WEBVTT

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Hi everyone.

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Thank you again for your

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patience today.

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There is a lot happening in the

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world, but it's really wonderful to

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be here altogether right now.

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Good afternoon.

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My name is Shannon Cynowa,

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and I am the manager of public

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programs here at the Hammer Museum.

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And we are thrilled to present our

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third annual Voices of the Diaspora

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symposium, organized by

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the Asian American Pacific Islander

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Arts Network. I hope everyone

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is having a lovely Frieze.

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Like I said, there is so much

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going on in our wider world and

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local communities, and it means so

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much that you've chosen to share

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your time with us at a contemporary

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art museum.

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This is the last weekend of our

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2025-2026

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edition of the Hammer biennial

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Made in L.A., celebrating

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our local artists, and you'll

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likely hear and see

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some of the works during today's

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panel.

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Outside, we have artist Will

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Rawls's performers sharing their

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work unmade.

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And right above us is

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Freddie Villalobos's piece,

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Waiting for a Stone to Speak

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for I Know Nothing of Adventure.

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It is such a gift to be surrounded

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by working artists and creatives.

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We're deeply grateful to all our

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Hammer members and supporters.

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But we are especially grateful to

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the generous support of an anonymous

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donor for this iteration of

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Voices of the Diaspora.

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Today we have two panels,

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Defining Photography Now and

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Filipino American Temporalities,

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featuring some of the most engaging

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artists and cultural workers

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in Los Angeles today.

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After each panel, we'll open up

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the floor for a few minutes for

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audience Q&A, but if

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you could please wait for one of our

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ushers to hand you a mic.

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That would be much appreciated.

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We wanna make sure we can hear your

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insights.

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We'll have a brief 10 minute break

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between the panels and if

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you need a treat, there's coffee,

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tea, and cookies over there.

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And after the symposium

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portion of our panel, of our

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event today, this space will

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move from panel to party

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with lumpias, rice cakes,

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and lunar new year themed drinks.

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So we hope you will stay with us

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to celebrate.

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Please join me in welcoming

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founding member of the Asian

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American Pacific Islander Arts

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Network, Grace Oh.

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Thank you, Shannon, and thank you,

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Hammer Museum, for always making

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space for voices to be heard.

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And thank you everyone for coming,

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considering what's happening out in

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the world and that it's freeze

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week, freeze art week.

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Thank you so much.

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I hope you guys are all surviving.

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On behalf of AAPI Arts Network

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and the Hammer Museum it is my

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pleasure to welcome you all to our

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annual, the third annual, Voices

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of the Diaspora symposium.

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I'm Grace Oh, co-founder of the AAPI

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Arts Network.

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And it's been my honor to serve and

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advocate diverse diasporic art

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practices across my work as

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board member nationally with

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Creative Capital, locally with

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LACE, and through my leadership of

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the L.A. Chinatown-based

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architecture firm Formation

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Association.

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Three years ago, the symposium began

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with the goal to highlight stories,

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practices, and visions of diasporics

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and indigenous artists and cultural

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workers of color.

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The symposium exists because the

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questions we carry don't always have

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easy answers.

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What does it mean to make art across

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borders, physical, cultural,

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historical?

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How do we hold the weight of

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colonial legacies while reaching

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towards something new?

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How do tell our own stories when so

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many of the tools, the institutions

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and histories of art were not

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built with us in mind?

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Today, we'll sit with some of these

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questions together across two

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conversations that I think will push

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and inspire us all.

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But before we get there, we have the

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gift of hearing from an LA-based

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indigenous artist, Mercedes

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Drammi.

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Whose work is deeply rooted in

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place, in memory, and in the sacred.

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Please join me in welcoming her

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to help us with an untraditional

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land acknowledgement.

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Mi ha, aweskene ha,

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netwanyane, Mercedes Dorame,

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hanukvetam, noamki,

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gwasna, koy tovangar,

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neshine, machova ha.

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Hi, my name is Mercedes Dorame.

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My ancestors, the Tongva people,

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came from here and have always been

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here. I am grateful to be here with

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you all and the opportunity

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to share.

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In place of a traditional land

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acknowledgement, I tasked myself

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to share wisdom that I

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have gathered and inherited

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over my life from my

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community, which includes

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Tongva, elders,

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other native friends,

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and culture bearers, artists,

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dreamers, schemers, and

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souls that want to make our

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existence more full of love,

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care, art, and the beauty of this

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universe.

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My ancestors are the

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original caretakers of this land

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that we are on right now.

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And I work every day.

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To listen and to align my

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heart and actions with their wisdom.

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Indigeneity is complicated,

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but the most important thing is to

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come to its wisdom with a good

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heart.

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Please know that it is okay to

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acknowledge that you don't know

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things, to ask questions,

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to embrace that you will always be

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learning.

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This openness makes for space,

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for expansion, for letting wisdom

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in, and we are all learning.

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In an effort to approach

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this wisdom in a holistic way,

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I always orient myself within

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the directions.

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So I'm gonna say them in Tongva

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and English.

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So to May is north.

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So that's a place of inspiration and

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of creation.

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Moving through this world, we have

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the power to imagine, to create.

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We have to build wherever we

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are, even if that means

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starting small.

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Sometimes small is the most

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beautiful and profound place to

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be, like a tiny acorn

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that sprouts and becomes a mighty

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oak tree.

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Healing happens in community,

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create and build spaces of safety,

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and care to gather to foster

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and encourage a sense of belonging.

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Individually we know things, and

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together we know a lot.

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There is power in feeling connection

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and abundance, and

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having a place to share it.

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Know that the fullest moments,

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the most beautiful moments, and also

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the bleakest moments are meant to be

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shared.

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There aren't many permanent things

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in this world, but north,

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true north, will always be north,

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and love will always love.

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Kitame, south,

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a place of grounding.

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Appreciate the land that supports

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you at every moment.

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It holds you and will continue

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to hold you.

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Wherever you call home,

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learn who the original caretakers

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are of those lands.

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Not just the indigenous tribes

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names, but learn people's

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names from those communities.

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We exist.

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We know things.

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We have ancestral knowledge that is

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tied intimately to the land.

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And we like to share it.

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But please also be appreciative of

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this knowledge and reciprocal.

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I think one of the most meaningful

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things you can do here in Los

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Angeles is finding moments in

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open spaces, green spaces,

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parks, hillsides, mountains, and

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shores. They exist and are

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calling out with messages and

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requests for care.

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Appreciate that being in these

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spaces, the beings in

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these places have been present and

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will remain present long after

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we have interacted with them.

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So be respectful and learn from

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their deep wisdom.

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I think it's important to learn to

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feel the seasonal shifts.

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Even in LA, here, we have

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seasons.

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Listen to the birds, the plants.

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Know the feeling of the afternoon

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sun on the back of your neck.

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Tune your body to the changes of

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light throughout the year and on

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moments of the solstices and

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equinoxes.

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These markers and seasonal

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shifts persist even

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when the world feels and

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is in complete disarray.

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East, a place of beginning.

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A place where all heavenly bodies,

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all stars, including the sun,

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rise every day.

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Come to moments of beginnings and

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transition like the snake

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that knows it has to shed its skin

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in order to expand and to

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grow.

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The spring flowers are sending out

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their messages of joy and pleasure

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right now, stopping

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to actually smell the roses

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or the jasmine or the

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orange blossoms.

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Or the sagebrush, or listening to

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the crickets is healing.

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They send calm through your being

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if you're able to pause long enough

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to accept it.

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Pai Mai, west, a

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place of closure.

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Where stars fall below the

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horizon, where darkness

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is born when the sun sets,

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we experience cycles of light

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and darkness every 24 hours.

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Darkness is important, it holds

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00:10:01.340 --> 00:10:03.219
us. The stars are always

289
00:10:03.220 --> 00:10:04.359
above us.

290
00:10:04.360 --> 00:10:05.959
But we need the darkness to see

291
00:10:05.960 --> 00:10:06.979
them.

292
00:10:06.980 --> 00:10:09.939
We also need darkness to rest.

293
00:10:09.940 --> 00:10:11.939
Rest should not be considered

294
00:10:11.940 --> 00:10:13.459
a privilege.

295
00:10:13.460 --> 00:10:15.279
Being busy is not a virtue.

296
00:10:15.280 --> 00:10:17.039
We need to care for ourselves and

297
00:10:17.040 --> 00:10:19.219
each other to keep up the fight,

298
00:10:19.220 --> 00:10:21.059
to create, and to build the world we

299
00:10:21.060 --> 00:10:22.060
want to inhabit.

300
00:10:23.120 --> 00:10:25.359
Appreciate those who came before you

301
00:10:25.360 --> 00:10:27.379
and us in the world, those

302
00:10:27.380 --> 00:10:29.379
who have passed, those who gave us

303
00:10:29.380 --> 00:10:30.499
life.

304
00:10:30.500 --> 00:10:32.479
They inform our place here on

305
00:10:32.480 --> 00:10:33.859
this planet.

306
00:10:33.860 --> 00:10:36.279
I sometimes am reminded that

307
00:10:36.280 --> 00:10:38.379
it is an absolute miracle

308
00:10:38.380 --> 00:10:40.019
that I'm standing here, that I

309
00:10:40.020 --> 00:10:41.859
exist, with extermination

310
00:10:41.860 --> 00:10:43.559
policies, colonization,

311
00:10:44.620 --> 00:10:46.099
organized institutional oppression

312
00:10:46.100 --> 00:10:47.579
of native people.

313
00:10:47.580 --> 00:10:49.819
It is incredible that my ancestors

314
00:10:49.820 --> 00:10:51.399
got me here.

315
00:10:51.400 --> 00:10:53.239
But it is also in these moments that

316
00:10:53.240 --> 00:10:55.239
I insist on remembering and

317
00:10:55.240 --> 00:10:57.259
knowing that we do not only

318
00:10:57.260 --> 00:10:59.259
inherit this trauma in our

319
00:10:59.260 --> 00:11:00.539
DNA memory.

320
00:11:00.540 --> 00:11:03.379
But we also inherit survivance,

321
00:11:03.380 --> 00:11:04.799
resilience, and persistence.

322
00:11:06.220 --> 00:11:08.119
And although we often only

323
00:11:08.120 --> 00:11:09.699
speak of four directions, I'm going

324
00:11:09.700 --> 00:11:11.019
to give two more.

325
00:11:11.020 --> 00:11:12.879
The first is what

326
00:11:12.880 --> 00:11:14.219
I think of as that which is

327
00:11:14.220 --> 00:11:16.219
expansive. It goes outward.

328
00:11:16.220 --> 00:11:18.039
For the Tongva people, the word

329
00:11:18.040 --> 00:11:20.619
for the whole world is tovangar.

330
00:11:20.620 --> 00:11:22.519
So we are named Tongva after

331
00:11:22.520 --> 00:11:23.520
this land.

332
00:11:24.330 --> 00:11:26.189
To vangar as the whole

333
00:11:26.190 --> 00:11:28.189
world is not meant in a way

334
00:11:28.190 --> 00:11:30.209
that claims that Los Angeles and

335
00:11:30.210 --> 00:11:31.749
in the surrounding areas are the

336
00:11:31.750 --> 00:11:33.629
entire universe, but it

337
00:11:33.630 --> 00:11:35.729
means the whole world in a ways

338
00:11:35.730 --> 00:11:37.409
that reminds us that we are

339
00:11:37.410 --> 00:11:38.549
connected.

340
00:11:38.550 --> 00:11:40.869
Our actions, our ideas,

341
00:11:40.870 --> 00:11:42.909
our imaginations connect us to each

342
00:11:42.910 --> 00:11:44.769
other and to the rest of

343
00:11:44.770 --> 00:11:46.069
the world and the beings that

344
00:11:46.070 --> 00:11:46.889
inhabit it.

345
00:11:46.890 --> 00:11:48.649
We have to remember to act in a way

346
00:11:48.650 --> 00:11:50.649
that fosters this connection

347
00:11:50.650 --> 00:11:51.650
to all beings.

348
00:11:52.750 --> 00:11:54.769
And the last direction is

349
00:11:54.770 --> 00:11:56.729
that which goes inward, the

350
00:11:56.730 --> 00:11:58.069
place of center.

351
00:11:58.070 --> 00:11:59.569
I think it's important to find your

352
00:11:59.570 --> 00:12:01.589
core, that place that holds

353
00:12:01.590 --> 00:12:03.549
truth, love,

354
00:12:03.550 --> 00:12:05.589
passion, and creativity.

355
00:12:05.590 --> 00:12:07.489
And for me, this

356
00:12:07.490 --> 00:12:09.029
is the most important space to

357
00:12:09.030 --> 00:12:10.269
foster as an artist.

358
00:12:10.270 --> 00:12:12.749
It is the space where our creativity

359
00:12:12.750 --> 00:12:14.509
and energy emerges from.

360
00:12:14.510 --> 00:12:16.669
And to foster this,

361
00:12:16.670 --> 00:12:18.709
I think we need to create spaces

362
00:12:18.710 --> 00:12:20.319
of freedom.

363
00:12:20.320 --> 00:12:22.059
And the idea of freedom has been

364
00:12:22.060 --> 00:12:24.059
molded into many strange and

365
00:12:24.060 --> 00:12:25.639
very lonely places.

366
00:12:25.640 --> 00:12:27.879
I don't mean freedom in a toxic

367
00:12:27.880 --> 00:12:29.240
individualistic sense.

368
00:12:30.280 --> 00:12:32.379
But in a way that knows that

369
00:12:32.380 --> 00:12:34.299
freedom means existing in

370
00:12:34.300 --> 00:12:36.979
a place where the people around you,

371
00:12:36.980 --> 00:12:38.959
your community, celebrate

372
00:12:38.960 --> 00:12:40.799
you and encourage you

373
00:12:40.800 --> 00:12:42.699
to be your truest form of self,

374
00:12:42.700 --> 00:12:44.279
your core self.

375
00:12:44.280 --> 00:12:46.259
The root word of freedom is

376
00:12:46.260 --> 00:12:48.199
connected to the same root word

377
00:12:48.200 --> 00:12:50.559
of friend.

378
00:12:50.560 --> 00:12:52.699
Freedom is conceptually and

379
00:12:52.700 --> 00:12:54.759
intricately linked to

380
00:12:54.760 --> 00:12:57.079
our rights of belonging.

381
00:12:57.080 --> 00:12:59.279
We need each other to be free.

382
00:12:59.280 --> 00:13:01.159
We need to support each other to

383
00:13:01.160 --> 00:13:02.979
foster freedom, and we need

384
00:13:02.980 --> 00:13:04.819
to find spaces of safety and love

385
00:13:04.820 --> 00:13:06.719
to allow growth and

386
00:13:06.720 --> 00:13:08.939
understanding of this freedom.

387
00:13:08.940 --> 00:13:10.679
Build your freedom in belonging.

388
00:13:11.880 --> 00:13:13.959
In a moment that feels bleak

389
00:13:13.960 --> 00:13:16.079
and overwhelming is by

390
00:13:16.080 --> 00:13:19.149
rejecting scarcity and isolation.

391
00:13:19.150 --> 00:13:20.769
That we will have the power to

392
00:13:20.770 --> 00:13:22.669
continue and to create and to

393
00:13:22.670 --> 00:13:24.069
be free.

394
00:13:24.070 --> 00:13:26.289
We must remember we are connected,

395
00:13:26.290 --> 00:13:28.429
that we have abundance,

396
00:13:28.430 --> 00:13:30.429
abundance of love, abundance of

397
00:13:30.430 --> 00:13:32.409
the night sky, of the full moon,

398
00:13:32.410 --> 00:13:33.889
of the oak trees and the waves

399
00:13:33.890 --> 00:13:35.010
crashing on the shore,

400
00:13:36.170 --> 00:13:38.169
of kind words and gestures of

401
00:13:38.170 --> 00:13:40.789
care and concern, of sunlight,

402
00:13:40.790 --> 00:13:43.329
of joy and of each other.

403
00:13:43.330 --> 00:13:45.049
North, true north will always be

404
00:13:45.050 --> 00:13:46.189
north.

405
00:13:46.190 --> 00:13:47.879
Love will always love.

406
00:13:47.880 --> 00:13:49.739
Wish me no cre, nes yunne,

407
00:13:49.740 --> 00:13:50.740
mucho vaha.

408
00:14:33.580 --> 00:14:35.119
Hi, everyone.

409
00:14:35.120 --> 00:14:37.079
We are going to start with

410
00:14:37.080 --> 00:14:38.579
our first panel.

411
00:14:38.580 --> 00:14:40.859
It's a conversation on

412
00:14:40.860 --> 00:14:42.499
and around photography.

413
00:14:42.500 --> 00:14:44.559
But I do want to acknowledge that

414
00:14:44.560 --> 00:14:46.400
we're not living in a vacuum.

415
00:14:47.480 --> 00:14:49.479
Things are happening outside.

416
00:14:49.480 --> 00:14:51.959
US just bombed Iran.

417
00:14:51.960 --> 00:14:54.059
And that's why the

418
00:14:54.060 --> 00:14:55.999
protest is going on

419
00:14:56.000 --> 00:14:57.139
around campus.

420
00:14:58.420 --> 00:14:59.420
So,

421
00:15:01.280 --> 00:15:03.099
we think that context in

422
00:15:03.100 --> 00:15:03.939
mind.

423
00:15:03.940 --> 00:15:06.759
We want to talk about how

424
00:15:06.760 --> 00:15:08.659
diaspora or the notion of

425
00:15:08.660 --> 00:15:10.779
diaspora, redefining what

426
00:15:10.780 --> 00:15:12.159
photography is.

427
00:15:13.500 --> 00:15:15.439
And the artist here will do

428
00:15:15.440 --> 00:15:16.639
a quick introduction.

429
00:15:19.620 --> 00:15:21.039
Should have asked to go like second

430
00:15:21.040 --> 00:15:22.040
or third.

431
00:15:22.800 --> 00:15:24.879
So my name is Mercedes Dormy.

432
00:15:24.880 --> 00:15:27.179
I'm going to show just three

433
00:15:27.180 --> 00:15:29.080
slides of some work.

434
00:15:30.500 --> 00:15:32.719
This is a project

435
00:15:32.720 --> 00:15:35.539
rooted in my indigenous

436
00:15:35.540 --> 00:15:36.979
belonging.

437
00:15:36.980 --> 00:15:38.939
It's a project that was

438
00:15:38.940 --> 00:15:40.999
rooted in

439
00:15:41.000 --> 00:15:43.219
lands out on the Channel Islands,

440
00:15:43.220 --> 00:15:44.839
so Santa Cruz and Santa Catalina

441
00:15:44.840 --> 00:15:45.839
Island.

442
00:15:45.840 --> 00:15:47.819
And it's looking at what

443
00:15:47.820 --> 00:15:50.139
my interactions in these spaces are.

444
00:15:52.100 --> 00:15:54.039
This was a project put on by

445
00:15:54.040 --> 00:15:55.919
Oxie Arts as part

446
00:15:55.920 --> 00:15:58.259
of the Wanless Artists in Residence.

447
00:15:58.260 --> 00:16:00.299
And it was called Where Sky

448
00:16:00.300 --> 00:16:01.419
Touches Water.

449
00:16:01.420 --> 00:16:03.859
And it about these contact moments

450
00:16:03.860 --> 00:16:05.719
between us and how

451
00:16:05.720 --> 00:16:07.779
we orient ourselves in

452
00:16:07.780 --> 00:16:08.999
the land.

453
00:16:09.000 --> 00:16:10.459
I used the photograph.

454
00:16:10.460 --> 00:16:11.499
I used sculpture.

455
00:16:11.500 --> 00:16:12.699
I used installation.

456
00:16:12.700 --> 00:16:14.239
The light in this space was very

457
00:16:14.240 --> 00:16:15.339
important.

458
00:16:15.340 --> 00:16:17.539
And it's a way of creating

459
00:16:17.540 --> 00:16:19.699
worlds to

460
00:16:19.700 --> 00:16:21.459
engage with.

461
00:16:21.460 --> 00:16:23.739
Part of the practice is a very

462
00:16:23.740 --> 00:16:26.219
direct photographic

463
00:16:26.220 --> 00:16:27.319
work. This is probably the most

464
00:16:27.320 --> 00:16:29.159
straight photographs I ever

465
00:16:29.160 --> 00:16:30.139
kind of worked with.

466
00:16:30.140 --> 00:16:32.319
And I was so taken aback

467
00:16:32.320 --> 00:16:33.359
by these spaces.

468
00:16:33.360 --> 00:16:35.099
A lot of my earlier work had a lot

469
00:16:35.100 --> 00:16:36.559
of intervention in it.

470
00:16:36.560 --> 00:16:38.439
And these, I didn't want

471
00:16:38.440 --> 00:16:40.179
to kind of intervene.

472
00:16:40.180 --> 00:16:42.199
I really just wanted to engage

473
00:16:42.200 --> 00:16:44.299
and show and learn and understand.

474
00:16:45.410 --> 00:16:47.849
The one on the

475
00:16:47.850 --> 00:16:49.849
left, no, your right,

476
00:16:49.850 --> 00:16:51.409
is abalone, which has been really

477
00:16:51.410 --> 00:16:53.669
important to me as a material,

478
00:16:53.670 --> 00:16:55.129
and it kind of also, I'm going back

479
00:16:55.130 --> 00:16:58.589
to this little installation,

480
00:16:58.590 --> 00:17:00.529
informs a lot of the sculptural

481
00:17:00.530 --> 00:17:02.589
work, a lot the ideas

482
00:17:02.590 --> 00:17:04.588
around the

483
00:17:04.589 --> 00:17:06.469
complexity of cultural

484
00:17:06.470 --> 00:17:09.749
markers, that you're

485
00:17:09.750 --> 00:17:11.749
not able to put a...

486
00:17:11.750 --> 00:17:13.789
A material or a person or

487
00:17:13.790 --> 00:17:15.689
something into a singular box, but

488
00:17:15.690 --> 00:17:17.649
how do we understand something

489
00:17:17.650 --> 00:17:20.469
in its multiplicity of uses or

490
00:17:20.470 --> 00:17:21.470
realms?

491
00:17:22.109 --> 00:17:23.868
I'm gonna, is that about three

492
00:17:23.869 --> 00:17:25.868
minutes? Yeah, okay, I'm

493
00:17:25.869 --> 00:17:27.588
going to pass it on down to Todd.

494
00:17:27.589 --> 00:17:28.589
Thank you.

495
00:17:29.050 --> 00:17:30.669
Thank you, Mercedes.

496
00:17:30.670 --> 00:17:32.969
It's an honor to be here.

497
00:17:32.970 --> 00:17:34.969
My name's Todd Gray.

498
00:17:34.970 --> 00:17:36.829
And I started

499
00:17:36.830 --> 00:17:39.409
photography as a music photographer.

500
00:17:39.410 --> 00:17:41.629
And so I use

501
00:17:41.630 --> 00:17:43.449
my archive of

502
00:17:43.450 --> 00:17:46.389
photographs over the last 50 years.

503
00:17:46.390 --> 00:17:48.369
And a lot of

504
00:17:48.370 --> 00:17:51.329
my photography is

505
00:17:51.330 --> 00:17:53.509
a way for me to

506
00:17:53.510 --> 00:17:55.569
question my value system.

507
00:17:57.010 --> 00:17:59.089
I was brought up to be apologetic,

508
00:17:59.090 --> 00:17:59.969
to be black.

509
00:17:59.970 --> 00:18:01.449
I always thought black was less

510
00:18:01.450 --> 00:18:02.349
than.

511
00:18:02.350 --> 00:18:04.189
And it wasn't until I went to art

512
00:18:04.190 --> 00:18:06.209
school and I realized that my

513
00:18:06.210 --> 00:18:08.149
mind had been colonized.

514
00:18:08.150 --> 00:18:10.709
I started reading Toni Morrison,

515
00:18:10.710 --> 00:18:12.569
Du Bois, Fanon, a

516
00:18:12.570 --> 00:18:14.029
bunch of artists, a bunch of

517
00:18:14.030 --> 00:18:15.030
writers.

518
00:18:15.470 --> 00:18:17.349
And I had an understanding

519
00:18:17.350 --> 00:18:19.189
that dominant culture

520
00:18:19.190 --> 00:18:21.009
had put that message

521
00:18:21.010 --> 00:18:22.529
into my head. And I've been using

522
00:18:22.530 --> 00:18:25.449
photography as a way to

523
00:18:25.450 --> 00:18:26.450
counteract that.

