --> 00:19:39.719
authoritarian regimes.

650
00:19:39.720 --> 00:19:41.819
And we said, we need advice, and

651
00:19:41.820 --> 00:19:43.379
how do we stay safe, and how we save

652
00:19:43.380 --> 00:19:44.239
our democracy?

653
00:19:44.240 --> 00:19:46.559
And really, at the begining,

654
00:19:46.560 --> 00:19:48.379
most of them actually

655
00:19:48.380 --> 00:19:50.459
literally laughed at us, because

656
00:19:50.460 --> 00:19:51.740
they were like, OK.

657
00:19:52.810 --> 00:19:54.289
These, this is cute.

658
00:19:54.290 --> 00:19:55.389
These two Americans who have

659
00:19:55.390 --> 00:19:57.169
suddenly have an interest in our

660
00:19:57.170 --> 00:19:58.170
struggles.

661
00:19:59.590 --> 00:20:00.989
That's very sweet.

662
00:20:00.990 --> 00:20:02.729
And so that was like, we started

663
00:20:02.730 --> 00:20:05.529
January 20th, 2025.

664
00:20:05.530 --> 00:20:07.569
I would say by March

665
00:20:07.570 --> 00:20:10.709
20th that

666
00:20:10.710 --> 00:20:12.489
had stopped.

667
00:20:12.490 --> 00:20:14.509
And they were giving us advice

668
00:20:14.510 --> 00:20:15.749
and basically saying like, write

669
00:20:15.750 --> 00:20:17.469
this down. You're gonna need this.

670
00:20:17.470 --> 00:20:18.949
And what had happened in that month

671
00:20:18.950 --> 00:20:20.449
or so, first couple months of the

672
00:20:20.450 --> 00:20:21.689
administration and obviously it was.

673
00:20:24.210 --> 00:20:25.709
We began to see the administration

674
00:20:25.710 --> 00:20:27.609
make good on its promises for mass

675
00:20:27.610 --> 00:20:29.209
deportation efforts.

676
00:20:29.210 --> 00:20:31.129
We began see roundups of

677
00:20:31.130 --> 00:20:33.049
student protesters and other

678
00:20:33.050 --> 00:20:35.949
academics at universities for

679
00:20:35.950 --> 00:20:37.989
exercising what courts

680
00:20:37.990 --> 00:20:40.189
ultimately would

681
00:20:40.190 --> 00:20:42.089
declare, would articulate as

682
00:20:42.090 --> 00:20:43.090
their First Amendment rights.

683
00:20:44.070 --> 00:20:45.709
And it just felt different.

684
00:20:45.710 --> 00:20:48.029
And so once they

685
00:20:48.030 --> 00:20:49.549
started hearing the echoes and

686
00:20:49.550 --> 00:20:52.229
seeing the shadows of what

687
00:20:52.230 --> 00:20:53.129
they had gone through and what we

688
00:20:53.130 --> 00:20:54.309
were going through.

689
00:20:54.310 --> 00:20:55.769
The tenor of the conversation's

690
00:20:55.770 --> 00:20:56.709
chance.

691
00:20:56.710 --> 00:20:58.209
I will say one thing about

692
00:20:58.210 --> 00:21:00.029
authoritarianism,

693
00:21:00.030 --> 00:21:02.209
which is that authoritarianism looks

694
00:21:02.210 --> 00:21:04.149
different now than it used

695
00:21:04.150 --> 00:21:05.409
to. It's not your grandmother's

696
00:21:05.410 --> 00:21:06.349
authoritarianism.

697
00:21:06.350 --> 00:21:08.189
This is, or now that

698
00:21:08.190 --> 00:21:09.249
I've said Keresh, it's not you

699
00:21:09.250 --> 00:21:11.089
booby's authoritarian.

700
00:21:11.090 --> 00:21:12.349
You're not joking

701
00:21:14.909 --> 00:21:15.909
It was a journey

702
00:21:19.070 --> 00:21:20.309
I'll see if I can find another one

703
00:21:20.310 --> 00:21:21.310
to add.

704
00:21:22.149 --> 00:21:23.109
This authoritarianism looks

705
00:21:23.110 --> 00:21:24.429
different. And I think this is a

706
00:21:24.430 --> 00:21:25.709
really important question because it

707
00:21:25.710 --> 00:21:27.029
doesn't look like what it used to

708
00:21:27.030 --> 00:21:27.949
look like. It doesn't ride into town

709
00:21:27.950 --> 00:21:29.109
on the back of a coup in the same

710
00:21:29.110 --> 00:21:31.329
way. This authoritarian ism comes in

711
00:21:31.330 --> 00:21:32.330
through elections.

712
00:21:33.550 --> 00:21:35.389
It's the slow, gradual

713
00:21:35.390 --> 00:21:36.749
hollowing out of democratic

714
00:21:36.750 --> 00:21:39.709
institutions. It's courts continuing

715
00:21:39.710 --> 00:21:41.249
to function but being packed with

716
00:21:41.250 --> 00:21:42.969
loyalists. It's media continuing to

717
00:21:42.970 --> 00:21:44.949
functioning but being

718
00:21:44.950 --> 00:21:46.769
tilted and slanted in the direction

719
00:21:46.770 --> 00:21:47.939
of power.

720
00:21:47.940 --> 00:21:49.499
It's elections continuing to happen,

721
00:21:49.500 --> 00:21:51.259
but becoming less free and less

722
00:21:51.260 --> 00:21:52.260
fair.

723
00:21:55.940 --> 00:21:57.899
What people from these places

724
00:21:57.900 --> 00:22:00.020
like Venezuela and Hungary

725
00:22:02.080 --> 00:22:04.019
and Nicaragua and other parts of the

726
00:22:04.020 --> 00:22:05.859
world can tell us

727
00:22:05.860 --> 00:22:07.859
and can teach us is to spot

728
00:22:07.860 --> 00:22:09.739
this even in this new

729
00:22:09.740 --> 00:22:11.839
form and

730
00:22:11.840 --> 00:22:13.139
to intervene early.

731
00:22:13.140 --> 00:22:14.979
Because the downside of

732
00:22:14.980 --> 00:22:16.019
what I've just described is that

733
00:22:16.020 --> 00:22:17.999
it's not as shocking

734
00:22:18.000 --> 00:22:19.259
because it happens gradually, but

735
00:22:19.260 --> 00:22:21.119
the upside of what is described is

736
00:22:21.120 --> 00:22:22.859
that because it happened gradually,

737
00:22:22.860 --> 00:22:24.329
there are off ramps.

738
00:22:24.330 --> 00:22:25.449
And so what we learn from a place

739
00:22:25.450 --> 00:22:27.469
like Hungary, for example,

740
00:22:27.470 --> 00:22:29.929
is to take the off-ramps.

741
00:22:29.930 --> 00:22:31.709
Can you imagine what just happened

742
00:22:31.710 --> 00:22:32.869
in Hungary?

743
00:22:32.870 --> 00:22:34.349
A massive election with people taken

744
00:22:34.350 --> 00:22:35.450
to the streets,

745
00:22:37.170 --> 00:22:39.129
publicly voting, a campaign

746
00:22:39.130 --> 00:22:40.989
happening in Russia?

747
00:22:40.990 --> 00:22:42.529
Can't happen in Russia.

748
00:22:42.530 --> 00:22:43.710
Too many people have been disappeared.

749
00:22:45.610 --> 00:22:47.369
Too many have gone to prison.

750
00:22:47.370 --> 00:22:48.489
Too many of people have gone the

751
00:22:48.490 --> 00:22:50.949
virtual gulag, essentially.

752
00:22:50.950 --> 00:22:52.749
Too many had been murdered in cold

753
00:22:52.750 --> 00:22:54.450
blood. And people know it's Putin.

754
00:22:55.650 --> 00:22:57.469
That hadn't happened yet in

755
00:22:57.470 --> 00:22:58.470
Hungary.

756
00:22:58.970 --> 00:23:00.669
What I just described had happened,

757
00:23:00.670 --> 00:23:02.049
but that had not.

758
00:23:02.050 --> 00:23:03.890
And so while we still can,

759
00:23:05.090 --> 00:23:06.629
what these dissidents teach us is

760
00:23:06.630 --> 00:23:07.789
that we have to take the off-ramp

761
00:23:07.790 --> 00:23:10.709
and we have act expeditiously,

762
00:23:10.710 --> 00:23:12.529
even when it feels like we've got

763
00:23:12.530 --> 00:23:13.449
time.

764
00:23:13.450 --> 00:23:14.969
Let's stay on Hungary, and I want to

765
00:23:14.970 --> 00:23:15.970
ask this of you, Ami.

766
00:23:17.070 --> 00:23:18.149
What did they do?

767
00:23:18.150 --> 00:23:19.129
What worked there?

768
00:23:19.130 --> 00:23:20.369
And one of the things I just would

769
00:23:20.370 --> 00:23:22.349
like you to talk about is they

770
00:23:22.350 --> 00:23:24.289
had an unusual coalition.

771
00:23:24.290 --> 00:23:26.289
And the ultimate leader

772
00:23:26.290 --> 00:23:29.329
is a right-wing figure.

773
00:23:29.330 --> 00:23:31.309
So what can we

774
00:23:31.310 --> 00:23:32.329
learn from their lessons of

775
00:23:32.330 --> 00:23:34.410
coalition and from their success?

776
00:23:35.560 --> 00:23:37.679
Yeah, this is exactly,

777
00:23:37.680 --> 00:23:39.379
I think there are a couple of

778
00:23:39.380 --> 00:23:40.559
things. So let's just take a step

779
00:23:40.560 --> 00:23:41.880
back on Hungry for one second.

780
00:23:44.350 --> 00:23:45.469
You guys all know everything about

781
00:23:45.470 --> 00:23:46.650
Hungarian politics, right?

782
00:23:48.580 --> 00:23:50.179
Give us a two cents cracker.

783
00:23:52.700 --> 00:23:55.079
Hungary has had elections.

784
00:23:56.140 --> 00:23:57.999
Hungary is a, it's different

785
00:23:58.000 --> 00:23:59.059
than the United States in their

786
00:23:59.060 --> 00:23:59.919
checks and balances.

787
00:23:59.920 --> 00:24:00.999
They don't have the same sort of

788
00:24:01.000 --> 00:24:01.999
system of checks and balance that we

789
00:24:02.000 --> 00:24:04.020
do. And it's a parliamentary system.

790
00:24:05.320 --> 00:24:07.199
But Victor Orban, who was

791
00:24:07.200 --> 00:24:09.199
a right wing guy who

792
00:24:09.200 --> 00:24:11.119
articulated a vision for what he

793
00:24:11.120 --> 00:24:13.519
called, he called illiberal

794
00:24:13.520 --> 00:24:14.520
democracy.

795
00:24:16.550 --> 00:24:17.670
Which you can Google,

796
00:24:19.230 --> 00:24:20.369
was elected 16 years ago.

797
00:24:20.370 --> 00:24:22.549
He had been in power for 16

798
00:24:22.550 --> 00:24:23.550
years.

799
00:24:25.150 --> 00:24:26.589
And people were sick of this.

800
00:24:27.670 --> 00:24:29.529
Julia should say a few more

801
00:24:29.530 --> 00:24:32.209
words on this, but the

802
00:24:32.210 --> 00:24:34.249
number one thing to know

803
00:24:34.250 --> 00:24:35.589
about this government was that it

804
00:24:35.590 --> 00:24:36.609
was corrupt.

805
00:24:36.610 --> 00:24:37.889
Authoritarianism often is

806
00:24:37.890 --> 00:24:38.890
corruption.

807
00:24:39.870 --> 00:24:41.689
They're stealing your rights,

808
00:24:41.690 --> 00:24:42.829
and they're stealing your money.

809
00:24:42.830 --> 00:24:43.830
And

810
00:24:45.060 --> 00:24:46.439
I would say two things, Jessica, to

811
00:24:46.440 --> 00:24:47.559
this question.

812
00:24:47.560 --> 00:24:49.719
What did the Hungarian opposition

813
00:24:49.720 --> 00:24:50.519
do well?

814
00:24:50.520 --> 00:24:51.780
So it was a right-wing figure, this

815
00:24:51.781 --> 00:24:54.419
guy, Peter Mayer, who came out of

816
00:24:54.420 --> 00:24:55.959
Viktor Orban's own party,

817
00:24:57.660 --> 00:24:59.160
out of scandal, actually,

818
00:25:00.220 --> 00:25:04.199
and leveled

819
00:25:04.200 --> 00:25:06.619
an indictment at

820
00:25:06.620 --> 00:25:08.579
Orban that was almost entirely

821
00:25:08.580 --> 00:25:10.019
focused on corruption.

822
00:25:10.020 --> 00:25:11.619
They are stealing your money.

823
00:25:11.620 --> 00:25:12.999
Look at the palaces that they're

824
00:25:13.000 --> 00:25:15.829
living in. Look at the

825
00:25:15.830 --> 00:25:17.769
wealth and the opulence of the

826
00:25:17.770 --> 00:25:20.169
lives of your leaders while you're

827
00:25:20.170 --> 00:25:21.309
suffering and struggling.

828
00:25:21.310 --> 00:25:22.430
That was the message.

829
00:25:23.530 --> 00:25:24.829
So that's the proactive piece.

830
00:25:24.830 --> 00:25:27.309
The other piece is that

831
00:25:27.310 --> 00:25:29.129
the coalition, because

832
00:25:29.130 --> 00:25:30.969
the message was not about the

833
00:25:30.970 --> 00:25:32.549
fine-grained policy points, it

834
00:25:32.550 --> 00:25:34.289
wasn't about the specifics of what

835
00:25:34.290 --> 00:25:36.209
would happen if

836
00:25:36.210 --> 00:25:37.650
this new government was elected.

837
00:25:38.710 --> 00:25:40.579
The message was no.

838
00:25:40.580 --> 00:25:41.919
Like, that was the message.

839
00:25:41.920 --> 00:25:43.219
You didn't have to get everybody on

840
00:25:43.220 --> 00:25:44.639
board this, like, complex policy

841
00:25:44.640 --> 00:25:45.719
message. You just had to get people

842
00:25:45.720 --> 00:25:47.919
on board one very, very

843
00:25:47.920 --> 00:25:49.679
easy, very simple, low-threshold

844
00:25:49.680 --> 00:25:51.339
thing, which was, we're done with

845
00:25:51.340 --> 00:25:53.119
Orban. And that was something that a

846
00:25:53.120 --> 00:25:55.559
huge swath of society could

847
00:25:55.560 --> 00:25:56.439
agree on.

848
00:25:56.440 --> 00:25:57.739
You had everyone from, like

849
00:25:57.740 --> 00:25:59.839
purple-haired college students in

850
00:25:59.840 --> 00:26:01.699
Budapest to,

851
00:26:01.700 --> 00:26:03.179
you know, functionally, the

852
00:26:03.180 --> 00:26:05.839
equivalent of MAGA farmers

853
00:26:05.840 --> 00:26:07.019
function, you know in the

854
00:26:07.020 --> 00:26:08.919
countryside, who all voted for

855
00:26:08.920 --> 00:26:10.009
the same person.

856
00:26:10.010 --> 00:26:11.689
And I think this is actually the

857
00:26:11.690 --> 00:26:13.489
tough medicine to swallow for the

858
00:26:13.490 --> 00:26:15.489
American left, which is that

859
00:26:15.490 --> 00:26:17.449
the person that they

860
00:26:17.450 --> 00:26:18.669
all rallied behind, that this

861
00:26:18.670 --> 00:26:19.769
coalition was able to mobilize

862
00:26:19.770 --> 00:26:22.669
behind, was the equivalent,

863
00:26:22.670 --> 00:26:24.249
everyone remember from the

864
00:26:24.250 --> 00:26:26.969
purple-haired person all the way on,

865
00:26:26.970 --> 00:26:27.970
was Liz Cheney.

866
00:26:30.290 --> 00:26:32.149
And after 16

867
00:26:32.150 --> 00:26:33.650
years, people were like...

868
00:26:34.689 --> 00:26:35.689
Fuck it.

869
00:26:36.969 --> 00:26:37.969
Bring it.

870
00:26:39.550 --> 00:26:41.149
It's so inspiring that this happened

871
00:26:41.150 --> 00:26:42.449
in Hungary in the end.

872
00:26:42.450 --> 00:26:43.769
I want to ask you about Minnesota,

873
00:26:43.770 --> 00:26:44.829
but is there anything else you want

874
00:26:44.830 --> 00:26:46.589
to add on about Hungary?

875
00:26:46.590 --> 00:26:46.969
I want add to that.

876
00:26:46.970 --> 00:26:48.189
Just one thing about Hungary, which

877
00:26:48.190 --> 00:26:50.029
is the importance of the media

878
00:26:50.030 --> 00:26:51.329
and journalism. And I say this

879
00:26:51.330 --> 00:26:53.269
self-interestedly as a journalist,

880
00:26:53.270 --> 00:26:55.229
but also self-interestedly

881
00:26:55.230 --> 00:26:56.669
on your behalf, which it's really

882
00:26:56.670 --> 00:26:57.789
about independent media.

883
00:26:58.830 --> 00:27:00.409
And independent media like you, who

884
00:27:00.410 --> 00:27:02.209
run News Not Noise, if you guys

885
00:27:02.210 --> 00:27:04.349
don't already all know, subscribe

886
00:27:04.350 --> 00:27:05.630
on Substack,

887
00:27:07.030 --> 00:27:08.549
is really important.

888
00:27:08.550 --> 00:27:10.869
Because one of the problems was,

889
00:27:10.870 --> 00:27:12.529
Peter Magyar could not get onto...

890
00:27:12.530 --> 00:27:14.089
State TV never showed him.

891
00:27:14.090 --> 00:27:15.789
He was not allowed on any...

892
00:27:15.790 --> 00:27:18.129
Broadcast on any radio because

893
00:27:18.130 --> 00:27:19.889
Orban had fully censored the

894
00:27:19.890 --> 00:27:21.189
opposition.

895
00:27:21.190 --> 00:27:22.949
But there were a few outlets that

896
00:27:22.950 --> 00:27:25.109
hung on, even though

897
00:27:25.110 --> 00:27:27.089
Orban criminalized essentially their

898
00:27:27.090 --> 00:27:28.549
ability to raise any money or sell

899
00:27:28.550 --> 00:27:29.849
any ads. So they were just sort of

900
00:27:29.850 --> 00:27:31.390
like these threadbare operations.

901
00:27:32.410 --> 00:27:35.309
But Direct 36, this YouTube channel,

902
00:27:35.310 --> 00:27:37.489
had this huge documentary about

903
00:27:37.490 --> 00:27:38.949
Orban and his children and how

904
00:27:38.950 --> 00:27:41.049
they'd enriched themselves at

905
00:27:41.050 --> 00:27:42.809
the expense of the Hungarian ...

906
00:27:42.810 --> 00:27:44.749
People whose standard of living

907
00:27:44.750 --> 00:27:47.009
had been declining for 16 years.

908
00:27:47.010 --> 00:27:48.889
And that really made the

909
00:27:48.890 --> 00:27:50.849
huge difference. And so I think it's

910
00:27:50.850 --> 00:27:52.869
really important to know that the

911
00:27:52.870 --> 00:27:55.089
fight in fighting

912
00:27:55.090 --> 00:27:56.609
against authoritarianism is a

913
00:27:56.610 --> 00:27:57.389
narrative war.

914
00:27:57.390 --> 00:27:59.289
It's about how to

915
00:27:59.290 --> 00:28:01.649
convince people that they

916
00:28:01.650 --> 00:28:02.509
should be on your side.

917
00:28:02.510 --> 00:28:04.149
Because the authoritarian can't do

918
00:28:04.150 --> 00:28:05.549
all their lawlessness and corruption

919
00:28:05.550 --> 00:28:07.869
without basically everyone

920
00:28:07.870 --> 00:28:09.409
agreeing to it.

921
00:28:09.410 --> 00:28:10.789
Like you have to comply.

922
00:28:11.800 --> 00:28:13.679
We have to all be willing to turn

923
00:28:13.680 --> 00:28:15.579
a look away while they

924
00:28:15.580 --> 00:28:17.579
incarcerate people who, they

925
00:28:17.580 --> 00:28:18.719
tell us it's their fault.

926
00:28:18.720 --> 00:28:19.859
Those are the ones who took your

927
00:28:19.860 --> 00:28:20.679
rights and your money.

928
00:28:20.680 --> 00:28:22.419
It's always some other people that

929
00:28:22.420 --> 00:28:23.979
supposedly took all that stuff.

930
00:28:23.980 --> 00:28:26.099
And so to get people

931
00:28:26.100 --> 00:28:27.779
to comply, you have to sell your

932
00:28:27.780 --> 00:28:29.319
message, which is why authoritarian

933
00:28:29.320 --> 00:28:30.979
projects are always about capturing

934
00:28:30.980 --> 00:28:33.119
the media first, right?

935
00:28:33.120 --> 00:28:35.299
Project one, two, and three is

936
00:28:35.300 --> 00:28:36.579
capture the media.

937
00:28:36.580 --> 00:28:37.679
And that's what Orban did

938
00:28:37.680 --> 00:28:38.779
immediately when he took over.

939
00:28:38.780 --> 00:28:40.279
He took over all of the state media,

940
00:28:40.280 --> 00:28:42.139
Putin the same.

941
00:28:42.140 --> 00:28:43.479
Although Putin likes to poison

942
00:28:43.480 --> 00:28:45.199
people first and then take over,

943
00:28:45.200 --> 00:28:47.439
it's a special flavor of

944
00:28:47.440 --> 00:28:49.339
authoritarianism.

945
00:28:49.340 --> 00:28:50.359
But.

946
00:28:50.360 --> 00:28:52.179
It's important to know that, because

947
00:28:52.180 --> 00:28:54.699
we're in that project here.

948
00:28:54.700 --> 00:28:56.239
And one thing I feel strongly about

949
00:28:56.240 --> 00:28:57.839
is that reader-supported

950
00:28:57.840 --> 00:28:59.219
publications like yours are the

951
00:28:59.220 --> 00:29:01.579
hardest to capture, because there's

952
00:29:01.580 --> 00:29:03.799
no corporate overlord to buy out,

953
00:29:03.800 --> 00:29:05.939
and there's no donors to

954
00:29:05.940 --> 00:29:06.819
scare off.

955
00:29:06.820 --> 00:29:08.699
And so I think it's really important

956
00:29:08.700 --> 00:29:10.759
to remember that we all support

957
00:29:10.760 --> 00:29:12.079
independent media, because they've

958
00:29:12.080 --> 00:29:13.679
always been the bulwark against

959
00:29:13.680 --> 00:29:14.839
authoritarian regimes.

960
00:29:14.840 --> 00:29:16.059
That was a paid advertisement.

961
00:29:16.060 --> 00:29:16.100
Thank you.

962
00:29:16.101 --> 00:29:17.639
Thank you. That was a great ad.

963
00:29:17.640 --> 00:29:18.739
Thank you!

964
00:29:18.740 --> 00:29:19.919
Also the bulwark.

965
00:29:19.920 --> 00:29:20.939
I highly recommend.

966
00:29:20.940 --> 00:29:22.599
But that's why Mayor, when he won,

967
00:29:22.600 --> 00:29:24.379
right away went on state TV and

968
00:29:24.380 --> 00:29:26.319
fired the anchor live on television.

969
00:29:26.320 --> 00:29:28.179
That was so satisfying,

970
00:29:28.180 --> 00:29:29.180
right?

971
00:29:29.920 --> 00:29:32.099
Also satisfying, I have to say, was

972
00:29:32.100 --> 00:29:33.779
Minnesota. Because one of the things

973
00:29:33.780 --> 00:29:35.739
that I've personally found

974
00:29:35.740 --> 00:29:37.659
surprising is

975
00:29:37.660 --> 00:29:39.419
the degree to which Americans have

976
00:29:39.420 --> 00:29:40.899
just accepted what has been

977
00:29:40.900 --> 00:29:43.299
happening, that there has not been.

978
00:29:43.300 --> 00:29:45.699
That level of organized resistance

979
00:29:45.700 --> 00:29:47.939
that we, for example, had seen,

980
00:29:47.940 --> 00:29:49.179
I don't know, even in George Floyd

981
00:29:49.180 --> 00:29:50.859
days. But when ICE went to

982
00:29:50.860 --> 00:29:52.719
Minnesota, Trump picked the

983
00:29:52.720 --> 00:29:53.720
wrong state.

984
00:29:54.580 --> 00:29:56.519
And people organized and

985
00:29:56.520 --> 00:29:57.839
it was effective.

986
00:29:57.840 --> 00:30:00.059
What did they do that worked?

987
00:30:00.060 --> 00:30:01.899
And how did they, did they

988
00:30:01.900 --> 00:30:02.679
plan that?

989
00:30:02.680 --> 00:30:04.259
Were there leaders?

990
00:30:04.260 --> 00:30:05.419
Tell us about the Minnesota

991
00:30:05.420 --> 00:30:06.119
experience.

992
00:30:06.120 --> 00:30:07.959
Well, first of all, I want to

993
00:30:07.960 --> 00:30:09.739
say there's been a lot of great

994
00:30:09.740 --> 00:30:11.339
organizing going on in Los Angeles

995
00:30:11.340 --> 00:30:12.500
also, sorry

996
00:30:13.720 --> 00:30:15.799
and in Chicago and

997
00:30:15.800 --> 00:30:17.839
a lot places and so

998
00:30:17.840 --> 00:30:19.659
Minnesota But

999
00:30:19.660 --> 00:30:21.239
Minnesota has become like this sort

1000
00:30:21.240 --> 00:30:23.079
of canonical example that is worth

1001
00:30:23.080 --> 00:30:25.019
talking about but the lessons

1002
00:30:25.020 --> 00:30:26.879
are the same Which is

1003
00:30:26.880 --> 00:30:28.819
it's really really important

1004
00:30:28.820 --> 00:30:30.899
for the

1005
00:30:30.900 --> 00:30:33.439
resistance to be nonviolent.

1006
00:30:33.440 --> 00:30:35.459
It's the absolutely most important

1007
00:30:35.460 --> 00:30:36.899
thing. The data shows that

1008
00:30:36.900 --> 00:30:38.699
nonviolent resistance movements are

1009
00:30:38.700 --> 00:30:40.619
twice as successful as

1010
00:30:40.620 --> 00:30:41.879
those that employ violence.

1011
00:30:41.880 --> 00:30:43.899
And we have seen that they will take

1012
00:30:43.900 --> 00:30:45.759
any excuse, any tiny little

1013
00:30:45.760 --> 00:30:47.619
bit of violence, and use it to

1014
00:30:47.620 --> 00:30:48.979
tar the entire movement.

1015
00:30:48.980 --> 00:30:50.819
And as I said earlier, this is a

1016
00:30:50.820 --> 00:30:51.799
narrative war.

1017
00:30:51.800 --> 00:30:53.539
What you're trying to win when

1018
00:30:53.540 --> 00:30:54.559
you're fighting against an

1019
00:30:54.560 --> 00:30:56.119
authoritarian regime is all the

1020
00:30:56.120 --> 00:30:58.439
people who are not paying attention.

1021
00:30:58.440 --> 00:31:00.179
They're just like doing their life.

1022
00:31:00.180 --> 00:31:01.479
They're trying to ignore what's

1023
00:31:01.480 --> 00:31:02.939
happening and just hope it goes

1024
00:31:02.940 --> 00:31:03.719
away.

1025
00:31:03.720 --> 00:31:05.859
And you need them to actually be

1026
00:31:05.860 --> 00:31:07.239
on your side, right?

1027
00:31:07.240 --> 00:31:08.619
It's a numbers game.

1028
00:31:08.620 --> 00:31:10.139
Because there just has to be an

1029
00:31:10.140 --> 00:31:11.599
overwhelming force, right.

1030
00:31:11.600 --> 00:31:13.659
You have to have so many people.

1031
00:31:13.660 --> 00:31:15.479
Wait, Orban was swept out because it

1032
00:31:15.480 --> 00:31:16.759
wasn't just a tiny win.

1033
00:31:16.760 --> 00:31:19.139
It was a landslide victory.

1034
00:31:19.140 --> 00:31:20.619
And that's what it takes to get an

1035
00:31:20.620 --> 00:31:21.739
authoritarian out. They're not gonna

1036
00:31:21.740 --> 00:31:24.079
walk out on a, you know,

1037
00:31:24.080 --> 00:31:25.379
hanging Chad situation.

1038
00:31:25.380 --> 00:31:27.499
So,

1039
00:31:27.500 --> 00:31:29.439
Um, so basically you

1040
00:31:29.440 --> 00:31:31.379
have to have nonviolence

1041
00:31:31.380 --> 00:31:32.619
and you have to have some discipline

1042
00:31:32.620 --> 00:31:34.099
around that nonviolance in

1043
00:31:34.100 --> 00:31:35.539
organizing. And that was what was so

1044
00:31:35.540 --> 00:31:37.139
impressive in Minnesota in

1045
00:31:37.140 --> 00:31:38.579
particular, because they were faced

1046
00:31:38.580 --> 00:31:40.579
with such horrible state

1047
00:31:40.580 --> 00:31:41.639
violence.

1048
00:31:41.640 --> 00:31:43.439
But what was interesting about it

1049
00:31:43.440 --> 00:31:45.619
was that they

1050
00:31:45.620 --> 00:31:47.499
maintained their discipline, did not

1051
00:31:47.500 --> 00:31:49.619
respond violently and thus

1052
00:31:49.620 --> 00:31:51.539
won the narrative war.

1053
00:31:51.540 --> 00:31:53.479
Because ICE had to leave after

1054
00:31:53.480 --> 00:31:55.499
they killed two people in cold blood

1055
00:31:55.500 --> 00:31:57.279
on camera.

1056
00:31:57.280 --> 00:31:58.279
They couldn't stay.

1057
00:31:58.280 --> 00:31:59.739
They had lost the public.

1058
00:31:59.740 --> 00:32:01.599
They had the lost the narrative war.

1059
00:32:01.600 --> 00:32:02.719
Now, that doesn't mean they're not

1060
00:32:02.720 --> 00:32:03.839
still out there doing bad things

1061
00:32:03.840 --> 00:32:05.799
every single day and

1062
00:32:05.800 --> 00:32:07.199
there are people organizing against

1063
00:32:07.200 --> 00:32:08.519
it, but it has to always be

1064
00:32:08.520 --> 00:32:10.519
nonviolent. And what Minnesota,

1065
00:32:10.520 --> 00:32:11.859
one of the interesting things about

1066
00:32:11.860 --> 00:32:13.859
them was that they

1067
00:32:13.860 --> 00:32:15.419
had been organizing since George

1068
00:32:15.420 --> 00:32:17.439
Floyd. So they had already

1069
00:32:17.440 --> 00:32:19.339
been through kind of the fire and

1070
00:32:19.340 --> 00:32:20.959
learned a lot of lessons about

1071
00:32:20.960 --> 00:32:22.599
nonviolent organizing that I think

1072
00:32:22.600 --> 00:32:24.699
really came to fruition in

1073
00:32:24.700 --> 00:32:25.599
that moment.

1074
00:32:25.600 --> 00:32:27.819
But I do want to say that like

1075
00:32:27.820 --> 00:32:29.579
that is true. There's a lot more

1076
00:32:29.580 --> 00:32:31.719
going on than people

1077
00:32:31.720 --> 00:32:32.559
think.

1078
00:32:32.560 --> 00:32:34.419
You say you're not seeing enough

1079
00:32:34.420 --> 00:32:36.399
Americans doing stuff.

1080
00:32:36.400 --> 00:32:38.219
Maybe I had really low expectations.

1081
00:32:38.220 --> 00:32:39.459
I think this country is exceeding my

1082
00:32:39.460 --> 00:32:40.899
expectations every single day.

1083
00:32:40.900 --> 00:32:42.719
I am so impressed by what

1084
00:32:42.720 --> 00:32:43.639
I see.

1085
00:32:43.640 --> 00:32:45.619
And we're doing a lot.

1086
00:32:45.620 --> 00:32:46.819
A lot of people are pushing back.

1087
00:32:46.820 --> 00:32:48.859
There have been a lot of victories.

1088
00:32:48.860 --> 00:32:50.779
We have the boycott against Avelo

1089
00:32:50.780 --> 00:32:52.619
Air had caused them to

1090
00:32:52.620 --> 00:32:54.569
stop doing ice deportation flights.

1091
00:32:54.570 --> 00:32:56.509
The J-6 flush front had

1092
00:32:56.510 --> 00:32:58.289
to be retracted.

1093
00:32:58.290 --> 00:32:59.909
Ice has been kicked out of Maine,

1094
00:32:59.910 --> 00:33:01.909
and kicked out Minnesota.

1095
00:33:01.910 --> 00:33:03.389
They keep getting kicked out places,

1096
00:33:03.390 --> 00:33:04.869
right? Every one of these

1097
00:33:04.870 --> 00:33:06.649
indictments about, you can't touch

1098
00:33:06.650 --> 00:33:08.009
water in the reflecting pool, or you

1099
00:33:08.010 --> 00:33:10.149
can put seashells on a beach,

1100
00:33:10.150 --> 00:33:11.209
whatever, none of them are

1101
00:33:11.210 --> 00:33:12.309
succeeding, right.

1102
00:33:12.310 --> 00:33:14.249
So the problem is, you have to fight

1103
00:33:14.250 --> 00:33:16.129
all the battles all the time

1104
00:33:16.130 --> 00:33:17.569
on all the fronts, and that's

1105
00:33:17.570 --> 00:33:18.909
exhausting.

1106
00:33:18.910 --> 00:33:20.349
And so we need more people.

1107
00:33:20.350 --> 00:33:21.199
So everyone.

1108
00:33:21.200 --> 00:33:22.599
Who's already doing the work, which

1109
00:33:22.600 --> 00:33:23.939
I'm guessing a lot of you in this

1110
00:33:23.940 --> 00:33:25.419
room already are doing, the most

1111
00:33:25.420 --> 00:33:26.459
important thing you do is recruit

1112
00:33:26.460 --> 00:33:27.029
other people to help.

1113
00:33:27.030 --> 00:33:28.729
You so you don't get too tired.

1114
00:33:28.730 --> 00:33:29.909
I want to get back to that at the

1115
00:33:29.910 --> 00:33:31.349
end, we'll ask. I love that you make

1116
00:33:31.350 --> 00:33:32.409
that point.

1117
00:33:32.410 --> 00:33:33.269
And while we're talking about

1118
00:33:33.270 --> 00:33:35.409
Minnesota, I should just say I saw

1119
00:33:35.410 --> 00:33:37.049
Alex Preti's mother put out a

1120
00:33:37.050 --> 00:33:38.809
statement, it's been six months, and

1121
00:33:38.810 --> 00:33:40.249
she said she has not gotten a call

1122
00:33:40.250 --> 00:33:42.510
from the government, an explanation.

1123
00:33:44.329 --> 00:33:46.089
Because of court proceedings, the

1124
00:33:46.090 --> 00:33:47.729
state officials are about to get

1125
00:33:47.730 --> 00:33:49.669
evidence from the FBI, but it hasn't

1126
00:33:49.670 --> 00:33:52.049
been provided previously.

1127
00:33:52.050 --> 00:33:53.889
Ami you have written that many

1128
00:33:53.890 --> 00:33:55.289
Americans have strong support

1129
00:33:55.290 --> 00:33:57.149
systems in their personal lives but

1130
00:33:57.150 --> 00:33:59.409
no real political home.

1131
00:33:59.410 --> 00:34:01.369
What is a political home?

1132
00:34:01.370 --> 00:34:03.369
What does that give people and

1133
00:34:03.370 --> 00:34:04.370
how do we find one?

1134
00:34:05.899 --> 00:34:06.899
Well,

1135
00:34:08.520 --> 00:34:10.439
I think this connects actually to

1136
00:34:10.440 --> 00:34:11.440
the Minnesota question.

1137
00:34:14.409 --> 00:34:16.968
Part of why Minnesota was

1138
00:34:16.969 --> 00:34:18.888
the wrong place to mess

1139
00:34:18.889 --> 00:34:20.669
with was because there had been a

1140
00:34:20.670 --> 00:34:22.448
lot of political organizing and

1141
00:34:22.449 --> 00:34:23.809
people did have political homes.

1142
00:34:25.050 --> 00:34:26.549
And what we mean by this, we talk

1143
00:34:26.550 --> 00:34:27.550
about this in the book,

1144
00:34:29.170 --> 00:34:31.408
is we have support systems

1145
00:34:31.409 --> 00:34:33.249
in our life for other kinds

1146
00:34:33.250 --> 00:34:34.250
of crisis.

1147
00:34:36.250 --> 00:34:38.448
We have health insurance

1148
00:34:38.449 --> 00:34:40.829
or a doctor or

1149
00:34:40.830 --> 00:34:42.388
medical care in case we have a

1150
00:34:42.389 --> 00:34:43.389
medical crisis.

1151
00:34:43.920 --> 00:34:45.799
We have spiritual community, faith

1152
00:34:45.800 --> 00:34:47.359
community.

1153
00:34:47.360 --> 00:34:48.759
We have a group of people we get

1154
00:34:48.760 --> 00:34:50.259
together for potluck with every

1155
00:34:50.260 --> 00:34:51.260
couple weeks,

1156
00:34:52.480 --> 00:34:54.238
in case we have some other form of

1157
00:34:54.239 --> 00:34:55.339
crisis.

1158
00:34:55.340 --> 00:34:56.658
For whatever reason, in the sort of

1159
00:34:56.659 --> 00:34:58.519
boxed set of American institutions,

1160
00:34:58.520 --> 00:35:00.959
we don't have that for if we,

1161
00:35:00.960 --> 00:35:02.919
in an unlikely event,

1162
00:35:02.920 --> 00:35:03.739
that we might have a political

1163
00:35:03.740 --> 00:35:05.739
crisis, a long cascading political

1164
00:35:05.740 --> 00:35:06.740
crisis.

1165
00:35:08.260 --> 00:35:10.479
Spoiler alert, we're

1166
00:35:10.480 --> 00:35:12.340
here now. And

1167
00:35:13.890 --> 00:35:15.489
What do we do?

1168
00:35:15.490 --> 00:35:17.309
And what we find all over

1169
00:35:17.310 --> 00:35:19.009
the world, in all the places that we

1170
00:35:19.010 --> 00:35:20.549
talk to, and all the, I think

1171
00:35:20.550 --> 00:35:22.049
literally, every dissonant we spoke

1172
00:35:22.050 --> 00:35:23.929
to, said that after they

1173
00:35:23.930 --> 00:35:26.029
had had that initial moral collision

1174
00:35:26.030 --> 00:35:27.829
that Julia spoke about, that initial

1175
00:35:27.830 --> 00:35:29.009
moment that said that something is

1176
00:35:29.010 --> 00:35:30.229
wrong and I need to act on this

1177
00:35:30.230 --> 00:35:32.569
voice in my head, this

1178
00:35:32.570 --> 00:35:34.049
voice of conscience,

1179
00:35:35.510 --> 00:35:37.769
almost everybody found,

1180
00:35:37.770 --> 00:35:39.969
fairly quickly, between 8 and

1181
00:35:39.970 --> 00:35:41.949
12 people who

1182
00:35:41.950 --> 00:35:43.289
shared their values in some way.

1183
00:35:44.730 --> 00:35:45.809
I'm hesitant to do more.

1184
00:35:45.810 --> 00:35:46.810
Let's just do it. Let's do it!

1185
00:35:47.630 --> 00:35:49.809
Come on, we're getting another

1186
00:35:49.810 --> 00:35:50.810
Hebrew words coming.

1187
00:35:55.450 --> 00:35:56.450
In Judaism,

1188
00:35:58.250 --> 00:36:00.109
I was talking to Sharon Browse a few

1189
00:36:00.110 --> 00:36:01.929
days ago, and I

1190
00:36:01.930 --> 00:36:03.069
told her how much that she had

1191
00:36:03.070 --> 00:36:04.770
inspired us in this book.

1192
00:36:06.270 --> 00:36:08.209
And every time I talk, I realize,

1193
00:36:08.210 --> 00:36:09.349
like, we might have just lifted some

1194
00:36:09.350 --> 00:36:11.229
of her stuff at the end of the day.

1195
00:36:11.230 --> 00:36:12.589
Just kidding, we didn't do it.

1196
00:36:15.020 --> 00:36:16.379
In Judaism, there are certain things

1197
00:36:16.380 --> 00:36:17.499
that you cannot do without 10

1198
00:36:17.500 --> 00:36:18.679
people. It's called a minyan.

1199
00:36:19.860 --> 00:36:21.819
And we found this over and over

1200
00:36:21.820 --> 00:36:23.879
and over again with people.

1201
00:36:23.880 --> 00:36:26.419
That you cannot be

1202
00:36:26.420 --> 00:36:27.479
as courageous. There was something

1203
00:36:27.480 --> 00:36:28.559
about being around other people who

1204
00:36:28.560 --> 00:36:31.099
share your values that unlocks

1205
00:36:31.100 --> 00:36:33.099
a kind of courage that you

1206
00:36:33.100 --> 00:36:34.600
can not access alone.

1207
00:36:35.780 --> 00:36:36.780
And Thank you.

1208
00:36:38.350 --> 00:36:41.029
We heard this from a guy,

1209
00:36:41.030 --> 00:36:43.889
this guy Felix Maradiaga,

1210
00:36:44.990 --> 00:36:47.169
who a few years ago was imprisoned

1211
00:36:47.170 --> 00:36:49.049
by the, I don't know if you saw

1212
00:36:49.050 --> 00:36:49.909
it recently, like this week

1213
00:36:49.910 --> 00:36:52.149
actually, the president of Nicaragua

1214
00:36:52.150 --> 00:36:53.549
said, we're not having any elections

1215
00:36:53.550 --> 00:36:54.550
anymore.

1216
00:36:55.370 --> 00:36:56.729
One of the guys who ran against him

1217
00:36:56.730 --> 00:36:58.589
last, this guy, Felix, he just put

1218
00:36:58.590 --> 00:36:59.669
him in jail.

1219
00:36:59.670 --> 00:37:01.489
They had the last election, and they

1220
00:37:01.490 --> 00:37:02.409
moved on.

1221
00:37:02.410 --> 00:37:03.589
Felix said, I could not have gotten

1222
00:37:03.590 --> 00:37:05.409
through this without a few

1223
00:37:05.410 --> 00:37:06.429
other people who knew what I was

1224
00:37:06.430 --> 00:37:07.949
going for a few other dissidents.

1225
00:37:07.950 --> 00:37:10.229
But we also read about this when

1226
00:37:10.230 --> 00:37:11.929
we were reading extensively about

1227
00:37:11.930 --> 00:37:13.849
the Soviet dissident movement,

1228
00:37:13.850 --> 00:37:15.329
which was a movement that never grew

1229
00:37:15.330 --> 00:37:18.229
to be more than about 1,000 people,

1230
00:37:18.230 --> 00:37:20.329
but managed to,

1231
00:37:20.330 --> 00:37:22.569
with the aid of geopolitical forces,

1232
00:37:22.570 --> 00:37:24.649
bring down an empire that felt

1233
00:37:24.650 --> 00:37:26.449
sort of inevitable, that felt like

1234
00:37:26.450 --> 00:37:28.329
it was never going to

1235
00:37:28.330 --> 00:37:29.369
fall.

1236
00:37:29.370 --> 00:37:31.109
And what you hear from these Soviet

1237
00:37:31.110 --> 00:37:33.369
dissidents is there

1238
00:37:33.370 --> 00:37:34.609
are two things that having a

1239
00:37:34.610 --> 00:37:36.439
political home gave me.

1240
00:37:36.440 --> 00:37:37.719
You hear this from, there's a great

1241
00:37:37.720 --> 00:37:39.399
book called, well, I won't say the

1242
00:37:39.400 --> 00:37:40.519
name of the book, but there's the

1243
00:37:40.520 --> 00:37:42.779
name the book by

1244
00:37:42.780 --> 00:37:44.019
a guy named Ben Nathan, who's a

1245
00:37:44.020 --> 00:37:45.999
historian who, which is a very,

1246
00:37:46.000 --> 00:37:47.679
very rich history.

1247
00:37:47.680 --> 00:37:48.599
And he, and he takes us through

1248
00:37:48.600 --> 00:37:50.479
every, like dozens and

1249
00:37:50.480 --> 00:37:51.339
dozens of Soviet dissidents.

1250
00:37:51.340 --> 00:37:52.819
And they all say, basically there

1251
00:37:52.820 --> 00:37:54.819
are two things that gathering

1252
00:37:54.820 --> 00:37:56.919
regularly with a group of people

1253
00:37:56.920 --> 00:37:57.799
gave me.

1254
00:37:57.800 --> 00:37:59.719
One was pragmatic.

1255
00:37:59.720 --> 00:38:01.699
We could actually plan

1256
00:38:01.700 --> 00:38:03.819
practically what

1257
00:38:03.820 --> 00:38:05.259
we were going to do.

1258
00:38:05.260 --> 00:38:06.419
To push back against the government,

1259
00:38:06.420 --> 00:38:07.619
how we were gonna get Sami Stott

1260
00:38:07.620 --> 00:38:08.739
out, how we we're gonna get our

1261
00:38:08.740 --> 00:38:10.839
writings out, what

1262
00:38:10.840 --> 00:38:11.999
kind of protest we were going to

1263
00:38:12.000 --> 00:38:13.159
have.

1264
00:38:13.160 --> 00:38:13.979
But the other thing that it did was

1265
00:38:13.980 --> 00:38:16.139
something more spiritual and

1266
00:38:16.140 --> 00:38:17.579
psychological, which was that it

1267
00:38:17.580 --> 00:38:19.419
also emboldened them.

1268
00:38:19.420 --> 00:38:21.239
It made them be able to sit

1269
00:38:21.240 --> 00:38:22.819
with each other in their apartments

1270
00:38:22.820 --> 00:38:24.819
and in their

1271
00:38:24.820 --> 00:38:27.259
kitchens and say,

1272
00:38:27.260 --> 00:38:28.939
are you seeing what I'm seeing?