524
00:18:27.379 --> 00:18:29.559
I was taught that,

525
00:18:29.560 --> 00:18:31.419
you know, like shooting musicians,

526
00:18:31.420 --> 00:18:32.979
that's pop culture, that's kind of

527
00:18:32.980 --> 00:18:34.599
lo-fi art.

528
00:18:34.600 --> 00:18:36.679
And of course these pieces

529
00:18:36.680 --> 00:18:38.659
with sculptures in

530
00:18:38.660 --> 00:18:40.499
Europe and frescoes are

531
00:18:40.500 --> 00:18:41.459
high culture.

532
00:18:41.460 --> 00:18:43.499
And so I've been fusing

533
00:18:43.500 --> 00:18:44.500
the two together

534
00:18:45.440 --> 00:18:47.299
and putting them in

535
00:18:47.300 --> 00:18:48.439
dialog.

536
00:18:48.440 --> 00:18:50.319
I take all the photographs

537
00:18:50.320 --> 00:18:52.859
that I use in my archive and

538
00:18:52.860 --> 00:18:53.959
I collage them.

539
00:18:53.960 --> 00:18:56.299
This came out

540
00:18:56.300 --> 00:18:57.300
of...

541
00:18:59.410 --> 00:19:01.709
I had a lot of time on my hands.

542
00:19:01.710 --> 00:19:03.289
And I had to show at the Wadsworth

543
00:19:03.290 --> 00:19:04.329
in Connecticut.

544
00:19:04.330 --> 00:19:06.249
And so I created this

545
00:19:06.250 --> 00:19:08.109
30-foot work.

546
00:19:09.170 --> 00:19:11.009
Part of it, you have to

547
00:19:11.010 --> 00:19:12.089
be present.

548
00:19:12.090 --> 00:19:13.429
Normally, you can take a photograph

549
00:19:13.430 --> 00:19:14.689
in one visual gulp.

550
00:19:14.690 --> 00:19:16.849
Well, I challenge that.

551
00:19:16.850 --> 00:19:18.129
It actually takes time.

552
00:19:18.130 --> 00:19:19.829
You have to move through it.

553
00:19:19.830 --> 00:19:21.829
And then as you move, the

554
00:19:21.830 --> 00:19:24.229
photograph that you see next to it

555
00:19:24.230 --> 00:19:26.169
affects the one that's coming

556
00:19:26.170 --> 00:19:27.849
afterwards. So.

557
00:19:27.850 --> 00:19:29.909
I really challenge this idea

558
00:19:29.910 --> 00:19:31.929
of what a photograph is, and

559
00:19:31.930 --> 00:19:34.729
I actually embrace sculpture,

560
00:19:34.730 --> 00:19:38.789
and I challenge the

561
00:19:38.790 --> 00:19:41.089
viewer to make meaning.

562
00:19:41.090 --> 00:19:42.589
So photography is normally a

563
00:19:42.590 --> 00:19:43.789
statement, I try to make it a

564
00:19:43.790 --> 00:19:44.669
question.

565
00:19:44.670 --> 00:19:46.269
And so that puts the onus on the

566
00:19:46.270 --> 00:19:47.829
viewer that they are actually

567
00:19:47.830 --> 00:19:49.689
completing the picture,

568
00:19:49.690 --> 00:19:51.249
they are projecting their own

569
00:19:51.250 --> 00:19:53.149
meaning. And there's not one

570
00:19:53.150 --> 00:19:54.909
meaning, there are meanings,

571
00:19:54.910 --> 00:19:56.579
plurality of meanings.

572
00:19:56.580 --> 00:19:58.019
And so I'll end with this.

573
00:19:58.020 --> 00:20:00.399
On the left, well, the landscape

574
00:20:00.400 --> 00:20:02.239
that's toppled is a

575
00:20:02.240 --> 00:20:03.779
wetland, and I took that from a

576
00:20:03.780 --> 00:20:05.519
historic slave trail in Ghana.

577
00:20:05.520 --> 00:20:07.939
It's a place where I have a space.

578
00:20:07.940 --> 00:20:10.219
And then on the right is

579
00:20:10.220 --> 00:20:12.259
a detail of a

580
00:20:12.260 --> 00:20:14.119
wall in a slave castle in Cape

581
00:20:14.120 --> 00:20:14.979
Coast.

582
00:20:14.980 --> 00:20:17.499
So how greens, the lushness,

583
00:20:17.500 --> 00:20:19.579
and then how I kind

584
00:20:19.580 --> 00:20:21.040
of navigate that in between.

585
00:20:32.650 --> 00:20:34.029
Thank you, Danielle and Grace, for

586
00:20:34.030 --> 00:20:35.430
having me. It's an honor to be here.

587
00:20:36.550 --> 00:20:37.449
I am Phil Chang.

588
00:20:37.450 --> 00:20:38.869
I'm an artist and educator based in

589
00:20:38.870 --> 00:20:40.269
Los Angeles. I work primarily in

590
00:20:40.270 --> 00:20:41.369
photography.

591
00:20:41.370 --> 00:20:42.429
And the body of work that I wanted

592
00:20:42.430 --> 00:20:44.709
to quickly show you guys are,

593
00:20:44.710 --> 00:20:46.829
they consist of photographs

594
00:20:46.830 --> 00:20:48.589
that last about five hours.

595
00:20:48.590 --> 00:20:49.989
The light that a viewer needs to

596
00:20:49.990 --> 00:20:51.929
view them make them transform to

597
00:20:51.930 --> 00:20:53.769
a monochrome or basically a blank

598
00:20:53.770 --> 00:20:55.349
sheet of photographic paper.

599
00:20:55.350 --> 00:20:57.929
I started making these in 2008.

600
00:20:57.930 --> 00:20:58.909
So I've been making them for a while

601
00:20:58.910 --> 00:21:00.309
and they were a response initially

602
00:21:00.310 --> 00:21:02.959
to the financial collapse of 2008.

603
00:21:02.960 --> 00:21:04.699
The photographs don't depict the

604
00:21:04.700 --> 00:21:05.939
collapse. What I was trying to do

605
00:21:05.940 --> 00:21:07.339
with the body of work was to figure

606
00:21:07.340 --> 00:21:09.339
out, is there another way

607
00:21:09.340 --> 00:21:11.219
to address, let's say, an issue of

608
00:21:11.220 --> 00:21:12.559
political economy, in this case a

609
00:21:12.560 --> 00:21:14.919
financial collapse, and I decided to

610
00:21:14.920 --> 00:21:16.839
make these works be unstable, to

611
00:21:16.840 --> 00:21:18.959
kind of deal with loss, if you will,

612
00:21:18.960 --> 00:21:21.659
through the exposure process,

613
00:21:21.660 --> 00:21:23.319
through using expired, unstable

614
00:21:23.320 --> 00:21:25.299
paper, basically trying to rely on

615
00:21:25.300 --> 00:21:27.139
a procedural process, a structural

616
00:21:27.140 --> 00:21:28.399
process, if we will, of photography

617
00:21:28.400 --> 00:21:30.239
itself instead of depiction.

618
00:21:30.240 --> 00:21:32.019
These are just install views from an

619
00:21:32.020 --> 00:21:33.999
exhibition from 2022 to 2023 at

620
00:21:34.000 --> 00:21:35.359
the Artists from Space to Fulcrum.

621
00:21:36.860 --> 00:21:38.579
And this is install views from a

622
00:21:38.580 --> 00:21:39.659
group exhibition that was at the

623
00:21:39.660 --> 00:21:40.799
Getty in 2024.

624
00:21:42.360 --> 00:21:44.259
To give you just some insight about

625
00:21:44.260 --> 00:21:45.680
why I'm doing this work,

626
00:21:47.900 --> 00:21:49.699
the work is a way for me to engage

627
00:21:49.700 --> 00:21:51.259
with the belief that I have around

628
00:21:51.260 --> 00:21:52.619
the medium. I think the medium

629
00:21:52.620 --> 00:21:54.159
photography does a really great job

630
00:21:54.160 --> 00:21:55.939
at depicting the world.

631
00:21:55.940 --> 00:21:57.079
I think maybe we can hopefully agree

632
00:21:57.080 --> 00:21:57.899
on that.

633
00:21:57.900 --> 00:21:59.819
I found that something else is

634
00:21:59.820 --> 00:22:01.519
more accurate for me in terms of

635
00:22:01.520 --> 00:22:02.599
photography, and I think that's how

636
00:22:02.600 --> 00:22:04.459
we produce photographs, how

637
00:22:04.460 --> 00:22:06.139
we circulate photographs, and how we

638
00:22:06.140 --> 00:22:07.879
then consume photographs.

639
00:22:07.880 --> 00:22:09.339
Those three activities are more

640
00:22:09.340 --> 00:22:10.699
indicative of the world than actual

641
00:22:10.700 --> 00:22:12.559
images of the word for me, and these

642
00:22:12.560 --> 00:22:14.000
bodies of work try to reflect that.

643
00:22:18.200 --> 00:22:19.779
My name is Danielle Shang.

644
00:22:19.780 --> 00:22:21.659
I am LA-based

645
00:22:21.660 --> 00:22:23.699
writer and a curator, and

646
00:22:23.700 --> 00:22:25.699
I am very honored

647
00:22:25.700 --> 00:22:28.559
to have this opportunity to

648
00:22:28.560 --> 00:22:31.139
moderate this conversation.

649
00:22:31.140 --> 00:22:33.119
I wanted to go back

650
00:22:33.120 --> 00:22:34.539
to the very beginning.

651
00:22:36.480 --> 00:22:38.539
So three of you are not

652
00:22:38.540 --> 00:22:40.779
only practitioners.

653
00:22:40.780 --> 00:22:41.780
Did I sit on it?

654
00:22:44.560 --> 00:22:46.479
Not only practitioners, but

655
00:22:46.480 --> 00:22:48.459
also educators, or

656
00:22:48.460 --> 00:22:51.019
once upon a time, educator in

657
00:22:51.020 --> 00:22:52.599
the field of photography.

658
00:22:53.960 --> 00:22:56.179
Your artistic competence,

659
00:22:56.180 --> 00:22:58.279
social awareness, and

660
00:22:58.280 --> 00:23:00.239
your intellectual vigor will help

661
00:23:00.240 --> 00:23:02.059
us understand photography

662
00:23:02.060 --> 00:23:04.479
today and its intersections

663
00:23:04.480 --> 00:23:06.499
with identity, history,

664
00:23:06.500 --> 00:23:07.759
and power.

665
00:23:07.760 --> 00:23:10.159
And your own biographies,

666
00:23:10.160 --> 00:23:12.879
even Mercedes's native tangba.

667
00:23:12.880 --> 00:23:14.939
Are shaped by migration,

668
00:23:14.940 --> 00:23:17.279
dislocation, trauma,

669
00:23:17.280 --> 00:23:19.719
and imaginative return.

670
00:23:19.720 --> 00:23:21.779
I consider your practices

671
00:23:21.780 --> 00:23:23.879
code-switching through

672
00:23:23.880 --> 00:23:25.699
three key interventions

673
00:23:25.700 --> 00:23:27.359
in this course.

674
00:23:27.360 --> 00:23:29.479
First, through references

675
00:23:29.480 --> 00:23:32.039
to your own lived experiences.

676
00:23:32.040 --> 00:23:34.099
Second, through engagement

677
00:23:34.100 --> 00:23:36.479
with what Cobain

678
00:23:36.480 --> 00:23:38.539
Mercer describes as

679
00:23:38.540 --> 00:23:41.199
a rapture caused by dislocation

680
00:23:41.200 --> 00:23:42.999
and immigration.

681
00:23:43.000 --> 00:23:45.079
And third, through your ability

682
00:23:45.080 --> 00:23:47.139
to question dominant notions

683
00:23:47.140 --> 00:23:49.359
of modernity and

684
00:23:49.360 --> 00:23:51.239
modernism, as well

685
00:23:51.240 --> 00:23:54.359
as visual representation.

686
00:23:54.360 --> 00:23:56.539
So my first question is

687
00:23:56.540 --> 00:23:58.679
because all of you

688
00:23:58.680 --> 00:24:01.159
related to the photography program

689
00:24:01.160 --> 00:24:03.139
at Collards as

690
00:24:03.140 --> 00:24:05.179
students and as a faculty,

691
00:24:06.500 --> 00:24:08.719
what lessons did you take from

692
00:24:08.720 --> 00:24:10.659
that environment and then how did

693
00:24:10.660 --> 00:24:12.539
it inform the way you think

694
00:24:12.540 --> 00:24:14.979
about photography today?

695
00:24:14.980 --> 00:24:16.819
Mercedes, how does your teaching

696
00:24:16.820 --> 00:24:18.919
there connect it to your own

697
00:24:18.920 --> 00:24:21.139
artistic practice from

698
00:24:21.140 --> 00:24:23.099
Native American point of

699
00:24:23.100 --> 00:24:24.999
view? And Todd,

700
00:24:25.000 --> 00:24:26.959
did the call arts influence your

701
00:24:26.960 --> 00:24:28.979
turn towards using your own

702
00:24:28.980 --> 00:24:30.979
archive to examine

703
00:24:30.980 --> 00:24:32.879
colonial histories?

704
00:24:32.880 --> 00:24:34.999
And Phil, how did they inform

705
00:24:35.000 --> 00:24:36.939
you, inform your

706
00:24:36.940 --> 00:24:37.979
engagement?

707
00:24:37.980 --> 00:24:40.039
With the photography's

708
00:24:40.040 --> 00:24:41.219
materiality.

709
00:24:41.220 --> 00:24:43.139
And could you speak a little

710
00:24:43.140 --> 00:24:44.959
bit more how this body

711
00:24:44.960 --> 00:24:46.819
of work on the

712
00:24:46.820 --> 00:24:48.759
slides contributed to your

713
00:24:48.760 --> 00:24:50.519
recent Guggenheim Fellowship?

714
00:24:52.240 --> 00:24:53.240
Should we go in that order?

715
00:25:00.270 --> 00:25:02.089
As the only person here who

716
00:25:02.090 --> 00:25:03.289
didn't actually go to CalArts, but

717
00:25:03.290 --> 00:25:04.489
I'm currently faculty,

718
00:25:05.830 --> 00:25:07.589
I think I've been shaped by it in a

719
00:25:07.590 --> 00:25:08.989
different way.

720
00:25:08.990 --> 00:25:10.929
I came in and was very

721
00:25:10.930 --> 00:25:11.829
intimidated.

722
00:25:11.830 --> 00:25:13.469
It's, you know, Alan Sekula, who

723
00:25:13.470 --> 00:25:14.789
started the photo program there,

724
00:25:14.790 --> 00:25:16.009
visited where I went to graduate

725
00:25:16.010 --> 00:25:18.089
school and his texts

726
00:25:18.090 --> 00:25:19.849
and writing had such an influence on

727
00:25:19.850 --> 00:25:21.069
me. And so to kind of be stepping

728
00:25:21.070 --> 00:25:22.489
into this place that has this

729
00:25:22.490 --> 00:25:24.969
legacy, I think.

730
00:25:24.970 --> 00:25:26.869
What is important to me is

731
00:25:26.870 --> 00:25:28.389
this understanding of the

732
00:25:28.390 --> 00:25:30.229
responsibility of being an

733
00:25:30.230 --> 00:25:32.089
image maker, what that holds, like a

734
00:25:32.090 --> 00:25:34.049
responsible maker, using

735
00:25:34.050 --> 00:25:35.969
this tool that has a legacy that

736
00:25:35.970 --> 00:25:38.109
it was pretty, it's incredibly

737
00:25:38.110 --> 00:25:39.969
problematic in its early days

738
00:25:39.970 --> 00:25:42.549
and how it represented native folks,

739
00:25:42.550 --> 00:25:44.589
people of color, otherizing.

740
00:25:44.590 --> 00:25:46.469
And so how do we use

741
00:25:46.470 --> 00:25:48.689
the logic of the tool kind of

742
00:25:48.690 --> 00:25:50.569
to, not against itself,

743
00:25:50.570 --> 00:25:52.229
but like almost to empower your own

744
00:25:52.230 --> 00:25:54.589
practice or kind of...

745
00:25:54.590 --> 00:25:56.969
Bring an empowerment with

746
00:25:56.970 --> 00:25:58.789
this tool that had this history.

747
00:25:58.790 --> 00:26:00.629
And so I approach my

748
00:26:00.630 --> 00:26:02.889
role there is to kind of

749
00:26:02.890 --> 00:26:04.809
give that same responsibility to

750
00:26:04.810 --> 00:26:06.649
the students of how do

751
00:26:06.650 --> 00:26:09.070
we use this in a meaningful,

752
00:26:10.130 --> 00:26:13.149
real kind of

753
00:26:13.150 --> 00:26:14.989
non-harm,

754
00:26:14.990 --> 00:26:16.190
in a way that doesn't cause harm.

755
00:26:17.840 --> 00:26:19.759
Yeah, I went to, I

756
00:26:19.760 --> 00:26:20.899
double dipped.

757
00:26:20.900 --> 00:26:23.099
I did my BFA from

758
00:26:23.100 --> 00:26:25.199
77 to 79, and

759
00:26:25.200 --> 00:26:27.379
I studied with John Baldessari then,

760
00:26:27.380 --> 00:26:29.479
and then I did by MFA, 87

761
00:26:29.480 --> 00:26:31.719
to 89, and studied with Alan Sikula

762
00:26:31.720 --> 00:26:33.380
and Catherine Lord and Mary Kelly.

763
00:26:34.940 --> 00:26:36.859
What happened in

764
00:26:36.860 --> 00:26:39.119
those years, in 77 and 79,

765
00:26:39.120 --> 00:26:41.299
with Baldessary, I realized that

766
00:26:41.300 --> 00:26:43.119
a photograph doesn't have a singular

767
00:26:43.120 --> 00:26:43.899
meaning.

768
00:26:43.900 --> 00:26:45.899
It is in context with something,

769
00:26:45.900 --> 00:26:47.599
what's next to it, and how you put

770
00:26:47.600 --> 00:26:48.999
something next to and the meaning

771
00:26:49.000 --> 00:26:50.899
can shift, the narrative can shift.

772
00:26:50.900 --> 00:26:54.059
So that means it's very unstable.

773
00:26:54.060 --> 00:26:55.859
And Sekula later said, well, what

774
00:26:55.860 --> 00:26:57.819
stabilizes it is

775
00:26:57.820 --> 00:26:59.879
a note

776
00:26:59.880 --> 00:27:01.859
at the bottom,

777
00:27:01.860 --> 00:27:02.819
a caption.

778
00:27:02.820 --> 00:27:04.039
A caption, when a photo has a

779
00:27:04.040 --> 00:27:05.959
caption, then you can anchor

780
00:27:05.960 --> 00:27:07.359
it. So that was in the back of my

781
00:27:07.360 --> 00:27:09.499
mind. I survived by

782
00:27:09.500 --> 00:27:11.160
taking pictures of

783
00:27:12.389 --> 00:27:14.309
I've shot lots of album covers and

784
00:27:14.310 --> 00:27:15.929
things, so that was my day job that

785
00:27:15.930 --> 00:27:17.269
allowed me to make art at night.

786
00:27:18.450 --> 00:27:20.489
So when I went back to grad school,

787
00:27:20.490 --> 00:27:22.589
87 to 89, I studied with Sekula

788
00:27:22.590 --> 00:27:24.749
and I got so annoyed with CalArts

789
00:27:24.750 --> 00:27:26.589
that I, at one crit,

790
00:27:27.590 --> 00:27:29.269
I just brought a whole box of my

791
00:27:29.270 --> 00:27:30.749
Michael Jackson photos and I dumped

792
00:27:30.750 --> 00:27:32.609
them on a table because I was his

793
00:27:32.610 --> 00:27:34.109
photographer for about four years.

794
00:27:36.030 --> 00:27:37.929
And Cathy Opie went

795
00:27:37.930 --> 00:27:39.249
to Allen and said, you know Todd

796
00:27:39.250 --> 00:27:41.089
Gray was, Michael was in

797
00:27:41.090 --> 00:27:43.229
the dark. So Alan called me into

798
00:27:43.230 --> 00:27:44.909
his office and said, oh, I hear you

799
00:27:44.910 --> 00:27:46.569
have an incredible archive.

800
00:27:46.570 --> 00:27:48.909
Why don't you do

801
00:27:48.910 --> 00:27:50.309
some work? And I said, boy, that's

802
00:27:50.310 --> 00:27:51.649
just pop music stuff.

803
00:27:51.650 --> 00:27:52.889
And he goes, no, that culture, that

804
00:27:52.890 --> 00:27:55.049
real. That's political.

805
00:27:55.050 --> 00:27:57.629
So he gave me a stack of books,

806
00:27:57.630 --> 00:27:59.549
Fanon, Du Bois, and all sorts

807
00:27:59.550 --> 00:28:01.409
of Foucault, a lot

808
00:28:01.410 --> 00:28:02.410
of critical thinking.

809
00:28:03.370 --> 00:28:05.329
And when I'm reading and

810
00:28:05.330 --> 00:28:07.229
I was writing about MJ

811
00:28:07.230 --> 00:28:09.179
in this critical way,

812
00:28:09.180 --> 00:28:10.999
and how he was a perfect example

813
00:28:11.000 --> 00:28:12.999
of a black man whose mind had been

814
00:28:13.000 --> 00:28:14.979
colonized, I realized that

815
00:28:14.980 --> 00:28:18.919
my mind had become colonized.

816
00:28:18.920 --> 00:28:21.059
And I saw his attempts

817
00:28:21.060 --> 00:28:23.059
to be more European, what have you,

818
00:28:23.060 --> 00:28:24.999
that was going on in my mind.

819
00:28:25.000 --> 00:28:26.839
And that's changed the trajectory

820
00:28:26.840 --> 00:28:29.199
of my work continuously.

821
00:28:29.200 --> 00:28:31.039
And so now my mission in my work is

822
00:28:31.040 --> 00:28:32.999
to actually keep

823
00:28:33.000 --> 00:28:34.919
coming back to that in various

824
00:28:34.920 --> 00:28:36.959
forms, either conceptually or

825
00:28:36.960 --> 00:28:37.959
pictorially.

826
00:28:37.960 --> 00:28:40.039
But that's why this whole idea

827
00:28:40.040 --> 00:28:41.859
of Africa's

828
00:28:41.860 --> 00:28:42.860
always in the work

829
00:28:43.800 --> 00:28:45.719
and the West and Europe and those

830
00:28:45.720 --> 00:28:47.519
relationships so that we don't

831
00:28:47.520 --> 00:28:49.619
forget how, well, I don't forget,

832
00:28:49.620 --> 00:28:51.539
I can't forget, how I got here, but

833
00:28:51.540 --> 00:28:52.739
so others can't forgive.

834
00:28:55.120 --> 00:28:57.279
I went to, I studied at CalArts and

835
00:28:57.280 --> 00:28:59.299
the master's program

836
00:28:59.300 --> 00:29:01.579
from 03 to 05,

837
00:29:01.580 --> 00:29:03.199
and CalArt provided two things.

838
00:29:03.200 --> 00:29:05.019
One was, this I

839
00:29:05.020 --> 00:29:06.879
don't think was the intention of the

840
00:29:06.880 --> 00:29:08.279
faculty or the other students or the

841
00:29:08.280 --> 00:29:09.280
staff.

842
00:29:09.780 --> 00:29:11.479
Like Todd and Mercedes, I also

843
00:29:11.480 --> 00:29:12.919
studied with Alan Sekula in addition

844
00:29:12.920 --> 00:29:14.499
to Michael Asher, Sheila Brooke,

845
00:29:14.500 --> 00:29:15.939
Ellen Burrell, and even someone like

846
00:29:15.940 --> 00:29:16.940
Waleed Bashti.

847
00:29:18.180 --> 00:29:19.379
I think a lot of the faculties in

848
00:29:19.380 --> 00:29:20.479
the curriculum there provided a

849
00:29:20.480 --> 00:29:21.639
framework for me.

850
00:29:21.640 --> 00:29:23.399
And I realized that framework was

851
00:29:23.400 --> 00:29:24.989
kind of in the distance.

852
00:29:24.990 --> 00:29:26.989
But it then provided a path

853
00:29:26.990 --> 00:29:28.869
to that framework, and now I

854
00:29:28.870 --> 00:29:30.049
understand what that framework is.

855
00:29:30.050 --> 00:29:31.629
I actually was able to take that

856
00:29:31.630 --> 00:29:33.269
path, and that was to then

857
00:29:33.270 --> 00:29:34.209
understand photography's

858
00:29:34.210 --> 00:29:37.009
relationship to, we could call,

859
00:29:37.010 --> 00:29:39.509
to borrow a Sikula title,

860
00:29:39.510 --> 00:29:40.709
respectfully.

861
00:29:40.710 --> 00:29:41.689
Photography's relationship between

862
00:29:41.690 --> 00:29:43.189
labor and capital.

863
00:29:43.190 --> 00:29:45.029
And so I didn't know that as a

864
00:29:45.030 --> 00:29:46.249
younger person, but now I'm

865
00:29:46.250 --> 00:29:47.929
realizing 20 years after, now that's

866
00:29:47.930 --> 00:29:49.429
what I'm headed towards, which is

867
00:29:49.430 --> 00:29:51.169
another way to say, CalArts helped

868
00:29:51.170 --> 00:29:52.229
me understand a relationship between

869
00:29:52.230 --> 00:29:54.109
photography and political economy.

870
00:29:54.110 --> 00:29:55.749
Which is in other ways, CalArts

871
00:29:55.750 --> 00:29:56.669
basically just helped me understand

872
00:29:56.670 --> 00:29:57.589
photography's relationship to

873
00:29:57.590 --> 00:29:58.669
capitalism. That's the easiest way

874
00:29:58.670 --> 00:29:59.549
to put that.

875
00:29:59.550 --> 00:30:00.909
The second thing I think CalArt's

876
00:30:00.910 --> 00:30:02.649
really helped me understand was

877
00:30:02.650 --> 00:30:04.649
photography itself is a medium.

878
00:30:04.650 --> 00:30:06.249
It's just embedded within these

879
00:30:06.250 --> 00:30:08.029
tacit and kind of explicit

880
00:30:08.030 --> 00:30:09.309
discourses.

881
00:30:09.310 --> 00:30:11.089
And photography is always encumbered

882
00:30:11.090 --> 00:30:12.689
by like claims of status, whether

883
00:30:12.690 --> 00:30:14.569
it's veracity, whether it could

884
00:30:14.570 --> 00:30:16.469
be art or it's actually a commercial

885
00:30:16.470 --> 00:30:17.649
application.

886
00:30:17.650 --> 00:30:19.509
And then there's issues of

887
00:30:19.510 --> 00:30:20.809
longevity and permanence.

888
00:30:20.810 --> 00:30:22.189
So, Those are just some of the

889
00:30:22.190 --> 00:30:23.549
discursive conditions that Kellert

890
00:30:23.550 --> 00:30:24.909
exposed me to in terms of

891
00:30:24.910 --> 00:30:26.669
photography specifically.

892
00:30:26.670 --> 00:30:27.989
I just want to add something to

893
00:30:27.990 --> 00:30:30.109
that, because when you're talking

894
00:30:30.110 --> 00:30:31.929
about photography,

895
00:30:31.930 --> 00:30:34.129
I really didn't realize the cultural

896
00:30:34.130 --> 00:30:35.409
impact that it has.

897
00:30:35.410 --> 00:30:37.249
It's the means by which,

898
00:30:37.250 --> 00:30:39.189
in media, we form our

899
00:30:39.190 --> 00:30:40.269
ideal of reality.

900
00:30:40.270 --> 00:30:42.009
We form our picture of the world.

901
00:30:42.010 --> 00:30:43.649
And much of that is through still

902
00:30:43.650 --> 00:30:45.729
photos or moving photos slash

903
00:30:45.730 --> 00:30:46.929
motion video.

904
00:30:46.930 --> 00:30:49.769
And that really affects

905
00:30:49.770 --> 00:30:51.689
how we interact and how we

906
00:30:51.690 --> 00:30:53.449
think. And it's so subtle.

907
00:30:53.450 --> 00:30:55.229
And this is how we take for granted,

908
00:30:55.230 --> 00:30:56.769
oh, this is things are because

909
00:30:56.770 --> 00:30:58.209
they've been pictured and presented

910
00:30:58.210 --> 00:30:59.789
in a certain way.

911
00:30:59.790 --> 00:31:01.609
So I think that whole

912
00:31:01.610 --> 00:31:03.789
idea comes direct,

913
00:31:03.790 --> 00:31:05.149
God, I think I'm giving CalArts too

914
00:31:05.150 --> 00:31:05.609
much props.

915
00:31:05.610 --> 00:31:06.219
Thank you.

916
00:31:06.220 --> 00:31:08.319
But that idea comes

917
00:31:08.320 --> 00:31:09.320
right out of that,

918
00:31:10.860 --> 00:31:11.860
and yeah, I'll pause there.

919
00:31:13.800 --> 00:31:16.019
Well, I notice in

920
00:31:16.020 --> 00:31:17.979
our audience, most of you are young

921
00:31:17.980 --> 00:31:20.019
artists or grad

922
00:31:20.020 --> 00:31:21.939
students, and

923
00:31:21.940 --> 00:31:23.939
that's why I wanted

924
00:31:23.940 --> 00:31:25.319
this conversation

925
00:31:26.780 --> 00:31:28.719
to be focused more

926
00:31:28.720 --> 00:31:30.819
on something that

927
00:31:30.820 --> 00:31:32.200
you can take away from.

928
00:31:33.880 --> 00:31:35.819
So, piggyback on what you guys just

929
00:31:35.820 --> 00:31:37.859
said, I wanted to ask

930
00:31:37.860 --> 00:31:39.699
the next question, is

931
00:31:39.700 --> 00:31:41.979
how do you bring that?

932
00:31:41.980 --> 00:31:43.899
Into your teaching,

933
00:31:43.900 --> 00:31:46.699
into your pedagogy.

934
00:31:46.700 --> 00:31:48.819
And more specifically,

935
00:31:48.820 --> 00:31:50.699
I wanted to

936
00:31:50.700 --> 00:31:52.739
ask you, what is the role

937
00:31:52.740 --> 00:31:54.759
of the art school today and

938
00:31:54.760 --> 00:31:57.019
what should the area of photography

939
00:31:57.020 --> 00:31:59.000
offer in 2026?

940
00:32:00.340 --> 00:32:02.199
As more and more students from

941
00:32:02.200 --> 00:32:04.439
the global south, working class

942
00:32:04.440 --> 00:32:06.419
backgrounds and the indigenous

943
00:32:06.420 --> 00:32:08.860
communities enter higher education.

944
00:32:10.310 --> 00:32:12.029
How are their perspectives

945
00:32:12.030 --> 00:32:13.949
transforming pedagogy

946
00:32:13.950 --> 00:32:16.529
and artistic practice?

947
00:32:16.530 --> 00:32:18.869
And given the substantial financial

948
00:32:18.870 --> 00:32:20.929
burden many

949
00:32:20.930 --> 00:32:22.829
are bearing, how should

950
00:32:22.830 --> 00:32:24.769
our educators address

951
00:32:24.770 --> 00:32:27.509
the tension between encouraging

952
00:32:27.510 --> 00:32:29.909
artistic aspiration

953
00:32:29.910 --> 00:32:32.349
and acknowledging uncertain

954
00:32:32.350 --> 00:32:35.049
economic outcomes?

955
00:32:35.050 --> 00:32:36.849
I just wanna jump in because I

956
00:32:36.850 --> 00:32:38.209
haven't been in a classroom teaching

957
00:32:38.210 --> 00:32:39.549
in 11 years.

958
00:32:39.550 --> 00:32:42.529
I'm a professor emeritus from

959
00:32:42.530 --> 00:32:44.009
Cal State Long Beach.

960
00:32:44.010 --> 00:32:46.049
But I was

961
00:32:46.050 --> 00:32:48.769
really insistent

962
00:32:48.770 --> 00:32:50.589
on sharing what my personal

963
00:32:50.590 --> 00:32:52.549
journey was with

964
00:32:52.550 --> 00:32:54.049
students and saying there's many

965
00:32:54.050 --> 00:32:55.989
ways to get to a

966
00:32:55.990 --> 00:32:57.069
place.

967
00:32:57.070 --> 00:32:59.009
And one of the, oh

968
00:32:59.010 --> 00:33:00.969
wow, I'm realizing

969
00:33:00.970 --> 00:33:03.609
when I was a guest speaker in,

970
00:33:05.310 --> 00:33:07.249
in Ghana, in this

971
00:33:07.250 --> 00:33:08.250
campus,

972
00:33:09.890 --> 00:33:11.449
I forget the name of the city, it'll

973
00:33:11.450 --> 00:33:12.450
come a little later,

974
00:33:13.650 --> 00:33:15.609
that one of the professors was

975
00:33:15.610 --> 00:33:17.429
saying, don't let the

976
00:33:17.430 --> 00:33:19.369
market use you, you

977
00:33:19.370 --> 00:33:20.370
use the market.

978
00:33:21.810 --> 00:33:23.809
And Cal Lawrence had taught,

979
00:33:23.810 --> 00:33:24.709
when I went there at different

980
00:33:24.710 --> 00:33:26.189
times, it's like, ah, the market's

981
00:33:26.190 --> 00:33:28.069
verboten, the idea is

982
00:33:28.070 --> 00:33:30.029
supreme, the idea's supreme.

983
00:33:30.030 --> 00:33:32.289
Whereas some of this program

984
00:33:32.290 --> 00:33:34.259
in Ghana was saying,

985
00:33:34.260 --> 00:33:36.339
no, the market exists, work with

986
00:33:36.340 --> 00:33:37.959
it.

987
00:33:37.960 --> 00:33:39.859
Ibrahim, he came out of that

988
00:33:39.860 --> 00:33:40.759
program.

989
00:33:40.760 --> 00:33:42.679
And then bring it

990
00:33:42.680 --> 00:33:44.779
back so that you can use

991
00:33:44.780 --> 00:33:46.879
it to

992
00:33:46.880 --> 00:33:47.880
create opportunities

993
00:33:49.800 --> 00:33:53.039
and raise economic

994
00:33:53.040 --> 00:33:54.919
conditions where

995
00:33:54.920 --> 00:33:55.799
you are.

996
00:33:55.800 --> 00:33:57.619
So hence, like what Theaster Gates

997
00:33:57.620 --> 00:33:58.699
is doing.

998
00:33:58.700 --> 00:34:00.639
And so this isn't

999
00:34:00.640 --> 00:34:02.959
specifically photography, But for

1000
00:34:02.960 --> 00:34:03.759
me...

1001
00:34:03.760 --> 00:34:05.859
I think there's ways to

1002
00:34:05.860 --> 00:34:08.138
acknowledge the big

1003
00:34:08.139 --> 00:34:10.158
elephant in the room, which is

1004
00:34:10.159 --> 00:34:12.019
capitalism, and then, okay,

1005
00:34:12.020 --> 00:34:14.059
then how can we not be

1006
00:34:14.060 --> 00:34:16.359
subjects of it, but actually

1007
00:34:16.360 --> 00:34:18.259
use it as a tool?

1008
00:34:18.260 --> 00:34:20.198
And so that's one

1009
00:34:20.199 --> 00:34:22.659
of the thought processes

1010
00:34:22.660 --> 00:34:25.238
that I came up with.

1011
00:34:25.239 --> 00:34:27.238
And also Long Beach, I

1012
00:34:27.239 --> 00:34:29.198
understand most of the students are

1013
00:34:29.199 --> 00:34:31.359
from working class, right?

1014
00:34:31.360 --> 00:34:33.638
And have you had an opportunity

1015
00:34:33.639 --> 00:34:36.059
to address that tension?

1016
00:34:36.060 --> 00:34:38.359
Well, when I was teaching, I was

1017
00:34:38.360 --> 00:34:40.419
telling them the realities of

1018
00:34:40.420 --> 00:34:42.359
that you might have to

1019
00:34:42.360 --> 00:34:44.319
get a regular nine-to-five

1020
00:34:44.320 --> 00:34:46.339
job or to really

1021
00:34:46.340 --> 00:34:48.198
increase your skill set

1022
00:34:48.199 --> 00:34:50.059
with photography because

1023
00:34:50.060 --> 00:34:51.899
there are, well,

1024
00:34:51.900 --> 00:34:53.999
this was 15 years ago

1025
00:34:54.000 --> 00:34:56.459
when the technology was

1026
00:34:56.460 --> 00:34:58.319
not, when

1027
00:34:58.320 --> 00:34:59.999
you had to have more expertise with

1028
00:35:00.000 --> 00:35:00.899
the technology.

1029
00:35:00.900 --> 00:35:02.339
Now the technology has gotten so

1030
00:35:02.340 --> 00:35:03.519
sophisticated that it requires

1031
00:35:03.520 --> 00:35:05.439
little expertise to do a lot of

1032
00:35:05.440 --> 00:35:07.399
things. But I was really leaning

1033
00:35:07.400 --> 00:35:09.439
into being able to control

1034
00:35:09.440 --> 00:35:11.579
your tools and so forth so that

1035
00:35:11.580 --> 00:35:13.599
you could get a J-O-B with

1036
00:35:13.600 --> 00:35:15.779
a camera and

1037
00:35:15.780 --> 00:35:17.879
seeing what possibilities

1038
00:35:17.880 --> 00:35:19.299
were out there or how you could

1039
00:35:19.300 --> 00:35:21.279
rethink it to create some kind

1040
00:35:21.280 --> 00:35:23.959
of economic platform.

1041
00:35:23.960 --> 00:35:25.899
But I've always said this, if you're

1042
00:35:25.900 --> 00:35:26.900
at Cal State,

1043
00:35:27.740 --> 00:35:29.619
the state system, that

1044
00:35:29.620 --> 00:35:30.739
means we're grooming you to be

1045
00:35:30.740 --> 00:35:32.799
teachers. We're grooming to

1046
00:35:32.800 --> 00:35:34.339
work at a certain level.

1047
00:35:34.340 --> 00:35:35.999
Whereas if you go to a UC...

1048
00:35:36.000 --> 00:35:37.619
Oh, they're grooming you to be at

1049
00:35:37.620 --> 00:35:39.099
management level. And I did this so

1050
00:35:39.100 --> 00:35:39.979
they'd have a chip on their

1051
00:35:39.980 --> 00:35:41.959
shoulders. I thought this was really

1052
00:35:41.960 --> 00:35:44.019
important to put this chip.

1053
00:35:44.020 --> 00:35:45.859
And the only way to get out

1054
00:35:45.860 --> 00:35:47.659
is to like what my parents said.

1055
00:35:47.660 --> 00:35:49.539
You got to work twice as hard to

1056
00:35:49.540 --> 00:35:50.659
get half as far.

1057
00:35:50.660 --> 00:35:52.779
And I always leaned into them,

1058
00:35:52.780 --> 00:35:53.939
that you got to outwork and out

1059
00:35:53.940 --> 00:35:55.879
hustle. And that that's just got

1060
00:35:55.880 --> 00:35:57.979
to be your daily routine, because

1061
00:35:57.980 --> 00:35:59.519
that's how I got here.

1062
00:35:59.520 --> 00:36:00.520
Oh, and oh,

1063
00:36:01.440 --> 00:36:03.839
one last thing that I would say.

1064
00:36:03.840 --> 00:36:05.858
Aim for the stars.

1065
00:36:05.859 --> 00:36:07.779
Because if you fall short,

1066
00:36:07.780 --> 00:36:08.879
maybe you can at least land on the

1067
00:36:08.880 --> 00:36:09.599
moon.

1068
00:36:09.600 --> 00:36:10.600
Thank you.

1069
00:36:12.300 --> 00:36:14.039
Yeah, I mean, I think this comes up

1070
00:36:14.040 --> 00:36:15.699
all the time, you know, these kind

1071
00:36:15.700 --> 00:36:17.139
of practical questions and they're

1072
00:36:17.140 --> 00:36:19.299
real questions and

1073
00:36:19.300 --> 00:36:21.419
it is

1074
00:36:21.420 --> 00:36:23.359
always hard because you don't have

1075
00:36:23.360 --> 00:36:24.939
the like, oh, if I do six years of

1076
00:36:24.940 --> 00:36:26.779
this thing, I will come out and have

1077
00:36:26.780 --> 00:36:28.419
an offer from this place.

1078
00:36:28.420 --> 00:36:30.599
But as the world moves,

1079
00:36:30.600 --> 00:36:33.139
like there are very few

1080
00:36:33.140 --> 00:36:34.999
trajectories that have that kind

1081
00:36:35.000 --> 00:36:36.439
of direct path so much.

1082
00:36:36.440 --> 00:36:38.379
And so what I always try to

1083
00:36:38.380 --> 00:36:40.199
focus on with my students

1084
00:36:40.200 --> 00:36:41.479
is like.

1085
00:36:41.480 --> 00:36:44.279
How do you find your

1086
00:36:44.280 --> 00:36:46.559
place of creativity, your voice,

1087
00:36:46.560 --> 00:36:48.339
where you generate from?

1088
00:36:48.340 --> 00:36:49.779
Because if you think about people

1089
00:36:49.780 --> 00:36:53.219
who work

1090
00:36:53.220 --> 00:36:54.859
in spaces and get called into

1091
00:36:54.860 --> 00:36:56.839
spaces, yes,

1092
00:36:56.840 --> 00:36:57.979
they probably have these technical

1093
00:36:57.980 --> 00:36:59.399
skills and they need the technical

1094
00:36:59.400 --> 00:37:00.719
skills and that's a starting place,

1095
00:37:00.720 --> 00:37:02.839
but you also have to have a vision

1096
00:37:02.840 --> 00:37:04.779
and know how to cultivate

1097
00:37:04.780 --> 00:37:05.609
that.

1098
00:37:05.610 --> 00:37:07.509
And I have a couple

1099
00:37:07.510 --> 00:37:08.749
students here, so tell me if I

1100
00:37:08.750 --> 00:37:10.589
failed. But I try not to tell

1101
00:37:10.590 --> 00:37:12.309
people what to do.

1102
00:37:12.310 --> 00:37:13.689
Because it's like, oh, you should

1103
00:37:13.690 --> 00:37:15.929
just do this project or that project

1104
00:37:15.930 --> 00:37:17.609
or approach it this way.

1105
00:37:17.610 --> 00:37:19.629
Because if I'm there as an educator

1106
00:37:19.630 --> 00:37:21.189
saying, telling them what to, what

1107
00:37:21.190 --> 00:37:22.829
does that person do once they're out

1108
00:37:22.830 --> 00:37:24.969
of that environment?

1109
00:37:24.970 --> 00:37:26.809
And then that to say, the other

1110
00:37:26.810 --> 00:37:28.649
thing I think, well, I

1111
00:37:28.650 --> 00:37:29.869
don't know, this is being recorded.

1112
00:37:29.870 --> 00:37:31.429
But my number one rule of being an

1113
00:37:31.430 --> 00:37:32.670
artist is don't be an asshole.

1114
00:37:33.810 --> 00:37:34.949
Like that's what I also tell them

1115
00:37:34.950 --> 00:37:35.779
because...

1116
00:37:35.780 --> 00:37:37.699
You think about what you need when

1117
00:37:37.700 --> 00:37:39.759
you exit a program or an environment

1118
00:37:39.760 --> 00:37:41.939
and it's a community

1119
00:37:41.940 --> 00:37:43.400
and it is a cohort and it a

1120
00:37:43.401 --> 00:37:44.279
collaborative space.

1121
00:37:44.280 --> 00:37:45.539
Like I think about students I see

1122
00:37:45.540 --> 00:37:47.219
working in the area or kind of being

1123
00:37:47.220 --> 00:37:49.339
out in the world and they support

1124
00:37:49.340 --> 00:37:51.019
each other and they curate each

1125
00:37:51.020 --> 00:37:53.459
other and they create fabrication

1126
00:37:53.460 --> 00:37:54.999
shops that build things for each

1127
00:37:55.000 --> 00:37:55.939
other.

1128
00:37:55.940 --> 00:37:58.299
And as much as that's not

1129
00:37:58.300 --> 00:37:59.879
exactly the answer to the question,

1130
00:37:59.880 --> 00:38:01.359
I do think there's that.

1131
00:38:01.360 --> 00:38:02.859
It's like building a community

1132
00:38:02.860 --> 00:38:04.259
instead of looking at the network.

1133
00:38:04.260 --> 00:38:05.699
I was speaking to...

1134
00:38:05.700 --> 00:38:07.099
Actually, I was in an opening of my

1135
00:38:07.100 --> 00:38:08.359
student the other night and his

1136
00:38:08.360 --> 00:38:09.599
parents were there and his father's

1137
00:38:09.600 --> 00:38:11.239
a lawyer and it was a lovely

1138
00:38:11.240 --> 00:38:13.179
conversation and he says, when

1139
00:38:13.180 --> 00:38:15.699
I go out, I don't tell my

1140
00:38:15.700 --> 00:38:17.839
mentees to give out business cards,

1141
00:38:17.840 --> 00:38:19.299
I tell them to have three real

1142
00:38:19.300 --> 00:38:20.300
conversations.

1143
00:38:21.040 --> 00:38:22.679
And I thought, you know, like that's

1144
00:38:22.680 --> 00:38:24.419
real, like how do you have actual

1145
00:38:24.420 --> 00:38:26.059
connections with people that are

1146
00:38:26.060 --> 00:38:27.979
deeper than just like, I mean,

1147
00:38:27.980 --> 00:38:29.479
you get a name on a piece of paper

1148
00:38:29.480 --> 00:38:31.019
and you forget, but if you actually

1149
00:38:31.020 --> 00:38:32.649
make that kind of.

1150
00:38:32.650 --> 00:38:34.649
Connection, that's something that

1151
00:38:34.650 --> 00:38:37.569
lasts. And I think that's how

1152
00:38:37.570 --> 00:38:39.469
networks of

1153
00:38:39.470 --> 00:38:41.389
art and, you know,

1154
00:38:41.390 --> 00:38:43.169
the quote unquote art world as it

1155
00:38:43.170 --> 00:38:45.569
is, which has many definitions,

1156
00:38:45.570 --> 00:38:47.089
gets expansive.

1157
00:38:49.520 --> 00:38:52.019
In my experience as an educator,

1158
00:38:52.020 --> 00:38:53.259
working with students in photography

1159
00:38:53.260 --> 00:38:55.439
has been, I think photography could

1160
00:38:55.440 --> 00:38:56.999
be, so I'm gonna highlight this,

1161
00:38:57.000 --> 00:38:59.119
could be this useful tool,

1162
00:38:59.120 --> 00:39:00.559
precisely because the medium of

1163
00:39:00.560 --> 00:39:02.559
photography doesn't have to be art,

1164
00:39:02.560 --> 00:39:03.519
and the medium of photography

1165
00:39:03.520 --> 00:39:04.379
doesn't need to be critically

1166
00:39:04.380 --> 00:39:06.479
oriented. That medium will exist,

1167
00:39:06.480 --> 00:39:07.419
it's so useful.

1168
00:39:07.420 --> 00:39:08.719
We all use it somehow today.

1169
00:39:08.720 --> 00:39:09.959
I'm sure everyone's taking pictures

1170
00:39:09.960 --> 00:39:10.960
on their phones.

1171
00:39:11.840 --> 00:39:13.679
But I think if a student

1172
00:39:13.680 --> 00:39:15.159
chooses to go a certain direction,

1173
00:39:15.160 --> 00:39:16.459
then they can encounter using the

1174
00:39:16.460 --> 00:39:18.189
medium, a photography.

1175
00:39:18.190 --> 00:39:20.389
In a critical way, if they want to,

1176
00:39:20.390 --> 00:39:22.229
right? They could figure out, how do

1177
00:39:22.230 --> 00:39:23.689
you use something that's so widely

1178
00:39:23.690 --> 00:39:25.509
available in culture to

1179
00:39:25.510 --> 00:39:27.829
a different way, right, so it's a

1180
00:39:27.830 --> 00:39:29.089
nice analogy, I think, is like how

1181
00:39:29.090 --> 00:39:30.709
we could use language in a very

1182
00:39:30.710 --> 00:39:31.709
instrumental, normal way, the way

1183
00:39:31.710 --> 00:39:33.669
I'm speaking now, and use that then

1184
00:39:33.670 --> 00:39:34.849
to say into poetry.

1185
00:39:34.850 --> 00:39:36.229
I think of photography in a similar

1186
00:39:36.230 --> 00:39:37.349
way, especially because I'm teaching

1187
00:39:37.350 --> 00:39:38.589
photography as art.

1188
00:39:38.590 --> 00:39:40.129
I'm not doing fashion photography.