1273
00:38:28.940 --> 00:38:29.859
Because the government's telling me

1274
00:38:29.860 --> 00:38:31.679
that I'm not seeing what i'm

1275
00:38:31.680 --> 00:38:32.979
seeing. And to say, yeah, you should

1276
00:38:32.980 --> 00:38:33.959
believe your eyes, I'm seeing the

1277
00:38:33.960 --> 00:38:35.029
same thing that you're seeing.

1278
00:38:35.030 --> 00:38:37.989
Now, these are extreme examples,

1279
00:38:37.990 --> 00:38:40.049
but in principle, they're

1280
00:38:40.050 --> 00:38:41.449
the same thing. We're living in a

1281
00:38:41.450 --> 00:38:43.209
country where all of us, to

1282
00:38:43.210 --> 00:38:45.169
Jessica's point about Alex Preti,

1283
00:38:45.170 --> 00:38:48.029
saw a video of a person shot in

1284
00:38:48.030 --> 00:38:49.649
the street, and our government said

1285
00:38:49.650 --> 00:38:51.329
to us, yeah, you didn't see that.

1286
00:38:53.730 --> 00:38:55.049
And how many times is this happening

1287
00:38:55.050 --> 00:38:56.229
in communities where people are

1288
00:38:56.230 --> 00:38:57.609
being rounded up by ICE, and how

1289
00:38:57.610 --> 00:38:58.889
many time is this is happening where

1290
00:38:58.890 --> 00:39:00.029
people discriminating against trans

1291
00:39:00.030 --> 00:39:00.949
people, and how may times is

1292
00:39:00.950 --> 00:39:02.689
happening on university campuses

1293
00:39:02.690 --> 00:39:04.649
where people can't say certain

1294
00:39:04.650 --> 00:39:05.650
things now.

1295
00:39:06.710 --> 00:39:07.789
Gathering with a group of people in

1296
00:39:07.790 --> 00:39:09.649
a political home is critical,

1297
00:39:09.650 --> 00:39:10.949
and that's the way that we invest

1298
00:39:10.950 --> 00:39:12.989
spiritually and practically in

1299
00:39:12.990 --> 00:39:13.889
the work moving forward.

1300
00:39:13.890 --> 00:39:15.169
And this is a real call to action in

1301
00:39:15.170 --> 00:39:17.049
the book, that like, find a

1302
00:39:17.050 --> 00:39:19.589
place, go to a place every week,

1303
00:39:19.590 --> 00:39:20.889
and start there.

1304
00:39:20.890 --> 00:39:22.109
Or create one.

1305
00:39:22.110 --> 00:39:23.110
Or create one.

1306
00:39:23.930 --> 00:39:25.209
Julia, there's a strong and growing

1307
00:39:25.210 --> 00:39:26.689
movement in Washington, D.C.

1308
00:39:26.690 --> 00:39:27.569
Right now.

1309
00:39:27.570 --> 00:39:28.489
Would you talk a little bit about

1310
00:39:28.490 --> 00:39:29.490
what they're doing and what's working?

1311
00:39:30.660 --> 00:39:32.619
Yeah, there's a wonderful group that

1312
00:39:32.620 --> 00:39:34.239
we profile in the book called Free

1313
00:39:34.240 --> 00:39:36.719
DC that's basically been

1314
00:39:36.720 --> 00:39:38.999
preparing for martial

1315
00:39:39.000 --> 00:39:41.119
law since

1316
00:39:41.120 --> 00:39:43.379
January of

1317
00:39:43.380 --> 00:39:44.899
2025.

1318
00:39:44.900 --> 00:39:46.099
I don't know if anyone's been to DC

1319
00:39:46.100 --> 00:39:48.459
recently, but it's already here.

1320
00:39:48.460 --> 00:39:49.759
There's 5,000 troops stationed

1321
00:39:49.760 --> 00:39:50.919
permanently in DC.

1322
00:39:50.920 --> 00:39:52.579
They have a curfew.

1323
00:39:52.580 --> 00:39:54.579
People are arrested for staying out

1324
00:39:54.580 --> 00:39:55.580
past curfue.

1325
00:39:58.030 --> 00:40:00.069
This is a real problem

1326
00:40:00.070 --> 00:40:02.029
because fighting authoritarianism

1327
00:40:02.030 --> 00:40:03.809
usually involves eventually having

1328
00:40:03.810 --> 00:40:05.769
to have a lot of people on

1329
00:40:05.770 --> 00:40:08.049
the ground in the capital city.

1330
00:40:08.050 --> 00:40:10.069
And so Free DC,

1331
00:40:10.070 --> 00:40:11.329
the founders knew from the

1332
00:40:11.330 --> 00:40:13.169
beginning, like this is

1333
00:40:13.170 --> 00:40:14.209
going to be a battleground and we

1334
00:40:14.210 --> 00:40:16.629
need to organize. So they started by

1335
00:40:16.630 --> 00:40:18.209
building neighborhood groups.

1336
00:40:18.210 --> 00:40:19.269
They were like actually we just need

1337
00:40:19.270 --> 00:40:21.169
a signal group chat for

1338
00:40:21.170 --> 00:40:22.809
every neighborhood.

1339
00:40:22.810 --> 00:40:24.689
And their motto is

1340
00:40:24.690 --> 00:40:25.999
actually joy.

1341
00:40:26.000 --> 00:40:28.099
To bring joy, and so these

1342
00:40:28.100 --> 00:40:29.499
groups that get together in each

1343
00:40:29.500 --> 00:40:31.419
neighborhood are, they're

1344
00:40:31.420 --> 00:40:32.659
having drumming circles, they're

1345
00:40:32.660 --> 00:40:34.659
have clothing swaps,

1346
00:40:34.660 --> 00:40:36.299
they have potlucks, there's not

1347
00:40:36.300 --> 00:40:38.319
actually really, I mean they

1348
00:40:38.320 --> 00:40:39.699
have their single group chat and

1349
00:40:39.700 --> 00:40:41.619
they're definitely keeping track of

1350
00:40:41.620 --> 00:40:42.899
which National Guard is on their

1351
00:40:42.900 --> 00:40:45.119
block at which time, but most

1352
00:40:45.120 --> 00:40:46.979
of it is actually fun because their

1353
00:40:46.980 --> 00:40:48.839
point is, they want us to

1354
00:40:48.840 --> 00:40:50.759
be scared and we refuse to be

1355
00:40:50.760 --> 00:40:52.599
scarred, and joy is the best way

1356
00:40:52.600 --> 00:40:53.719
to counter fear.

1357
00:40:53.720 --> 00:40:55.179
And so we profile them in the book

1358
00:40:55.180 --> 00:40:56.539
because they're so inspirational

1359
00:40:56.540 --> 00:40:58.579
about what it looks like to

1360
00:40:58.580 --> 00:41:00.299
fight back against the fear that

1361
00:41:00.300 --> 00:41:01.889
they want to instill in you.

1362
00:41:01.890 --> 00:41:03.049
I'd say one other thing on this,

1363
00:41:03.050 --> 00:41:04.609
which is just something that's

1364
00:41:04.610 --> 00:41:05.449
happened this week. Are people following

1365
00:41:05.450 --> 00:41:07.729
what's happening in India right now?

1366
00:41:07.730 --> 00:41:10.689
So India this week,

1367
00:41:10.690 --> 00:41:12.329
in the last, it's happened very,

1368
00:41:12.330 --> 00:41:13.629
very quickly, actually.

1369
00:41:13.630 --> 00:41:15.929
But there is,

1370
00:41:15.930 --> 00:41:17.529
Narendra Modi is an authoritarian,

1371
00:41:17.530 --> 00:41:18.909
and much in the way that Donald

1372
00:41:18.910 --> 00:41:19.969
Trump and Viktor Orban are

1373
00:41:19.970 --> 00:41:21.409
authoritarian in that sort of slow

1374
00:41:21.410 --> 00:41:23.529
hollowing out of institutions.

1375
00:41:24.910 --> 00:41:26.849
And without

1376
00:41:26.850 --> 00:41:28.430
getting too into the weeds here,

1377
00:41:29.450 --> 00:41:31.789
there was a massive social

1378
00:41:31.790 --> 00:41:34.029
crisis because the results of

1379
00:41:34.030 --> 00:41:36.549
a very consequential education test

1380
00:41:36.550 --> 00:41:38.629
that helps decide what people's

1381
00:41:38.630 --> 00:41:40.569
futures are gonna be in India were

1382
00:41:40.570 --> 00:41:42.449
canceled for

1383
00:41:42.450 --> 00:41:43.429
various reasons.

1384
00:41:43.430 --> 00:41:45.269
It led to a spate

1385
00:41:45.270 --> 00:41:46.949
of suicides.

1386
00:41:46.950 --> 00:41:48.429
I mean, it's like really, really

1387
00:41:48.430 --> 00:41:50.789
deep, deep sorrow among people,

1388
00:41:50.790 --> 00:41:52.589
these young students, and people

1389
00:41:52.590 --> 00:41:53.449
took to the streets.

1390
00:41:53.450 --> 00:41:55.329
And For the

1391
00:41:55.330 --> 00:41:57.549
first time, we think of India as

1392
00:41:57.550 --> 00:41:59.529
sort of the home of nonviolent

1393
00:41:59.530 --> 00:42:00.809
civil disobedience because of the

1394
00:42:00.810 --> 00:42:02.189
Gandhian nonviolent movement.

1395
00:42:02.190 --> 00:42:03.429
But it's been a really long time

1396
00:42:03.430 --> 00:42:04.509
since this kind of thing has

1397
00:42:04.510 --> 00:42:05.689
happened in India.

1398
00:42:05.690 --> 00:42:07.789
And they were able, in a matter

1399
00:42:07.790 --> 00:42:09.589
of weeks, were able to take down the

1400
00:42:09.590 --> 00:42:11.109
education minister, force the

1401
00:42:11.110 --> 00:42:12.669
resignation out of a government that

1402
00:42:12.670 --> 00:42:14.489
had not acknowledged dissent

1403
00:42:14.490 --> 00:42:16.509
or opposition for a very, very long

1404
00:42:16.510 --> 00:42:17.389
time.

1405
00:42:17.390 --> 00:42:18.489
And one of the, I've been reading

1406
00:42:18.490 --> 00:42:20.389
about this all week, and over and

1407
00:42:20.390 --> 00:42:21.509
over again, what you hear about in

1408
00:42:21.510 --> 00:42:23.389
the reporting, and what you see

1409
00:42:23.390 --> 00:42:24.390
in the report.

1410
00:42:24.950 --> 00:42:26.929
Is that students were

1411
00:42:26.930 --> 00:42:28.909
just having a great

1412
00:42:28.910 --> 00:42:29.709
time.

1413
00:42:29.710 --> 00:42:31.549
They were getting the crap

1414
00:42:31.550 --> 00:42:33.549
beat out of them, which was

1415
00:42:33.550 --> 00:42:35.449
very serious, and helped with the

1416
00:42:35.450 --> 00:42:36.669
narrative battle that Julia just

1417
00:42:36.670 --> 00:42:38.969
described, but there was like

1418
00:42:38.970 --> 00:42:41.009
a hint, there was a

1419
00:42:41.010 --> 00:42:42.829
seat kitchen and a Muslim kitchen,

1420
00:42:42.830 --> 00:42:44.509
and there were meme wars, and

1421
00:42:44.510 --> 00:42:45.569
everybody was making fun of the

1422
00:42:45.570 --> 00:42:46.869
government, and it was a blast, and

1423
00:42:46.870 --> 00:42:48.709
it really vibey,

1424
00:42:48.710 --> 00:42:49.710
honestly.

1425
00:42:50.630 --> 00:42:52.469
And that, and we, right in the book,

1426
00:42:52.470 --> 00:42:53.649
I think the phrase that we use in

1427
00:42:53.650 --> 00:42:55.649
the book is... Joy is a

1428
00:42:55.650 --> 00:42:57.729
beachhead for organizing.

1429
00:42:57.730 --> 00:42:59.789
And that's exactly what we saw,

1430
00:42:59.790 --> 00:43:00.829
and I think we'll continue to see in

1431
00:43:00.830 --> 00:43:02.269
places like India, which is also

1432
00:43:02.270 --> 00:43:04.089
animating Free DC in

1433
00:43:04.090 --> 00:43:05.129
Washington.

1434
00:43:05.130 --> 00:43:06.849
I interviewed Ann Applebaum, the

1435
00:43:06.850 --> 00:43:07.809
Pulitzer Prize winner who's written

1436
00:43:07.810 --> 00:43:09.149
about authoritarianism around the

1437
00:43:09.150 --> 00:43:10.509
world, and I asked her right after

1438
00:43:10.510 --> 00:43:12.329
Trump was elected what is the single

1439
00:43:12.330 --> 00:43:14.349
most important thing

1440
00:43:14.350 --> 00:43:15.369
we need.

1441
00:43:15.370 --> 00:43:17.089
To resist authoritarianism, and she

1442
00:43:17.090 --> 00:43:18.090
said, joy.

1443
00:43:19.230 --> 00:43:20.069
And I have a question. Would you

1444
00:43:20.070 --> 00:43:21.909
open that for me? I can't open it.

1445
00:43:21.910 --> 00:43:22.910
I need water.

1446
00:43:25.710 --> 00:43:27.429
You got it? How did you do that so

1447
00:43:27.430 --> 00:43:28.430
easily?

1448
00:43:29.270 --> 00:43:31.569
Gentle touch. Thank you.

1449
00:43:31.570 --> 00:43:33.429
OK, Julia, this is what I

1450
00:43:33.430 --> 00:43:35.469
first asked you about all those

1451
00:43:35.470 --> 00:43:36.689
many months ago. Let's make this

1452
00:43:36.690 --> 00:43:38.549
practical. So for a person

1453
00:43:38.550 --> 00:43:40.289
who wants to go out either to

1454
00:43:40.290 --> 00:43:42.589
protest or to resist or to,

1455
00:43:42.590 --> 00:43:45.019
you know, start organizing.

1456
00:43:45.020 --> 00:43:46.699
What are some practical tips we need

1457
00:43:46.700 --> 00:43:48.579
to just keep our tech safe,

1458
00:43:48.580 --> 00:43:50.499
keep ourselves, and protect our

1459
00:43:50.500 --> 00:43:51.500
privacy?

1460
00:43:52.380 --> 00:43:53.779
Yeah, this was a really hard one for

1461
00:43:53.780 --> 00:43:55.699
me because 10 years ago,

1462
00:43:55.700 --> 00:43:58.079
I wrote a book, Dragnet Nation,

1463
00:43:58.080 --> 00:43:59.939
about how to protect yourself.

1464
00:43:59.940 --> 00:44:00.509
Oh, thank you.

1465
00:44:00.510 --> 00:44:01.510
Thank you.

1466
00:44:02.070 --> 00:44:03.769
How to protect yourself and your

1467
00:44:03.770 --> 00:44:05.369
privacy in a world of relentless

1468
00:44:05.370 --> 00:44:06.409
surveillance.

1469
00:44:06.410 --> 00:44:08.009
And I tried a whole bunch of

1470
00:44:08.010 --> 00:44:09.029
different techniques and wrote

1471
00:44:09.030 --> 00:44:11.169
about, ultimately, the

1472
00:44:11.170 --> 00:44:12.889
point I made in the book was that

1473
00:44:12.890 --> 00:44:13.809
it's a collective problem.

1474
00:44:13.810 --> 00:44:15.909
It's really hard to do individually.

1475
00:44:18.160 --> 00:44:20.179
One thing that was really shocking

1476
00:44:20.180 --> 00:44:21.479
about that book is that when I went

1477
00:44:21.480 --> 00:44:23.219
back and looked at it is that all

1478
00:44:23.220 --> 00:44:24.699
the dystopian scenarios that I

1479
00:44:24.700 --> 00:44:27.519
described as like maybe could happen

1480
00:44:27.520 --> 00:44:29.739
have happened and worse.

1481
00:44:29.740 --> 00:44:32.039
Like, it's worse than I imagined.

1482
00:44:32.040 --> 00:44:33.520
In all the reviews for my book, not

1483
00:44:33.521 --> 00:44:35.939
that I'm bitter and rereading them,

1484
00:44:35.940 --> 00:44:37.900
were like, this lady is hysterical.

1485
00:44:39.280 --> 00:44:42.129
And I was under paranoid.

1486
00:44:42.130 --> 00:44:43.689
Anyways, when I was interviewing all

1487
00:44:43.690 --> 00:44:45.029
these dissidents, I was like, okay,

1488
00:44:45.030 --> 00:44:46.409
now I'm gonna really find them

1489
00:44:46.410 --> 00:44:47.929
actual. This is gonna be the real

1490
00:44:47.930 --> 00:44:49.309
defense strategy.

1491
00:44:49.310 --> 00:44:51.289
And the real tragedy of it is

1492
00:44:51.290 --> 00:44:53.569
that there's no silver bullet.

1493
00:44:53.570 --> 00:44:55.389
But we talk about this

1494
00:44:55.390 --> 00:44:57.129
theory, and unfortunately, the guy

1495
00:44:57.130 --> 00:44:58.989
who came up with it actually

1496
00:44:58.990 --> 00:45:01.009
is a Los Angeles resident,

1497
00:45:01.010 --> 00:45:02.369
but he's not here right now, but he

1498
00:45:02.370 --> 00:45:04.649
did send his regards, Rafael Memoom.

1499
00:45:04.650 --> 00:45:06.769
He made an app called Tela that is

1500
00:45:06.770 --> 00:45:09.169
essentially a way to

1501
00:45:09.170 --> 00:45:10.989
take video at a

1502
00:45:10.990 --> 00:45:12.258
protest.

1503
00:45:12.259 --> 00:45:14.139
In an encrypted app, so that's not

1504
00:45:14.140 --> 00:45:15.879
on your camera roll, so that when

1505
00:45:15.880 --> 00:45:17.779
they take your phone from you, which

1506
00:45:17.780 --> 00:45:19.639
is going to happen,

1507
00:45:19.640 --> 00:45:21.599
they can't access the video

1508
00:45:21.600 --> 00:45:23.539
footage and that way it's

1509
00:45:23.540 --> 00:45:24.540
secure.

1510
00:45:24.980 --> 00:45:26.219
So. What's that called again?

1511
00:45:26.220 --> 00:45:28.619
It's T-E-L-L A.

1512
00:45:28.620 --> 00:45:30.799
But actually his theory is

1513
00:45:30.800 --> 00:45:31.959
even better than that, which is

1514
00:45:31.960 --> 00:45:33.459
called, he calls it the Swiss cheese

1515
00:45:33.460 --> 00:45:35.399
theory, which is that every layer

1516
00:45:35.400 --> 00:45:37.539
that you have of defense

1517
00:45:37.540 --> 00:45:38.879
has a hole in it.

1518
00:45:38.880 --> 00:45:40.699
So you have to put layers on layers

1519
00:45:40.700 --> 00:45:42.039
and layers to make your cheese

1520
00:45:42.040 --> 00:45:43.739
sandwich really fat, so that

1521
00:45:43.740 --> 00:45:45.758
hopefully when you take a bite,

1522
00:45:45.759 --> 00:45:47.159
you're getting all cheese.

1523
00:45:47.160 --> 00:45:47.939
I don't know if this is an ad. You guys

1524
00:45:47.940 --> 00:45:48.940
getting this?

1525
00:45:51.509 --> 00:45:53.329
Okay, anyways, point is

1526
00:45:53.330 --> 00:45:55.329
all the layers have holes, okay?

1527
00:45:55.330 --> 00:45:57.349
But you gotta have enough layers.

1528
00:45:57.350 --> 00:45:59.349
So point, so layer one

1529
00:45:59.350 --> 00:46:01.289
is, you need to not have

1530
00:46:01.290 --> 00:46:03.249
your face recognition on

1531
00:46:03.250 --> 00:46:04.969
or your biometric fingerprint on

1532
00:46:04.970 --> 00:46:06.909
because the police can

1533
00:46:06.910 --> 00:46:08.229
take your phone and hold it to your

1534
00:46:08.230 --> 00:46:09.069
face and unlock it.

1535
00:46:09.070 --> 00:46:10.130
So it has to be a pin code.

1536
00:46:11.470 --> 00:46:13.829
Then inside your phone,

1537
00:46:13.830 --> 00:46:15.089
oftentimes, unfortunately, they'll

1538
00:46:15.090 --> 00:46:16.369
put you in an uncomfortable position

1539
00:46:16.370 --> 00:46:17.889
and say, I need your pin and you

1540
00:46:17.890 --> 00:46:18.729
eventually will give it to them

1541
00:46:18.730 --> 00:46:19.589
because they won't let you go to the

1542
00:46:19.590 --> 00:46:20.989
bathroom or something.

1543
00:46:20.990 --> 00:46:22.989
So one thing that is recommended

1544
00:46:22.990 --> 00:46:24.369
is cloaking your apps.

1545
00:46:24.370 --> 00:46:26.269
So like you can put,

1546
00:46:26.270 --> 00:46:28.049
make your CryptoChat look like a

1547
00:46:28.050 --> 00:46:30.129
weather app or

1548
00:46:30.130 --> 00:46:31.829
other different options.

1549
00:46:31.830 --> 00:46:33.649
Apple has an option to how to cloak

1550
00:46:33.650 --> 00:46:34.729
your app so it gives you different

1551
00:46:34.730 --> 00:46:36.109
icons you can choose from and then

1552
00:46:36.110 --> 00:46:38.189
some apps like Signal and Cryptochat

1553
00:46:38.190 --> 00:46:39.929
also have choices like, oh, what do

1554
00:46:39.930 --> 00:46:41.290
you want your app to look like?

1555
00:46:42.350 --> 00:46:43.609
Then there's also another layer

1556
00:46:43.610 --> 00:46:45.909
which is you can actually hide

1557
00:46:45.910 --> 00:46:47.909
your, the app can't

1558
00:46:47.910 --> 00:46:49.669
be opened without another pin.

1559
00:46:49.670 --> 00:46:51.209
And then there's even another layer.

1560
00:46:51.210 --> 00:46:52.869
We have an app that we profile

1561
00:46:52.870 --> 00:46:54.769
called Yuki, E-U-K-I,

1562
00:46:54.770 --> 00:46:56.989
which is to do searches

1563
00:46:56.990 --> 00:46:59.449
for reproductive information

1564
00:46:59.450 --> 00:47:01.689
in a secure setting because that's

1565
00:47:01.690 --> 00:47:03.609
becoming much more dangerous

1566
00:47:03.610 --> 00:47:04.549
for people.

1567
00:47:04.550 --> 00:47:06.669
So you log in to Yuki

1568
00:47:06.670 --> 00:47:08.569
with, you have a PIN code, but

1569
00:47:08.570 --> 00:47:10.409
they also have you set up a

1570
00:47:10.410 --> 00:47:12.349
fake PIN so that if somebody says

1571
00:47:12.350 --> 00:47:14.169
to you, oh,

1572
00:47:14.170 --> 00:47:15.519
unlock the app.

1573
00:47:15.520 --> 00:47:17.099
You put in the fake pin, and it

1574
00:47:17.100 --> 00:47:18.439
says, oh, the app is down.

1575
00:47:18.440 --> 00:47:19.739
Like a little error message comes

1576
00:47:19.740 --> 00:47:20.740
up.

1577
00:47:22.120 --> 00:47:24.079
So just layers upon layers

1578
00:47:24.080 --> 00:47:25.279
upon layer.

1579
00:47:25.280 --> 00:47:26.919
One of my favorite things that

1580
00:47:26.920 --> 00:47:28.739
WhatsApp added is that

1581
00:47:28.740 --> 00:47:30.939
you can actually hide chats within.

1582
00:47:30.940 --> 00:47:32.139
So you and I have a chat called

1583
00:47:32.140 --> 00:47:33.459
Jessica and Julia.

1584
00:47:33.460 --> 00:47:35.379
But we can actually set it

1585
00:47:35.380 --> 00:47:37.259
up in WhatsApp so that that

1586
00:47:37.260 --> 00:47:38.619
doesn't show up on the list of

1587
00:47:38.620 --> 00:47:40.519
chats. You just type in a number

1588
00:47:40.520 --> 00:47:42.339
into the search bar, and then that

1589
00:47:42.340 --> 00:47:43.359
chat says.

1590
00:47:43.360 --> 00:47:45.219
So so that's so that like

1591
00:47:45.220 --> 00:47:46.439
the Swiss cheese layer that I'm

1592
00:47:46.440 --> 00:47:47.479
talking about, like all of those

1593
00:47:47.480 --> 00:47:49.319
things together just add more

1594
00:47:49.320 --> 00:47:51.139
and more layers of protection.

1595
00:47:51.140 --> 00:47:52.139
But one thing I would just say about

1596
00:47:52.140 --> 00:47:54.199
protests and then he's dying.

1597
00:47:54.200 --> 00:47:56.439
No, I just want to say that now

1598
00:47:56.440 --> 00:47:57.359
that I've heard this a few times

1599
00:47:57.360 --> 00:47:58.839
from you, it's just very clear that

1600
00:47:58.840 --> 00:47:59.799
things that make a good dissident

1601
00:47:59.800 --> 00:48:01.059
are also the things that make a drug

1602
00:48:01.060 --> 00:48:02.060
dealer.

1603
00:48:05.400 --> 00:48:07.759
Dual use dual

1604
00:48:07.760 --> 00:48:08.539
use technologies.

1605
00:48:08.540 --> 00:48:09.540
That's right.

1606
00:48:10.180 --> 00:48:11.619
Um, honestly, I think the drug

1607
00:48:11.620 --> 00:48:12.779
dealers are even we should actually

1608
00:48:12.780 --> 00:48:13.780
go to them for

1609
00:48:17.240 --> 00:48:18.989
Dissidents and drug dealers.

1610
00:48:18.990 --> 00:48:20.289
The problem is they're legalizing

1611
00:48:20.290 --> 00:48:21.389
all the drugs. So like, what is

1612
00:48:21.390 --> 00:48:23.389
there? What's left for these people?

1613
00:48:23.390 --> 00:48:24.709
Dissident.

1614
00:48:24.710 --> 00:48:25.529
Resisting.

1615
00:48:25.530 --> 00:48:26.749
OK, just one more thing.

1616
00:48:26.750 --> 00:48:28.749
When you go to a protest, if you

1617
00:48:28.750 --> 00:48:30.889
want to keep

1618
00:48:30.890 --> 00:48:32.609
safe, one of the things, people tell

1619
00:48:32.610 --> 00:48:33.849
you to leave your phone at home.

1620
00:48:33.850 --> 00:48:35.509
That's not really, I mean, you can,

1621
00:48:35.510 --> 00:48:37.329
if want to. But honestly, your

1622
00:48:37.330 --> 00:48:39.449
phone is a great weapon, right,

1623
00:48:39.450 --> 00:48:41.529
to film.

1624
00:48:41.530 --> 00:48:43.369
The state violence that is maybe

1625
00:48:43.370 --> 00:48:44.149
gonna happen, right?

1626
00:48:44.150 --> 00:48:45.149
Which we hope won't happen.

1627
00:48:45.150 --> 00:48:46.809
But it's an important documentation

1628
00:48:46.810 --> 00:48:47.689
device.

1629
00:48:47.690 --> 00:48:49.609
So one thing that, if

1630
00:48:49.610 --> 00:48:50.909
you don't wanna use Tela, which is

1631
00:48:50.910 --> 00:48:53.289
this encrypted app for filming,

1632
00:48:53.290 --> 00:48:55.089
another recommendation that I felt

1633
00:48:55.090 --> 00:48:57.169
it offers is in your signal

1634
00:48:57.170 --> 00:48:59.109
chat, set up a group of people, of

1635
00:48:59.110 --> 00:49:00.329
five people who are not at the

1636
00:49:00.330 --> 00:49:02.389
protest, or whatever, eight, a 10,

1637
00:49:02.390 --> 00:49:04.349
a million of people.

1638
00:49:04.350 --> 00:49:06.709
And film within it so

1639
00:49:06.710 --> 00:49:08.569
that they are getting live updates

1640
00:49:08.570 --> 00:49:10.269
of where you are.

1641
00:49:10.270 --> 00:49:11.929
And it's also not storing to your

1642
00:49:11.930 --> 00:49:13.069
camera roll. So that way you're sort

1643
00:49:13.070 --> 00:49:14.969
of broadcasting and

1644
00:49:14.970 --> 00:49:15.989
keeping yourself safe that way.

1645
00:49:17.440 --> 00:49:18.719
Did you have something to add?

1646
00:49:18.720 --> 00:49:19.679
I added what I wanted to.

1647
00:49:19.680 --> 00:49:20.479
OK.

1648
00:49:20.480 --> 00:49:22.039
I do have one quick question for

1649
00:49:22.040 --> 00:49:23.859
you. Is there a Yiddish word for

1650
00:49:23.860 --> 00:49:25.239
under paranoid?

1651
00:49:25.240 --> 00:49:26.689
I feel like there would be.

1652
00:49:26.690 --> 00:49:27.669
Underparanoid.

1653
00:49:27.670 --> 00:49:29.429
But she said she was under-paranoid

1654
00:49:29.430 --> 00:49:30.669
in her last book.

1655
00:49:30.670 --> 00:49:32.509
I don't think any Jew has

1656
00:49:32.510 --> 00:49:32.930
ever been underground.

1657
00:49:32.931 --> 00:49:34.789
Underground, okay, fair,

1658
00:49:34.790 --> 00:49:35.790
fair.

1659
00:49:40.560 --> 00:49:41.880
Set me up for that

1660
00:49:44.550 --> 00:49:46.669
Okay, on that point,

1661
00:49:46.670 --> 00:49:48.609
you argue that courage can be

1662
00:49:48.610 --> 00:49:49.649
prepared for.

1663
00:49:49.650 --> 00:49:51.509
What can people do now so that in

1664
00:49:51.510 --> 00:49:53.529
the moment of choosing, they

1665
00:49:53.530 --> 00:49:55.389
choose to act rather than freeze

1666
00:49:55.390 --> 00:49:56.390
or look away?

1667
00:49:57.370 --> 00:50:00.269
Well, a lot of the stories begin

1668
00:50:00.270 --> 00:50:02.149
with the reason that so many

1669
00:50:02.150 --> 00:50:04.069
of our stories begin

1670
00:50:04.070 --> 00:50:05.969
with a moral collision is because

1671
00:50:05.970 --> 00:50:07.169
people are very clear on their

1672
00:50:07.170 --> 00:50:08.170
values.

1673
00:50:09.990 --> 00:50:12.189
And I think in this book,

1674
00:50:12.190 --> 00:50:14.169
Julia talked about people weighing

1675
00:50:14.170 --> 00:50:16.209
two kinds of fear against

1676
00:50:16.210 --> 00:50:17.769
each other.

1677
00:50:17.770 --> 00:50:19.609
We take really seriously

1678
00:50:19.610 --> 00:50:22.169
the fact that

1679
00:50:22.170 --> 00:50:24.629
following the

1680
00:50:24.630 --> 00:50:26.389
moral voice in your head.

1681
00:50:26.390 --> 00:50:28.309
Is not the more natural thing to

1682
00:50:28.310 --> 00:50:29.589
do.

1683
00:50:29.590 --> 00:50:30.590
It's,

1684
00:50:31.730 --> 00:50:33.689
there are a lot of reasons to not do

1685
00:50:33.690 --> 00:50:35.509
courageous things. That's why you

1686
00:50:35.510 --> 00:50:36.769
have to write a book about it.

1687
00:50:36.770 --> 00:50:37.809
And you have buy a book, and you

1688
00:50:37.810 --> 00:50:38.629
have to buy five books.

1689
00:50:38.630 --> 00:50:39.671
Thank you. Bye.

1690
00:50:42.460 --> 00:50:44.299
But I think there are

1691
00:50:44.300 --> 00:50:46.159
a few things that we

1692
00:50:46.160 --> 00:50:48.399
find. One is

1693
00:50:48.400 --> 00:50:51.419
the

1694
00:50:51.420 --> 00:50:53.359
moments in American history that

1695
00:50:53.360 --> 00:50:54.859
we associate with political courage

1696
00:50:54.860 --> 00:50:56.839
tend to be cinematic.

1697
00:50:56.840 --> 00:51:00.039
And that includes,

1698
00:51:00.040 --> 00:51:02.219
for example, the...

1699
00:51:03.770 --> 00:51:05.689
Lunch counter sit-ins in

1700
00:51:05.690 --> 00:51:07.609
the 1960s in the American

1701
00:51:07.610 --> 00:51:08.649
South.

1702
00:51:08.650 --> 00:51:10.769
What we write about in the book is

1703
00:51:10.770 --> 00:51:11.770
that

1704
00:51:12.830 --> 00:51:14.469
most Americans who were alive at

1705
00:51:14.470 --> 00:51:16.689
that time got Life Magazine

1706
00:51:16.690 --> 00:51:18.849
or saw the New York Times or saw

1707
00:51:18.850 --> 00:51:20.369
that the sit-in and the way that

1708
00:51:20.370 --> 00:51:22.349
people were being, you know,

1709
00:51:22.350 --> 00:51:23.869
had trash strewn on their head and

1710
00:51:23.870 --> 00:51:25.809
were getting beaten up and

1711
00:51:25.810 --> 00:51:27.069
had horrible things happening to

1712
00:51:27.070 --> 00:51:28.809
them as young people were trying to

1713
00:51:28.810 --> 00:51:31.309
desegregate the South.

1714
00:51:31.310 --> 00:51:32.569
What you don't see, what most

1715
00:51:32.570 --> 00:51:34.409
people, what nobody

1716
00:51:34.410 --> 00:51:36.329
saw then and few people see

1717
00:51:36.330 --> 00:51:38.149
now is the kind

1718
00:51:38.150 --> 00:51:39.209
of preparation that was happening

1719
00:51:39.210 --> 00:51:41.069
before that, which was that for

1720
00:51:41.070 --> 00:51:42.889
two years,

1721
00:51:42.890 --> 00:51:44.069
leading up to the lunch counter

1722
00:51:44.070 --> 00:51:45.929
sit-ins, young

1723
00:51:45.930 --> 00:51:47.789
people in Nashville and

1724
00:51:47.790 --> 00:51:49.369
across the South, but especially in

1725
00:51:49.370 --> 00:51:51.349
Nashville, sat in

1726
00:51:51.350 --> 00:51:52.909
a church basement on Tuesday nights

1727
00:51:52.910 --> 00:51:54.149
with Reverend Jim Lawson, who

1728
00:51:54.150 --> 00:51:55.229
eventually made his way to Los

1729
00:51:55.230 --> 00:51:56.510
Angeles, of course,

1730
00:51:59.610 --> 00:52:01.619
and learned together.

1731
00:52:01.620 --> 00:52:02.999
And prepared together and prepared

1732
00:52:03.000 --> 00:52:04.499
physically and prepared spiritually,

1733
00:52:04.500 --> 00:52:05.960
what do you do

1734
00:52:06.980 --> 00:52:09.079
to remain preternaturally

1735
00:52:09.080 --> 00:52:11.159
still when you have ashes being

1736
00:52:11.160 --> 00:52:12.899
strewn in your face?

1737
00:52:12.900 --> 00:52:15.319
So we hear about this, there's a

1738
00:52:15.320 --> 00:52:17.599
person, a nonviolent

1739
00:52:17.600 --> 00:52:19.399
strategic action trainer named

1740
00:52:19.400 --> 00:52:21.859
Nadine Bloch who

1741
00:52:21.860 --> 00:52:24.299
writes a lot of,

1742
00:52:24.300 --> 00:52:25.540
Jim Lawson, Nadine Block,

1743
00:52:26.980 --> 00:52:29.529
who's operationalized that lesson.

1744
00:52:29.530 --> 00:52:31.489
And there are trainings that you can

1745
00:52:31.490 --> 00:52:33.809
do and that we all should do in

1746
00:52:33.810 --> 00:52:35.669
Los Angeles and in other parts of

1747
00:52:35.670 --> 00:52:37.769
the United States for how

1748
00:52:37.770 --> 00:52:39.829
to actually show up at a protest and

1749
00:52:39.830 --> 00:52:41.889
also to find other

1750
00:52:41.890 --> 00:52:43.070
roles in a movement.

1751
00:52:44.210 --> 00:52:46.529
The other thing that you

1752
00:52:46.530 --> 00:52:48.129
could do to be ready is to be to

1753
00:52:48.130 --> 00:52:49.789
ready to...

1754
00:52:51.660 --> 00:52:53.579
Repurpose your networks.

1755
00:52:53.580 --> 00:52:54.819
This is another thing that we see

1756
00:52:54.820 --> 00:52:57.579
with some frequency, which is

1757
00:52:57.580 --> 00:52:59.139
people, as we said before, people

1758
00:52:59.140 --> 00:53:00.619
feel more emboldened to take

1759
00:53:00.620 --> 00:53:02.179
courageous action, to follow the

1760
00:53:02.180 --> 00:53:04.339
voice when they know that they have

1761
00:53:04.340 --> 00:53:06.579
a few other people, but those

1762
00:53:06.580 --> 00:53:07.419
people don't just have to be a group

1763
00:53:07.420 --> 00:53:09.219
of friends. It can also be networks

1764
00:53:09.220 --> 00:53:10.799
that you have created in other ways.

1765
00:53:10.800 --> 00:53:12.199
And we see this over and over in our

1766
00:53:12.200 --> 00:53:14.379
reporting of people repurposing

1767
00:53:14.380 --> 00:53:15.299
the communities that they already

1768
00:53:15.300 --> 00:53:17.419
have for this higher purpose of

1769
00:53:17.420 --> 00:53:18.439
activism.

1770
00:53:18.440 --> 00:53:20.859
And so, for example, the,

1771
00:53:20.860 --> 00:53:22.039
The people who helped bring down

1772
00:53:22.040 --> 00:53:23.040
communism

1773
00:53:24.520 --> 00:53:26.439
in Czechoslovakia, Václav Havel

1774
00:53:26.440 --> 00:53:28.799
and others, knew each other already

1775
00:53:28.800 --> 00:53:30.999
from other stuff before activism.

1776
00:53:31.000 --> 00:53:32.599
They were theater actors.

1777
00:53:33.960 --> 00:53:35.719
They were dramatists.

1778
00:53:35.720 --> 00:53:37.179
They were playwrights.

1779
00:53:37.180 --> 00:53:38.219
And so they'd been doing art

1780
00:53:38.220 --> 00:53:39.879
together for many, many years.

1781
00:53:39.880 --> 00:53:41.479
And so when the time came for them

1782
00:53:41.480 --> 00:53:42.819
to begin, when each of them

1783
00:53:42.820 --> 00:53:44.659
individually was sort of activated,

1784
00:53:44.660 --> 00:53:46.619
and when it came time for them

1785
00:53:46.620 --> 00:53:48.819
to stage these massive protests,

1786
00:53:48.820 --> 00:53:50.649
They...

1787
00:53:50.650 --> 00:53:51.889
Had that community that they could

1788
00:53:51.890 --> 00:53:52.969
repurpose.

1789
00:53:52.970 --> 00:53:53.890
But I would actually just say, I

1790
00:53:53.891 --> 00:53:55.869
think that most of our book

1791
00:53:56.950 --> 00:53:58.410
is in answer to this question.

1792
00:53:59.470 --> 00:54:00.969
And much of it has to do with our

1793
00:54:00.970 --> 00:54:02.169
community and tying our fate to

1794
00:54:02.170 --> 00:54:03.170
other people.

1795
00:54:04.150 --> 00:54:06.269
And there's also a chapter about the

1796
00:54:06.270 --> 00:54:07.270
Swiss cheese theory.

1797
00:54:09.360 --> 00:54:11.319
Being safe while you're doing it.

1798
00:54:11.320 --> 00:54:13.260
Okay, you are so fascinating.

1799
00:54:14.419 --> 00:54:16.639
We are toward the point in the

1800
00:54:16.640 --> 00:54:17.859
evening when I should be going to

1801
00:54:17.860 --> 00:54:19.179
the audience, but I still have a few

1802
00:54:19.180 --> 00:54:20.379
more important questions to ask both

1803
00:54:20.380 --> 00:54:21.559
of you. So try to keep your

1804
00:54:21.560 --> 00:54:24.339
questions less sandwichy.

1805
00:54:24.340 --> 00:54:25.499
Little smaller sandwich, you know

1806
00:54:25.500 --> 00:54:26.559
what I mean? Very small sandwich.

1807
00:54:26.560 --> 00:54:27.560
I know, I'm doing,

1808
00:54:29.060 --> 00:54:30.039
driving that into the ground.

1809
00:54:30.040 --> 00:54:31.939
Okay, I wanna

1810
00:54:31.940 --> 00:54:33.339
ask you, this is what I really

1811
00:54:33.340 --> 00:54:34.279
wanted to ask you. Based on

1812
00:54:34.280 --> 00:54:36.649
everything you've learned, Julia.

1813
00:54:36.650 --> 00:54:38.249
Do we currently have a healthy civil

1814
00:54:38.250 --> 00:54:40.169
resistance movement in the US, and

1815
00:54:40.170 --> 00:54:41.889
what are Americans doing right, and

1816
00:54:41.890 --> 00:54:42.890
where are we weak?

1817
00:54:45.020 --> 00:54:46.939
Yeah, I think we are doing

1818
00:54:46.940 --> 00:54:48.639
better than we think, but not as

1819
00:54:48.640 --> 00:54:50.099
well as we need to be.

1820
00:54:50.100 --> 00:54:52.019
So we have

1821
00:54:52.020 --> 00:54:54.279
proven to be very

1822
00:54:54.280 --> 00:54:56.239
collectively stubborn in ways

1823
00:54:56.240 --> 00:54:57.839
that I didn't expect, right?

1824
00:54:57.840 --> 00:54:59.559
I think Ami always makes this joke

1825
00:54:59.560 --> 00:55:01.059
that Americans are really good at

1826
00:55:01.060 --> 00:55:02.579
stubbornness and collective is where

1827
00:55:02.580 --> 00:55:04.079
we need work.

1828
00:55:04.080 --> 00:55:06.099
And we have seen a lot

1829
00:55:06.100 --> 00:55:08.139
of organizing where

1830
00:55:08.140 --> 00:55:09.959
people are getting together and

1831
00:55:09.960 --> 00:55:10.779
doing boycotts.

1832
00:55:10.780 --> 00:55:12.539
The boycott of Tesla was very

1833
00:55:12.540 --> 00:55:13.759
successful.

1834
00:55:13.760 --> 00:55:15.779
We have been seeing people

1835
00:55:15.780 --> 00:55:17.939
reaching out to the lawmakers and

1836
00:55:17.940 --> 00:55:19.959
finding new groups and

1837
00:55:19.960 --> 00:55:21.819
protesting, but

1838
00:55:21.820 --> 00:55:24.259
we need way more people involved.

1839
00:55:24.260 --> 00:55:26.599
It's really a truly a numbers game,

1840
00:55:26.600 --> 00:55:28.179
and most people in here probably

1841
00:55:28.180 --> 00:55:29.339
have heard the three and a half

1842
00:55:29.340 --> 00:55:31.419
percent figure about how

1843
00:55:31.420 --> 00:55:33.219
it's hard for an authoritarian

1844
00:55:33.220 --> 00:55:35.159
regime to

1845
00:55:35.160 --> 00:55:36.859
withstand when three and half

1846
00:55:36.860 --> 00:55:39.139
percent of the population mobilizes

1847
00:55:39.140 --> 00:55:41.099
in a sustained

1848
00:55:41.100 --> 00:55:42.259
way against it.

1849
00:55:42.260 --> 00:55:44.229
And we're We've had pretty

1850
00:55:44.230 --> 00:55:46.229
big numbers at No Kings, but

1851
00:55:46.230 --> 00:55:48.529
that needs to be something bigger.

1852
00:55:48.530 --> 00:55:50.689
That needs to a general strike.

1853
00:55:50.690 --> 00:55:52.529
That needs more things

1854
00:55:52.530 --> 00:55:54.669
need to be stopped.

1855
00:55:54.670 --> 00:55:56.589
Like, we're not gonna comply.

1856
00:55:56.590 --> 00:55:57.809
We're not, you know, the way that

1857
00:55:57.810 --> 00:56:00.069
Minnesota is prosecuting

1858
00:56:00.070 --> 00:56:02.329
the ICE agents, like more

1859
00:56:02.330 --> 00:56:04.329
consequences need to exacted.

1860
00:56:04.330 --> 00:56:06.209
And that, what that requires is

1861
00:56:06.210 --> 00:56:07.269
public support.

1862
00:56:07.270 --> 00:56:08.829
And what it means is people need to

1863
00:56:08.830 --> 00:56:10.670
do more than just doom scroll.

1864
00:56:12.070 --> 00:56:13.949
And go to one protest every

1865
00:56:13.950 --> 00:56:15.049
once in a while.

1866
00:56:15.050 --> 00:56:16.729
But they don't have to do hard

1867
00:56:16.730 --> 00:56:18.469
things. I mean, one of the things I

1868
00:56:18.470 --> 00:56:20.509
find endlessly fascinating is

1869
00:56:20.510 --> 00:56:22.449
that so many of our dissidents just

1870
00:56:22.450 --> 00:56:24.189
started by passing out water

1871
00:56:24.190 --> 00:56:24.969
bottles, right?

1872
00:56:24.970 --> 00:56:27.189
Nathan Law, a Hong Kong

1873
00:56:27.190 --> 00:56:29.369
leading dissident who was

1874
00:56:29.370 --> 00:56:31.229
a leader of the Umbrella Revolution,

1875
00:56:31.230 --> 00:56:33.649
now in exile in London, when he

1876
00:56:33.650 --> 00:56:36.589
started protesting against China,

1877
00:56:36.590 --> 00:56:38.449
he was at his college and they

1878
00:56:38.450 --> 00:56:39.469
asked, how do you want to be

1879
00:56:39.470 --> 00:56:40.389
involved in the protest? To one of

1880
00:56:40.390 --> 00:56:41.369
the front lines.

1881
00:56:41.370 --> 00:56:42.509
Do you wanna be in the middle of the

1882
00:56:42.510 --> 00:56:43.549
pack or do you wanna in the back

1883
00:56:43.550 --> 00:56:44.669
passing out water bottles?

1884
00:56:44.670 --> 00:56:46.589
No risk. And he wrote, no

1885
00:56:46.590 --> 00:56:47.909
risk water bottles on his little

1886
00:56:47.910 --> 00:56:48.809
form.