1189
00:39:40.130 --> 00:39:41.809
I'm doing editorial photography or

1190
00:39:41.810 --> 00:39:43.589
architecture. I could, but I just

1191
00:39:43.590 --> 00:39:44.869
still have to be teaching it as art,

1192
00:39:45.950 --> 00:39:47.049
I think that's a really important

1193
00:39:47.050 --> 00:39:48.289
distinction for me, because I think

1194
00:39:48.290 --> 00:39:50.089
art then allows students to think

1195
00:39:50.090 --> 00:39:51.949
about the images they're making

1196
00:39:51.950 --> 00:39:54.409
and what those images refer to.

1197
00:39:54.410 --> 00:39:56.029
And I think, that distance between

1198
00:39:56.030 --> 00:39:57.889
what it refers to and the image

1199
00:39:57.890 --> 00:39:59.869
is really rife with

1200
00:39:59.870 --> 00:40:01.729
possibility in the educational

1201
00:40:01.730 --> 00:40:03.209
context.

1202
00:40:03.210 --> 00:40:04.749
For instance, the photo of Phil

1203
00:40:04.750 --> 00:40:05.869
Chang on the driver's license

1204
00:40:05.870 --> 00:40:06.949
hopefully looks like me.

1205
00:40:06.950 --> 00:40:08.469
There's a tight correspondence,

1206
00:40:08.470 --> 00:40:09.709
right? Especially if I'm gonna go

1207
00:40:09.710 --> 00:40:11.919
through TSA, right, or do whatever.

1208
00:40:11.920 --> 00:40:13.439
But I think if we're going to use

1209
00:40:13.440 --> 00:40:15.079
photography in an art context, you

1210
00:40:15.080 --> 00:40:16.719
have this ability to really think

1211
00:40:16.720 --> 00:40:17.919
about that relationship between

1212
00:40:17.920 --> 00:40:19.699
image and reference.

1213
00:40:19.700 --> 00:40:21.859
It can be very distant, it could be

1214
00:40:21.860 --> 00:40:23.459
conceptually conceived, it can be

1215
00:40:23.460 --> 00:40:24.739
also tight, just like the driver's

1216
00:40:24.740 --> 00:40:25.919
license photo too.

1217
00:40:25.920 --> 00:40:27.439
So that's a potential I think that I

1218
00:40:27.440 --> 00:40:29.119
have for teaching photography as

1219
00:40:29.120 --> 00:40:30.120
art.

1220
00:40:31.040 --> 00:40:32.879
And also, I understand you're

1221
00:40:32.880 --> 00:40:34.799
teaching in Bakersfield,

1222
00:40:34.800 --> 00:40:36.579
and Bakers field has a very

1223
00:40:36.580 --> 00:40:38.699
different demographics than,

1224
00:40:38.700 --> 00:40:40.779
say, in Los Angeles,

1225
00:40:40.780 --> 00:40:43.079
and you're a teaching photography

1226
00:40:43.080 --> 00:40:44.619
as art.

1227
00:40:44.620 --> 00:40:46.499
Do you get pushbacks from

1228
00:40:46.500 --> 00:40:48.359
students, or do you think

1229
00:40:48.360 --> 00:40:50.639
they look at your

1230
00:40:50.640 --> 00:40:52.599
curriculum with the

1231
00:40:52.600 --> 00:40:53.889
questions?

1232
00:40:53.890 --> 00:40:56.249
I don't get pushback, but I'm

1233
00:40:56.250 --> 00:40:57.369
teaching them skills.

1234
00:40:57.370 --> 00:40:59.249
If they want to go on, and I don't

1235
00:40:59.250 --> 00:41:00.489
expect them to be artists using

1236
00:41:00.490 --> 00:41:02.069
photography or artists just in

1237
00:41:02.070 --> 00:41:03.929
general, they can have

1238
00:41:03.930 --> 00:41:05.129
the same skills.

1239
00:41:05.130 --> 00:41:06.429
We're learning the camera, we're

1240
00:41:06.430 --> 00:41:08.869
learning software, we're learn AI,

1241
00:41:08.870 --> 00:41:10.409
but we're also learning how to be

1242
00:41:10.410 --> 00:41:11.909
together and commune in person or

1243
00:41:11.910 --> 00:41:13.649
Zoom, let's say, and to think

1244
00:41:13.650 --> 00:41:15.669
critically, but to also then

1245
00:41:15.670 --> 00:41:17.329
figure out reciprocity with one

1246
00:41:17.330 --> 00:41:18.389
another, and that can be in the

1247
00:41:18.390 --> 00:41:19.469
critique format or reading

1248
00:41:19.470 --> 00:41:20.849
discussion or discussion around a

1249
00:41:20.850 --> 00:41:22.459
film or a field trip.

1250
00:41:22.460 --> 00:41:23.539
Mercedes said something really

1251
00:41:23.540 --> 00:41:24.419
interesting and that was the issue

1252
00:41:24.420 --> 00:41:25.919
of responsibility.

1253
00:41:25.920 --> 00:41:27.639
And I think that's a great potential

1254
00:41:27.640 --> 00:41:29.039
of photography, precisely because

1255
00:41:29.040 --> 00:41:30.439
photography is so connected to the

1256
00:41:30.440 --> 00:41:31.459
world.

1257
00:41:31.460 --> 00:41:33.379
And so I like to always, the

1258
00:41:33.380 --> 00:41:35.319
prime example in my classes and my

1259
00:41:35.320 --> 00:41:36.499
experience teaching is students

1260
00:41:36.500 --> 00:41:38.499
wanting to engage with unhoused

1261
00:41:38.500 --> 00:41:39.799
homeless crisis.

1262
00:41:39.800 --> 00:41:40.799
And if we're gonna take photographs

1263
00:41:40.800 --> 00:41:42.679
of that, right, then we have

1264
00:41:42.680 --> 00:41:44.239
a really interesting conversation,

1265
00:41:44.240 --> 00:41:45.099
right? Because they have to figure

1266
00:41:45.100 --> 00:41:46.359
out how to be responsible with the

1267
00:41:46.360 --> 00:41:47.699
production of those images of those

1268
00:41:47.700 --> 00:41:49.539
people. And then the question is

1269
00:41:49.540 --> 00:41:51.209
like what does that mean to

1270
00:41:51.210 --> 00:41:52.169
aestheticize suffering?

1271
00:41:52.170 --> 00:41:53.009
What does that means to

1272
00:41:53.010 --> 00:41:54.769
aestheticized or to visualize a

1273
00:41:54.770 --> 00:41:56.009
social problem?

1274
00:41:56.010 --> 00:41:57.109
Are you trying to address it through

1275
00:41:57.110 --> 00:41:58.749
the photography?

1276
00:41:58.750 --> 00:42:00.429
Or is there a better activity that

1277
00:42:00.430 --> 00:42:01.789
you could use other than photography

1278
00:42:01.790 --> 00:42:03.369
to address, let's say, this issue of

1279
00:42:03.370 --> 00:42:04.809
being unhoused or homeless crisis?

1280
00:42:04.810 --> 00:42:06.010
I'm just using that as an example.

1281
00:42:07.030 --> 00:42:08.409
It really helps because we get to

1282
00:42:08.410 --> 00:42:09.429
think through this firsthand.

1283
00:42:13.150 --> 00:42:14.969
Well, maybe we move on to the

1284
00:42:14.970 --> 00:42:16.469
next question.

1285
00:42:16.470 --> 00:42:18.329
So the next questions is

1286
00:42:18.330 --> 00:42:20.989
about your own practice,

1287
00:42:20.990 --> 00:42:23.009
and specifically about using

1288
00:42:23.010 --> 00:42:24.010
archives.

1289
00:42:25.310 --> 00:42:27.269
So imaging technology has

1290
00:42:27.270 --> 00:42:29.509
historically been entangled

1291
00:42:29.510 --> 00:42:31.329
with a colonial power.

1292
00:42:31.330 --> 00:42:33.409
Alan Sakula and Stuart

1293
00:42:33.410 --> 00:42:35.409
Hall positioned the

1294
00:42:35.410 --> 00:42:37.809
medium within social, political,

1295
00:42:37.810 --> 00:42:39.529
and economic struggle.

1296
00:42:39.530 --> 00:42:42.129
With Hall specifically examining

1297
00:42:42.130 --> 00:42:44.289
colonialism and how race,

1298
00:42:44.290 --> 00:42:45.290
gender, class,

1299
00:42:46.430 --> 00:42:48.549
and diaspora function as

1300
00:42:48.550 --> 00:42:50.989
signifiers in photography.

1301
00:42:50.990 --> 00:42:52.829
So I would like you guys to

1302
00:42:52.830 --> 00:42:54.589
unpack a little bit more like how

1303
00:42:54.590 --> 00:42:56.589
you use archives in

1304
00:42:56.590 --> 00:42:58.649
your work as

1305
00:42:58.650 --> 00:43:00.569
contested ground,

1306
00:43:00.570 --> 00:43:03.549
not neutral record.

1307
00:43:03.550 --> 00:43:05.549
Mercedes, when you photograph

1308
00:43:05.550 --> 00:43:07.779
landscape, How do you reclaim

1309
00:43:07.780 --> 00:43:09.639
a gaze historically used

1310
00:43:09.640 --> 00:43:12.019
to dispossess indigenous

1311
00:43:12.020 --> 00:43:13.039
peoples?

1312
00:43:13.040 --> 00:43:14.999
And what archives are you currently

1313
00:43:15.000 --> 00:43:17.079
entering and which must

1314
00:43:17.080 --> 00:43:19.839
be refused or reimagined?

1315
00:43:19.840 --> 00:43:21.739
And Todd, your personal

1316
00:43:21.740 --> 00:43:24.039
archive of musicians now

1317
00:43:24.040 --> 00:43:26.439
dialogs with the images from

1318
00:43:26.440 --> 00:43:28.779
Africa and Europe you

1319
00:43:28.780 --> 00:43:30.079
have taken.

1320
00:43:30.080 --> 00:43:32.399
How does this juxtaposition

1321
00:43:32.400 --> 00:43:35.469
help you examine globalization?

1322
00:43:35.470 --> 00:43:37.689
And the ongoing legacies of

1323
00:43:37.690 --> 00:43:39.969
colonial extraction.

1324
00:43:39.970 --> 00:43:42.869
Phil, your work investigates

1325
00:43:42.870 --> 00:43:45.709
photography's material conditions.

1326
00:43:45.710 --> 00:43:47.889
How do these physical properties

1327
00:43:47.890 --> 00:43:49.250
carry political meaning?

1328
00:43:51.660 --> 00:43:53.779
Well, I'll say that

1329
00:43:53.780 --> 00:43:55.959
as a

1330
00:43:55.960 --> 00:43:58.599
Native person,

1331
00:43:58.600 --> 00:44:00.599
and in being a student, I was,

1332
00:44:00.600 --> 00:44:02.979
from a very early point,

1333
00:44:02.980 --> 00:44:04.879
very concerned

1334
00:44:04.880 --> 00:44:06.859
and resistant towards

1335
00:44:06.860 --> 00:44:08.519
ideas of stereotyping, because

1336
00:44:08.520 --> 00:44:09.659
Native people have been so

1337
00:44:09.660 --> 00:44:11.239
stereotyped in how we're supposed to

1338
00:44:11.240 --> 00:44:12.779
look and what we're supposed to wear

1339
00:44:12.780 --> 00:44:14.219
and everything.

1340
00:44:14.220 --> 00:44:15.539
And there's a lot of questions

1341
00:44:15.540 --> 00:44:16.979
around authenticity.

1342
00:44:16.980 --> 00:44:18.679
And you think of like Curtis, right?

1343
00:44:18.680 --> 00:44:20.539
And this kind of archive of

1344
00:44:20.540 --> 00:44:22.249
this intent to.

1345
00:44:22.250 --> 00:44:24.389
Image the vanishing

1346
00:44:24.390 --> 00:44:26.249
race, right?

1347
00:44:26.250 --> 00:44:28.109
And built within that is the idea

1348
00:44:28.110 --> 00:44:29.449
of vanishing.

1349
00:44:29.450 --> 00:44:31.409
And so you think

1350
00:44:31.410 --> 00:44:33.309
about how do you use the

1351
00:44:33.310 --> 00:44:35.329
photograph as a tool

1352
00:44:35.330 --> 00:44:37.389
of resistance and presence

1353
00:44:37.390 --> 00:44:39.429
and ideas around

1354
00:44:39.430 --> 00:44:41.289
permanence and

1355
00:44:41.290 --> 00:44:42.649
vitality.

1356
00:44:42.650 --> 00:44:44.569
And so in my photographs and my

1357
00:44:44.570 --> 00:44:45.969
installation, there's always kind of

1358
00:44:45.970 --> 00:44:47.989
this heavy hand that I'm

1359
00:44:47.990 --> 00:44:50.769
like tangibly physically involved.

1360
00:44:50.770 --> 00:44:53.149
With that work to kind of

1361
00:44:53.150 --> 00:44:55.169
insist on an indigenous

1362
00:44:55.170 --> 00:44:57.109
presence and using the

1363
00:44:57.110 --> 00:44:59.069
camera as a tool particularly

1364
00:44:59.070 --> 00:45:01.169
so that we understand

1365
00:45:01.170 --> 00:45:03.169
that this record of

1366
00:45:03.170 --> 00:45:04.909
this arrangement or this

1367
00:45:04.910 --> 00:45:07.049
intervention or this land

1368
00:45:07.050 --> 00:45:09.509
has a permanence to it.

1369
00:45:09.510 --> 00:45:10.849
In a, you know, growing up in Los

1370
00:45:10.850 --> 00:45:12.709
Angeles, it's a city that, you

1371
00:45:12.710 --> 00:45:14.709
now, when I went to UCLA and

1372
00:45:14.710 --> 00:45:16.289
walked into the library, you know

1373
00:45:16.290 --> 00:45:18.129
you read a book that says all

1374
00:45:18.130 --> 00:45:19.989
the Tongva, would have been

1375
00:45:19.990 --> 00:45:22.049
called Gabrielino in that book,

1376
00:45:22.050 --> 00:45:23.969
but were died, they all

1377
00:45:23.970 --> 00:45:24.929
died.

1378
00:45:24.930 --> 00:45:25.969
And you're standing there like, you

1379
00:45:25.970 --> 00:45:27.989
know, grappling with that.

1380
00:45:27.990 --> 00:45:31.029
You know, how do you deal with that?

1381
00:45:31.030 --> 00:45:32.669
Or working as a cultural consultant

1382
00:45:32.670 --> 00:45:33.769
on these sites where you're

1383
00:45:33.770 --> 00:45:35.289
literally seeing your ancestors

1384
00:45:35.290 --> 00:45:37.329
exhumed and their cultural

1385
00:45:37.330 --> 00:45:39.729
belongings relocated.

1386
00:45:39.730 --> 00:45:41.369
And so, like, there's been a lot

1387
00:45:41.370 --> 00:45:43.509
about presence

1388
00:45:43.510 --> 00:45:45.529
and land, particularly,

1389
00:45:45.530 --> 00:45:46.889
that I've always been.

1390
00:45:49.520 --> 00:45:51.519
Wrapped up in, you know,

1391
00:45:51.520 --> 00:45:53.339
the earlier kind of moments about

1392
00:45:53.340 --> 00:45:54.899
finding places of belonging.

1393
00:45:54.900 --> 00:45:56.179
It's like, that's important to me.

1394
00:45:56.180 --> 00:45:57.699
That's important as a person of this

1395
00:45:57.700 --> 00:45:59.699
city. How do you find a place here

1396
00:45:59.700 --> 00:46:01.759
particularly where you

1397
00:46:01.760 --> 00:46:03.719
feel like you belong as a native

1398
00:46:03.720 --> 00:46:04.959
person?

1399
00:46:04.960 --> 00:46:06.339
And through the photograph and my

1400
00:46:06.340 --> 00:46:08.879
practice is how I've inserted

1401
00:46:08.880 --> 00:46:11.259
myself into those spaces,

1402
00:46:11.260 --> 00:46:12.759
even though the access might be

1403
00:46:12.760 --> 00:46:14.279
temporary.

1404
00:46:14.280 --> 00:46:16.259
The most recent body of work where

1405
00:46:16.260 --> 00:46:18.279
I'm working in the UC

1406
00:46:18.280 --> 00:46:20.099
Reserve on Santa Cruz Island

1407
00:46:20.100 --> 00:46:22.259
or Lemu or out on Pimungna

1408
00:46:22.260 --> 00:46:24.479
or Santa Catalina Island and

1409
00:46:24.480 --> 00:46:25.879
working through these spaces that

1410
00:46:25.880 --> 00:46:27.639
have been much less impacted has

1411
00:46:27.640 --> 00:46:28.859
been interesting.

1412
00:46:28.860 --> 00:46:31.059
I think there the land speaks

1413
00:46:31.060 --> 00:46:33.039
in ways and the beings there

1414
00:46:33.040 --> 00:46:34.859
speak in ways that is

1415
00:46:34.860 --> 00:46:35.839
a little bit different.

1416
00:46:35.840 --> 00:46:37.719
So I think it needs less of my

1417
00:46:37.720 --> 00:46:38.799
hand, which is what I was saying

1418
00:46:38.800 --> 00:46:40.079
earlier, to intervene.

1419
00:46:40.080 --> 00:46:41.959
But the photos,

1420
00:46:41.960 --> 00:46:43.919
the photographs still hold this kind

1421
00:46:43.920 --> 00:46:44.709
of.

1422
00:46:44.710 --> 00:46:46.749
I think interaction of

1423
00:46:46.750 --> 00:46:48.149
me in that place, they're meant to

1424
00:46:48.150 --> 00:46:49.269
be very subjective.

1425
00:46:50.290 --> 00:46:52.209
I'm not trying to kind of take this

1426
00:46:52.210 --> 00:46:54.109
objective standing back.

1427
00:46:54.110 --> 00:46:55.429
I actually want them to be a bit

1428
00:46:55.430 --> 00:46:57.329
disorienting because if you think

1429
00:46:57.330 --> 00:46:59.729
of like where,

1430
00:46:59.730 --> 00:47:01.589
you know, people come away from it,

1431
00:47:01.590 --> 00:47:03.309
it's with a lot of questions.

1432
00:47:03.310 --> 00:47:04.249
You know, that's why I think it's

1433
00:47:04.250 --> 00:47:06.069
good to be like, I don't know the

1434
00:47:06.070 --> 00:47:07.889
answer to this. I hope, you know I

1435
00:47:07.890 --> 00:47:09.749
speak in Tongva as much as I can and

1436
00:47:09.750 --> 00:47:11.269
I put my titles in Tongvo as much I

1437
00:47:11.270 --> 00:47:13.169
can to spark that kind of

1438
00:47:13.170 --> 00:47:14.689
curiosity.

1439
00:47:14.690 --> 00:47:16.509
And also speak to like an

1440
00:47:16.510 --> 00:47:18.449
active existence

1441
00:47:18.450 --> 00:47:20.170
and cultural kind of practice.

1442
00:47:21.680 --> 00:47:23.619
I think it's great that you asked

1443
00:47:23.620 --> 00:47:25.679
me about the archive

1444
00:47:25.680 --> 00:47:28.439
because of my

1445
00:47:28.440 --> 00:47:30.739
studying with Alan Sekula

1446
00:47:30.740 --> 00:47:32.779
and that

1447
00:47:32.780 --> 00:47:35.099
was really primary

1448
00:47:35.100 --> 00:47:37.119
in his practice and the importance

1449
00:47:37.120 --> 00:47:39.039
of an archive because

1450
00:47:39.040 --> 00:47:40.979
it's a reservoir of knowledge.

1451
00:47:40.980 --> 00:47:43.579
So every my 50 years of

1452
00:47:43.580 --> 00:47:45.459
photographs are in,

1453
00:47:45.460 --> 00:47:46.939
I've had them digitized and they're

1454
00:47:46.940 --> 00:47:49.679
in an archive. And then, of course,

1455
00:47:49.680 --> 00:47:51.089
Stuart Hall.

1456
00:47:51.090 --> 00:47:53.129
Opens up my mind and

1457
00:47:53.130 --> 00:47:55.189
opens up this idea of

1458
00:47:55.190 --> 00:47:57.509
how photography really

1459
00:47:57.510 --> 00:47:59.369
is a conduit

1460
00:47:59.370 --> 00:48:02.809
or it really is tool of hegemony.

1461
00:48:02.810 --> 00:48:04.989
Of how dominant culture

1462
00:48:04.990 --> 00:48:06.589
can maintain its dominance.

1463
00:48:07.610 --> 00:48:09.030
It's Fox News.

1464
00:48:10.150 --> 00:48:12.229
Dominant culture can maintained of

1465
00:48:12.230 --> 00:48:14.309
that audience through images

1466
00:48:14.310 --> 00:48:15.669
and through narratives that it

1467
00:48:15.670 --> 00:48:17.709
attached to those images which

1468
00:48:17.710 --> 00:48:19.729
again creates our concept of

1469
00:48:19.730 --> 00:48:20.699
reality.

1470
00:48:20.700 --> 00:48:21.700
Or a meaning.

1471
00:48:24.220 --> 00:48:26.219
And when I realized

1472
00:48:26.220 --> 00:48:28.099
that this was being

1473
00:48:28.100 --> 00:48:29.100
done

1474
00:48:30.480 --> 00:48:32.459
through colonizers,

1475
00:48:32.460 --> 00:48:34.479
then I really started to think

1476
00:48:34.480 --> 00:48:36.439
how I can use that

1477
00:48:36.440 --> 00:48:38.180
in my work, in my own history.

1478
00:48:39.520 --> 00:48:41.539
And one of the things that

1479
00:48:41.540 --> 00:48:43.619
I did when I first started was

1480
00:48:43.620 --> 00:48:45.639
I would use these photos of Michael

1481
00:48:45.640 --> 00:48:47.579
Jackson that I have and I'd

1482
00:48:47.580 --> 00:48:49.559
place a portrait of

1483
00:48:49.560 --> 00:48:50.969
him and a landscape.

1484
00:48:50.970 --> 00:48:52.249
And then I realized, wait, if I do

1485
00:48:52.250 --> 00:48:53.729
that, it won't be about African

1486
00:48:53.730 --> 00:48:55.729
diaspora, it'll be about him.

1487
00:48:55.730 --> 00:48:57.829
So I would always cover his

1488
00:48:57.830 --> 00:49:00.289
face up with another photograph.

1489
00:49:00.290 --> 00:49:02.109
And that would, now, oh, who

1490
00:49:02.110 --> 00:49:04.689
is that? Now it makes the

1491
00:49:04.690 --> 00:49:06.369
image becomes ambiguous.

1492
00:49:06.370 --> 00:49:08.369
And then, I leaned heavily

1493
00:49:08.370 --> 00:49:10.189
into Stuart Hall because he

1494
00:49:10.190 --> 00:49:12.249
says, we cannot overthrow

1495
00:49:12.250 --> 00:49:13.349
hegemony.

1496
00:49:13.350 --> 00:49:15.769
Our power rests in resisting.

1497
00:49:15.770 --> 00:49:17.709
And hegemone makes the

1498
00:49:17.710 --> 00:49:19.879
normal, what's called normativity.

1499
00:49:19.880 --> 00:49:22.119
Is how we maintain

1500
00:49:22.120 --> 00:49:23.939
these ideas and

1501
00:49:23.940 --> 00:49:25.999
concepts of what

1502
00:49:26.000 --> 00:49:27.839
should be happening, or what

1503
00:49:27.840 --> 00:49:30.079
is real. Oh, it's been normalized,

1504
00:49:30.080 --> 00:49:31.979
or behavior's normalized.

1505
00:49:31.980 --> 00:49:34.419
So I went and I looked and

1506
00:49:34.420 --> 00:49:36.239
questioned, I wanted to upset the

1507
00:49:36.240 --> 00:49:37.979
apple cart of photography.

1508
00:49:37.980 --> 00:49:39.279
So photography's supposed to be

1509
00:49:39.280 --> 00:49:40.179
two-dimensional.

1510
00:49:40.180 --> 00:49:41.299
So that's immediately, I said, I'm

1511
00:49:41.300 --> 00:49:42.359
gonna make it three-dimensional, I'm

1512
00:49:42.360 --> 00:49:43.659
going to frameworks and put them on

1513
00:49:43.660 --> 00:49:44.779
top of each other.

1514
00:49:44.780 --> 00:49:47.849
Photography is supposed to have.

1515
00:49:47.850 --> 00:49:49.189
We rectilinear, well I'm gonna

1516
00:49:49.190 --> 00:49:51.129
introduce ovals and circles in

1517
00:49:51.130 --> 00:49:53.189
it, and photography is supposed

1518
00:49:53.190 --> 00:49:53.989
to make a statement.