1887
00:56:48.810 --> 00:56:50.009
But what happened is when he went

1888
00:56:50.010 --> 00:56:52.029
there and saw what was happening,

1889
00:56:52.030 --> 00:56:53.589
he got involved and got a little bit

1890
00:56:53.590 --> 00:56:54.909
more interested in helping because

1891
00:56:54.910 --> 00:56:57.149
he saw his fellow

1892
00:56:57.150 --> 00:56:58.289
students and they were being beaten

1893
00:56:58.290 --> 00:56:59.169
by the police and he was like, this

1894
00:56:59.170 --> 00:57:00.769
is wrong. I don't want this to

1895
00:57:00.770 --> 00:57:02.169
happen. I wanna be with them.

1896
00:57:02.170 --> 00:57:03.719
And so there's a.

1897
00:57:03.720 --> 00:57:05.639
Way to participate that, and this

1898
00:57:05.640 --> 00:57:07.679
is the same story of this woman I

1899
00:57:07.680 --> 00:57:09.499
profile who was a volunteer in

1900
00:57:09.500 --> 00:57:10.779
front of the ICE Detention Center in

1901
00:57:10.780 --> 00:57:12.259
Newark, New Jersey.

1902
00:57:12.260 --> 00:57:14.279
She is, she started just

1903
00:57:14.280 --> 00:57:16.119
going there to help pass

1904
00:57:16.120 --> 00:57:17.519
out water bottles and then

1905
00:57:17.520 --> 00:57:19.059
eventually is like the leading

1906
00:57:19.060 --> 00:57:21.319
translator runs an entire network of

1907
00:57:21.320 --> 00:57:23.279
volunteers who are feeding the

1908
00:57:23.280 --> 00:57:25.139
families of the detainees.

1909
00:57:25.140 --> 00:57:26.959
And so it doesn't have to

1910
00:57:26.960 --> 00:57:28.579
be that hard. You can just go and

1911
00:57:28.580 --> 00:57:30.089
help and care for someone.

1912
00:57:30.090 --> 00:57:31.809
And I think one of the things is,

1913
00:57:31.810 --> 00:57:32.889
people think it has to be this

1914
00:57:32.890 --> 00:57:34.889
really brave thing, but caring for

1915
00:57:34.890 --> 00:57:36.369
the people that the administration

1916
00:57:36.370 --> 00:57:38.749
wants you to not care about is

1917
00:57:38.750 --> 00:57:40.069
courageous.

1918
00:57:40.070 --> 00:57:42.349
And so I always like to say, caring

1919
00:57:42.350 --> 00:57:44.189
is courage, and we all have the

1920
00:57:44.190 --> 00:57:45.049
capacity for that.

1921
00:57:45.050 --> 00:57:46.629
That's beautiful.

1922
00:57:46.630 --> 00:57:48.469
I want you to talk about coalition a

1923
00:57:48.470 --> 00:57:49.849
little bit. And I think of

1924
00:57:49.850 --> 00:57:51.709
coalition, I see the problem of

1925
00:57:51.710 --> 00:57:53.869
coalition which is so

1926
00:57:53.870 --> 00:57:55.769
many people I interview and talk to

1927
00:57:55.770 --> 00:57:57.109
wanna cancel anybody who doesn't

1928
00:57:57.110 --> 00:57:58.969
have 100% of their same views

1929
00:57:58.970 --> 00:58:00.749
and doesn't wanna be in coalition

1930
00:58:00.750 --> 00:58:02.489
with them, which is a problem.

1931
00:58:02.490 --> 00:58:03.669
But there's also this other

1932
00:58:03.670 --> 00:58:05.609
challenge of when you know

1933
00:58:05.610 --> 00:58:07.549
you shouldn't be in coalition with

1934
00:58:07.550 --> 00:58:09.429
someone. As a political scientist

1935
00:58:09.430 --> 00:58:10.689
and having done this research, do

1936
00:58:10.690 --> 00:58:11.749
you have any insight?

1937
00:58:11.750 --> 00:58:12.909
I'm not a political scientists.

1938
00:58:12.910 --> 00:58:13.969
Oh, you're not, what are you, a

1939
00:58:13.970 --> 00:58:14.909
political strategist? Yes.

1940
00:58:14.910 --> 00:58:15.269
Strategists? Yes. Strategist?

1941
00:58:15.270 --> 00:58:16.229
I'm just political.

1942
00:58:16.230 --> 00:58:17.230
OK, you're political.

1943
00:58:19.330 --> 00:58:20.330
Smart.

1944
00:58:21.770 --> 00:58:24.229
I think this is our last

1945
00:58:24.230 --> 00:58:25.549
chapter.

1946
00:58:25.550 --> 00:58:26.469
There's a reason it's the last

1947
00:58:26.470 --> 00:58:28.349
chapter where we talk

1948
00:58:28.350 --> 00:58:29.269
about this.

1949
00:58:29.270 --> 00:58:30.989
This is what Julia, I wanted to put

1950
00:58:30.990 --> 00:58:31.789
it earlier in the book.

1951
00:58:31.790 --> 00:58:33.210
Julia wanted to later in the books.

1952
00:58:34.770 --> 00:58:36.309
Julia was right.

1953
00:58:36.310 --> 00:58:38.209
And she calls it dissident

1954
00:58:38.210 --> 00:58:39.589
grad school.

1955
00:58:39.590 --> 00:58:41.609
And I think it should go later,

1956
00:58:41.610 --> 00:58:43.489
but it is because you have to do all

1957
00:58:43.490 --> 00:58:44.779
the sort of.

1958
00:58:44.780 --> 00:58:46.139
You've got to get there first.

1959
00:58:46.140 --> 00:58:47.559
But what do you do when it's time to

1960
00:58:47.560 --> 00:58:48.379
expand your movement?

1961
00:58:48.380 --> 00:58:49.819
What do you when it time to do what

1962
00:58:49.820 --> 00:58:51.139
Julia just articulated, which is

1963
00:58:51.140 --> 00:58:54.099
win, like have enough people to win?

1964
00:58:54.100 --> 00:58:55.100
If.

1965
00:58:56.150 --> 00:58:58.009
Your movement begins in a political

1966
00:58:58.010 --> 00:58:59.449
home, if your activism begins in

1967
00:58:59.450 --> 00:59:01.549
political home that is

1968
00:59:01.550 --> 00:59:03.289
small enough, big enough, just to

1969
00:59:03.290 --> 00:59:05.029
fit a few people with your values,

1970
00:59:05.030 --> 00:59:06.009
you're only gonna succeed if you get

1971
00:59:06.010 --> 00:59:07.889
big enough to include many more

1972
00:59:07.890 --> 00:59:08.890
people.

1973
00:59:09.430 --> 00:59:11.269
And don't take our word for

1974
00:59:11.270 --> 00:59:13.089
it, I mean take like actual

1975
00:59:13.090 --> 00:59:14.809
political scientists' words for it

1976
00:59:14.810 --> 00:59:16.769
that this is what we see

1977
00:59:16.770 --> 00:59:18.609
over and over and again that

1978
00:59:18.610 --> 00:59:20.729
at this point,

1979
00:59:20.730 --> 00:59:23.089
in the last several decades,

1980
00:59:23.090 --> 00:59:25.049
Virtually no country that has begun

1981
00:59:25.050 --> 00:59:26.029
the process of democratic

1982
00:59:26.030 --> 00:59:27.869
backsliding,

1983
00:59:27.870 --> 00:59:29.729
by which we mean

1984
00:59:29.730 --> 00:59:31.749
a leader comes to

1985
00:59:31.750 --> 00:59:33.729
power and begins to hollow out

1986
00:59:33.730 --> 00:59:35.869
and erode democratic institutions,

1987
00:59:35.870 --> 00:59:38.089
much like we're seeing right now,

1988
00:59:38.090 --> 00:59:39.290
and checks and balances, et cetera.

1989
00:59:40.350 --> 00:59:42.269
Almost no country gets out of

1990
00:59:42.270 --> 00:59:44.089
that without a massive, big

1991
00:59:44.090 --> 00:59:45.629
tent, broad-based coalition.

1992
00:59:48.470 --> 00:59:50.469
Brazil successfully did

1993
00:59:50.470 --> 00:59:51.470
it a couple of years ago.

1994
00:59:52.840 --> 00:59:54.339
Poland has done it.

1995
00:59:54.340 --> 00:59:55.799
We've seen it in several parts of

1996
00:59:55.800 --> 00:59:56.800
Africa.

1997
00:59:58.430 --> 00:59:59.949
And we've seen it in other parts of

1998
00:59:59.950 --> 01:00:00.950
the world.

1999
01:00:01.690 --> 01:00:03.769
We just saw it in Hungary, to your

2000
01:00:03.770 --> 01:00:04.770
initial question.

2001
01:00:06.150 --> 01:00:08.569
And I think that we understand on

2002
01:00:08.570 --> 01:00:10.549
the American left, broadly,

2003
01:00:10.550 --> 01:00:11.389
that we're going to have to do

2004
01:00:11.390 --> 01:00:12.369
something like this. But when it

2005
01:00:12.370 --> 01:00:13.909
actually comes down to it, you see

2006
01:00:13.910 --> 01:00:15.229
exactly what you just described.

2007
01:00:17.210 --> 01:00:18.589
There's another political scientist

2008
01:00:18.590 --> 01:00:20.189
at Harvard named Erika Chenoweth,

2009
01:00:21.390 --> 01:00:23.269
whose research

2010
01:00:23.270 --> 01:00:25.149
Julia just referenced, who says

2011
01:00:25.150 --> 01:00:27.169
that Getting a backsliding democracy

2012
01:00:27.170 --> 01:00:29.269
out of backslide and back

2013
01:00:29.270 --> 01:00:31.269
onto the path to

2014
01:00:31.270 --> 01:00:33.569
being a strong republic is

2015
01:00:33.570 --> 01:00:34.910
like getting a Jeep out of the mud.

2016
01:00:35.970 --> 01:00:38.269
Doesn't matter who

2017
01:00:38.270 --> 01:00:40.449
gathers around the Jeep.

2018
01:00:40.450 --> 01:00:42.109
It doesn't matter why you're

2019
01:00:42.110 --> 01:00:43.269
pulling, why the people are pulling

2020
01:00:43.270 --> 01:00:44.229
the Jeep, you just gotta get the Jeep

2021
01:00:44.230 --> 01:00:46.089
out the mud, that's a

2022
01:00:46.090 --> 01:00:47.090
binary question.

2023
01:00:48.130 --> 01:00:50.309
Do we want a constitutional

2024
01:00:50.310 --> 01:00:51.569
republic? Do we wanna multiracial

2025
01:00:51.570 --> 01:00:53.209
democracy or do we not want that?

2026
01:00:55.060 --> 01:00:56.339
The question that you're asking

2027
01:00:56.340 --> 01:00:58.219
about, Jessica,

2028
01:00:58.220 --> 01:00:59.919
is sort of a question of red lines,

2029
01:00:59.920 --> 01:01:02.179
which is sometimes

2030
01:01:02.180 --> 01:01:04.059
not everybody really wants to pull

2031
01:01:04.060 --> 01:01:05.759
the same Jeep out of the mud.

2032
01:01:07.840 --> 01:01:09.769
If... If the

2033
01:01:09.770 --> 01:01:11.649
Jeep, just to really

2034
01:01:11.650 --> 01:01:12.650
kill the metaphor,

2035
01:01:13.830 --> 01:01:16.629
if what you want is

2036
01:01:16.630 --> 01:01:19.649
not a country that

2037
01:01:19.650 --> 01:01:20.789
treats every person with equal

2038
01:01:20.790 --> 01:01:22.189
dignity, if you think that some

2039
01:01:22.190 --> 01:01:23.669
people are more deserving than other

2040
01:01:23.670 --> 01:01:26.509
people, if you that you're

2041
01:01:26.510 --> 01:01:28.309
sort of comfortable with trans

2042
01:01:28.310 --> 01:01:30.249
people not being part of the

2043
01:01:30.250 --> 01:01:32.049
equation, comfortable with Jews not

2044
01:01:32.050 --> 01:01:33.050
being part the equation.

2045
01:01:34.750 --> 01:01:35.749
Then we're not talking about the

2046
01:01:35.750 --> 01:01:36.750
same thing here.

2047
01:01:37.820 --> 01:01:39.799
And what we see over and

2048
01:01:39.800 --> 01:01:41.899
over and over again is

2049
01:01:41.900 --> 01:01:44.019
that the people who

2050
01:01:44.020 --> 01:01:45.839
are able to pull the Jeep out of the

2051
01:01:45.840 --> 01:01:46.840
mud.

2052
01:01:48.480 --> 01:01:50.579
In one sense or another, remain

2053
01:01:50.580 --> 01:01:52.639
in conversation with each other.

2054
01:01:52.640 --> 01:01:54.619
They continue to figure

2055
01:01:54.620 --> 01:01:56.279
out what they can work with, each

2056
01:01:56.280 --> 01:01:57.280
other on.

2057
01:01:58.360 --> 01:02:00.359
But sometimes they're red lines.

2058
01:02:00.360 --> 01:02:02.179
And this is why we always come

2059
01:02:02.180 --> 01:02:03.180
back to values,

2060
01:02:04.300 --> 01:02:06.059
that it's not just a question of

2061
01:02:06.060 --> 01:02:07.399
morality, although that's certainly

2062
01:02:07.400 --> 01:02:08.579
relevant. It's also a question

2063
01:02:08.580 --> 01:02:10.699
pragmatics, which is

2064
01:02:10.700 --> 01:02:13.639
if you're

2065
01:02:13.640 --> 01:02:15.519
organizing with somebody else and

2066
01:02:15.520 --> 01:02:16.639
then you do get the jeep out of the

2067
01:02:16.640 --> 01:02:18.019
mud, Then you're gonna have to

2068
01:02:18.020 --> 01:02:20.069
govern And if the mandate

2069
01:02:20.070 --> 01:02:21.909
is muddled,

2070
01:02:21.910 --> 01:02:23.289
then you're just gonna end up back

2071
01:02:23.290 --> 01:02:24.409
where you started. And so we see

2072
01:02:24.410 --> 01:02:26.709
that all

2073
01:02:26.710 --> 01:02:27.710
over the world.

2074
01:02:30.040 --> 01:02:31.399
So Julia, a lot of people are hoping

2075
01:02:31.400 --> 01:02:33.379
that if Democrats win the midterms,

2076
01:02:33.380 --> 01:02:34.979
then they'll be back in power.

2077
01:02:34.980 --> 01:02:36.239
They'll check Trump and this will

2078
01:02:36.240 --> 01:02:38.039
all really recede.

2079
01:02:38.040 --> 01:02:39.799
What have you learned from your

2080
01:02:39.800 --> 01:02:41.839
research about whether elections

2081
01:02:41.840 --> 01:02:43.879
can on their own, get us

2082
01:02:43.880 --> 01:02:45.919
out of this trend

2083
01:02:45.920 --> 01:02:47.060
into authoritarianism?

2084
01:02:48.760 --> 01:02:50.479
Yeah, election, people who talk to

2085
01:02:50.480 --> 01:02:52.159
me about the elections and I just

2086
01:02:52.160 --> 01:02:53.319
look at them like, what do you think

2087
01:02:53.320 --> 01:02:54.399
is happening here?

2088
01:02:54.400 --> 01:02:56.079
Like that's not how this goes.

2089
01:02:56.080 --> 01:02:57.719
Like you don't just, unless you have

2090
01:02:57.720 --> 01:03:00.939
a massive landslide,

2091
01:03:00.940 --> 01:03:02.759
but the way you get that is with

2092
01:03:02.760 --> 01:03:04.599
a giant civil resistance movement.

2093
01:03:04.600 --> 01:03:06.839
And so we

2094
01:03:06.840 --> 01:03:08.719
are not going to get out of this

2095
01:03:08.720 --> 01:03:10.699
through just the midterms,

2096
01:03:10.700 --> 01:03:11.719
which I think a lot of people have

2097
01:03:11.720 --> 01:03:13.699
some fantasies about, in

2098
01:03:13.700 --> 01:03:15.659
fact, one thing that we

2099
01:03:15.660 --> 01:03:17.429
did in the book that.

2100
01:03:17.430 --> 01:03:19.269
Not everyone has noticed as we never

2101
01:03:19.270 --> 01:03:21.169
use the name Trump,

2102
01:03:21.170 --> 01:03:23.279
not once, because We

2103
01:03:23.280 --> 01:03:24.959
don't see this as a Trump problem.

2104
01:03:24.960 --> 01:03:26.579
Like this is not, this isn't a

2105
01:03:26.580 --> 01:03:28.399
global authoritarian

2106
01:03:28.400 --> 01:03:29.259
movement.

2107
01:03:29.260 --> 01:03:31.579
It's rising around the world.

2108
01:03:31.580 --> 01:03:33.539
It is sweeping the

2109
01:03:33.540 --> 01:03:34.799
globe.

2110
01:03:34.800 --> 01:03:36.839
And democracies are the least

2111
01:03:36.840 --> 01:03:37.959
common form of government than

2112
01:03:37.960 --> 01:03:40.199
they've ever been in the past 70

2113
01:03:40.200 --> 01:03:41.119
years.

2114
01:03:41.120 --> 01:03:43.039
And the US just lost its

2115
01:03:43.040 --> 01:03:45.439
status as a liberal democracy.

2116
01:03:45.440 --> 01:03:47.499
So we are gonna have to do

2117
01:03:47.500 --> 01:03:49.319
a lot more than elections.

2118
01:03:49.320 --> 01:03:50.979
We are going to have to be

2119
01:03:50.980 --> 01:03:53.329
collectively unwilling

2120
01:03:53.330 --> 01:03:55.389
to participate in the corruption and

2121
01:03:55.390 --> 01:03:57.809
lawlessness that are

2122
01:03:57.810 --> 01:03:59.289
endemic to authoritarian regimes.

2123
01:04:00.460 --> 01:04:02.119
And do you wanna make a point about

2124
01:04:02.120 --> 01:04:03.979
how things are going so far that a

2125
01:04:03.980 --> 01:04:05.639
lot, you made it earlier, but I

2126
01:04:05.640 --> 01:04:07.659
know. You think you covered that?

2127
01:04:07.660 --> 01:04:08.249
No, I mean, I guess.

2128
01:04:08.250 --> 01:04:10.149
Because I just think we are

2129
01:04:10.150 --> 01:04:11.709
doing, we're doing the right things.

2130
01:04:11.710 --> 01:04:13.229
One thing I'm really proud of is

2131
01:04:13.230 --> 01:04:14.829
that there's been like a real

2132
01:04:14.830 --> 01:04:16.609
commitment to non-violence in all of

2133
01:04:16.610 --> 01:04:18.469
the movements, but we

2134
01:04:18.470 --> 01:04:20.009
just need many, many more people

2135
01:04:20.010 --> 01:04:21.299
involved.

2136
01:04:21.300 --> 01:04:22.679
And last question to you, Ami, and

2137
01:04:22.680 --> 01:04:24.279
then all of y'all can ask your

2138
01:04:24.280 --> 01:04:26.359
questions, so start thinking.

2139
01:04:26.360 --> 01:04:27.739
When dissidents look back and they

2140
01:04:27.740 --> 01:04:29.679
talk to you about what they regret,

2141
01:04:29.680 --> 01:04:31.699
was there a common theme and what

2142
01:04:31.700 --> 01:04:32.700
should we know?

2143
01:04:33.850 --> 01:04:35.369
I just wrote a piece about this in

2144
01:04:35.370 --> 01:04:37.449
The Bulwark, another

2145
01:04:37.450 --> 01:04:38.390
independent media organization.

2146
01:04:38.391 --> 01:04:39.409
Yes, fabulous.

2147
01:04:39.410 --> 01:04:40.410
I love it.

2148
01:04:42.910 --> 01:04:44.789
And it was kind of a bid to get

2149
01:04:44.790 --> 01:04:45.749
Republicans to read the book, but I

2150
01:04:45.750 --> 01:04:47.129
don't know if they're going to do it.

2151
01:04:48.210 --> 01:04:49.210
Probably not.

2152
01:04:51.450 --> 01:04:53.429
The regret we hear over and over

2153
01:04:53.430 --> 01:04:55.609
and over again from people.

2154
01:04:55.610 --> 01:04:56.610
We heard this from.

2155
01:04:59.550 --> 01:05:00.989
Andrei Pivovarov, who was the head

2156
01:05:00.990 --> 01:05:03.209
of Open Russia, a massive

2157
01:05:03.210 --> 01:05:05.249
Russian opposition group who

2158
01:05:05.250 --> 01:05:07.329
became a political prisoner and

2159
01:05:07.330 --> 01:05:08.709
was released in the exchange that

2160
01:05:08.710 --> 01:05:10.889
President Biden made happen

2161
01:05:10.890 --> 01:05:12.289
in 2024.

2162
01:05:12.290 --> 01:05:14.429
We heard this from Nathan Law,

2163
01:05:14.430 --> 01:05:15.469
the leader, one of the leaders of

2164
01:05:15.470 --> 01:05:17.389
the Umbrella Revolution in Hong

2165
01:05:17.390 --> 01:05:19.349
Kong, who Julia just talked about,

2166
01:05:19.350 --> 01:05:21.189
and from Freddie Guevara,

2167
01:05:21.190 --> 01:05:22.649
who was a member of the opposition

2168
01:05:22.650 --> 01:05:24.489
in Venezuela. All of them told us,

2169
01:05:24.490 --> 01:05:26.669
in some form or another, that

2170
01:05:26.670 --> 01:05:29.899
they were too rigid in

2171
01:05:29.900 --> 01:05:31.839
who they were willing to work with,

2172
01:05:31.840 --> 01:05:33.659
and they were too rigid in

2173
01:05:33.660 --> 01:05:35.219
their messaging approach.

2174
01:05:36.960 --> 01:05:39.059
They more than anything

2175
01:05:39.060 --> 01:05:41.299
regret using shame

2176
01:05:41.300 --> 01:05:42.879
as a strategy.

2177
01:05:42.880 --> 01:05:44.739
They said that shame as a

2178
01:05:44.740 --> 01:05:47.179
political strategy has extraordinary

2179
01:05:47.180 --> 01:05:48.239
limits.

2180
01:05:48.240 --> 01:05:50.759
And I think this is so important for

2181
01:05:50.760 --> 01:05:52.139
the American democracy movement

2182
01:05:52.140 --> 01:05:54.419
right now because we

2183
01:05:54.420 --> 01:05:57.079
are pissed off,

2184
01:05:57.080 --> 01:05:59.219
justifiably pissed off at

2185
01:05:59.220 --> 01:06:01.539
people who don't get it

2186
01:06:01.540 --> 01:06:03.479
or who seem to be callous enough

2187
01:06:04.980 --> 01:06:06.679
to sell their neighbors'

2188
01:06:07.860 --> 01:06:08.860
rights away.

2189
01:06:09.580 --> 01:06:11.600
And there's a lot to judge.

2190
01:06:13.060 --> 01:06:14.739
It's insane.

2191
01:06:14.740 --> 01:06:15.939
I mean, the things that we're

2192
01:06:15.940 --> 01:06:17.759
seeing, maybe

2193
01:06:17.760 --> 01:06:19.699
less in Los Angeles, but even in Los

2194
01:06:19.700 --> 01:06:21.679
Angles, people we know,

2195
01:06:21.680 --> 01:06:23.579
people who are part of our

2196
01:06:23.580 --> 01:06:25.479
communities, who can

2197
01:06:25.480 --> 01:06:27.259
look the other way as these

2198
01:06:27.260 --> 01:06:28.619
extraordinary human rights abuses

2199
01:06:28.620 --> 01:06:29.399
are happening.

2200
01:06:29.400 --> 01:06:30.800
Under our noses.

2201
01:06:32.910 --> 01:06:34.869
It is important, we learn from these

2202
01:06:34.870 --> 01:06:37.029
people, to use shame

2203
01:06:37.030 --> 01:06:39.249
as one of many tools

2204
01:06:39.250 --> 01:06:41.729
to try to move

2205
01:06:41.730 --> 01:06:43.569
political leaders.

2206
01:06:43.570 --> 01:06:45.489
You can use shame to

2207
01:06:45.490 --> 01:06:47.409
try to pressure the heads of major

2208
01:06:47.410 --> 01:06:49.549
corporations or Trump allies

2209
01:06:49.550 --> 01:06:51.149
or whoever it is to the extent to

2210
01:06:51.150 --> 01:06:52.310
which they still have any

2211
01:06:54.050 --> 01:06:56.309
into changing their behavior.

2212
01:06:56.310 --> 01:06:58.129
But when it comes to

2213
01:06:58.130 --> 01:06:59.569
trying to do the work that Julia

2214
01:06:59.570 --> 01:07:01.889
articulated before, which is growing

2215
01:07:01.890 --> 01:07:03.079
the movement.

2216
01:07:03.080 --> 01:07:04.919
And winning the narrative,

2217
01:07:04.920 --> 01:07:07.059
you can, there are just limits

2218
01:07:07.060 --> 01:07:09.059
to how people

2219
01:07:09.060 --> 01:07:10.899
are gonna move. And I'll just tell

2220
01:07:10.900 --> 01:07:13.120
one story, which is from

2221
01:07:15.920 --> 01:07:17.459
a leader of the Black Lives Matter

2222
01:07:17.460 --> 01:07:19.999
movement, Alicia Garza,

2223
01:07:20.000 --> 01:07:21.899
who is about as

2224
01:07:21.900 --> 01:07:23.179
hardcore as it gets in terms of

2225
01:07:23.180 --> 01:07:25.379
political activist, who says

2226
01:07:25.380 --> 01:07:27.820
that, she tells a story that,

2227
01:07:28.850 --> 01:07:30.929
met several years ago, she was at

2228
01:07:30.930 --> 01:07:33.289
a dinner that involved

2229
01:07:33.290 --> 01:07:36.069
trying to put liberal-minded

2230
01:07:36.070 --> 01:07:38.209
donors into the room

2231
01:07:38.210 --> 01:07:39.210
with.

2232
01:07:40.030 --> 01:07:41.409
With frontline activists.

2233
01:07:41.410 --> 01:07:42.289
And the point was that the

2234
01:07:42.290 --> 01:07:43.869
right-wing activist movement for

2235
01:07:43.870 --> 01:07:44.669
years and years and year has been

2236
01:07:44.670 --> 01:07:45.769
extraordinarily well funded by

2237
01:07:45.770 --> 01:07:47.229
everyone from the Koch brothers to

2238
01:07:47.230 --> 01:07:49.049
Chevron to everybody else, and

2239
01:07:49.050 --> 01:07:51.249
that the left was fledgling.

2240
01:07:51.250 --> 01:07:52.089
And so they put people in the room

2241
01:07:52.090 --> 01:07:53.090
together.

2242
01:07:54.170 --> 01:07:56.909
And during the dinner, one of

2243
01:07:56.910 --> 01:07:59.709
the liberal-minded

2244
01:07:59.710 --> 01:08:01.309
donors articulated something that

2245
01:08:01.310 --> 01:08:03.629
was awkward.

2246
01:08:03.630 --> 01:08:05.689
You can imagine the kind of thing.

2247
01:08:05.690 --> 01:08:08.229
And the response of one

2248
01:08:08.230 --> 01:08:09.329
of the activists in the room was

2249
01:08:09.330 --> 01:08:11.329
just to chide the donor until

2250
01:08:11.330 --> 01:08:12.589
she understood what she had gotten

2251
01:08:12.590 --> 01:08:13.669
wrong, the thing that she had said

2252
01:08:13.670 --> 01:08:15.549
that was too awkward or not woke

2253
01:08:15.550 --> 01:08:16.550
enough or whatever it was.

2254
01:08:18.610 --> 01:08:20.089
And predictably, the woman withdrew

2255
01:08:20.090 --> 01:08:21.809
and never involved herself again in

2256
01:08:21.810 --> 01:08:23.629
the pragmatic task of trying to fund

2257
01:08:23.630 --> 01:08:25.349
the movement, exactly as you would

2258
01:08:25.350 --> 01:08:27.569
expect. Has anyone ever

2259
01:08:27.570 --> 01:08:29.669
been shamed into doing

2260
01:08:29.670 --> 01:08:31.529
anything that, I mean,

2261
01:08:31.530 --> 01:08:32.530
don't answer that.

2262
01:08:34.710 --> 01:08:36.429
But she says that the point of this

2263
01:08:36.430 --> 01:08:39.129
the point of this story is

2264
01:08:39.130 --> 01:08:40.690
that shame has limits and

2265
01:08:42.290 --> 01:08:44.429
that the

2266
01:08:44.430 --> 01:08:46.289
You're only succeeding if your

2267
01:08:46.290 --> 01:08:47.869
radical spaces have non radical

2268
01:08:47.870 --> 01:08:49.789
people in them and we hear that

2269
01:08:49.790 --> 01:08:51.169
over and over from dissidents And I

2270
01:08:51.170 --> 01:08:52.929
think it needs to be an incredibly

2271
01:08:52.930 --> 01:08:53.889
important. I think of the way that

2272
01:08:53.890 --> 01:08:55.589
we grow our movements in the United

2273
01:08:55.590 --> 01:08:58.019
States Love these stories

2274
01:08:58.020 --> 01:08:59.939
I could keep talking, but I'd like

2275
01:08:59.940 --> 01:09:01.199
to allow all of you to ask

2276
01:09:01.200 --> 01:09:02.699
questions. I know that there are

2277
01:09:02.700 --> 01:09:04.639
runners who have mics, so I think

2278
01:09:04.640 --> 01:09:06.179
put up your hands if you have a

2279
01:09:06.180 --> 01:09:07.180
question.

2280
01:09:29.690 --> 01:09:31.229
You just have to hold it directly up

2281
01:09:31.230 --> 01:09:32.230
to your mouth.

2282
01:09:38.940 --> 01:09:39.839
Should I try to?

2283
01:09:39.840 --> 01:09:41.159
That works.

2284
01:09:41.160 --> 01:09:42.160
Good job.

2285
01:09:42.620 --> 01:09:44.059
My name is Isaac Lieberman.

2286
01:09:44.060 --> 01:09:45.579
I'm a renter nurse at a county

2287
01:09:45.580 --> 01:09:46.559
hospital.

2288
01:09:46.560 --> 01:09:48.640
I wanted to mention, oh, it works,

2289
01:09:49.980 --> 01:09:51.879
that Happily Lula in

2290
01:09:51.880 --> 01:09:54.239
Brazil is not Liz Cheney.

2291
01:09:55.870 --> 01:09:58.259
I think he's closer to

2292
01:09:58.260 --> 01:10:01.459
David Huerta, president of

2293
01:10:01.460 --> 01:10:02.699
SEIU California,

2294
01:10:03.720 --> 01:10:07.719
who today was

2295
01:10:07.720 --> 01:10:10.079
announced that charges against

2296
01:10:10.080 --> 01:10:12.399
him were dismissed, and

2297
01:10:12.400 --> 01:10:14.639
his lawyer on

2298
01:10:14.640 --> 01:10:16.479
the podcast I

2299
01:10:16.480 --> 01:10:18.419
was listening to said,

2300
01:10:18.420 --> 01:10:19.939
we lawyers, we in the courts, and

2301
01:10:19.940 --> 01:10:21.799
often hopefully more judges are

2302
01:10:21.800 --> 01:10:23.339
holding the government accountable

2303
01:10:23.340 --> 01:10:24.619
for what they did.

2304
01:10:24.620 --> 01:10:26.659
Today is a good example, and

2305
01:10:26.660 --> 01:10:29.159
I wanted to scream no.

2306
01:10:29.160 --> 01:10:31.079
You haven't held anybody

2307
01:10:31.080 --> 01:10:33.099
accountable.

2308
01:10:33.100 --> 01:10:34.939
The officers who arrested

2309
01:10:34.940 --> 01:10:36.859
all the way up to

2310
01:10:36.860 --> 01:10:38.779
the heads of the agencies.

2311
01:10:38.780 --> 01:10:40.259
And the president.

2312
01:10:40.260 --> 01:10:42.159
We have one battle after another, we

2313
01:10:42.160 --> 01:10:44.199
run from one to the next,

2314
01:10:44.200 --> 01:10:46.039
but nobody in the upper

2315
01:10:46.040 --> 01:10:48.379
echelons are ever held accountable.

2316
01:10:48.380 --> 01:10:50.539
Why do they not go

2317
01:10:50.540 --> 01:10:52.739
after them, try to

2318
01:10:52.740 --> 01:10:54.579
investigate and

2319
01:10:54.580 --> 01:10:55.819
prosecute them?

2320
01:10:55.820 --> 01:10:57.839
Is there anything we can do in our

2321
01:10:57.840 --> 01:10:59.679
movements to wake people up

2322
01:10:59.680 --> 01:11:01.519
and push so

2323
01:11:01.520 --> 01:11:03.839
that all of the people involved

2324
01:11:03.840 --> 01:11:06.199
up and down that ladder

2325
01:11:06.200 --> 01:11:08.179
are think twice before

2326
01:11:08.180 --> 01:11:10.219
they abuse their power and

2327
01:11:10.220 --> 01:11:12.319
abuse our civil rights again.

2328
01:11:13.610 --> 01:11:15.469
Yeah, that's a great question.

2329
01:11:15.470 --> 01:11:17.629
It's something that is

2330
01:11:17.630 --> 01:11:19.449
grappled with a lot

2331
01:11:19.450 --> 01:11:21.229
in what they call transitional

2332
01:11:21.230 --> 01:11:22.009
justice, right?

2333
01:11:22.010 --> 01:11:24.289
After an authoritarian regime and

2334
01:11:24.290 --> 01:11:26.249
as a country struggles

2335
01:11:26.250 --> 01:11:28.889
to emerge from it,

2336
01:11:28.890 --> 01:11:30.749
there's often a period of

2337
01:11:30.750 --> 01:11:33.049
accountability. We have seen these

2338
01:11:33.050 --> 01:11:34.969
terminals around

2339
01:11:34.970 --> 01:11:36.789
the world that attempt

2340
01:11:36.790 --> 01:11:39.009
to account for the crimes that

2341
01:11:39.010 --> 01:11:40.010
have been committed.

2342
01:11:41.770 --> 01:11:43.809
The scholarship on this

2343
01:11:43.810 --> 01:11:45.649
is interesting because it

2344
01:11:45.650 --> 01:11:47.829
seems that the

2345
01:11:47.830 --> 01:11:49.229
dictators themselves almost always

2346
01:11:49.230 --> 01:11:50.189
get away with it.

2347
01:11:50.190 --> 01:11:52.569
They have a habit of dying while

2348
01:11:52.570 --> 01:11:54.649
waiting for trial of

2349
01:11:54.650 --> 01:11:55.650
heart attacks.

2350
01:11:56.610 --> 01:11:57.610
But.

2351
01:11:58.240 --> 01:12:00.919
But there's something healing.

2352
01:12:00.920 --> 01:12:02.039
Priscilla Hayner writes about this

2353
01:12:02.040 --> 01:12:04.099
in her book, which

2354
01:12:04.100 --> 01:12:05.419
I forgot the name of, but about

2355
01:12:05.420 --> 01:12:07.059
transitional justice.

2356
01:12:07.060 --> 01:12:09.299
And she says there's healing

2357
01:12:09.300 --> 01:12:11.239
about just

2358
01:12:11.240 --> 01:12:13.339
putting down the account, writing it

2359
01:12:13.340 --> 01:12:16.659
down, and acknowledging

2360
01:12:16.660 --> 01:12:18.119
what was happening.

2361
01:12:18.120 --> 01:12:20.059
And so some of the work right

2362
01:12:20.060 --> 01:12:22.499
now is about witnessing and

2363
01:12:22.500 --> 01:12:24.619
keeping track of the crimes so

2364
01:12:24.620 --> 01:12:26.079
that there can be an accounting

2365
01:12:26.080 --> 01:12:27.149
afterwards.

2366
01:12:27.150 --> 01:12:28.809
As a healing moment.

2367
01:12:28.810 --> 01:12:30.189
I will say in Hungary, there's some

2368
01:12:30.190 --> 01:12:32.129
pretty incredible accounting going

2369
01:12:32.130 --> 01:12:33.629
on.

2370
01:12:33.630 --> 01:12:35.210
So Peter Magyar, when he won, he

2371
01:12:35.211 --> 01:12:37.009
like, he was like, okay, I'm

2372
01:12:37.010 --> 01:12:38.469
cleaning house.

2373
01:12:38.470 --> 01:12:40.509
I mean, he turned off

2374
01:12:40.510 --> 01:12:41.769
the TV station.

2375
01:12:41.770 --> 01:12:43.569
It's black right now.

2376
01:12:43.570 --> 01:12:45.889
You turn on the TV and it says,

2377
01:12:45.890 --> 01:12:47.849
this channel used to be filled

2378
01:12:47.850 --> 01:12:49.269
with lies.

2379
01:12:49.270 --> 01:12:51.269
We are creating a new one

2380
01:12:51.270 --> 01:12:52.789
that will bring you facts.

2381
01:12:52.790 --> 01:12:54.709
Right? Like he is on

2382
01:12:54.710 --> 01:12:56.689
it. And we'll see how this

2383
01:12:56.690 --> 01:12:58.529
works, but like that is the

2384
01:12:58.530 --> 01:13:00.449
kind of thing that is

2385
01:13:00.450 --> 01:13:02.409
needed to

2386
01:13:02.410 --> 01:13:04.009
account for the crimes, because I

2387
01:13:04.010 --> 01:13:05.349
agree with you that people don't

2388
01:13:05.350 --> 01:13:07.329
feel like justice has

2389
01:13:07.330 --> 01:13:09.489
been served if if

2390
01:13:09.490 --> 01:13:10.669
their victimhood hasn't been

2391
01:13:10.670 --> 01:13:12.489
acknowledged, right?

2392
01:13:12.490 --> 01:13:14.429
I would just add two

2393
01:13:14.430 --> 01:13:15.469
things to this.

2394
01:13:15.470 --> 01:13:17.069
One, you know who's really good at

2395
01:13:17.070 --> 01:13:18.909
making lists the

2396
01:13:18.910 --> 01:13:20.909
right? They make lists of

2397
01:13:20.910 --> 01:13:23.549
the university professors

2398
01:13:23.550 --> 01:13:25.089
who've said the wrong things.

2399
01:13:25.090 --> 01:13:27.029
They make list of the DEI

2400
01:13:27.030 --> 01:13:27.869
hires.

2401
01:13:27.870 --> 01:13:29.689
I mean, just like canary

2402
01:13:29.690 --> 01:13:31.610
mission, really bad lists.

2403
01:13:32.630 --> 01:13:33.730
But it works.

2404
01:13:34.790 --> 01:13:36.849
So we can make lists too,

2405
01:13:36.850 --> 01:13:38.709
as Julia is pointing out, and we

2406
01:13:38.710 --> 01:13:39.589
need to make lists.

2407
01:13:39.590 --> 01:13:40.449
I know there are people who are doing that,

2408
01:13:40.450 --> 01:13:41.649
but our movements ought to be doing

2409
01:13:41.650 --> 01:13:42.650
it also.

2410
01:13:43.620 --> 01:13:45.879
The other thing I'll just say is

2411
01:13:45.880 --> 01:13:47.779
we are going

2412
01:13:47.780 --> 01:13:49.679
to have a presidential primary

2413
01:13:49.680 --> 01:13:50.619
soon.

2414
01:13:50.620 --> 01:13:51.620
And

2415
01:13:53.260 --> 01:13:55.299
I am watching to see

2416
01:13:55.300 --> 01:13:57.359
whether we

2417
01:13:57.360 --> 01:14:00.419
can make the question of

2418
01:14:00.420 --> 01:14:02.239
transitional justice, a truth

2419
01:14:02.240 --> 01:14:03.759
and reconciliation commission, and

2420
01:14:03.760 --> 01:14:05.599
accounting a

2421
01:14:05.600 --> 01:14:06.959
central piece.

2422
01:14:06.960 --> 01:14:08.399
We all know what the sort of central

2423
01:14:08.400 --> 01:14:10.359
binary questions are gonna be,

2424
01:14:10.360 --> 01:14:11.360
right?

2425
01:14:11.440 --> 01:14:13.239
Gaza, is it a genocide?

2426
01:14:13.240 --> 01:14:15.039
Medicare for all, are you for it,

2427
01:14:15.040 --> 01:14:16.319
are against it?

2428
01:14:16.320 --> 01:14:18.119
We've seen that the, whatever you

2429
01:14:18.120 --> 01:14:20.119
think on these questions, there

2430
01:14:20.120 --> 01:14:21.120
is a.

2431
01:14:22.100 --> 01:14:24.339
There is a political toolkit of

2432
01:14:24.340 --> 01:14:26.019
things that can be done to force the

2433
01:14:26.020 --> 01:14:27.899
question in a binary way.

2434
01:14:27.900 --> 01:14:30.159
So I would like to see our

2435
01:14:30.160 --> 01:14:32.199
movements do the same thing

2436
01:14:32.200 --> 01:14:33.200
on this question.

2437
01:14:34.540 --> 01:14:36.859
Can you commit right now to

2438
01:14:36.860 --> 01:14:38.859
not do the Gerald

2439
01:14:38.860 --> 01:14:40.739
Ford to Richard Nixon, the let's all

2440
01:14:40.740 --> 01:14:42.379
move on thing?

2441
01:14:42.380 --> 01:14:43.679
Will you commit to a Truth and

2442
01:14:43.680 --> 01:14:44.979
Reconciliation Commission?

2443
01:14:44.980 --> 01:14:46.059
Because everyone from Stephen

2444
01:14:46.060 --> 01:14:47.979
Miller, and like,

2445
01:14:47.980 --> 01:14:49.279
let's start with Stephen Miller

2446
01:14:49.280 --> 01:14:50.280
please.

2447
01:14:51.280 --> 01:14:53.379
All the way on down needs

2448
01:14:53.380 --> 01:14:54.499
to be held accountable.

2449
01:14:54.500 --> 01:14:56.999
And I cannot imagine voting for

2450
01:14:57.000 --> 01:14:58.799
a Democratic presidential candidate

2451
01:14:58.800 --> 01:14:59.800
who can't commit to that.

2452
01:15:15.490 --> 01:15:17.209
Thank you very, very much, very

2453
01:15:17.210 --> 01:15:19.949
informative. I'm glad I came here.

2454
01:15:19.950 --> 01:15:21.409
I'm from Santa Monica, live right

2455
01:15:21.410 --> 01:15:23.529
across the street from where Stephen

2456
01:15:23.530 --> 01:15:24.690
Miller went to high school.

2457
01:15:29.730 --> 01:15:31.549
My name is Jerry Rubin, but no

2458
01:15:31.550 --> 01:15:33.949
relation to the late 60s activists,

2459
01:15:33.950 --> 01:15:35.150
we had become friends.

2460
01:15:40.100 --> 01:15:42.079
I agree with almost everything you

2461
01:15:42.080 --> 01:15:43.080
say.

2462
01:15:44.650 --> 01:15:47.449
But I think it's important that we

2463
01:15:47.450 --> 01:15:49.349
emphasize how important

2464
01:15:49.350 --> 01:15:52.249
it is to vote along

2465
01:15:52.250 --> 01:15:53.289
with all the other things.

2466
01:15:53.290 --> 01:15:54.509
And I wouldn't get ahead of

2467
01:15:54.510 --> 01:15:55.909
ourselves.

2468
01:15:55.910 --> 01:15:57.909
We don't have to decide who the

2469
01:15:57.910 --> 01:15:59.409
nominee is gonna be for the

2470
01:15:59.410 --> 01:16:02.189
Democratic Party until

2471
01:16:02.190 --> 01:16:04.849
we finish our job

2472
01:16:04.850 --> 01:16:06.969
and successfully,

2473
01:16:06.970 --> 01:16:08.989
hopefully, take over the House and

2474
01:16:08.990 --> 01:16:12.049
Senate in the midterm elections.

2475
01:16:12.050 --> 01:16:14.249
So I urge everyone to vote blue.

2476
01:16:14.250 --> 01:16:16.730
And not fight amongst ourselves.

2477
01:16:18.230 --> 01:16:20.569
You know, it took women 70 years

2478
01:16:20.570 --> 01:16:21.930
to get the right to vote.

2479
01:16:22.970 --> 01:16:24.889
So one of the things we always have

2480
01:16:24.890 --> 01:16:26.889
to remember in our

2481
01:16:26.890 --> 01:16:28.769
struggle is never give

2482
01:16:28.770 --> 01:16:29.949
up.

2483
01:16:29.950 --> 01:16:33.069
Never give up and make that a

2484
01:16:33.070 --> 01:16:35.269
personal, personal thing

2485
01:16:35.270 --> 01:16:37.589
in your whole life.

2486
01:16:37.590 --> 01:16:39.689
I'm 82 years old now.

2487
01:16:39.690 --> 01:16:42.409
And remember, carriage is

2488
01:16:42.410 --> 01:16:45.139
not. Overcoming fear,

2489
01:16:45.140 --> 01:16:47.199
but it's being willing to act even

2490
01:16:47.200 --> 01:16:49.100
in spite of the fear.

2491
01:16:50.640 --> 01:16:52.019
Absolutely do it.

2492
01:16:52.020 --> 01:16:53.639
Thank you very much.

2493
01:16:53.640 --> 01:16:55.019
I just want to say I'm not disparaging

2494
01:16:55.020 --> 01:16:56.739
voting I'm only just saying it's

2495
01:16:56.740 --> 01:16:58.739
necessary but not sufficient

2496
01:16:58.740 --> 01:17:00.599
But hundred percent agree with

2497
01:17:00.600 --> 01:17:02.969
you and thank you for coming

2498
01:17:02.970 --> 01:17:04.809
So along the lines

2499
01:17:04.810 --> 01:17:06.709
of accountability that you were

2500
01:17:06.710 --> 01:17:07.749
talking about earlier,

2501
01:17:09.130 --> 01:17:11.029
I'm wondering if we do

2502
01:17:11.030 --> 01:17:13.129
have a filibuster-proof

2503
01:17:13.130 --> 01:17:15.069
majority in the Senate and 2028

2504
01:17:15.070 --> 01:17:17.469
House president, all that stuff.