1519
00:49:53.990 --> 00:49:55.289
Well I'm going to make it ask a

1520
00:49:55.290 --> 00:49:56.929
question because I'm make it more

1521
00:49:56.930 --> 00:49:58.869
obscure, and I'm go to

1522
00:49:58.870 --> 00:50:00.969
put in multiple meanings instead

1523
00:50:00.970 --> 00:50:02.369
of reducing it to a singular

1524
00:50:02.370 --> 00:50:04.029
meaning. So all of these things come

1525
00:50:04.030 --> 00:50:06.609
out, and then by

1526
00:50:06.610 --> 00:50:08.889
doing this and dialoguing

1527
00:50:08.890 --> 00:50:11.409
about being an African diasporic

1528
00:50:11.410 --> 00:50:13.569
individual, hopefully then it

1529
00:50:13.570 --> 00:50:15.529
starts asking questions about the

1530
00:50:15.530 --> 00:50:16.469
Atlantic crossing.

1531
00:50:16.470 --> 00:50:17.919
How do we get here?

1532
00:50:17.920 --> 00:50:20.739
And in the last few years,

1533
00:50:20.740 --> 00:50:22.459
like these beautiful, beautiful

1534
00:50:22.460 --> 00:50:24.099
landscapes I take, but I'm on an

1535
00:50:24.100 --> 00:50:26.279
African slave, on a historically

1536
00:50:26.280 --> 00:50:28.319
documented slave trail.

1537
00:50:28.320 --> 00:50:29.739
So there's beauty, but underneath

1538
00:50:29.740 --> 00:50:32.499
that beauty is an immense horror.

1539
00:50:32.500 --> 00:50:35.279
And so I use beauty as

1540
00:50:35.280 --> 00:50:37.239
a tool, a technique, to get the

1541
00:50:37.240 --> 00:50:39.199
viewer in, get them interested.

1542
00:50:39.200 --> 00:50:40.519
And then, but hey, but what's

1543
00:50:40.520 --> 00:50:41.739
happening? And hopefully through

1544
00:50:41.740 --> 00:50:43.559
these questions, that

1545
00:50:43.560 --> 00:50:45.239
they will come to a...

1546
00:50:45.240 --> 00:50:47.099
Better understanding or they'll

1547
00:50:47.100 --> 00:50:48.819
come to their own meaning or

1548
00:50:48.820 --> 00:50:51.139
meanings because the plurality,

1549
00:50:51.140 --> 00:50:52.959
I'm after pluralities, not

1550
00:50:52.960 --> 00:50:54.779
binaries, good, bad,

1551
00:50:54.780 --> 00:50:56.779
up, down, yes, no, and that's

1552
00:50:56.780 --> 00:50:58.339
what I'm really pulling out.

1553
00:50:58.340 --> 00:51:00.319
And I think I might also say

1554
00:51:00.320 --> 00:51:01.839
that lately in the last couple of

1555
00:51:01.840 --> 00:51:03.819
years, now I'm photographing

1556
00:51:03.820 --> 00:51:05.679
African chiefs in these different

1557
00:51:05.680 --> 00:51:07.619
celebrations because those were

1558
00:51:07.620 --> 00:51:09.479
the ones that sold us to

1559
00:51:09.480 --> 00:51:11.459
the Westerners, to the Europeans,

1560
00:51:11.460 --> 00:51:12.559
to Americans.

1561
00:51:12.560 --> 00:51:14.379
And we don't talk about that.

1562
00:51:14.380 --> 00:51:16.519
So that's really important

1563
00:51:16.520 --> 00:51:18.839
to talk about power,

1564
00:51:18.840 --> 00:51:20.959
just power and how it exists

1565
00:51:20.960 --> 00:51:22.639
and how is brutalizes.

1566
00:51:25.730 --> 00:51:27.309
I, I'm gonna try my best to answer

1567
00:51:27.310 --> 00:51:28.309
this because I think it's a really

1568
00:51:28.310 --> 00:51:29.389
great question.

1569
00:51:29.390 --> 00:51:31.509
I don't work overtly

1570
00:51:31.510 --> 00:51:33.649
with archival materials or

1571
00:51:33.650 --> 00:51:35.029
we could say through archival

1572
00:51:35.030 --> 00:51:36.869
impulse but the

1573
00:51:36.870 --> 00:51:38.349
best way for me to answer this is I

1574
00:51:38.350 --> 00:51:40.529
am actually using, I

1575
00:51:40.530 --> 00:51:42.149
use expired photographic paper

1576
00:51:42.150 --> 00:51:44.229
that's obsolete and that is produced

1577
00:51:44.230 --> 00:51:46.089
by Kodak, the Kodac Corporation

1578
00:51:46.090 --> 00:51:48.489
and it ceased production in 1993.

1579
00:51:48.490 --> 00:51:49.869
And so it's not really an archive

1580
00:51:49.870 --> 00:51:52.339
but it's stash or it's.

1581
00:51:52.340 --> 00:51:54.579
It's like me hoarding materials that

1582
00:51:54.580 --> 00:51:56.199
really have no, thank you for

1583
00:51:56.200 --> 00:51:57.019
laughing.

1584
00:51:57.020 --> 00:51:59.039
It's me, hoarding is a terrible

1585
00:51:59.040 --> 00:51:59.979
word too because it's really not

1586
00:51:59.980 --> 00:52:01.099
that available.

1587
00:52:01.100 --> 00:52:02.519
It's a material that has no

1588
00:52:02.520 --> 00:52:04.199
commercial application anymore.

1589
00:52:04.200 --> 00:52:05.979
The only application I've found

1590
00:52:05.980 --> 00:52:08.419
that's useful for us for art.

1591
00:52:08.420 --> 00:52:10.339
And so, if

1592
00:52:10.340 --> 00:52:12.759
anything archival related to that,

1593
00:52:12.760 --> 00:52:14.539
it's me trying to resuscitate

1594
00:52:14.540 --> 00:52:15.719
material that has not commercial

1595
00:52:15.720 --> 00:52:17.419
value, basically no use value if you

1596
00:52:17.420 --> 00:52:18.219
will.

1597
00:52:18.220 --> 00:52:19.759
To then figure out how can you then

1598
00:52:19.760 --> 00:52:21.759
circulate this within another type

1599
00:52:21.760 --> 00:52:22.739
of economy or another type

1600
00:52:22.740 --> 00:52:24.159
marketplace.

1601
00:52:24.160 --> 00:52:25.539
And so what that has really taught

1602
00:52:25.540 --> 00:52:27.419
me were our issues and very,

1603
00:52:27.420 --> 00:52:28.659
these are not even art issues, these

1604
00:52:28.660 --> 00:52:30.379
are issues related to our lives or

1605
00:52:30.380 --> 00:52:31.839
economy or economics, that's

1606
00:52:31.840 --> 00:52:33.339
scarcity and value.

1607
00:52:33.340 --> 00:52:35.399
And so it's had me really confront

1608
00:52:35.400 --> 00:52:36.819
these things.

1609
00:52:36.820 --> 00:52:38.139
The photographic paper that I rely

1610
00:52:38.140 --> 00:52:39.999
on is no longer

1611
00:52:40.000 --> 00:52:40.939
available.

1612
00:52:40.940 --> 00:52:42.899
I get lucky if I find it on eBay

1613
00:52:42.900 --> 00:52:44.779
or some type of online platform.

1614
00:52:44.780 --> 00:52:44.853
I'm going to go ahead and turn the volume down a little bit so you can

1615
00:52:44.854 --> 00:52:44.945
hear me better. I'm doing a full-volume. I'm trying to get the volume up

1616
00:52:44.946 --> 00:52:46.329
a little more. I don't know why an

1617
00:52:46.330 --> 00:52:48.289
individual even has it to sell,

1618
00:52:48.290 --> 00:52:50.229
but someone realizes they could

1619
00:52:50.230 --> 00:52:52.029
find some guy like me making art

1620
00:52:52.030 --> 00:52:53.729
from it, right?

1621
00:52:53.730 --> 00:52:55.249
And then a whole new supply chain

1622
00:52:55.250 --> 00:52:56.610
emerges, a whole economy emerges.

1623
00:52:58.180 --> 00:52:59.439
Oh, I just remembered the name of

1624
00:52:59.440 --> 00:53:00.840
that university in Ghana.

1625
00:53:02.080 --> 00:53:03.119
It's Kumasi,

1626
00:53:04.700 --> 00:53:05.700
national,

1627
00:53:07.360 --> 00:53:09.539
Nkrumah University in Kumasi.

1628
00:53:09.540 --> 00:53:11.959
And that is, it's

1629
00:53:11.960 --> 00:53:13.939
a very strong Marxist

1630
00:53:13.940 --> 00:53:15.779
program where they teach you to

1631
00:53:15.780 --> 00:53:17.179
embrace the market.

1632
00:53:17.180 --> 00:53:19.339
And I think it's radical shift

1633
00:53:19.340 --> 00:53:20.699
to how art's being taught.

1634
00:53:20.700 --> 00:53:23.019
So if you wanna research that, that

1635
00:53:23.020 --> 00:53:24.199
would be something to look at.

1636
00:53:24.200 --> 00:53:25.959
It's a different way of teaching art

1637
00:53:25.960 --> 00:53:26.960
and thinking about art.

1638
00:53:28.680 --> 00:53:30.619
Phil, I wanted you to expand a

1639
00:53:30.620 --> 00:53:32.019
little bit more, because your

1640
00:53:32.020 --> 00:53:34.119
practice is so much of focusing

1641
00:53:34.120 --> 00:53:36.119
or emphasizing on the physical

1642
00:53:36.120 --> 00:53:37.979
conditions and the

1643
00:53:37.980 --> 00:53:40.379
material, the physical properties

1644
00:53:40.380 --> 00:53:41.959
of photography.

1645
00:53:41.960 --> 00:53:44.199
And then in your studio,

1646
00:53:44.200 --> 00:53:46.039
you unpacked a lot about how

1647
00:53:46.040 --> 00:53:48.279
that carries political,

1648
00:53:48.280 --> 00:53:49.439
social meanings.

1649
00:53:49.440 --> 00:53:51.269
And can you unpack a little more?

1650
00:53:51.270 --> 00:53:52.809
Absolutely, yes. Audience?

1651
00:53:52.810 --> 00:53:54.469
So I think one way to think about it

1652
00:53:54.470 --> 00:53:56.189
is using these expired obsolete

1653
00:53:56.190 --> 00:53:58.609
materials as a way to conceptualize,

1654
00:53:58.610 --> 00:54:00.529
operationalize, if not put

1655
00:54:00.530 --> 00:54:02.939
on the forefront issues of scarcity

1656
00:54:02.940 --> 00:54:05.429
or issues of obsolescence.

1657
00:54:05.430 --> 00:54:06.909
So because a paper has no commercial

1658
00:54:06.910 --> 00:54:08.609
value, I'm trying to figure out how

1659
00:54:08.610 --> 00:54:10.189
can it be circulating in another

1660
00:54:10.190 --> 00:54:11.229
type of marketplace, and that would

1661
00:54:11.230 --> 00:54:12.169
be art.

1662
00:54:12.170 --> 00:54:13.529
I'm interested in art, especially

1663
00:54:13.530 --> 00:54:14.449
contemporary art, because it's an

1664
00:54:14.450 --> 00:54:15.649
unregulated marketplace.

1665
00:54:15.650 --> 00:54:17.349
That's fascinating to me.

1666
00:54:17.350 --> 00:54:19.129
Very few, I think, industries are

1667
00:54:19.130 --> 00:54:21.499
unregulate, but this one is.

1668
00:54:21.500 --> 00:54:23.479
But then this one provides,

1669
00:54:23.480 --> 00:54:25.319
I think, spaces

1670
00:54:25.320 --> 00:54:27.039
for either conceptualizing something

1671
00:54:27.040 --> 00:54:28.939
or anything can really

1672
00:54:28.940 --> 00:54:30.319
go. As long as you kind of verbally

1673
00:54:30.320 --> 00:54:32.019
and then maybe discursively frame it

1674
00:54:32.020 --> 00:54:33.919
as art, then it could be art.

1675
00:54:33.920 --> 00:54:35.719
So I'm lucky to have the kind of

1676
00:54:35.720 --> 00:54:38.139
shield or the prestige or the

1677
00:54:38.140 --> 00:54:39.599
flexibility that art provides

1678
00:54:39.600 --> 00:54:40.719
because I'm really using these

1679
00:54:40.720 --> 00:54:41.999
materials that have no purpose

1680
00:54:42.000 --> 00:54:42.939
anymore.

1681
00:54:42.940 --> 00:54:44.439
They can't even register a proper

1682
00:54:44.440 --> 00:54:46.199
exposure, right?

1683
00:54:46.200 --> 00:54:48.179
And so that's been a really

1684
00:54:48.180 --> 00:54:50.739
great instructive lesson for me.

1685
00:54:50.740 --> 00:54:52.679
How that's political, it

1686
00:54:52.680 --> 00:54:54.599
doesn't have to be.

1687
00:54:54.600 --> 00:54:56.259
But for me, it could be political

1688
00:54:56.260 --> 00:54:57.459
only because I think an art object

1689
00:54:57.460 --> 00:54:58.839
can be many things.

1690
00:54:58.840 --> 00:54:59.779
And that's why I made the

1691
00:54:59.780 --> 00:55:01.019
distinction that photography as a

1692
00:55:01.020 --> 00:55:02.179
medium doesn't have to art, there's

1693
00:55:02.180 --> 00:55:03.319
nothing wrong with that.

1694
00:55:03.320 --> 00:55:04.599
The medium of photography will be

1695
00:55:04.600 --> 00:55:06.899
fine if it's not politicized

1696
00:55:06.900 --> 00:55:08.759
or if it not made esthetic and that

1697
00:55:08.760 --> 00:55:10.359
is made as an art objects.

1698
00:55:10.360 --> 00:55:12.219
But it's important that I try to

1699
00:55:12.220 --> 00:55:13.619
circulate my works in contemporary

1700
00:55:13.620 --> 00:55:15.539
art because I've never found

1701
00:55:15.540 --> 00:55:17.039
anything else in my life that can do

1702
00:55:17.040 --> 00:55:18.079
what an artwork does.

1703
00:55:18.080 --> 00:55:19.539
An artwork can be an artifact that

1704
00:55:19.540 --> 00:55:20.809
travels through time.

1705
00:55:20.810 --> 00:55:21.929
I think artwork can be something

1706
00:55:21.930 --> 00:55:23.569
that is philosophically or

1707
00:55:23.570 --> 00:55:25.289
intellectually discussed, kind of

1708
00:55:25.290 --> 00:55:26.289
like what we're doing here, I would

1709
00:55:26.290 --> 00:55:29.009
hope. It could be a commodity,

1710
00:55:29.010 --> 00:55:31.029
it could be financial asset,

1711
00:55:31.030 --> 00:55:32.329
and then it could a speculative

1712
00:55:32.330 --> 00:55:33.809
asset too.

1713
00:55:33.810 --> 00:55:35.689
And so that's fascinating, that

1714
00:55:35.690 --> 00:55:37.589
multiplicity of conditions, that

1715
00:55:37.590 --> 00:55:39.509
could be political operation.

1716
00:55:39.510 --> 00:55:41.409
I don't find that within the

1717
00:55:41.410 --> 00:55:43.109
non-art application of photography.

1718
00:55:43.110 --> 00:55:44.669
I think the non art application of

1719
00:55:44.670 --> 00:55:45.829
photography has an instrumental

1720
00:55:45.830 --> 00:55:47.469
destination already, and that's

1721
00:55:47.470 --> 00:55:49.629
great, it should hopefully, right?

1722
00:55:49.630 --> 00:55:51.529
I'm trying to maybe sidestep that

1723
00:55:51.530 --> 00:55:53.169
instrumentality to art.

1724
00:55:53.170 --> 00:55:54.309
Yeah, so for me there's something

1725
00:55:54.310 --> 00:55:56.399
politicized there for me.

1726
00:55:56.400 --> 00:55:58.439
And also, do you guys feel like

1727
00:55:58.440 --> 00:56:00.459
within the field of contemporary

1728
00:56:00.460 --> 00:56:02.479
art and

1729
00:56:02.480 --> 00:56:05.079
the understanding towards

1730
00:56:05.080 --> 00:56:07.339
photography has shifted?

1731
00:56:07.340 --> 00:56:09.239
Because you mentioned,

1732
00:56:09.240 --> 00:56:11.119
you were really surprised that

1733
00:56:11.120 --> 00:56:12.979
you got the Guggenheim

1734
00:56:12.980 --> 00:56:14.939
Fellowship, and you

1735
00:56:14.940 --> 00:56:16.899
did mention you felt there's

1736
00:56:16.900 --> 00:56:19.819
a shift in institutions.

1737
00:56:19.820 --> 00:56:21.409
Can you talk a little bit more?

1738
00:56:21.410 --> 00:56:22.449
Yes, sorry, thank you for reminding

1739
00:56:22.450 --> 00:56:23.969
me. I didn't get to explain that too

1740
00:56:23.970 --> 00:56:25.249
or respond to the, I received a

1741
00:56:25.250 --> 00:56:27.649
Guggenheim Fellowship Award in 2025.

1742
00:56:27.650 --> 00:56:29.009
I never thought I would get one.

1743
00:56:29.010 --> 00:56:30.629
I was taking a workshop with a

1744
00:56:30.630 --> 00:56:32.549
really helpful consultant

1745
00:56:32.550 --> 00:56:34.469
named Beth Pickens,

1746
00:56:34.470 --> 00:56:35.689
also maybe an educator.

1747
00:56:35.690 --> 00:56:37.189
This was on Zoom and she had a

1748
00:56:37.190 --> 00:56:39.029
really great saying, saying,

1749
00:56:39.030 --> 00:56:39.929
keep on applying.

1750
00:56:39.930 --> 00:56:40.849
These are applicants.

1751
00:56:40.850 --> 00:56:41.709
Keep on applying to you.

1752
00:56:41.710 --> 00:56:43.209
Either get it or you die.

1753
00:56:43.210 --> 00:56:45.189
And as much, and Beth,

1754
00:56:45.190 --> 00:56:46.330
if you're out there and you're

1755
00:56:46.331 --> 00:56:47.769
watching this on the Hammer Channel,

1756
00:56:47.770 --> 00:56:49.269
that's a great mantra.

1757
00:56:49.270 --> 00:56:50.849
I told that to myself every day,

1758
00:56:50.850 --> 00:56:51.850
basically.

1759
00:56:52.680 --> 00:56:54.019
The question was in terms of the

1760
00:56:54.020 --> 00:56:55.020
Guggenheim.

1761
00:57:00.259 --> 00:57:01.839
I'm sorry, does anyone remember the

1762
00:57:01.840 --> 00:57:02.249
question?

1763
00:57:02.250 --> 00:57:04.089
Oh, the question was, you

1764
00:57:04.090 --> 00:57:06.029
use this body of work

1765
00:57:06.030 --> 00:57:08.089
to apply and you got in

1766
00:57:08.090 --> 00:57:10.289
and you were

1767
00:57:10.290 --> 00:57:12.589
remarking that you

1768
00:57:12.590 --> 00:57:14.729
felt there's an institutional shift

1769
00:57:14.730 --> 00:57:16.769
and it was how they

1770
00:57:16.770 --> 00:57:17.770
interpret.

1771
00:57:18.600 --> 00:57:20.219
I think the institutional shift, so

1772
00:57:20.220 --> 00:57:21.519
I was awarded the Guggenheim

1773
00:57:21.520 --> 00:57:22.899
Fellowship Awards in many different

1774
00:57:22.900 --> 00:57:23.920
disciplines. They have an art, in

1775
00:57:23.921 --> 00:57:25.639
terms of visual media, it's art and

1776
00:57:25.640 --> 00:57:27.459
photography. So I was award in

1777
00:57:27.460 --> 00:57:29.279
photography, and historically my

1778
00:57:29.280 --> 00:57:31.079
understanding of the awardees have

1779
00:57:31.080 --> 00:57:33.139
typically been within social

1780
00:57:33.140 --> 00:57:34.779
documentary or a lens-based

1781
00:57:34.780 --> 00:57:36.679
practice, and I do have a lens

1782
00:57:36.680 --> 00:57:37.759
based practice. It's just my

1783
00:57:37.760 --> 00:57:39.639
photographs are durational and

1784
00:57:39.640 --> 00:57:40.439
unstable.

1785
00:57:40.440 --> 00:57:41.419
They last five hours.

1786
00:57:41.420 --> 00:57:42.979
So I really astounded that this

1787
00:57:42.980 --> 00:57:44.459
fellowship awarded based on that,

1788
00:57:44.460 --> 00:57:45.819
and just made me realize, Daniel,

1789
00:57:45.820 --> 00:57:47.949
that maybe they are being more

1790
00:57:47.950 --> 00:57:49.589
accommodating to other uses of the

1791
00:57:49.590 --> 00:57:50.590
medium.

1792
00:57:50.910 --> 00:57:52.729
I want to add to that, because I

1793
00:57:52.730 --> 00:57:54.969
got a Guggenheim in 2018,

1794
00:57:56.130 --> 00:57:57.989
but not in photography.

1795
00:57:57.990 --> 00:57:59.669
I got it in art.

1796
00:57:59.670 --> 00:58:01.269
I think I was such a contrarian, I

1797
00:58:01.270 --> 00:58:02.749
broke so many rules about

1798
00:58:02.750 --> 00:58:04.869
photography, that the photography

1799
00:58:04.870 --> 00:58:06.389
panel didn't even sit down.

1800
00:58:06.390 --> 00:58:07.549
This isn't photography, this is

1801
00:58:07.550 --> 00:58:08.449
sculpture.

1802
00:58:08.450 --> 00:58:11.409
And actually, I call it low-relief

1803
00:58:11.410 --> 00:58:13.289
photo sculpture, because I'm really

1804
00:58:13.290 --> 00:58:15.169
a collageist, and photography is a

1805
00:58:15.170 --> 00:58:18.049
material. And what I'm doing also,

1806
00:58:18.050 --> 00:58:19.329
in response to your last questions

1807
00:58:19.330 --> 00:58:20.339
about the archive.

1808
00:58:20.340 --> 00:58:23.439
The archive is my autobiography.

1809
00:58:23.440 --> 00:58:25.099
And so basically, that photograph,

1810
00:58:25.100 --> 00:58:27.279
because I was present doing this,

1811
00:58:27.280 --> 00:58:29.239
and so it's a record of my

1812
00:58:29.240 --> 00:58:30.939
life. And so it is the various

1813
00:58:30.940 --> 00:58:32.359
aspects of my live.

1814
00:58:32.360 --> 00:58:34.379
And it could be something that I did

1815
00:58:34.380 --> 00:58:36.659
30 years ago with something that did

1816
00:58:36.660 --> 00:58:38.619
two months ago, and they're

1817
00:58:38.620 --> 00:58:40.199
put in dialog.

1818
00:58:40.200 --> 00:58:42.259
And so the time, the way that these

1819
00:58:42.260 --> 00:58:44.239
timelines cross

1820
00:58:44.240 --> 00:58:45.460
are very interesting.

1821
00:58:50.530 --> 00:58:52.389
I mean, I think that

1822
00:58:52.390 --> 00:58:54.229
we try to categorize

1823
00:58:54.230 --> 00:58:56.129
things in ways, you know, where

1824
00:58:56.130 --> 00:58:57.729
it's like, this is this and that's

1825
00:58:57.730 --> 00:58:59.769
that, and hopefully we're,

1826
00:58:59.770 --> 00:59:01.749
like you said, we're moving into

1827
00:59:01.750 --> 00:59:03.789
more plurality unless this

1828
00:59:03.790 --> 00:59:05.050
is and this is that.

1829
00:59:06.070 --> 00:59:07.329
I mean the photograph I think has

1830
00:59:07.330 --> 00:59:08.569
always been in this conversation

1831
00:59:08.570 --> 00:59:10.609
around viability and

1832
00:59:10.610 --> 00:59:13.389
relationship to other art practices,

1833
00:59:13.390 --> 00:59:14.630
and you know I remember.

1834
00:59:15.800 --> 00:59:17.619
You know, feeling a little insecure

1835
00:59:17.620 --> 00:59:19.819
about having like just photographs,

1836
00:59:19.820 --> 00:59:20.979
or I see that coming out from

1837
00:59:20.980 --> 00:59:22.719
students of like, well, if it's just

1838
00:59:22.720 --> 00:59:24.179
photographs.

1839
00:59:24.180 --> 00:59:25.939
But I think there's a lot of

1840
00:59:25.940 --> 00:59:28.019
practices that absolutely

1841
00:59:28.020 --> 00:59:30.099
show that that's,

1842
00:59:30.100 --> 00:59:32.139
it's not just photographs you know.

1843
00:59:32.140 --> 00:59:33.819
There's the way that which the image

1844
00:59:33.820 --> 00:59:37.399
can be used that traverses

1845
00:59:37.400 --> 00:59:40.379
so much more than this

1846
00:59:40.380 --> 00:59:42.479
kind of application that's maybe

1847
00:59:42.480 --> 00:59:44.299
what you're talking about

1848
00:59:44.300 --> 00:59:45.969
where it's not.

1849
00:59:45.970 --> 00:59:47.989
Critical or not political or not

1850
00:59:47.990 --> 00:59:48.990
having a message.

1851
00:59:51.710 --> 00:59:53.649
So I like to

1852
00:59:53.650 --> 00:59:55.389
think that things are more expansive

1853
00:59:55.390 --> 00:59:57.249
and more open about what we

1854
00:59:57.250 --> 01:00:00.298
consider practice.

1855
01:00:00.299 --> 01:00:01.739
Categories but when you think about

1856
01:00:01.740 --> 01:00:03.079
these big granting kind of

1857
01:00:03.080 --> 01:00:04.179
organizations and you have to click

1858
01:00:04.180 --> 01:00:06.298
a box like I

1859
01:00:06.299 --> 01:00:08.079
often am like multidisciplinary

1860
01:00:08.080 --> 01:00:09.219
because I don't know what else to

1861
01:00:09.220 --> 01:00:11.139
say at this point you know

1862
01:00:11.140 --> 01:00:12.979
and I think part of the

1863
01:00:12.980 --> 01:00:15.099
fun of making art and the

1864
01:00:15.100 --> 01:00:17.059
challenge of it is trying things

1865
01:00:17.060 --> 01:00:18.519
that you've never done before and

1866
01:00:18.520 --> 01:00:20.359
whether that's approaching the

1867
01:00:20.360 --> 01:00:21.659
medium in a way where it disappears

1868
01:00:21.660 --> 01:00:23.278
and it's not supposed to or making

1869
01:00:23.279 --> 01:00:24.818
it dimensional in a way that it's

1870
01:00:24.819 --> 01:00:26.829
supposed to be flat Like, to me,

1871
01:00:26.830 --> 01:00:28.789
that's exciting space, and so I

1872
01:00:28.790 --> 01:00:31.209
try to kind of push into different

1873
01:00:31.210 --> 01:00:32.309
areas.

1874
01:00:32.310 --> 01:00:33.889
Yeah, maybe I'm a contrarian too.

1875
01:00:33.890 --> 01:00:34.419
Ha ha ha!

1876
01:00:34.420 --> 01:00:36.338
But I gotta say, I was being

1877
01:00:36.339 --> 01:00:37.699
brought up as a person of color.

1878
01:00:37.700 --> 01:00:38.999
My parents always told me, if you

1879
01:00:39.000 --> 01:00:39.838
followed the rules, you're never

1880
01:00:39.839 --> 01:00:40.989
gonna make it.

1881
01:00:40.990 --> 01:00:42.329
I wish my parents had told me that.

1882
01:00:43.490 --> 01:00:44.869
No, because they said they will pick

1883
01:00:44.870 --> 01:00:46.048
someone white.

1884
01:00:46.049 --> 01:00:48.189
They won't pick you.

1885
01:00:48.190 --> 01:00:50.088
Whatever culture, the dominating

1886
01:00:50.089 --> 01:00:52.068
culture will pick the

1887
01:00:52.069 --> 01:00:53.909
group that is in that

1888
01:00:53.910 --> 01:00:56.929
dominating space.

1889
01:00:56.930 --> 01:00:58.769
So they said, you must offer

1890
01:00:58.770 --> 01:01:01.229
something that only you can offer.

1891
01:01:01.230 --> 01:01:03.068
And that's yet another thing that I

1892
01:01:03.069 --> 01:01:05.149
would say in Long Beach.

1893
01:01:05.150 --> 01:01:07.008
And I gave this little,

1894
01:01:07.009 --> 01:01:08.449
I would go to students, they go, see

1895
01:01:08.450 --> 01:01:09.349
what you're wearing, see what your

1896
01:01:09.350 --> 01:01:10.889
wearing? OK, go look at the last

1897
01:01:10.890 --> 01:01:12.338
five music videos.

1898
01:01:12.339 --> 01:01:14.079
Because I'm curious to see how much

1899
01:01:14.080 --> 01:01:15.919
your quote unquote individual taste

1900
01:01:15.920 --> 01:01:18.159
actually came from watching these

1901
01:01:18.160 --> 01:01:20.199
people perform and letting

1902
01:01:20.200 --> 01:01:21.338
them know that a lot of your

1903
01:01:21.339 --> 01:01:23.159
decisions are made by other

1904
01:01:23.160 --> 01:01:24.818
people through the consumption of

1905
01:01:24.819 --> 01:01:26.778
media without your knowledge.

1906
01:01:26.779 --> 01:01:28.798
And so how do you first break that

1907
01:01:28.799 --> 01:01:31.179
down and then become

1908
01:01:31.180 --> 01:01:32.879
actually responsible and make your

1909
01:01:32.880 --> 01:01:34.758
own choices of the construction of

1910
01:01:34.759 --> 01:01:36.798
self as opposed to absorbing

1911
01:01:36.799 --> 01:01:38.778
what popular culture is

1912
01:01:38.779 --> 01:01:40.659
saying is what

1913
01:01:40.660 --> 01:01:42.298
yourself is or what.

1914
01:01:42.299 --> 01:01:43.599
How you package yourself, present

1915
01:01:43.600 --> 01:01:45.139
yourself, and so forth.

1916
01:01:45.140 --> 01:01:46.859
And I said, and that's what art is.

1917
01:01:46.860 --> 01:01:48.499
If you just make art that you're

1918
01:01:48.500 --> 01:01:49.798
making because it's happening, and

1919
01:01:49.799 --> 01:01:52.499
and so on, without criticality,

1920
01:01:52.500 --> 01:01:54.059
you are not going to get to

1921
01:01:54.060 --> 01:01:56.318
something that is

1922
01:01:56.319 --> 01:01:58.139
a perspective that

1923
01:01:58.140 --> 01:01:59.179
is singular.

1924
01:01:59.180 --> 01:02:00.919
You are going to reproduce culture

1925
01:02:00.920 --> 01:02:02.439
that already exists.

1926
01:02:02.440 --> 01:02:03.989
AI. So.

1927
01:02:03.990 --> 01:02:05.639
Ha ha ha ha.

1928
01:02:05.640 --> 01:02:07.619
So that just sort of, I think

1929
01:02:07.620 --> 01:02:08.679
like that, I'll come up with other

1930
01:02:08.680 --> 01:02:09.798
quips later on that have nothing to

1931
01:02:09.799 --> 01:02:10.799
do with the question.

1932
01:02:12.500 --> 01:02:14.519
Well, I'm not going to do

1933
01:02:14.520 --> 01:02:16.318
any more questions, and I'm going

1934
01:02:16.319 --> 01:02:17.319
to...

1935
01:02:17.819 --> 01:02:18.798
I'm gonna cut off.

1936
01:02:18.799 --> 01:02:20.519
Wrap it up.

1937
01:02:20.520 --> 01:02:22.379
But I would love to

1938
01:02:22.380 --> 01:02:24.939
end with Paul Gilroy.

1939
01:02:24.940 --> 01:02:27.039
He says, what was initially

1940
01:02:27.040 --> 01:02:29.039
felt to be the curse of

1941
01:02:29.040 --> 01:02:31.318
homelessness or enforced

1942
01:02:31.319 --> 01:02:34.079
exile is reconstructed

1943
01:02:34.080 --> 01:02:36.358
as the basis of a privileged

1944
01:02:36.359 --> 01:02:38.599
standpoint from which

1945
01:02:38.600 --> 01:02:40.439
critical insights about

1946
01:02:40.440 --> 01:02:42.559
the modern world become more

1947
01:02:42.560 --> 01:02:43.560
likely.

1948
01:02:44.560 --> 01:02:46.858
And I think your practices

1949
01:02:46.859 --> 01:02:49.499
embodied this transformation,

1950
01:02:49.500 --> 01:02:51.959
turning dislocation into knowledge

1951
01:02:51.960 --> 01:02:53.839
and diaspora into

1952
01:02:53.840 --> 01:02:55.719
a lens for seeing the

1953
01:02:55.720 --> 01:02:57.559
structures that shape our

1954
01:02:57.560 --> 01:02:58.899
visual culture.

1955
01:02:58.900 --> 01:03:01.139
Thank you so much for this generous

1956
01:03:01.140 --> 01:03:02.318
conversation.

1957
01:03:02.319 --> 01:03:03.440
And we have.

1958
01:03:05.730 --> 01:03:08.169
We have a few minutes

1959
01:03:08.170 --> 01:03:09.989
to take some questions,

1960
01:03:09.990 --> 01:03:11.949
but please make your questions

1961
01:03:11.950 --> 01:03:14.169
or comments

1962
01:03:14.170 --> 01:03:16.269
concise and clear.

1963
01:03:17.549 --> 01:03:19.190
No speeches, please.

1964
01:03:25.370 --> 01:03:26.309
No, someone's behind it.

1965
01:03:26.310 --> 01:03:27.310
Someone's behind you.

1966
01:03:29.180 --> 01:03:30.159
Thank you all.

1967
01:03:30.160 --> 01:03:31.999
My name's Adam, and I know some on

1968
01:03:32.000 --> 01:03:32.939
the panel.

1969
01:03:32.940 --> 01:03:34.139
Question for Phil.

1970
01:03:34.140 --> 01:03:36.059
When you say that these

1971
01:03:36.060 --> 01:03:37.459
photographs only last five hours,

1972
01:03:37.460 --> 01:03:39.179
can you explain that a little bit?

1973
01:03:39.180 --> 01:03:40.068
I don't understand.

1974
01:03:40.069 --> 01:03:40.989
Yeah, thanks, Adam.

1975
01:03:40.990 --> 01:03:42.048
I didn't have really the time to

1976
01:03:42.049 --> 01:03:43.669
explain it very quickly.

1977
01:03:43.670 --> 01:03:45.689
I just don't, I don't subject these

1978
01:03:45.690 --> 01:03:47.869
photographic prints to the

1979
01:03:47.870 --> 01:03:49.749
procedural process of fixing them.

1980
01:03:49.750 --> 01:03:51.089
So that would be, in the darkroom,

1981
01:03:51.090 --> 01:03:52.528
the developer stop and fix

1982
01:03:52.529 --> 01:03:53.508
chemistry.

1983
01:03:53.509 --> 01:03:55.608
So that's why, Adam, and then to

1984
01:03:55.609 --> 01:03:57.608
add a technical side note is there's

1985
01:03:57.609 --> 01:03:59.508
a built-in emulsion in the developer

1986
01:03:59.509 --> 01:04:01.389
of this paper that allows it to

1987
01:04:01.390 --> 01:04:03.389
expose, and less and less people

1988
01:04:03.390 --> 01:04:04.548
know this process now, it's only

1989
01:04:04.549 --> 01:04:05.629
because digital has kind of

1990
01:04:05.630 --> 01:04:07.369
surpassed analog materials, but...

1991
01:04:07.370 --> 01:04:08.909
This is really rooted in a kind of

1992
01:04:08.910 --> 01:04:10.008
light sensitivity.

1993
01:04:10.009 --> 01:04:11.309
But precisely, Adam, because the

1994
01:04:11.310 --> 01:04:13.829
paper is desensitized and expired,

1995
01:04:13.830 --> 01:04:15.389
I can do this process that lasts

1996
01:04:15.390 --> 01:04:16.390
about five hours.

1997
01:04:21.750 --> 01:04:23.729
So Adam, what he meant is

1998
01:04:23.730 --> 01:04:25.669
like this image after

1999
01:04:25.670 --> 01:04:27.629
five hours, it become

2000
01:04:27.630 --> 01:04:28.630
just.

2001
01:04:31.569 --> 01:04:34.029
I have a question about censorship,

2002
01:04:35.490 --> 01:04:37.349
not only in the

2003
01:04:37.350 --> 01:04:38.429
different schools that you

2004
01:04:38.430 --> 01:04:39.430
mentioned.

2005
01:04:42.640 --> 01:04:45.379
And around the subject of

2006
01:04:45.380 --> 01:04:47.339
diaspora and colonization,

2007
01:04:47.340 --> 01:04:50.439
but also the responsibility of

2008
01:04:50.440 --> 01:04:52.540
an artist, a teacher,

2009
01:04:53.620 --> 01:04:54.620
institution,

2010
01:04:55.920 --> 01:04:58.278
because we all know there's so much

2011
01:04:58.279 --> 01:05:00.318
happening right

2012
01:05:00.319 --> 01:05:01.540
now, especially.

2013
01:05:02.759 --> 01:05:03.759
So,

2014
01:05:05.100 --> 01:05:06.999
especially as artists, you know, at

2015
01:05:07.000 --> 01:05:09.139
a certain level, you're given,

2016
01:05:09.140 --> 01:05:11.019
obviously, a

2017
01:05:11.020 --> 01:05:12.020
bit more freedom.

2018
01:05:13.230 --> 01:05:15.789
But still not.

2019
01:05:15.790 --> 01:05:18.028
So just how

2020
01:05:18.029 --> 01:05:19.869
do you speak to your students and

2021
01:05:19.870 --> 01:05:21.829
also

2022
01:05:21.830 --> 01:05:24.089
besides

2023
01:05:24.090 --> 01:05:27.389
showing your work and also

2024
01:05:27.390 --> 01:05:29.528
your

2025
01:05:29.529 --> 01:05:31.729
path to where you're at

2026
01:05:31.730 --> 01:05:33.289
in your practice.

2027
01:05:33.290 --> 01:05:34.669
So again, that question of

2028
01:05:34.670 --> 01:05:35.670
censorship.

2029
01:05:40.299 --> 01:05:42.339
I'm sorry, is the question, do we

2030
01:05:42.340 --> 01:05:43.919
feel as if we have to not censor

2031
01:05:43.920 --> 01:05:45.599
ourselves, or do we feel we should,

2032
01:05:45.600 --> 01:05:46.739
or is it?

2033
01:05:47.900 --> 01:05:48.900
No, okay.

2034
01:05:49.620 --> 01:05:51.579
It's more about,

2035
01:05:51.580 --> 01:05:54.199
I mean,

2036
01:05:54.200 --> 01:05:56.858
when you see universities

2037
01:05:56.859 --> 01:05:59.199
and museums censoring

2038
01:05:59.200 --> 01:06:00.900
language and images.

2039
01:06:02.680 --> 01:06:05.679
I'll just say, when

2040
01:06:05.680 --> 01:06:07.639
I came in to teach, I'd never

2041
01:06:07.640 --> 01:06:08.839
taught before, it was very

2042
01:06:08.840 --> 01:06:09.840
intimidating.

2043
01:06:10.560 --> 01:06:12.419
And coming up in my education, I

2044
01:06:12.420 --> 01:06:13.739
thought there was like a canon,

2045
01:06:13.740 --> 01:06:15.059
right? And I was teaching a

2046
01:06:15.060 --> 01:06:16.358
foundation class, like foundation

2047
01:06:16.359 --> 01:06:17.798
level first year class.

2048
01:06:17.799 --> 01:06:19.179
And I thought someone was gonna tap

2049
01:06:19.180 --> 01:06:21.059
me on the shoulder and hand me

2050
01:06:21.060 --> 01:06:22.818
a list of the artists that are the

2051
01:06:22.819 --> 01:06:24.818
canon that need to be shown.

2052
01:06:24.819 --> 01:06:26.858
And that wasn't the case at all.

2053
01:06:26.859 --> 01:06:28.679
I had complete freedom

2054
01:06:28.680 --> 01:06:30.759
to put into my syllabus.

2055
01:06:31.819 --> 01:06:33.739
What I wanted to show my students.

2056
01:06:33.740 --> 01:06:35.499
The writers, I prioritize writers of

2057
01:06:35.500 --> 01:06:37.858
color, women, native artists,

2058
01:06:37.859 --> 01:06:39.879
native writers, because

2059
01:06:39.880 --> 01:06:41.959
I feel like I

2060
01:06:41.960 --> 01:06:43.839
occupy a role where

2061
01:06:43.840 --> 01:06:45.559
not a lot of students, I didn't

2062
01:06:45.560 --> 01:06:47.419
have, actually I studied with Joy

2063
01:06:47.420 --> 01:06:49.099
Harjo at UCLA.

2064
01:06:49.100 --> 01:06:50.739
There were some native folks, but it

2065
01:06:50.740 --> 01:06:52.219
wasn't until the upper levels of my

2066
01:06:52.220 --> 01:06:54.139
education that I interacted with

2067
01:06:54.140 --> 01:06:56.839
an indigenous educator.

2068
01:06:56.840 --> 01:06:58.028
And so I.

2069
01:06:58.029 --> 01:06:59.989
Take on a role of like,

2070
01:06:59.990 --> 01:07:01.689
I'm gonna, that's my expertise, so

2071
01:07:01.690 --> 01:07:02.929
that's what I share.

2072
01:07:02.930 --> 01:07:04.869
And I do feel grateful that I'm in

2073
01:07:04.870 --> 01:07:06.749
a place where I have, it's

2074
01:07:06.750 --> 01:07:07.789
probably why I've stayed there.

2075
01:07:07.790 --> 01:07:09.689
I started as like a visitor, and now

2076
01:07:09.690 --> 01:07:11.209
I'm there more permanently.

2077
01:07:11.210 --> 01:07:12.129
But that's probably what I've saved

2078
01:07:12.130 --> 01:07:13.449
because I can teach from my

2079
01:07:13.450 --> 01:07:15.349
practice, I can from my expertise.

2080
01:07:15.350 --> 01:07:17.929
And that's actually asked

2081
01:07:17.930 --> 01:07:19.949
for instead of like well no, you

2082
01:07:19.950 --> 01:07:21.909
actually have to do this other thing

2083
01:07:21.910 --> 01:07:24.108
because that's the expectation

2084
01:07:24.109 --> 01:07:26.068
of what an art education

2085
01:07:26.069 --> 01:07:27.689
is. So I don't know if that's

2086
01:07:27.690 --> 01:07:28.690
exactly.

2087
01:07:33.319 --> 01:07:35.358
I haven't been censored by

2088
01:07:35.359 --> 01:07:37.419
the institutions that I teach

2089
01:07:37.420 --> 01:07:39.019
for. The closest thing is not

2090
01:07:39.020 --> 01:07:40.639
censorship, it's more about

2091
01:07:40.640 --> 01:07:42.539
suggesting, maybe not that

2092
01:07:42.540 --> 01:07:44.298
text, maybe this one.

2093
01:07:44.299 --> 01:07:45.339
And that's not because of

2094
01:07:45.340 --> 01:07:46.219
censorship, it's because of our

2095
01:07:46.220 --> 01:07:47.399
accessibility and legibility.

2096
01:07:47.400 --> 01:07:49.379
So maybe not the French theory,

2097
01:07:49.380 --> 01:07:50.919
but maybe something that's gonna

2098
01:07:50.920 --> 01:07:52.818
still describe that, those very

2099
01:07:52.819 --> 01:07:54.899
same concepts in a different way.

2100
01:07:54.900 --> 01:07:56.278
So that's been my experience in the

2101
01:07:56.279 --> 01:07:57.279
educational context.

2102
01:08:01.109 --> 01:08:02.669
Hi, thank you guys so much for a

2103
01:08:02.670 --> 01:08:03.670
great panel.

2104
01:08:04.290 --> 01:08:06.129
A lot of the history of photography

2105
01:08:06.130 --> 01:08:07.548
has been really obsessed with

2106
01:08:07.549 --> 01:08:08.829
portraiture. And I think, as Phil

2107
01:08:08.830 --> 01:08:09.608
mentioned, with social

2108
01:08:09.609 --> 01:08:11.189
documentation, that's how we think

2109
01:08:11.190 --> 01:08:13.108
about a lot of photography even

2110
01:08:13.109 --> 01:08:14.449
today in art.

2111
01:08:14.450 --> 01:08:15.769
And what was really striking about

2112
01:08:15.770 --> 01:08:17.289
all three of your works that you

2113
01:08:17.290 --> 01:08:19.608
shared today was maybe

2114
01:08:19.609 --> 01:08:21.429
less of a figurative

2115
01:08:21.430 --> 01:08:23.688
presence. That wouldn't be accepted.

2116
01:08:23.689 --> 01:08:25.889
But even with the figure facing

2117
01:08:25.890 --> 01:08:28.339
back or the face covered.

2118
01:08:28.340 --> 01:08:30.199
And so I was curious whether that

2119
01:08:30.200 --> 01:08:31.898
was a conscious choice on your guys'

2120
01:08:31.899 --> 01:08:33.499
part in response to the history of

2121
01:08:33.500 --> 01:08:34.619
photography and where it's going.

2122
01:08:37.019 --> 01:08:38.759
I just wanted to topple the apple

2123
01:08:38.760 --> 01:08:41.079
cart, and

2124
01:08:41.080 --> 01:08:42.759
that was really important.

2125
01:08:42.760 --> 01:08:44.599
I mean, that's that very, if you

2126
01:08:44.600 --> 01:08:46.039
go two more.

2127
01:08:48.930 --> 01:08:51.289
Yeah, because this, I wanted to

2128
01:08:51.290 --> 01:08:54.169
put a landscape in

2129
01:08:54.170 --> 01:08:56.108
dialog with an abstract piece

2130
01:08:56.109 --> 01:08:57.148
of architecture.

2131
01:08:57.149 --> 01:08:58.608
What happens when you, I want it to

2132
01:08:58.609 --> 01:08:59.669
mash it up.

2133
01:08:59.670 --> 01:09:02.188
And so what happens when do that?

2134
01:09:02.189 --> 01:09:04.209
But I wanted tell a story

2135
01:09:04.210 --> 01:09:06.209
that is,

2136
01:09:06.210 --> 01:09:07.768
you really have to pause.

2137
01:09:07.769 --> 01:09:09.888
I mean, I'm using color, chroma,

2138
01:09:09.889 --> 01:09:11.989
to keep it all flowing, but

2139
01:09:11.990 --> 01:09:13.829
rationally it doesn't make sense.

2140
01:09:13.830 --> 01:09:14.830
But visually,

2141
01:09:16.029 --> 01:09:17.969
there's harmony, there

2142
01:09:17.970 --> 01:09:19.978
is a harmony. And you can see how

2143
01:09:19.979 --> 01:09:22.199
you go, this boat person,

2144
01:09:22.200 --> 01:09:24.438
who's wearing British

2145
01:09:24.439 --> 01:09:26.438
khaki and British whites,

2146
01:09:26.439 --> 01:09:28.299
you know, who colonized Ghana,

2147
01:09:28.300 --> 01:09:30.219
and in here, that's what always got

2148
01:09:30.220 --> 01:09:31.478
me, wow, how can you wear the

2149
01:09:31.479 --> 01:09:32.479
clothes of the colonizer?

2150
01:09:33.500 --> 01:09:35.459
But in any event, how

2151
01:09:35.460 --> 01:09:37.419
I can use that to go

2152
01:09:37.420 --> 01:09:40.018
into this abstract wall,

2153
01:09:40.019 --> 01:09:42.119
you know? So I'm just trying

2154
01:09:42.120 --> 01:09:44.119
to...

2155
01:09:44.120 --> 01:09:45.699
I'm very suspect of rational

2156
01:09:45.700 --> 01:09:47.728
thinking. And I'm really trying

2157
01:09:47.729 --> 01:09:49.669
to embrace what I call neck down

2158
01:09:49.670 --> 01:09:51.009
thinking. My whole education has

2159
01:09:51.010 --> 01:09:52.869
been neck up, I'm trying to go neck

2160
01:09:52.870 --> 01:09:53.870
down.

2161
01:09:54.540 --> 01:09:56.259
Yeah, I mean I think early on I did

2162
01:09:56.260 --> 01:09:58.599
a lot of work with objects

2163
01:09:58.600 --> 01:10:00.199
that I refused to call still life

2164
01:10:00.200 --> 01:10:02.399
and I do like, you know, like I,

2165
01:10:02.400 --> 01:10:03.939
or a lot of work in the land and I

2166
01:10:03.940 --> 01:10:04.959
question what does it mean, what is

2167
01:10:04.960 --> 01:10:06.539
a landscape photograph?