2505
01:17:17.470 --> 01:17:18.869
One thing that you've alluded to and

2506
01:17:18.870 --> 01:17:20.789
a lot of commentators about what

2507
01:17:20.790 --> 01:17:22.069
the current administration has done

2508
01:17:22.070 --> 01:17:24.069
is expose a lot weaknesses

2509
01:17:24.070 --> 01:17:26.129
in our democratic system

2510
01:17:26.130 --> 01:17:28.329
that we never knew we had because

2511
01:17:28.330 --> 01:17:30.369
someone had never tried to violate

2512
01:17:30.370 --> 01:17:32.209
the things that had been violated

2513
01:17:32.210 --> 01:17:34.129
along. Among a long list

2514
01:17:34.130 --> 01:17:35.169
what you mentioned too about

2515
01:17:35.170 --> 01:17:37.429
university funding and

2516
01:17:37.430 --> 01:17:39.509
other ways of

2517
01:17:39.510 --> 01:17:41.769
going against congressional

2518
01:17:41.770 --> 01:17:43.729
mandates which the executive power

2519
01:17:43.730 --> 01:17:45.069
never had before.

2520
01:17:45.070 --> 01:17:47.129
So with that in mind, if there

2521
01:17:47.130 --> 01:17:49.589
is a reform based individual

2522
01:17:49.590 --> 01:17:51.669
in power with the backing to

2523
01:17:51.670 --> 01:17:53.509
make changes, what do

2524
01:17:53.510 --> 01:17:55.269
you think structurally should be

2525
01:17:55.270 --> 01:17:57.249
changed that has been exposed as

2526
01:17:57.250 --> 01:17:59.329
weaknesses, be it voting

2527
01:17:59.330 --> 01:18:01.549
rights, be it uh...

2528
01:18:01.550 --> 01:18:03.569
Anything else but executive power on

2529
01:18:03.570 --> 01:18:04.649
a federal basis

2530
01:18:07.600 --> 01:18:09.319
Well, that's a big ask, and there's

2531
01:18:09.320 --> 01:18:10.779
a lot of people working really hard

2532
01:18:10.780 --> 01:18:12.319
on that question right now and

2533
01:18:12.320 --> 01:18:15.139
trying to envision what a

2534
01:18:15.140 --> 01:18:16.339
revitalization of our democracy

2535
01:18:16.340 --> 01:18:18.199
could look like.

2536
01:18:18.200 --> 01:18:19.879
And this is definitely more Ami's

2537
01:18:19.880 --> 01:18:21.019
space than mine, but I'm just going

2538
01:18:21.020 --> 01:18:22.919
to say that the thing that

2539
01:18:22.920 --> 01:18:24.840
I think undercuts all of this is

2540
01:18:26.560 --> 01:18:28.959
money, corporate money,

2541
01:18:28.960 --> 01:18:29.960
and corporate impunity.

2542
01:18:30.780 --> 01:18:31.859
Sometimes when we talk about

2543
01:18:31.860 --> 01:18:33.739
democracy versus authoritarianism,

2544
01:18:34.750 --> 01:18:36.589
I find that the younger people don't

2545
01:18:36.590 --> 01:18:39.209
really resonate with that because

2546
01:18:39.210 --> 01:18:41.089
democracy implies

2547
01:18:41.090 --> 01:18:43.009
some things like due process

2548
01:18:43.010 --> 01:18:44.849
and rights

2549
01:18:44.850 --> 01:18:46.709
and agency that they're

2550
01:18:46.710 --> 01:18:48.649
already not experiencing in a

2551
01:18:48.650 --> 01:18:50.689
world that is so incredibly

2552
01:18:50.690 --> 01:18:52.549
mediated by the

2553
01:18:52.550 --> 01:18:54.509
private sector and by oligarchs and

2554
01:18:54.510 --> 01:18:56.829
billionaires. And so I think that

2555
01:18:56.830 --> 01:18:59.089
if I have one thing that

2556
01:18:59.090 --> 01:19:00.969
I want is

2557
01:19:00.970 --> 01:19:02.899
to fix that system.

2558
01:19:02.900 --> 01:19:04.919
I know Ami has a longer rush list.

2559
01:19:06.600 --> 01:19:09.059
Well, I would just say that

2560
01:19:09.060 --> 01:19:10.919
we,

2561
01:19:10.920 --> 01:19:11.920
the institutions

2562
01:19:12.780 --> 01:19:14.719
that the Democratic Party

2563
01:19:14.720 --> 01:19:17.019
is in,

2564
01:19:17.020 --> 01:19:18.719
is, ready for this one?

2565
01:19:18.720 --> 01:19:19.720
Sitting Shiva for.

2566
01:19:22.470 --> 01:19:23.470
Um,

2567
01:19:25.450 --> 01:19:26.909
we're okay,

2568
01:19:27.910 --> 01:19:28.910
but...

2569
01:19:29.800 --> 01:19:32.279
I think that a lot,

2570
01:19:32.280 --> 01:19:33.399
fewer people would have voted for

2571
01:19:33.400 --> 01:19:35.219
Trump, would have

2572
01:19:35.220 --> 01:19:37.159
elected him, well, he's

2573
01:19:37.160 --> 01:19:38.619
been elected what, three times now

2574
01:19:38.620 --> 01:19:39.779
he says?

2575
01:19:39.780 --> 01:19:41.339
Yeah, three time.

2576
01:19:41.340 --> 01:19:42.519
I think a lot fewer people would

2577
01:19:42.520 --> 01:19:43.559
have voting for Trump.

2578
01:19:43.560 --> 01:19:45.239
I think we would have been much less

2579
01:19:45.240 --> 01:19:47.099
at risk of authoritarianism

2580
01:19:47.100 --> 01:19:49.139
and this backslide

2581
01:19:49.140 --> 01:19:51.179
had those institutions been

2582
01:19:51.180 --> 01:19:52.180
working.

2583
01:19:53.860 --> 01:19:55.349
And, so.

2584
01:19:55.350 --> 01:19:56.849
There are things that we need to do.

2585
01:19:56.850 --> 01:19:58.769
I think there are various models

2586
01:19:58.770 --> 01:20:00.029
of Supreme Court reform that we can

2587
01:20:00.030 --> 01:20:01.469
look at. There are things, that

2588
01:20:01.470 --> 01:20:03.589
again, to Joe Biden's credit,

2589
01:20:03.590 --> 01:20:05.169
if I'm allowed to say that these

2590
01:20:05.170 --> 01:20:06.170
days,

2591
01:20:07.190 --> 01:20:09.009
that... He, his administration,

2592
01:20:09.010 --> 01:20:10.229
the administration I was part of,

2593
01:20:10.230 --> 01:20:12.049
tried to do early, but because

2594
01:20:12.050 --> 01:20:13.269
of Manchin and Sinema, were not able

2595
01:20:13.270 --> 01:20:17.809
to do, including a

2596
01:20:17.810 --> 01:20:19.369
lot of voting rights things,

2597
01:20:20.930 --> 01:20:22.349
including rebuilding the Voting

2598
01:20:22.350 --> 01:20:23.489
Rights Act, which has been chipped

2599
01:20:23.490 --> 01:20:25.369
away at, to the point

2600
01:20:25.370 --> 01:20:27.289
where it's essentially defunct at

2601
01:20:27.290 --> 01:20:28.290
this point.

2602
01:20:30.230 --> 01:20:31.149
That we've seen all the

2603
01:20:31.150 --> 01:20:32.069
gerrymandering stuff that's

2604
01:20:32.070 --> 01:20:34.069
happening in this country

2605
01:20:34.070 --> 01:20:35.070
right now.

2606
01:20:36.090 --> 01:20:37.989
And then I think it would be

2607
01:20:37.990 --> 01:20:39.989
helpful to add a couple of, to

2608
01:20:39.990 --> 01:20:41.909
enfranchise a couple of

2609
01:20:41.910 --> 01:20:43.849
places that are not yet states in

2610
01:20:43.850 --> 01:20:44.649
the Electoral College. I think we

2611
01:20:44.650 --> 01:20:45.509
should get rid of the Electorial

2612
01:20:45.510 --> 01:20:47.029
College. I mean, these are all

2613
01:20:47.030 --> 01:20:48.030
low-hanging fruit,

2614
01:20:49.330 --> 01:20:51.229
but tough to do without what

2615
01:20:51.230 --> 01:20:52.469
you just described.

2616
01:20:52.470 --> 01:20:53.829
But I just, I really, really think

2617
01:20:53.830 --> 01:20:55.329
it's important, just two things.

2618
01:20:55.330 --> 01:20:57.549
One, two,

2619
01:20:59.020 --> 01:21:01.579
just make government work,

2620
01:21:01.580 --> 01:21:02.679
like.

2621
01:21:02.680 --> 01:21:04.539
A lot of people were able to

2622
01:21:04.540 --> 01:21:06.379
get their health care slashed

2623
01:21:06.380 --> 01:21:08.139
really, really easily during the

2624
01:21:08.140 --> 01:21:09.219
big, beautiful bill.

2625
01:21:09.220 --> 01:21:10.379
And there are a lot of who are

2626
01:21:10.380 --> 01:21:12.559
living on the margins who the

2627
01:21:12.560 --> 01:21:13.679
institutions were never serving to

2628
01:21:13.680 --> 01:21:14.999
begin with. And so we need to be

2629
01:21:15.000 --> 01:21:16.619
very honest about that.

2630
01:21:16.620 --> 01:21:18.939
The second thing is something that

2631
01:21:18.940 --> 01:21:21.499
Ruth Ben-Giott, who's an amazing

2632
01:21:21.500 --> 01:21:23.439
scholar, I think maybe

2633
01:21:23.440 --> 01:21:26.539
she is from here also,

2634
01:21:26.540 --> 01:21:27.819
talks about what we need in this

2635
01:21:27.820 --> 01:21:30.069
country as a values renaissance.

2636
01:21:30.070 --> 01:21:31.969
Which is that we can talk about

2637
01:21:31.970 --> 01:21:33.849
these reforms we ought to make

2638
01:21:33.850 --> 01:21:35.589
and use power if we have it.

2639
01:21:35.590 --> 01:21:36.509
I think that's the thing that Democrats

2640
01:21:36.510 --> 01:21:37.729
don't do, we get power and then we

2641
01:21:37.730 --> 01:21:39.789
kinda like talk about it and

2642
01:21:39.790 --> 01:21:41.389
admire it and look at it on the wall

2643
01:21:41.390 --> 01:21:43.329
and go, that's like really nice

2644
01:21:43.330 --> 01:21:45.509
power and then it's gone suddenly

2645
01:21:45.510 --> 01:21:46.829
and then, we haven't used it yet, so

2646
01:21:46.830 --> 01:21:47.669
we have to use it.

2647
01:21:47.670 --> 01:21:48.549
But we also need a values

2648
01:21:48.550 --> 01:21:50.429
renaissance. We need to be

2649
01:21:50.430 --> 01:21:52.609
talking about using words

2650
01:21:52.610 --> 01:21:53.769
that describe what we want the

2651
01:21:53.770 --> 01:21:55.009
country to be like and what we wanna

2652
01:21:55.010 --> 01:21:56.949
our social bonds to be, and then

2653
01:21:56.950 --> 01:21:58.789
to be much more honest

2654
01:21:58.790 --> 01:22:00.529
and open about them in the way that.

2655
01:22:00.530 --> 01:22:01.989
We've seen modeled in very dark ways

2656
01:22:01.990 --> 01:22:02.990
on the other side.

2657
01:22:07.110 --> 01:22:08.949
Hello, I am

2658
01:22:08.950 --> 01:22:10.550
a purple-haired leftist.

2659
01:22:12.450 --> 01:22:14.189
I just graduated high school.

2660
01:22:14.190 --> 01:22:15.989
I'm here with my friends.

2661
01:22:15.990 --> 01:22:21.769
And I have organized

2662
01:22:21.770 --> 01:22:24.069
a protest with my school.

2663
01:22:24.070 --> 01:22:25.929
And we protested

2664
01:22:25.930 --> 01:22:27.929
at Wilshire Building over ICE and

2665
01:22:27.930 --> 01:22:29.169
things like that.

2666
01:22:29.170 --> 01:22:30.929
Um, what?

2667
01:22:30.930 --> 01:22:33.189
Would you say is the role for

2668
01:22:33.190 --> 01:22:35.109
young people when it comes to

2669
01:22:35.110 --> 01:22:36.969
finding authoritarian because every

2670
01:22:36.970 --> 01:22:38.769
single day I wake up I scroll my

2671
01:22:38.770 --> 01:22:40.749
phone and I see something else that

2672
01:22:40.750 --> 01:22:42.669
really really hurts me

2673
01:22:42.670 --> 01:22:44.549
like to see that is happening in my

2674
01:22:44.550 --> 01:22:46.089
lifetime that is happening in my

2675
01:22:46.090 --> 01:22:47.949
sister's lifetime things like

2676
01:22:47.950 --> 01:22:49.969
that so what have you seen

2677
01:22:49.970 --> 01:22:51.749
from like your interviews or just

2678
01:22:51.750 --> 01:22:53.709
like um out of like personal

2679
01:22:53.710 --> 01:22:55.669
like life experience like what

2680
01:22:55.670 --> 01:22:57.869
would you like something

2681
01:22:57.870 --> 01:22:59.849
that youth can take advantage of

2682
01:22:59.850 --> 01:23:01.819
in order to like make a change in

2683
01:23:01.820 --> 01:23:02.820
And yeah.

2684
01:23:04.410 --> 01:23:06.309
Well, traditionally, students have

2685
01:23:06.310 --> 01:23:08.249
been the vanguard of most

2686
01:23:08.250 --> 01:23:09.469
anti-authoritarian movements.

2687
01:23:10.490 --> 01:23:12.689
And one thing that's been really,

2688
01:23:12.690 --> 01:23:14.889
really hard to watch here

2689
01:23:14.890 --> 01:23:18.349
in the United States is how

2690
01:23:18.350 --> 01:23:20.249
campus protest was so

2691
01:23:20.250 --> 01:23:22.749
incredibly draconianly

2692
01:23:22.750 --> 01:23:24.689
shut down in the past few

2693
01:23:24.690 --> 01:23:27.649
years in a way that I

2694
01:23:27.650 --> 01:23:28.929
couldn't have imagined ever seeing

2695
01:23:28.930 --> 01:23:31.249
in my lifetime. And so,

2696
01:23:31.250 --> 01:23:33.589
I want to just applaud you for...

2697
01:23:33.590 --> 01:23:35.489
Doing it anyways, because

2698
01:23:35.490 --> 01:23:37.909
this is our First Amendment right?

2699
01:23:37.910 --> 01:23:40.869
Peaceful protest, and so

2700
01:23:40.870 --> 01:23:42.669
it's really, I'm so proud of you for

2701
01:23:42.670 --> 01:23:44.609
doing that, and I think the

2702
01:23:44.610 --> 01:23:46.169
most important thing to do is keep

2703
01:23:46.170 --> 01:23:48.589
doing it, because the

2704
01:23:48.590 --> 01:23:50.569
whole point of an

2705
01:23:50.570 --> 01:23:52.769
authoritarian regime is to

2706
01:23:52.770 --> 01:23:54.609
do some selective

2707
01:23:54.610 --> 01:23:57.209
violence or

2708
01:23:57.210 --> 01:23:59.089
consequences that scare

2709
01:23:59.090 --> 01:24:01.129
everyone else into not doing the

2710
01:24:01.130 --> 01:24:02.009
protest, right?

2711
01:24:02.010 --> 01:24:03.269
And so that is what happened, right?

2712
01:24:03.270 --> 01:24:04.729
There were all these students.

2713
01:24:04.730 --> 01:24:07.049
My daughter was at Columbia,

2714
01:24:07.050 --> 01:24:09.029
you know, they arrested the student

2715
01:24:09.030 --> 01:24:11.009
journalists. They expelled students

2716
01:24:11.010 --> 01:24:12.209
for being part of protests, right.

2717
01:24:12.210 --> 01:24:13.609
These were shocking.

2718
01:24:13.610 --> 01:24:15.409
And then everybody stopped.

2719
01:24:15.410 --> 01:24:17.229
And that's the wrong response.

2720
01:24:17.230 --> 01:24:19.169
The right response is to keep doing

2721
01:24:19.170 --> 01:24:20.829
it because they actually cannot

2722
01:24:20.830 --> 01:24:21.769
expel all of you.

2723
01:24:21.770 --> 01:24:23.349
They would have no money left.

2724
01:24:23.350 --> 01:24:25.409
And they would cannot put you

2725
01:24:25.410 --> 01:24:27.289
all in jail for writing about

2726
01:24:27.290 --> 01:24:28.469
the protests or being part of the

2727
01:24:28.470 --> 01:24:29.289
protests because it was peaceful.

2728
01:24:29.290 --> 01:24:31.229
And eventually this they will be

2729
01:24:31.230 --> 01:24:32.309
thrown out, those cases will be

2730
01:24:32.310 --> 01:24:33.229
throw out.

2731
01:24:33.230 --> 01:24:34.769
So the most important thing is to

2732
01:24:34.770 --> 01:24:36.129
not succumb to the fear, which

2733
01:24:36.130 --> 01:24:37.749
you're already succeeding at.

2734
01:24:37.750 --> 01:24:38.789
And then the next most important

2735
01:24:38.790 --> 01:24:40.169
thing is recruit 10 more people,

2736
01:24:40.170 --> 01:24:41.249
which you already brought with you.

2737
01:24:41.250 --> 01:24:43.089
So you're winning on all fronts.

2738
01:24:43.090 --> 01:24:44.090
What?

2739
01:24:47.810 --> 01:24:49.509
What's your name?

2740
01:24:49.510 --> 01:24:50.510
Dariana.

2741
01:24:52.770 --> 01:24:55.129
Thank you so much for coming.

2742
01:24:55.130 --> 01:24:56.669
I'm really, really, really, really

2743
01:24:56.670 --> 01:24:57.829
glad that you're here and that all

2744
01:24:57.830 --> 01:24:58.749
of you are here. And that the rest

2745
01:24:58.750 --> 01:24:59.950
of you were here, but mostly Dariana

2746
01:25:02.730 --> 01:25:04.569
There is a statistic that

2747
01:25:04.570 --> 01:25:06.769
we found in our research,

2748
01:25:06.770 --> 01:25:09.589
which I was really

2749
01:25:09.590 --> 01:25:11.549
surprised by, which

2750
01:25:11.550 --> 01:25:13.469
the question that

2751
01:25:13.470 --> 01:25:15.009
sociologists at the University of

2752
01:25:15.010 --> 01:25:16.249
Arizona in 2005 were trying to

2753
01:25:16.250 --> 01:25:18.169
figure out was, what

2754
01:25:18.170 --> 01:25:19.589
is the number one determinant of

2755
01:25:19.590 --> 01:25:21.529
whether somebody comes to a protest?

2756
01:25:21.530 --> 01:25:22.649
Actually, whether they do something

2757
01:25:22.650 --> 01:25:24.029
politically risky, but let's say it

2758
01:25:24.030 --> 01:25:25.030
comes to protest.

2759
01:25:25.850 --> 01:25:27.030
So, do you know what it is?

2760
01:25:28.250 --> 01:25:30.289
So it's not.

2761
01:25:30.290 --> 01:25:32.009
Someone's educational status, or

2762
01:25:32.010 --> 01:25:34.849
age, or race, or gender,

2763
01:25:34.850 --> 01:25:36.009
the number one determinant about

2764
01:25:36.010 --> 01:25:37.489
whether somebody decides to take on

2765
01:25:37.490 --> 01:25:39.549
political risk is

2766
01:25:39.550 --> 01:25:41.049
whether they have been asked.

2767
01:25:42.810 --> 01:25:43.949
Huh.

2768
01:25:43.950 --> 01:25:44.950
Wow.

2769
01:25:45.960 --> 01:25:49.239
You, all of you

2770
01:25:49.240 --> 01:25:51.899
have social connection.

2771
01:25:51.900 --> 01:25:53.979
You have friends, I, at least a few.

2772
01:25:55.400 --> 01:25:57.719
And it sounds so

2773
01:25:57.720 --> 01:26:00.399
simplistic, but it is not.

2774
01:26:00.400 --> 01:26:03.119
You have extraordinary power.

2775
01:26:03.120 --> 01:26:04.939
You have, in a world where people

2776
01:26:04.940 --> 01:26:06.939
are feeling adrift,

2777
01:26:06.940 --> 01:26:08.879
in a moment when people are

2778
01:26:08.880 --> 01:26:10.319
feeling disconnected from each

2779
01:26:10.320 --> 01:26:11.979
other, from political reality, or

2780
01:26:11.980 --> 01:26:13.939
people are feel pessimistic, Being

2781
01:26:13.940 --> 01:26:14.749
a person who...

2782
01:26:14.750 --> 01:26:16.849
Just knows your values

2783
01:26:16.850 --> 01:26:19.129
and is

2784
01:26:19.130 --> 01:26:20.629
socially connected is an

2785
01:26:20.630 --> 01:26:22.449
unbelievable superpower.

2786
01:26:22.450 --> 01:26:24.289
So the thing that you can do is

2787
01:26:24.290 --> 01:26:25.609
to keep doing this, as Julia has

2788
01:26:25.610 --> 01:26:27.649
said, but also

2789
01:26:27.650 --> 01:26:29.629
help the people who come

2790
01:26:29.630 --> 01:26:31.909
into your orbit, rack

2791
01:26:31.910 --> 01:26:34.069
up little political wins.

2792
01:26:34.070 --> 01:26:35.449
Those things can be small, but then

2793
01:26:35.450 --> 01:26:36.629
it's exhilarating and it's

2794
01:26:36.630 --> 01:26:37.689
addictive. If you ever want

2795
01:26:37.690 --> 01:26:39.569
anything, you know that it feels

2796
01:26:39.570 --> 01:26:40.469
really, really good.

2797
01:26:40.470 --> 01:26:42.069
And so.

2798
01:26:42.070 --> 01:26:43.509
Whether you're going to school next

2799
01:26:43.510 --> 01:26:44.409
year, you're gonna work next year.

2800
01:26:44.410 --> 01:26:46.429
Whatever it is that you're doing,

2801
01:26:46.430 --> 01:26:48.309
just look around and it

2802
01:26:48.310 --> 01:26:49.569
doesn't always have to be ICE.

2803
01:26:49.570 --> 01:26:50.989
I mean, it should be ICE because

2804
01:26:50.990 --> 01:26:53.229
they're fascists,

2805
01:26:53.230 --> 01:26:55.649
but also it

2806
01:26:55.650 --> 01:26:57.609
should just be like,

2807
01:26:57.610 --> 01:26:59.030
what is this dorm need?

2808
01:27:00.370 --> 01:27:02.749
Or what is the

2809
01:27:02.750 --> 01:27:04.289
camp I'm working at this summer

2810
01:27:04.290 --> 01:27:05.069
need?

2811
01:27:05.070 --> 01:27:06.889
Or what feels bad

2812
01:27:06.890 --> 01:27:08.389
for me and my fellow students?

2813
01:27:08.390 --> 01:27:10.049
And then just start making life

2814
01:27:10.050 --> 01:27:11.399
really, really hard.

2815
01:27:11.400 --> 01:27:13.299
For the people in charge.