2168
01:10:06.540 --> 01:10:08.159
I realized it was actually the

2169
01:10:08.160 --> 01:10:09.799
person I work with who helped, helps

2170
01:10:09.800 --> 01:10:10.959
me print. And they're like, do you

2171
01:10:10.960 --> 01:10:12.359
realize there's not a single horizon

2172
01:10:12.360 --> 01:10:14.119
line in any of these?

2173
01:10:14.120 --> 01:10:15.579
And I was like, it wasn't

2174
01:10:15.580 --> 01:10:16.819
necessarily a conscious thing, like,

2175
01:10:16.820 --> 01:10:18.899
I'm gonna obscure the horizon line,

2176
01:10:18.900 --> 01:10:21.039
but to push against

2177
01:10:21.040 --> 01:10:22.638
our expectations of how we

2178
01:10:22.639 --> 01:10:24.419
categorize, I think is a through

2179
01:10:24.420 --> 01:10:25.999
line. I also think there's like a

2180
01:10:26.000 --> 01:10:27.439
real responsibility when you're

2181
01:10:27.440 --> 01:10:28.599
engaging with people.

2182
01:10:31.420 --> 01:10:33.379
And I prefer to work with

2183
01:10:33.380 --> 01:10:35.379
rocks and avaloney and

2184
01:10:35.380 --> 01:10:37.359
tide pools and the ocean and the

2185
01:10:37.360 --> 01:10:39.219
land. I say that because I

2186
01:10:39.220 --> 01:10:40.499
think there is also a responsibility

2187
01:10:40.500 --> 01:10:42.679
to have these other beings

2188
01:10:42.680 --> 01:10:44.518
have a voice and have a

2189
01:10:44.519 --> 01:10:46.499
presence and to pay attention

2190
01:10:46.500 --> 01:10:48.479
to their messages in a way

2191
01:10:48.480 --> 01:10:49.549
that we may be.

2192
01:10:49.550 --> 01:10:51.429
Again, the cerebral neck up

2193
01:10:51.430 --> 01:10:53.609
way, oh, all these things we know.

2194
01:10:53.610 --> 01:10:54.949
And you're like, but do we really

2195
01:10:54.950 --> 01:10:56.829
know? And how do we feel and

2196
01:10:56.830 --> 01:10:58.789
connect and orient ourselves

2197
01:10:58.790 --> 01:11:01.189
in a way that's not just

2198
01:11:01.190 --> 01:11:03.349
here, but it's actually rooted

2199
01:11:03.350 --> 01:11:05.308
in a different place and how we

2200
01:11:05.309 --> 01:11:06.749
move through the world.

2201
01:11:06.750 --> 01:11:08.549
And maybe we hang things higher so

2202
01:11:08.550 --> 01:11:10.329
we open our bodies up and maybe we

2203
01:11:10.330 --> 01:11:12.229
put things on the ground so that

2204
01:11:12.230 --> 01:11:14.149
you're actually recognizing

2205
01:11:14.150 --> 01:11:16.109
all of the support spaces

2206
01:11:16.110 --> 01:11:18.129
that we exist within that aren't

2207
01:11:18.130 --> 01:11:19.489
just this like.

2208
01:11:19.490 --> 01:11:21.109
Human eye level,

2209
01:11:22.769 --> 01:11:24.509
and pushing away from that as being

2210
01:11:24.510 --> 01:11:25.510
the only vantage point.

2211
01:11:26.639 --> 01:11:27.599
Yeah, I appreciate that question

2212
01:11:27.600 --> 01:11:28.479
about portraiture.

2213
01:11:28.480 --> 01:11:30.739
I originally, in 2009,

2214
01:11:30.740 --> 01:11:32.299
for the first iteration of the

2215
01:11:32.300 --> 01:11:33.499
project was gonna be all portraits

2216
01:11:33.500 --> 01:11:35.638
of unstable materials, photographs

2217
01:11:35.639 --> 01:11:37.579
of people fading to a

2218
01:11:37.580 --> 01:11:39.339
blank monochrome, and I decided I

2219
01:11:39.340 --> 01:11:41.099
couldn't do that because the

2220
01:11:41.100 --> 01:11:43.079
connection to that which has been or

2221
01:11:43.080 --> 01:11:44.719
death, mortality, was just too

2222
01:11:44.720 --> 01:11:46.539
strong. So I've decided to include

2223
01:11:46.540 --> 01:11:47.879
a diversity genre, including

2224
01:11:47.880 --> 01:11:49.619
portraiture or landscape still

2225
01:11:49.620 --> 01:11:51.638
lifes, logos, for instance,

2226
01:11:51.639 --> 01:11:53.279
that cropped Amazon logo that was on

2227
01:11:53.280 --> 01:11:55.399
screen earlier, and then screenshot

2228
01:11:55.400 --> 01:11:56.479
compositions most recently.

2229
01:11:58.889 --> 01:12:00.729
Well, with that,

2230
01:12:00.730 --> 01:12:02.689
I wanted to thank Shannon,

2231
01:12:03.889 --> 01:12:06.009
Evan, and the entire

2232
01:12:06.010 --> 01:12:08.129
staff of the Hammer Museum

2233
01:12:08.130 --> 01:12:10.029
for hosting us, for being so

2234
01:12:10.030 --> 01:12:12.009
patient and loving.

2235
01:12:12.010 --> 01:12:13.569
And we're going to take 10 minutes

2236
01:12:13.570 --> 01:12:15.449
break. And let's

2237
01:12:15.450 --> 01:12:17.329
get back here.

2238
01:12:18.510 --> 01:12:19.510
438.

2239
01:12:21.760 --> 01:12:22.959
Good afternoon, everyone.

2240
01:12:22.960 --> 01:12:24.859
Thank you all so much for being

2241
01:12:24.860 --> 01:12:25.860
here today.

2242
01:12:26.880 --> 01:12:28.619
My name is Clarissa Esguerra.

2243
01:12:28.620 --> 01:12:30.399
I am the curator of costume and

2244
01:12:30.400 --> 01:12:32.339
textiles at the Los Angeles County

2245
01:12:32.340 --> 01:12:34.099
Museum of Art.

2246
01:12:34.100 --> 01:12:35.919
And I'm thrilled to be

2247
01:12:35.920 --> 01:12:37.779
part of

2248
01:12:37.780 --> 01:12:39.799
today. And I really thank

2249
01:12:39.800 --> 01:12:41.839
Grace and the Asian American

2250
01:12:41.840 --> 01:12:43.519
Pacific Islander Arts Network,

2251
01:12:45.120 --> 01:12:46.260
Shannon and the Hammer,

2252
01:12:47.300 --> 01:12:49.279
and Danielle Shang, too.

2253
01:12:49.280 --> 01:12:51.259
For bringing this

2254
01:12:51.260 --> 01:12:53.819
amazing group of Filipino-American

2255
01:12:53.820 --> 01:12:55.799
artists together to have this

2256
01:12:55.800 --> 01:12:56.839
discussion.

2257
01:12:56.840 --> 01:12:58.839
Yeah, I was reflecting

2258
01:12:58.840 --> 01:13:00.659
on the way in today

2259
01:13:00.660 --> 01:13:02.479
and I shared this with some of you

2260
01:13:02.480 --> 01:13:04.399
that in my

2261
01:13:04.400 --> 01:13:06.619
20ish years in Southern California,

2262
01:13:06.620 --> 01:13:08.779
somehow I have never been to a panel

2263
01:13:08.780 --> 01:13:10.679
that focuses on Filipino-

2264
01:13:10.680 --> 01:13:13.319
American contemporary artists.

2265
01:13:13.320 --> 01:13:14.779
And so for me as a

2266
01:13:14.780 --> 01:13:16.439
Filipino-american, I cannot tell you

2267
01:13:16.440 --> 01:13:18.319
how powerful it is to be here

2268
01:13:18.320 --> 01:13:19.219
with you today.

2269
01:13:19.220 --> 01:13:20.299
And to have this stage.

2270
01:13:20.300 --> 01:13:22.619
So thank you again for

2271
01:13:22.620 --> 01:13:24.339
giving us this space.

2272
01:13:24.340 --> 01:13:26.219
So we will begin with some

2273
01:13:26.220 --> 01:13:27.899
introductions.

2274
01:13:27.900 --> 01:13:28.900
And so Muljan, go ahead.

2275
01:13:33.100 --> 01:13:35.279
My name is Miljan Roberta.

2276
01:13:35.280 --> 01:13:36.760
I'm an artist.

2277
01:13:42.910 --> 01:13:44.849
These are

2278
01:13:44.850 --> 01:13:47.209
stills from my

2279
01:13:47.210 --> 01:13:48.389
recent work.

2280
01:13:52.040 --> 01:13:54.619
It revolves around sort of

2281
01:13:54.620 --> 01:13:56.499
the apocalypse and the

2282
01:13:56.500 --> 01:13:58.599
end and sort of thinking through

2283
01:13:58.600 --> 01:14:00.839
how the West sort

2284
01:14:00.840 --> 01:14:02.679
of conceives or imagines

2285
01:14:02.680 --> 01:14:03.680
its end.

2286
01:14:06.330 --> 01:14:08.469
My recent thinking, I guess,

2287
01:14:08.470 --> 01:14:13.449
is about categories

2288
01:14:13.450 --> 01:14:14.829
and rhyming.

2289
01:14:21.670 --> 01:14:23.649
My name is Patrick Martinez,

2290
01:14:23.650 --> 01:14:25.350
I'm based here in Los Angeles.

2291
01:14:30.150 --> 01:14:32.069
So this work is like a

2292
01:14:32.070 --> 01:14:33.249
mixed media work.

2293
01:14:33.250 --> 01:14:35.149
I paint and I draw

2294
01:14:35.150 --> 01:14:38.349
and I sculpt, but this

2295
01:14:38.350 --> 01:14:40.268
work has a lot of

2296
01:14:40.269 --> 01:14:42.329
things. It's stucco, it's

2297
01:14:42.330 --> 01:14:43.490
paint, it spray paint,

2298
01:14:44.809 --> 01:14:47.029
it's tile, ceramic tile,

2299
01:14:47.030 --> 01:14:48.030
it neon.

2300
01:14:49.380 --> 01:14:51.979
I imagine these as landscapes that

2301
01:14:51.980 --> 01:14:54.018
are inspired by and formed

2302
01:14:54.019 --> 01:14:54.979
by Los Angeles.

2303
01:14:54.980 --> 01:14:56.899
So the materials that

2304
01:14:56.900 --> 01:14:59.138
I'm taking from the landscape,

2305
01:14:59.139 --> 01:15:00.799
these are all kind of like images

2306
01:15:00.800 --> 01:15:02.359
and materials that are sampled from

2307
01:15:02.360 --> 01:15:04.259
the landscapes to kind of compose a

2308
01:15:04.260 --> 01:15:06.739
landscape. This specific piece is

2309
01:15:06.740 --> 01:15:08.979
about the galleon trade

2310
01:15:08.980 --> 01:15:11.199
route. It speaks on that.

2311
01:15:11.200 --> 01:15:13.459
A lot of the ceramic

2312
01:15:13.460 --> 01:15:15.599
tiles, the green,

2313
01:15:15.600 --> 01:15:18.199
blue and yellow ones are

2314
01:15:18.200 --> 01:15:19.799
restaurant tiles from them.

2315
01:15:19.800 --> 01:15:21.619
Los Angeles that you might see at El

2316
01:15:21.620 --> 01:15:22.879
Salvadorian restaurants, Mexican

2317
01:15:22.880 --> 01:15:25.199
restaurants, that

2318
01:15:25.200 --> 01:15:26.638
are made in Mexico.

2319
01:15:26.639 --> 01:15:28.599
And the other tiles,

2320
01:15:28.600 --> 01:15:29.839
cement tiles that you see, the

2321
01:15:29.840 --> 01:15:31.939
purple maroon and green

2322
01:15:31.940 --> 01:15:33.499
tiles are from Manila, the

2323
01:15:33.500 --> 01:15:34.579
Philippines.

2324
01:15:34.580 --> 01:15:37.119
So I'm kind of thinking about

2325
01:15:37.120 --> 01:15:39.159
materials and weaving

2326
01:15:39.160 --> 01:15:41.299
and composing those materials

2327
01:15:41.300 --> 01:15:42.819
together in the work that I make

2328
01:15:42.820 --> 01:15:43.940
with these landscapes.

2329
01:15:44.980 --> 01:15:47.159
So observing the landscape

2330
01:15:47.160 --> 01:15:49.220
and kind of drawing from it.

2331
01:15:50.889 --> 01:15:52.789
I also work, I have work up

2332
01:15:52.790 --> 01:15:55.029
now here at the Maiden LA.

2333
01:15:55.030 --> 01:15:56.308
This was kind of the first piece

2334
01:15:56.309 --> 01:15:58.449
that instigated

2335
01:15:58.450 --> 01:16:00.429
this next piece, or this piece here

2336
01:16:00.430 --> 01:16:02.329
on display, but this

2337
01:16:02.330 --> 01:16:05.689
one I created in 2023.

2338
01:16:05.690 --> 01:16:06.949
Again, just kind of thinking about

2339
01:16:06.950 --> 01:16:08.909
the landscape of Los Angeles and the

2340
01:16:08.910 --> 01:16:10.768
histories of it.

2341
01:16:10.769 --> 01:16:12.689
I look at Los Angeles as a,

2342
01:16:12.690 --> 01:16:13.888
you know, growing up as a mural

2343
01:16:13.889 --> 01:16:15.349
town, so I kind of take liberties

2344
01:16:15.350 --> 01:16:17.949
with composing,

2345
01:16:17.950 --> 01:16:20.130
um, you know, certain, um,

2346
01:16:21.840 --> 01:16:23.659
vignettes and things that I

2347
01:16:23.660 --> 01:16:25.179
want to see painted on those

2348
01:16:25.180 --> 01:16:26.180
surfaces.

2349
01:16:26.840 --> 01:16:28.879
So typically you'll find that

2350
01:16:28.880 --> 01:16:30.719
I use a lot of stucco and

2351
01:16:30.720 --> 01:16:32.959
cinder blocks and the

2352
01:16:32.960 --> 01:16:34.299
the common theme between my

2353
01:16:34.300 --> 01:16:36.138
materials is like but all

2354
01:16:36.139 --> 01:16:37.419
the materials are kind of like

2355
01:16:37.420 --> 01:16:38.999
fleeting and kind of leaving the

2356
01:16:39.000 --> 01:16:41.159
city and kind being

2357
01:16:41.160 --> 01:16:43.638
replaced with a new esthetic.

2358
01:16:43.639 --> 01:16:45.999
I'm thinking about archiving

2359
01:16:46.000 --> 01:16:47.899
those materials or kind of

2360
01:16:50.490 --> 01:16:52.049
freezing those materials into the

2361
01:16:52.050 --> 01:16:53.050
work.

2362
01:16:55.730 --> 01:16:57.689
And this next piece, I

2363
01:16:57.690 --> 01:17:00.308
also work with neon

2364
01:17:00.309 --> 01:17:02.049
text-based works.

2365
01:17:02.050 --> 01:17:03.849
These were kind of inspired by,

2366
01:17:03.850 --> 01:17:05.509
again, the landscape of L.A.

2367
01:17:05.510 --> 01:17:07.329
Around 2008, I was driving down

2368
01:17:07.330 --> 01:17:08.929
Whittier Boulevard from my studio

2369
01:17:08.930 --> 01:17:10.369
and kind of seeing these kind of mom

2370
01:17:10.370 --> 01:17:11.888
and pop shops in East L.

2371
01:17:11.889 --> 01:17:12.889
A.

2372
01:17:13.450 --> 01:17:15.369
Advertise, you know, checks

2373
01:17:15.370 --> 01:17:17.209
cash, income tax, No

2374
01:17:17.210 --> 01:17:18.650
to Republic, pawn shops.

2375
01:17:20.389 --> 01:17:22.269
And wanting to use this kind

2376
01:17:22.270 --> 01:17:24.229
of format that I kind of sampled

2377
01:17:24.230 --> 01:17:26.169
from this mom and

2378
01:17:26.170 --> 01:17:27.509
pop esthetic to kind of speak back

2379
01:17:27.510 --> 01:17:30.369
to the people that were passing by

2380
01:17:30.370 --> 01:17:33.289
these kinds of

2381
01:17:33.290 --> 01:17:34.329
shops.

2382
01:17:34.330 --> 01:17:35.629
Kind of this esthetic that had

2383
01:17:35.630 --> 01:17:37.869
nothing to do with commercial

2384
01:17:37.870 --> 01:17:39.829
advertising

2385
01:17:39.830 --> 01:17:41.569
or anything like that.

2386
01:17:42.830 --> 01:17:44.888
Some of these messages come from

2387
01:17:44.889 --> 01:17:46.589
oratorical sources from the past

2388
01:17:46.590 --> 01:17:48.468
that I want to make present and

2389
01:17:48.469 --> 01:17:50.849
things that I kind of.

2390
01:17:50.850 --> 01:17:52.909
Compose and make up, and

2391
01:17:52.910 --> 01:17:54.649
this installation's at the Whitney

2392
01:17:54.650 --> 01:17:56.989
Museum a few years ago.

2393
01:17:59.210 --> 01:18:00.210
Yeah, that's it.

2394
01:18:09.080 --> 01:18:11.019
Sorry, if

2395
01:18:11.020 --> 01:18:12.739
it's okay with you guys, I kind of

2396
01:18:12.740 --> 01:18:14.180
prepared a statement.

2397
01:18:15.559 --> 01:18:16.759
Well, first of all, I want to thank

2398
01:18:16.760 --> 01:18:19.099
Danielle Chang and the AAPI

2399
01:18:19.100 --> 01:18:21.039
Network for inviting me to

2400
01:18:21.040 --> 01:18:22.919
share today, and I thank you all for

2401
01:18:22.920 --> 01:18:24.620
being here today as well.

2402
01:18:25.880 --> 01:18:28.659
I'm a multi-material artist.

2403
01:18:28.660 --> 01:18:30.499
I use materials that can be

2404
01:18:30.500 --> 01:18:32.699
primarily manipulated by myself

2405
01:18:32.700 --> 01:18:34.539
because I like the process

2406
01:18:34.540 --> 01:18:37.079
of engaging with my hands when I

2407
01:18:37.080 --> 01:18:38.999
make art. It serves as a

2408
01:18:39.000 --> 01:18:40.899
gateway for me to consciousness.

2409
01:18:42.420 --> 01:18:44.599
My body of work includes

2410
01:18:44.600 --> 01:18:46.718
drawings, paintings, sculptures,

2411
01:18:46.719 --> 01:18:48.479
collage, and installation,

2412
01:18:49.580 --> 01:18:50.919
all that are entered through

2413
01:18:50.920 --> 01:18:51.920
drawing.

2414
01:18:52.680 --> 01:18:54.739
I make work to

2415
01:18:54.740 --> 01:18:56.919
broaden the inherited cultural

2416
01:18:56.920 --> 01:18:57.920
narratives.

2417
01:18:58.820 --> 01:19:00.699
I was born in Manila, and I

2418
01:19:00.700 --> 01:19:02.539
immigrated to Los Angeles

2419
01:19:02.540 --> 01:19:04.209
in 1970.

2420
01:19:04.210 --> 01:19:06.029
And just before turning four years

2421
01:19:06.030 --> 01:19:08.089
old, most likely before I realized

2422
01:19:08.090 --> 01:19:10.109
it, my work began

2423
01:19:10.110 --> 01:19:12.289
as a deconstruction

2424
01:19:12.290 --> 01:19:14.569
of my immigrant experience,

2425
01:19:14.570 --> 01:19:15.989
primarily from questions about

2426
01:19:15.990 --> 01:19:17.469
growing up marginalized.

2427
01:19:19.389 --> 01:19:21.349
While in graduate school, I began

2428
01:19:21.350 --> 01:19:23.349
to develop strategies in my

2429
01:19:23.350 --> 01:19:24.829
work to avoid pigeon holding.

2430
01:19:26.190 --> 01:19:28.049
And I chose to use replication

2431
01:19:28.050 --> 01:19:30.109
and consumerism to address the

2432
01:19:30.110 --> 01:19:31.549
personal narratives instead of

2433
01:19:31.550 --> 01:19:32.550
figuration.

2434
01:19:33.280 --> 01:19:34.879
Although I still enjoy using

2435
01:19:34.880 --> 01:19:36.919
ordinary in my work, ordinary

2436
01:19:36.920 --> 01:19:38.839
things, my interests have been

2437
01:19:38.840 --> 01:19:41.218
evolving as I encounter, read,

2438
01:19:41.219 --> 01:19:42.699
and learn more about colonial

2439
01:19:42.700 --> 01:19:45.959
history, racial constructs,

2440
01:19:45.960 --> 01:19:47.718
Filipino-American history, and my

2441
01:19:47.719 --> 01:19:49.699
own rich heritage.

2442
01:19:49.700 --> 01:19:51.558
My encounters with artifacts,

2443
01:19:51.559 --> 01:19:53.479
images, and archives have introduced

2444
01:19:53.480 --> 01:19:55.439
figurative elements back into my

2445
01:19:55.440 --> 01:19:57.179
visual vocabulary.

2446
01:19:57.180 --> 01:19:59.679
I see myself as a recorder

2447
01:19:59.680 --> 01:20:01.558
that seeks to connect with what

2448
01:20:01.559 --> 01:20:03.069
I'm observing.

2449
01:20:03.070 --> 01:20:05.388
I also employ scale and

2450
01:20:05.389 --> 01:20:07.249
perspective in what I do, as I'm

2451
01:20:07.250 --> 01:20:09.069
always interested in the way

2452
01:20:09.070 --> 01:20:10.629
the work can be encountered because

2453
01:20:10.630 --> 01:20:12.949
ultimately I'm valuing

2454
01:20:12.950 --> 01:20:13.950
awareness.

2455
01:20:16.059 --> 01:20:17.299
Thank you. Thank you, Meljon,

2456
01:20:17.300 --> 01:20:19.059
Patrick, and Mary Rose.

2457
01:20:20.300 --> 01:20:22.379
The theme of today's panel

2458
01:20:22.380 --> 01:20:25.239
is Filipino-American temporalities.

2459
01:20:25.240 --> 01:20:26.399
And when we talk about

2460
01:20:26.400 --> 01:20:28.039
temporalities, that is the state of

2461
01:20:28.040 --> 01:20:30.218
being bounded in time,

2462
01:20:30.219 --> 01:20:31.599
referring to the quality of

2463
01:20:31.600 --> 01:20:33.579
existence within a past,

2464
01:20:33.580 --> 01:20:34.960
present, future structure.

2465
01:20:36.360 --> 01:20:38.319
And in thinking about that theme of

2466
01:20:38.320 --> 01:20:40.699
time, place, Also,

2467
01:20:40.700 --> 01:20:41.949
hybridity.

2468
01:20:41.950 --> 01:20:43.729
All three of these artists, we could

2469
01:20:43.730 --> 01:20:45.888
see that this informs their identity

2470
01:20:45.889 --> 01:20:47.350
and thus their work too.

2471
01:20:49.010 --> 01:20:51.029
Each artist on this panel explores

2472
01:20:51.030 --> 01:20:53.029
time and place, whether it is

2473
01:20:53.030 --> 01:20:54.968
an interrogation of past histories

2474
01:20:54.969 --> 01:20:57.209
that were never taught to us,

2475
01:20:57.210 --> 01:20:59.049
telling stories buried in time,

2476
01:20:59.050 --> 01:21:00.529
or investigating the colonial

2477
01:21:00.530 --> 01:21:02.409
structures of our perceived sense

2478
01:21:02.410 --> 01:21:04.449
of time in itself,

2479
01:21:04.450 --> 01:21:06.029
which Muljohn has an amazing essay

2480
01:21:06.030 --> 01:21:06.829
about.

2481
01:21:06.830 --> 01:21:08.449
I highly recommend, it's a great

2482
01:21:08.450 --> 01:21:09.450
tool.

2483
01:21:10.200 --> 01:21:12.019
What role does time

2484
01:21:12.020 --> 01:21:13.939
and place play in

2485
01:21:13.940 --> 01:21:14.940
your work?

2486
01:21:26.080 --> 01:21:27.999
Lately, it's something

2487
01:21:28.000 --> 01:21:29.859
I think about all the time.