2816
01:27:13.300 --> 01:27:14.459
And you can do that and it'll be

2817
01:27:14.460 --> 01:27:16.059
easier and easier to do when you

2818
01:27:16.060 --> 01:27:18.259
bring people on, but get specific

2819
01:27:18.260 --> 01:27:19.679
and be very clear on what it is that

2820
01:27:19.680 --> 01:27:20.799
you're trying to win and then when

2821
01:27:20.800 --> 01:27:21.839
you win those little things,

2822
01:27:21.840 --> 01:27:23.459
celebrate and then move on to the

2823
01:27:23.460 --> 01:27:24.460
next one.

2824
01:27:28.000 --> 01:27:29.000
Anyone else?

2825
01:27:29.940 --> 01:27:31.279
This is going to be a little bit of

2826
01:27:31.280 --> 01:27:32.280
a geeky question.

2827
01:27:33.620 --> 01:27:35.619
So I've been closely following an

2828
01:27:35.620 --> 01:27:36.619
issue with the Securities and

2829
01:27:36.620 --> 01:27:38.339
Exchange Commission, which is trying

2830
01:27:38.340 --> 01:27:40.439
to push for getting

2831
01:27:40.440 --> 01:27:42.399
rid of quarterly earnings in favor

2832
01:27:42.400 --> 01:27:44.579
of earnings twice a year,

2833
01:27:44.580 --> 01:27:46.219
companies, large public company,

2834
01:27:46.220 --> 01:27:48.139
well, any public company only

2835
01:27:48.140 --> 01:27:49.899
being able to do report earnings

2836
01:27:49.900 --> 01:27:51.319
twice a year instead of every

2837
01:27:51.320 --> 01:27:52.159
quarter.

2838
01:27:52.160 --> 01:27:54.699
And it's attracted over 180,000

2839
01:27:54.700 --> 01:27:57.169
letters from individuals.

2840
01:27:57.170 --> 01:27:58.989
And 99.5%

2841
01:27:58.990 --> 01:28:00.589
of those letters are against this

2842
01:28:00.590 --> 01:28:01.409
proposal.

2843
01:28:01.410 --> 01:28:03.669
I can't think of a single thing

2844
01:28:03.670 --> 01:28:05.829
anywhere in life like

2845
01:28:05.830 --> 01:28:06.669
99.

2846
01:28:06.670 --> 01:28:08.629
5% of people agree on.

2847
01:28:08.630 --> 01:28:09.969
And a fair number of those people

2848
01:28:09.970 --> 01:28:10.889
are Republicans.

2849
01:28:10.890 --> 01:28:11.829
They're saying, hey, this is my

2850
01:28:11.830 --> 01:28:14.069
money. I'm invested,

2851
01:28:14.070 --> 01:28:15.449
you know, don't do this.

2852
01:28:15.450 --> 01:28:17.309
I pay attention to this.

2853
01:28:17.310 --> 01:28:18.729
But how do you turn that into, like,

2854
01:28:18.730 --> 01:28:19.929
and the SEC, I mean, there was an

2855
01:28:19.930 --> 01:28:21.009
article in the Wall Street Journal

2856
01:28:21.010 --> 01:28:23.009
last week, I think, saying the SEC

2857
01:28:23.010 --> 01:28:24.189
is still gonna push forward with

2858
01:28:24.190 --> 01:28:26.069
this because the president wants it.

2859
01:28:26.070 --> 01:28:27.769
So how can they really go against

2860
01:28:27.770 --> 01:28:30.289
like, I mean, 180,000

2861
01:28:30.290 --> 01:28:32.669
people, you know,

2862
01:28:32.670 --> 01:28:34.069
including some large hedge funds.

2863
01:28:34.070 --> 01:28:35.609
It's not even just like, you now,

2864
01:28:35.610 --> 01:28:36.669
like grannies with money.

2865
01:28:36.670 --> 01:28:38.389
It's like institutional investors

2866
01:28:38.390 --> 01:28:39.349
and everything.

2867
01:28:39.350 --> 01:28:40.629
But how do you push again, like

2868
01:28:40.630 --> 01:28:42.889
99.5% of all people

2869
01:28:42.890 --> 01:28:44.409
who have written in are saying

2870
01:28:44.410 --> 01:28:45.669
they're against this and yet it's

2871
01:28:45.670 --> 01:28:47.039
still gonna.

2872
01:28:47.040 --> 01:28:48.779
Well, they're saying it's still

2873
01:28:48.780 --> 01:28:50.239
gonna go forward.

2874
01:28:50.240 --> 01:28:52.199
I believe it when I see it, okay?

2875
01:28:52.200 --> 01:28:53.639
The slush fund was gonna go forward

2876
01:28:53.640 --> 01:28:55.499
and it didn't go forward, there's a

2877
01:28:55.500 --> 01:28:57.379
lot of talk, okay, but it

2878
01:28:57.380 --> 01:28:59.299
is really hard actually to go

2879
01:28:59.300 --> 01:29:00.419
against the people.

2880
01:29:00.420 --> 01:29:01.999
And it's also really hard to go

2881
01:29:02.000 --> 01:29:03.619
against people with money, which is

2882
01:29:03.620 --> 01:29:05.359
one problem that they have here.

2883
01:29:05.360 --> 01:29:07.319
So I actually think, I believe

2884
01:29:07.320 --> 01:29:09.059
when I see it that to me sounds like

2885
01:29:09.060 --> 01:29:10.499
a very successful protest.

2886
01:29:10.500 --> 01:29:13.319
But divest

2887
01:29:13.320 --> 01:29:15.549
like make make

2888
01:29:15.550 --> 01:29:17.829
a list of the companies,

2889
01:29:17.830 --> 01:29:19.169
a public list, a scorecard of the

2890
01:29:19.170 --> 01:29:21.089
company's that, and say

2891
01:29:21.090 --> 01:29:23.169
like, here are

2892
01:29:23.170 --> 01:29:24.309
the good companies and here are bad

2893
01:29:24.310 --> 01:29:25.509
companies. And the bad companies are

2894
01:29:25.510 --> 01:29:27.549
the ones that aren't speaking

2895
01:29:27.550 --> 01:29:29.009
out against this and that are just

2896
01:29:29.010 --> 01:29:30.129
going along with the flow.

2897
01:29:30.130 --> 01:29:31.949
And the other ones are the one's

2898
01:29:31.950 --> 01:29:34.429
that are. And then organize

2899
01:29:34.430 --> 01:29:35.669
people to divest their money from

2900
01:29:35.670 --> 01:29:37.129
the companies that are in the bad

2901
01:29:37.130 --> 01:29:39.889
column. I just think that's

2902
01:29:39.890 --> 01:29:41.289
how this goes.

2903
01:29:41.290 --> 01:29:42.729
I mean, that doesn't mean that it's

2904
01:29:42.730 --> 01:29:43.969
gonna work, but this is when I

2905
01:29:43.970 --> 01:29:45.759
started it. At the very beginning by

2906
01:29:45.760 --> 01:29:47.579
saying, Rashad Robinson talks

2907
01:29:47.580 --> 01:29:48.539
about the difference between presence

2908
01:29:48.540 --> 01:29:49.759
and power.

2909
01:29:49.760 --> 01:29:51.559
Like what we're describing here is

2910
01:29:51.560 --> 01:29:52.819
presence, which is a lot of people

2911
01:29:52.820 --> 01:29:54.039
have made their voices heard, but we

2912
01:29:54.040 --> 01:29:56.299
still, we're in Schrodinger's

2913
01:29:56.300 --> 01:29:58.219
comment period or whatever, and

2914
01:29:58.220 --> 01:29:59.719
we don't know what's gonna happen.

2915
01:29:59.720 --> 01:30:01.319
But I do think that the more money

2916
01:30:01.320 --> 01:30:03.299
is divested and the more shaming,

2917
01:30:03.300 --> 01:30:04.840
this is where shame is helpful,

2918
01:30:06.460 --> 01:30:08.539
shame and money, divest

2919
01:30:08.540 --> 01:30:10.699
money, people

2920
01:30:10.700 --> 01:30:11.559
will come to heel.

2921
01:30:11.560 --> 01:30:12.799
I mean, that's just, that what

2922
01:30:12.800 --> 01:30:13.481
happens in a couple

2923
01:30:13.482 --> 01:30:14.709
Yeah, we have levers of power,

2924
01:30:14.710 --> 01:30:15.809
right, and we have to use every one

2925
01:30:15.810 --> 01:30:16.810
of them.

2926
01:30:19.060 --> 01:30:20.999
Not to make it seem so easy, it's

2927
01:30:21.000 --> 01:30:22.070
like it's a hard problem, but.

2928
01:30:24.680 --> 01:30:26.279
Thank you so much, you guys.

2929
01:30:26.280 --> 01:30:28.360
Really deeply appreciate you.

2930
01:30:29.460 --> 01:30:30.460
It's an honor.

2931
01:30:33.000 --> 01:30:34.819
A few things. One, what would

2932
01:30:34.820 --> 01:30:37.059
be the protest that

2933
01:30:37.060 --> 01:30:39.439
you personally would

2934
01:30:39.440 --> 01:30:42.259
say that we should do?

2935
01:30:42.260 --> 01:30:44.059
If you were to create a protest, you

2936
01:30:44.060 --> 01:30:45.860
personally, both of you.

2937
01:30:46.960 --> 01:30:49.079
And then you talked,

2938
01:30:49.080 --> 01:30:50.159
I took a lot of notes,

2939
01:30:51.180 --> 01:30:53.219
and one of the things that I have a

2940
01:30:53.220 --> 01:30:54.779
really difficult time with and maybe

2941
01:30:54.780 --> 01:30:56.399
you could help me with is the moral

2942
01:30:56.400 --> 01:30:57.400
collusion.

2943
01:30:58.880 --> 01:31:00.899
When I look at the big, beautiful

2944
01:31:00.900 --> 01:31:03.099
bill and

2945
01:31:03.100 --> 01:31:05.019
the military police

2946
01:31:05.020 --> 01:31:06.339
contract for ICE,

2947
01:31:07.660 --> 01:31:09.579
those contracts collectively

2948
01:31:09.580 --> 01:31:11.599
are more than the army,

2949
01:31:11.600 --> 01:31:13.779
the Marines, the Navy,

2950
01:31:13.780 --> 01:31:15.440
and our Air Force collectively.

2951
01:31:16.540 --> 01:31:18.539
So we know that's

2952
01:31:18.540 --> 01:31:20.619
absolutely phenomenal finances

2953
01:31:20.620 --> 01:31:23.039
that are behind ICE.

2954
01:31:23.040 --> 01:31:24.719
And you just talked about divesting

2955
01:31:24.720 --> 01:31:25.720
with companies.

2956
01:31:26.640 --> 01:31:29.539
And then when you take Project 2025

2957
01:31:29.540 --> 01:31:31.439
and you look at the think tank

2958
01:31:31.440 --> 01:31:33.799
behind Project 25,

2959
01:31:33.800 --> 01:31:36.119
which is the Heritage Foundation,

2960
01:31:36.120 --> 01:31:38.059
we know it was created and we know

2961
01:31:38.060 --> 01:31:39.060
where it's funded.

2962
01:31:40.000 --> 01:31:41.859
This is my moral collusion and maybe

2963
01:31:41.860 --> 01:31:43.599
you can help me and I think with a

2964
01:31:43.600 --> 01:31:44.600
lot of people.

2965
01:31:46.570 --> 01:31:48.509
When you think of

2966
01:31:48.510 --> 01:31:50.809
like Pegasus or Paragon with

2967
01:31:50.810 --> 01:31:52.669
surveillance that you know

2968
01:31:52.670 --> 01:31:55.129
of, these are Zionist

2969
01:31:55.130 --> 01:31:56.130
companies.

2970
01:31:58.230 --> 01:32:00.169
How do we address that

2971
01:32:00.170 --> 01:32:01.669
when you talk about divesting?

2972
01:32:01.670 --> 01:32:03.929
This is a really interesting subject

2973
01:32:03.930 --> 01:32:06.369
and very touchy.

2974
01:32:06.370 --> 01:32:07.849
The moral collusion, like I have

2975
01:32:07.850 --> 01:32:09.870
fear even bringing it up.

2976
01:32:11.060 --> 01:32:13.019
How do we communicate

2977
01:32:13.020 --> 01:32:15.079
about, like,

2978
01:32:15.080 --> 01:32:17.139
Project 25 and where it's,

2979
01:32:17.140 --> 01:32:19.419
you talked about these contracts,

2980
01:32:19.420 --> 01:32:21.439
or these are Zionist companies,

2981
01:32:21.440 --> 01:32:23.059
how do we share that and

2982
01:32:23.060 --> 01:32:24.519
communicate? And then I wanna go

2983
01:32:24.520 --> 01:32:26.299
back to what I first said, what

2984
01:32:26.300 --> 01:32:28.239
would you say would be

2985
01:32:28.240 --> 01:32:29.939
the one protest that you personally

2986
01:32:29.940 --> 01:32:30.940
would do?

2987
01:32:33.410 --> 01:32:35.289
Thank you, I feel like

2988
01:32:35.290 --> 01:32:36.709
I've set myself up for the Zionist

2989
01:32:36.710 --> 01:32:37.509
question

2990
01:32:37.510 --> 01:32:38.510
That's it.

2991
01:32:41.100 --> 01:32:42.280
Do you mean,

2992
01:32:44.880 --> 01:32:46.220
well, I'll say a couple things.

2993
01:32:51.040 --> 01:32:52.859
So I'm gonna try

2994
01:32:52.860 --> 01:32:55.579
to disentangle some pieces here,

2995
01:32:55.580 --> 01:32:58.879
but I

2996
01:32:58.880 --> 01:33:00.759
think if you're trying

2997
01:33:00.760 --> 01:33:01.760
to...

2998
01:33:04.910 --> 01:33:06.850
There are many ways to,

2999
01:33:08.350 --> 01:33:10.589
Julia began, let me say it this way,

3000
01:33:10.590 --> 01:33:12.569
Julia said a few minutes

3001
01:33:12.570 --> 01:33:14.509
ago that one of the most important

3002
01:33:14.510 --> 01:33:16.429
things that we need to

3003
01:33:16.430 --> 01:33:18.509
do is to get money out of

3004
01:33:18.510 --> 01:33:19.510
politics.

3005
01:33:21.490 --> 01:33:23.449
And part of the reason it's

3006
01:33:23.450 --> 01:33:24.989
hard to make that case to people is

3007
01:33:24.990 --> 01:33:26.230
that right now,

3008
01:33:27.510 --> 01:33:29.149
there's a lot of dark money

3009
01:33:30.350 --> 01:33:32.929
and it's to know who

3010
01:33:32.930 --> 01:33:33.719
is funding what.

3011
01:33:33.720 --> 01:33:35.359
So is that Citizens United?

3012
01:33:35.360 --> 01:33:37.259
That is a result of Citizens United

3013
01:33:37.260 --> 01:33:39.499
and other Supreme Court cases,

3014
01:33:39.500 --> 01:33:41.219
but also a culture that's developed

3015
01:33:41.220 --> 01:33:42.380
over a long period of time.

3016
01:33:43.460 --> 01:33:44.460
So.

3017
01:33:45.210 --> 01:33:47.569
I'm gonna avoid the

3018
01:33:47.570 --> 01:33:49.349
Zionist piece of this because I

3019
01:33:49.350 --> 01:33:50.369
don't know exactly what you mean and

3020
01:33:50.370 --> 01:33:51.209
I think this is for a different

3021
01:33:51.210 --> 01:33:52.810
talk. But to say,

3022
01:33:53.890 --> 01:33:57.149
I think it is really important

3023
01:33:57.150 --> 01:33:59.209
to know in every

3024
01:33:59.210 --> 01:34:01.149
part of our politics where money is

3025
01:34:01.150 --> 01:34:02.569
coming from, where our candidate's

3026
01:34:02.570 --> 01:34:05.029
getting their money from and who's

3027
01:34:05.030 --> 01:34:06.969
funding government contracts,

3028
01:34:06.970 --> 01:34:09.109
who's benefiting from our taxpayer

3029
01:34:09.110 --> 01:34:10.049
dollars.

3030
01:34:10.050 --> 01:34:12.189
Whether that's a foreign

3031
01:34:12.190 --> 01:34:14.449
country that's,

3032
01:34:14.450 --> 01:34:15.469
that we're.

3033
01:34:15.470 --> 01:34:18.269
Selling arms to or

3034
01:34:18.270 --> 01:34:20.369
any other use

3035
01:34:20.370 --> 01:34:21.409
of taxpayer money.

3036
01:34:22.670 --> 01:34:24.609
So there

3037
01:34:24.610 --> 01:34:26.689
are projects that exist in order

3038
01:34:26.690 --> 01:34:29.409
to

3039
01:34:29.410 --> 01:34:31.809
clarify that and to make it

3040
01:34:31.810 --> 01:34:33.489
clear where money is coming from and

3041
01:34:33.490 --> 01:34:34.490
where it's not.

3042
01:34:42.630 --> 01:34:44.049
I don't know, do you have anything

3043
01:34:44.050 --> 01:34:45.469
on the big beautiful bell?

3044
01:34:46.620 --> 01:34:48.479
I guess I would just say that it

3045
01:34:48.480 --> 01:34:49.739
sounds to me like you're saying it's

3046
01:34:49.740 --> 01:34:51.239
hard to figure out how to figure out

3047
01:34:51.240 --> 01:34:52.539
a target when there's so many.

3048
01:34:52.540 --> 01:34:54.239
This is a target rich environment,

3049
01:34:54.240 --> 01:34:56.279
right? There's so many bad

3050
01:34:56.280 --> 01:34:58.159
actors here, right, that are getting

3051
01:34:58.160 --> 01:35:00.179
so many different contracts.

3052
01:35:00.180 --> 01:35:02.139
I mentioned earlier like the protest

3053
01:35:02.140 --> 01:35:03.819
against Avelo Airlines where they

3054
01:35:03.820 --> 01:35:05.619
eventually gave, you know, abandoned

3055
01:35:05.620 --> 01:35:06.939
their ICE contract.

3056
01:35:06.940 --> 01:35:08.899
But there are many more companies

3057
01:35:08.900 --> 01:35:09.939
on that list.

3058
01:35:09.940 --> 01:35:11.219
And I think what Ami was saying

3059
01:35:11.220 --> 01:35:12.879
earlier is we need to make lists and

3060
01:35:12.880 --> 01:35:14.719
then start activating on

3061
01:35:14.720 --> 01:35:15.579
them, right?

3062
01:35:15.580 --> 01:35:16.549
And so.

3063
01:35:16.550 --> 01:35:18.489
You can't win every fight, but

3064
01:35:18.490 --> 01:35:20.069
you have to start with the ones with

3065
01:35:20.070 --> 01:35:21.069
the biggest contracts, like

3066
01:35:21.070 --> 01:35:22.449
GeoGroup, right?

3067
01:35:22.450 --> 01:35:23.669
They're building all these private

3068
01:35:23.670 --> 01:35:24.670
prisons.

3069
01:35:25.830 --> 01:35:27.369
They're actually prisons.

3070
01:35:27.370 --> 01:35:29.009
Too good of a word for what they

3071
01:35:29.010 --> 01:35:30.269
are, right. Our prisons have

3072
01:35:30.270 --> 01:35:31.669
standards. You have to have fresh

3073
01:35:31.670 --> 01:35:33.509
air. You have have to clean water.

3074
01:35:33.510 --> 01:35:35.389
These detainment centers are

3075
01:35:35.390 --> 01:35:36.989
concentration camps, right, they are

3076
01:35:36.990 --> 01:35:39.029
absolutely abysmal.

3077
01:35:39.030 --> 01:35:41.009
And so everyone associated with

3078
01:35:41.010 --> 01:35:42.729
Geo Group should be on the list and

3079
01:35:42.730 --> 01:35:44.309
should be, we should be boycotting

3080
01:35:44.310 --> 01:35:45.919
and figuring out.

3081
01:35:45.920 --> 01:35:47.599
What our items of leverage are for

3082
01:35:47.600 --> 01:35:50.039
those. But it's very specific,

3083
01:35:50.040 --> 01:35:51.799
right? And one thing I would say is

3084
01:35:51.800 --> 01:35:53.199
that it can be really overwhelming

3085
01:35:53.200 --> 01:35:55.719
to think about the whole

3086
01:35:55.720 --> 01:35:57.019
array of everything.

3087
01:35:57.020 --> 01:35:58.759
And so picking off one small piece,

3088
01:35:58.760 --> 01:35:59.579
and just being like, you know what

3089
01:35:59.580 --> 01:36:00.999
I'm focusing on?

3090
01:36:01.000 --> 01:36:02.779
There's a group in Montclair, New

3091
01:36:02.780 --> 01:36:04.979
Jersey, they are really

3092
01:36:04.980 --> 01:36:06.879
upset about the Newark Detention

3093
01:36:06.880 --> 01:36:08.619
Center, which is run by a geo group.

3094
01:36:08.620 --> 01:36:09.959
So they figured out that their

3095
01:36:09.960 --> 01:36:11.999
citizen's bank was

3096
01:36:12.000 --> 01:36:15.059
lending money to.

3097
01:36:15.060 --> 01:36:16.439
I don't know if it was directly to

3098
01:36:16.440 --> 01:36:17.619
GeoGroup or something that was

3099
01:36:17.620 --> 01:36:19.479
affiliated, and so they like,

3100
01:36:19.480 --> 01:36:21.179
everyone in the town boycotted the

3101
01:36:21.180 --> 01:36:22.459
citizens' bank, and you know, this

3102
01:36:22.460 --> 01:36:23.379
is very local.

3103
01:36:23.380 --> 01:36:24.839
But like, that is how it starts.

3104
01:36:24.840 --> 01:36:26.619
And so you have to find your way in

3105
01:36:26.620 --> 01:36:28.719
to these bigger issues through the

3106
01:36:28.720 --> 01:36:29.939
smaller doors.

3107
01:36:29.940 --> 01:36:31.499
Because it is actually surprising

3108
01:36:31.500 --> 01:36:33.419
how these small doors can

3109
01:36:33.420 --> 01:36:34.600
lead you to a bigger outcome.

3110
01:36:38.190 --> 01:36:40.129
I would like to say to both of

3111
01:36:40.130 --> 01:36:41.349
you, you are some of the most

3112
01:36:41.350 --> 01:36:42.729
interesting people I have ever

3113
01:36:42.730 --> 01:36:44.289
interviewed, and I would like to

3114
01:36:44.290 --> 01:36:46.409
take

3115
01:36:46.410 --> 01:36:48.469
a moment to

3116
01:36:48.470 --> 01:36:50.549
thank both of you for your courage.

3117
01:36:50.550 --> 01:36:51.749
It was a courageous act to write

3118
01:36:51.750 --> 01:36:54.329
this book, and we're grateful.

3119
01:36:54.330 --> 01:36:55.529
Thank you.

3120
01:36:55.530 --> 01:36:56.930
Thank you,

3121
01:36:59.010 --> 01:37:00.249
absolute joy.

3122
01:37:00.250 --> 01:37:01.969
I want to remind everybody you can

3123
01:37:01.970 --> 01:37:04.089
get the book outside and

3124
01:37:04.090 --> 01:37:06.090
there is going to be a refreshment.