2488
01:21:34.020 --> 01:21:36.138
I'm just thinking through the

2489
01:21:36.139 --> 01:21:38.279
basics of what

2490
01:21:38.280 --> 01:21:39.558
time is.

2491
01:21:39.559 --> 01:21:41.479
And I think a lot

2492
01:21:41.480 --> 01:21:44.619
of times we

2493
01:21:44.620 --> 01:21:47.019
take a lot of ideas

2494
01:21:47.020 --> 01:21:48.979
for granted.

2495
01:21:48.980 --> 01:21:50.499
And so I'm sort of

2496
01:21:53.350 --> 01:21:57.669
digging in and sort of

2497
01:21:57.670 --> 01:21:59.289
questioning sort of the

2498
01:21:59.290 --> 01:22:03.929
foundational, you know,

2499
01:22:03.930 --> 01:22:05.469
foundational ideas of.

2500
01:22:07.860 --> 01:22:09.699
What is more foundational than time

2501
01:22:09.700 --> 01:22:11.779
and space, and to

2502
01:22:11.780 --> 01:22:15.739
figure out how

2503
01:22:15.740 --> 01:22:18.439
much of that

2504
01:22:18.440 --> 01:22:21.939
construction informs,

2505
01:22:23.380 --> 01:22:27.499
or how we're implicated in

2506
01:22:27.500 --> 01:22:28.859
these power structures.

2507
01:22:28.860 --> 01:22:31.379
Right, like basically thinking

2508
01:22:31.380 --> 01:22:32.380
through like.

2509
01:22:34.050 --> 01:22:36.968
To what extent are you

2510
01:22:36.969 --> 01:22:37.989
a colonial subject?

2511
01:22:41.540 --> 01:22:43.379
Is there a possible way to sort

2512
01:22:43.380 --> 01:22:45.259
of find

2513
01:22:45.260 --> 01:22:47.199
tools or find ways of thinking

2514
01:22:47.200 --> 01:22:49.519
to sort of figure out

2515
01:22:49.520 --> 01:22:52.359
what's in and what's out or

2516
01:22:52.360 --> 01:22:55.099
kind of discern and

2517
01:22:55.100 --> 01:22:56.680
help you navigate, I guess.

2518
01:22:57.700 --> 01:23:00.019
So yeah, so lately that's

2519
01:23:00.020 --> 01:23:01.459
what I've been really concerned

2520
01:23:01.460 --> 01:23:03.459
about, just thinking through what

2521
01:23:03.460 --> 01:23:05.499
time is, what space

2522
01:23:05.500 --> 01:23:08.638
is and sort of

2523
01:23:08.639 --> 01:23:09.959
like, wow.

2524
01:23:09.960 --> 01:23:12.319
How that split happened and

2525
01:23:12.320 --> 01:23:13.999
sort of I'm interested in sort of

2526
01:23:14.000 --> 01:23:15.380
the history of.

2527
01:23:17.809 --> 01:23:19.649
And you explore that through all of

2528
01:23:19.650 --> 01:23:22.169
these, your digital work and

2529
01:23:22.170 --> 01:23:24.029
with your essay.

2530
01:23:24.030 --> 01:23:26.829
And I don't know, in talking to you

2531
01:23:26.830 --> 01:23:28.849
deeply about it, I never thought

2532
01:23:28.850 --> 01:23:30.790
to question linear time.

2533
01:23:31.870 --> 01:23:33.409
That that could be a structure that

2534
01:23:33.410 --> 01:23:35.069
was taught to us.

2535
01:23:35.070 --> 01:23:36.070
You know?

2536
01:23:36.630 --> 01:23:37.769
And that because there's linear

2537
01:23:37.770 --> 01:23:39.589
time, there is like one way

2538
01:23:39.590 --> 01:23:41.569
history should be.

2539
01:23:41.570 --> 01:23:43.549
And then when you question, wait a

2540
01:23:43.550 --> 01:23:45.109
minute, are the histories that are

2541
01:23:45.110 --> 01:23:46.129
linear that I know?

2542
01:23:47.170 --> 01:23:48.888
The histories that I, are there

2543
01:23:48.889 --> 01:23:50.409
histories beyond that that are

2544
01:23:50.410 --> 01:23:52.449
happening at the same time or

2545
01:23:52.450 --> 01:23:54.129
that are more expansive, it really

2546
01:23:54.130 --> 01:23:55.130
changes.

2547
01:23:56.370 --> 01:24:00.849
Yeah, I think it's

2548
01:24:00.850 --> 01:24:03.409
good to sort of

2549
01:24:03.410 --> 01:24:05.289
lean in or double down

2550
01:24:05.290 --> 01:24:07.269
onto a kind of, you know, like

2551
01:24:07.270 --> 01:24:09.069
what is a diasporic subject, you

2552
01:24:09.070 --> 01:24:10.949
know, and how does, you know, what

2553
01:24:10.950 --> 01:24:12.769
is that? And I think part of that

2554
01:24:12.770 --> 01:24:15.069
is a kind of skepticism

2555
01:24:15.070 --> 01:24:17.789
of ground, right,

2556
01:24:17.790 --> 01:24:19.769
to be able to go in

2557
01:24:19.770 --> 01:24:22.129
between or to be skeptical

2558
01:24:22.130 --> 01:24:24.049
of the dominant, you

2559
01:24:24.050 --> 01:24:26.549
what we think is reality.

2560
01:24:26.550 --> 01:24:28.549
Right, and I guess I just

2561
01:24:28.550 --> 01:24:30.369
kept pushing and

2562
01:24:30.370 --> 01:24:32.308
sort of figuring out, you

2563
01:24:32.309 --> 01:24:34.169
know, what other basic

2564
01:24:34.170 --> 01:24:36.529
things that we take for granted and

2565
01:24:36.530 --> 01:24:38.349
we think is real, but actually

2566
01:24:38.350 --> 01:24:39.350
it's constructed.

2567
01:24:41.590 --> 01:24:42.590
Absolutely.

2568
01:24:45.450 --> 01:24:47.329
Yeah, I think about

2569
01:24:47.330 --> 01:24:49.888
just responding

2570
01:24:49.889 --> 01:24:52.888
in real time and also just

2571
01:24:52.889 --> 01:24:55.929
experience and

2572
01:24:55.930 --> 01:24:57.968
also just thinking about these

2573
01:24:57.969 --> 01:24:59.290
cycles that we go through.

2574
01:25:00.930 --> 01:25:02.749
With the Maiden LA work,

2575
01:25:02.750 --> 01:25:04.849
I'm thinking about brown bodies

2576
01:25:04.850 --> 01:25:06.729
being erased from this land

2577
01:25:06.730 --> 01:25:08.968
and via

2578
01:25:08.969 --> 01:25:11.529
the administration and

2579
01:25:11.530 --> 01:25:12.509
this current administration.

2580
01:25:12.510 --> 01:25:13.449
Them.

2581
01:25:13.450 --> 01:25:15.449
And how long have brown bodies

2582
01:25:15.450 --> 01:25:16.649
been on this land.

2583
01:25:18.210 --> 01:25:20.388
So I think about,

2584
01:25:20.389 --> 01:25:22.109
as I mentioned before, LA being this

2585
01:25:22.110 --> 01:25:24.169
mural town and murals being

2586
01:25:24.170 --> 01:25:26.609
located throughout

2587
01:25:26.610 --> 01:25:28.529
the Americas and thinking

2588
01:25:28.530 --> 01:25:30.709
about the connection between Mexico

2589
01:25:30.710 --> 01:25:33.209
and California

2590
01:25:33.210 --> 01:25:35.350
being Mexico at one point

2591
01:25:36.410 --> 01:25:38.489
and finding murals and unearthing

2592
01:25:38.490 --> 01:25:40.569
them in central Mexico

2593
01:25:40.570 --> 01:25:41.379
and.

2594
01:25:41.380 --> 01:25:43.279
You know, certain archeological

2595
01:25:43.280 --> 01:25:44.619
sites and migrating those brown

2596
01:25:44.620 --> 01:25:47.339
bodies to lay surfaces.

2597
01:25:47.340 --> 01:25:49.439
And in order to collapse

2598
01:25:49.440 --> 01:25:51.799
time and speak on,

2599
01:25:51.800 --> 01:25:52.980
like, you know.

2600
01:25:54.260 --> 01:25:56.179
These bodies have been here a

2601
01:25:56.180 --> 01:25:57.879
long time.

2602
01:25:57.880 --> 01:26:00.819
And migration is just,

2603
01:26:00.820 --> 01:26:02.699
or you know like a border or

2604
01:26:02.700 --> 01:26:05.199
lines in the sand or

2605
01:26:05.200 --> 01:26:06.799
something that we created.

2606
01:26:06.800 --> 01:26:08.719
And so.

2607
01:26:10.610 --> 01:26:13.529
I mean, like I think about all

2608
01:26:13.530 --> 01:26:14.569
of these things kind of

2609
01:26:14.570 --> 01:26:16.388
simultaneously in the studio, these

2610
01:26:16.389 --> 01:26:17.909
kinds of ideas just kind of run

2611
01:26:17.910 --> 01:26:20.808
through my mind and I'm

2612
01:26:20.809 --> 01:26:22.769
working with the material and the

2613
01:26:22.770 --> 01:26:25.089
paint and kind of excavating,

2614
01:26:25.090 --> 01:26:28.949
discovering and

2615
01:26:28.950 --> 01:26:31.609
redacting certain

2616
01:26:31.610 --> 01:26:33.189
elements

2617
01:26:35.150 --> 01:26:37.109
of the collage or the

2618
01:26:37.110 --> 01:26:38.369
painting that I'm trying to.

2619
01:26:41.900 --> 01:26:44.379
Present to think

2620
01:26:44.380 --> 01:26:45.839
about the experience that is

2621
01:26:45.840 --> 01:26:47.539
happening now.

2622
01:26:47.540 --> 01:26:49.359
So I mean, it's on purpose that

2623
01:26:49.360 --> 01:26:51.239
these brown bodies are that big and

2624
01:26:51.240 --> 01:26:53.739
they're being erased or

2625
01:26:53.740 --> 01:26:55.559
being discovered

2626
01:26:57.059 --> 01:26:59.429
in the installation that I made.

2627
01:26:59.430 --> 01:27:01.329
I like that with your

2628
01:27:01.330 --> 01:27:03.069
work, like the one that's upstairs

2629
01:27:03.070 --> 01:27:05.009
and made in LA, how you

2630
01:27:05.010 --> 01:27:08.089
have created layers that

2631
01:27:08.090 --> 01:27:10.629
you sped up time by distressing,

2632
01:27:10.630 --> 01:27:12.329
but it's like through time, we're

2633
01:27:12.330 --> 01:27:14.569
finding out that history in a way,

2634
01:27:14.570 --> 01:27:17.369
and it's crumbling and

2635
01:27:17.370 --> 01:27:18.370
revealing itself.

2636
01:27:19.559 --> 01:27:21.479
I mean in the materials,

2637
01:27:21.480 --> 01:27:24.479
especially now in

2638
01:27:24.480 --> 01:27:26.379
the city of Los Angeles, it's one of

2639
01:27:26.380 --> 01:27:28.138
the most expensive places to be here

2640
01:27:28.139 --> 01:27:29.539
in the United States,

2641
01:27:30.620 --> 01:27:32.539
so the kind

2642
01:27:32.540 --> 01:27:34.619
of breaking

2643
01:27:34.620 --> 01:27:36.509
down, rebuilding

2644
01:27:36.510 --> 01:27:38.179
is sped up.

2645
01:27:38.180 --> 01:27:39.979
So I'm thinking about when I started

2646
01:27:39.980 --> 01:27:41.999
making these landscapes about this

2647
01:27:42.000 --> 01:27:43.959
kind of in between time.

2648
01:27:43.960 --> 01:27:44.960
And

2649
01:27:46.170 --> 01:27:47.949
I guess how I can kind of archive

2650
01:27:47.950 --> 01:27:49.569
those materials into the work and

2651
01:27:49.570 --> 01:27:51.388
then also speak

2652
01:27:51.389 --> 01:27:54.089
to this kind of like

2653
01:27:54.090 --> 01:27:56.049
disappearing esthetic of

2654
01:27:56.050 --> 01:27:58.269
Los Angeles that's, you know,

2655
01:27:58.270 --> 01:28:00.509
fleeting and,

2656
01:28:00.510 --> 01:28:02.349
you know, kind

2657
01:28:02.350 --> 01:28:04.189
of the idea of five or six

2658
01:28:04.190 --> 01:28:06.209
different places in one piece

2659
01:28:06.210 --> 01:28:08.049
and it's not a specific place but

2660
01:28:08.050 --> 01:28:10.308
the idea that in

2661
01:28:10.309 --> 01:28:11.669
some of the works I even use

2662
01:28:11.670 --> 01:28:14.329
photography. My father's

2663
01:28:14.330 --> 01:28:15.330
photo.

2664
01:28:16.830 --> 01:28:18.909
Archive, because he's been here

2665
01:28:18.910 --> 01:28:20.749
in Los Angeles, grew up

2666
01:28:20.750 --> 01:28:22.729
in South Central

2667
01:28:22.730 --> 01:28:24.069
Los Angeles in Boyle Heights,

2668
01:28:25.790 --> 01:28:27.709
and he was kind of observing the

2669
01:28:27.710 --> 01:28:28.929
land because he did photography.

2670
01:28:28.930 --> 01:28:30.749
And so

2671
01:28:30.750 --> 01:28:32.769
I kind of tie

2672
01:28:32.770 --> 01:28:34.949
all those things together, even my

2673
01:28:34.950 --> 01:28:36.149
mother's kind of experience.

2674
01:28:39.880 --> 01:28:40.880
Mary Rose.

2675
01:28:42.440 --> 01:28:45.159
I find it interesting that

2676
01:28:45.160 --> 01:28:47.079
what Mijan was talking about

2677
01:28:47.080 --> 01:28:49.058
and how it kind of

2678
01:28:49.059 --> 01:28:50.620
comes into colonialism.

2679
01:28:51.660 --> 01:28:53.919
Because I

2680
01:28:53.920 --> 01:28:55.479
think for me,

2681
01:28:57.120 --> 01:28:59.099
they're making work

2682
01:28:59.100 --> 01:29:00.919
and then realizing that

2683
01:29:00.920 --> 01:29:03.579
there exists a

2684
01:29:03.580 --> 01:29:05.539
colonial knowledge

2685
01:29:05.540 --> 01:29:08.079
that that

2686
01:29:08.080 --> 01:29:09.599
is prior to...

2687
01:29:09.600 --> 01:29:11.659
Me being here and

2688
01:29:11.660 --> 01:29:13.879
a racial archive that's already

2689
01:29:13.880 --> 01:29:15.199
here.

2690
01:29:15.200 --> 01:29:17.499
So when I am experiencing

2691
01:29:17.500 --> 01:29:19.419
things personally,

2692
01:29:19.420 --> 01:29:21.259
I start to see that it's rooted

2693
01:29:21.260 --> 01:29:23.539
in this history

2694
01:29:23.540 --> 01:29:26.058
that's been kind of

2695
01:29:26.059 --> 01:29:28.239
distributed, you know,

2696
01:29:28.240 --> 01:29:30.539
via who

2697
01:29:30.540 --> 01:29:32.699
creates those archives

2698
01:29:32.700 --> 01:29:35.179
are also the

2699
01:29:35.180 --> 01:29:37.979
bearers of what is archival.

2700
01:29:37.980 --> 01:29:40.239
And so that's what I've been

2701
01:29:40.240 --> 01:29:42.239
learning a lot about,

2702
01:29:42.240 --> 01:29:43.240
is how.

2703
01:29:45.980 --> 01:29:47.419
It's almost stamped already.

2704
01:29:51.260 --> 01:29:52.900
I don't know, when I visited you, I

2705
01:29:52.901 --> 01:29:55.839
loved learning

2706
01:29:55.840 --> 01:29:58.419
about the

2707
01:29:58.420 --> 01:30:00.058
American colonial period and then

2708
01:30:00.059 --> 01:30:02.199
the kind of drawings that

2709
01:30:02.200 --> 01:30:04.019
were, the media, like in the

2710
01:30:04.020 --> 01:30:07.359
previous panel, spoke about how

2711
01:30:07.360 --> 01:30:09.399
it showed, basically

2712
01:30:09.400 --> 01:30:11.399
justified America's

2713
01:30:11.400 --> 01:30:13.638
first colonial subjects,

2714
01:30:13.639 --> 01:30:16.919
which for the Philippines and

2715
01:30:16.920 --> 01:30:19.179
how you really interrogate

2716
01:30:19.180 --> 01:30:20.180
it through your work.

2717
01:30:21.490 --> 01:30:22.849
Which I found really, really

2718
01:30:22.850 --> 01:30:24.089
powerful. Because at first you don't

2719
01:30:24.090 --> 01:30:25.169
see it, and then you see it.

2720
01:30:25.170 --> 01:30:26.449
And then you can't unsee it.

2721
01:30:26.450 --> 01:30:28.410
Much like learning history, right?

2722
01:30:35.250 --> 01:30:36.250
So,

2723
01:30:37.450 --> 01:30:39.549
the Philippines is a very hybrid

2724
01:30:39.550 --> 01:30:40.849
place, and this is something the

2725
01:30:40.850 --> 01:30:42.249
three of us have all talked about,

2726
01:30:42.250 --> 01:30:43.649
or the four of us talked about.

2727
01:30:46.110 --> 01:30:48.589
The Philippines is a very ancient

2728
01:30:48.590 --> 01:30:49.709
place.

2729
01:30:49.710 --> 01:30:50.949
It's a hybrid place.

2730
01:30:50.950 --> 01:30:52.449
It's very diverse.

2731
01:30:52.450 --> 01:30:54.549
It has over 7,500

2732
01:30:54.550 --> 01:30:56.529
islands. It has 180

2733
01:30:56.530 --> 01:30:58.729
languages being spoken.

2734
01:30:58.730 --> 01:31:00.468
In the past, the religions practiced

2735
01:31:00.469 --> 01:31:02.349
were animist, Hindu, Buddhist,

2736
01:31:02.350 --> 01:31:03.809
Islamic, Catholic.

2737
01:31:05.490 --> 01:31:07.009
And then it was colonized by many

2738
01:31:07.010 --> 01:31:08.409
different cultures.

2739
01:31:10.930 --> 01:31:13.449
So to be a Filipino-American

2740
01:31:13.450 --> 01:31:15.989
is an additional layer of hybridity.

2741
01:31:15.990 --> 01:31:17.869
On top of an already very

2742
01:31:17.870 --> 01:31:20.510
hybrid Asian culture,

2743
01:31:21.850 --> 01:31:23.729
and one that is often

2744
01:31:23.730 --> 01:31:25.549
complicated by the

2745
01:31:25.550 --> 01:31:28.229
legacy of being taught the

2746
01:31:28.230 --> 01:31:30.069
urgency to assimilate in

2747
01:31:30.070 --> 01:31:32.249
the U.S., which is definitely

2748
01:31:32.250 --> 01:31:33.369
my experience.

2749
01:31:33.370 --> 01:31:35.289
I don't have Tagalog,

2750
01:31:35.290 --> 01:31:36.749
you know, and I think that's really

2751
01:31:36.750 --> 01:31:38.089
common with a lot of

2752
01:31:38.090 --> 01:31:39.529
first-generation Filipinos.

2753
01:31:41.469 --> 01:31:43.589
And, you now, speaking just

2754
01:31:43.590 --> 01:31:44.590
from a personal

2755
01:31:46.500 --> 01:31:48.619
perspective, this idea of,

2756
01:31:48.620 --> 01:31:50.439
you know, we learn art,

2757
01:31:50.440 --> 01:31:52.279
Western art, and then

2758
01:31:52.280 --> 01:31:54.138
we find out

2759
01:31:54.139 --> 01:31:55.999
that there is history

2760
01:31:56.000 --> 01:31:57.819
beyond that, right?

2761
01:31:57.820 --> 01:32:00.319
And I know for me, as a curator,

2762
01:32:00.320 --> 01:32:02.659
I began my career in

2763
01:32:02.660 --> 01:32:04.079
Western art and I still do.

2764
01:32:05.260 --> 01:32:07.319
But then later, exploring my complex

2765
01:32:07.320 --> 01:32:09.239
feelings through my identity,

2766
01:32:09.240 --> 01:32:10.240
through my work.

2767
01:32:11.750 --> 01:32:12.989
Because that just feels more

2768
01:32:12.990 --> 01:32:14.649
actionable than reading about the

2769
01:32:14.650 --> 01:32:15.670
history, right?

2770
01:32:17.010 --> 01:32:19.329
Is this a similar experience to

2771
01:32:19.330 --> 01:32:21.849
you three as artists

2772
01:32:21.850 --> 01:32:24.169
and how has your upbringing in

2773
01:32:24.170 --> 01:32:26.109
America to immigrant parents shaped

2774
01:32:26.110 --> 01:32:27.110
your practice?

2775
01:32:32.160 --> 01:32:33.460
I can go

2776
01:32:38.550 --> 01:32:40.449
I guess maybe I could

2777
01:32:40.450 --> 01:32:42.589
answer it in a more oblique way.

2778
01:32:44.410 --> 01:32:46.489
Yeah, I mean, I always thought that

2779
01:32:46.490 --> 01:32:48.749
maybe, you know,

2780
01:32:48.750 --> 01:32:51.409
there's something like

2781
01:32:51.410 --> 01:32:52.808
the Philippines is sort of the

2782
01:32:52.809 --> 01:32:54.709
future, the way

2783
01:32:54.710 --> 01:32:56.589
I think about it.

2784
01:32:56.590 --> 01:32:58.629
I guess in

2785
01:32:58.630 --> 01:33:00.569
the way think about hybridity,

2786
01:33:02.150 --> 01:33:03.968
it's a hot take, but I

2787
01:33:03.969 --> 01:33:04.969
think.

2788
01:33:05.880 --> 01:33:08.019
Sort of the

2789
01:33:08.020 --> 01:33:10.459
ideal subject

2790
01:33:10.460 --> 01:33:12.319
of globalization

2791
01:33:12.320 --> 01:33:14.379
is the diasporic

2792
01:33:14.380 --> 01:33:15.619
subject.

2793
01:33:18.980 --> 01:33:21.159
So people who could move in

2794
01:33:21.160 --> 01:33:22.979
between grounds,

2795
01:33:22.980 --> 01:33:23.980
right?

2796
01:33:24.680 --> 01:33:27.399
And they're comfortable

2797
01:33:27.400 --> 01:33:28.659
in doing that.

2798
01:33:28.660 --> 01:33:30.718
And I think that's something

2799
01:33:30.719 --> 01:33:33.359
we do.

2800
01:33:33.360 --> 01:33:35.439
And I this as

2801
01:33:35.440 --> 01:33:36.999
globalization sort of.

2802
01:33:43.730 --> 01:33:45.830
Basically totalizes the earth,

2803
01:33:47.030 --> 01:33:49.329
you could see sort of the response

2804
01:33:49.330 --> 01:33:50.429
to this, right?

2805
01:33:50.430 --> 01:33:54.169
Like the demand on

2806
01:33:54.170 --> 01:33:56.129
subjectivity is that you have to be

2807
01:33:56.130 --> 01:33:58.169
a diasporic subject, right, so

2808
01:33:58.170 --> 01:33:59.968
people, so there's all these

2809
01:33:59.969 --> 01:34:02.089
response, you

2810
01:34:02.090 --> 01:34:04.129
know, like we could see

2811
01:34:04.130 --> 01:34:06.009
here when white people

2812
01:34:06.010 --> 01:34:07.308
freak out, right.

2813
01:34:07.309 --> 01:34:08.739
Now that they have to.

2814
01:34:08.740 --> 01:34:10.519
You know, once they're sort of in

2815
01:34:10.520 --> 01:34:11.558
the center, but through

2816
01:34:11.559 --> 01:34:13.079
globalization, now they have to

2817
01:34:13.080 --> 01:34:14.079
contend with multiple

2818
01:34:14.080 --> 01:34:15.379
subjectivities.

2819
01:34:15.380 --> 01:34:17.319
They have to learn different

2820
01:34:17.320 --> 01:34:18.558
etiquettes to enter different

2821
01:34:18.559 --> 01:34:19.919
spaces, right?

2822
01:34:23.730 --> 01:34:26.009
Yeah, that's, it's like

2823
01:34:26.010 --> 01:34:28.569
talking to Danielle earlier,

2824
01:34:28.570 --> 01:34:31.109
like the Philippines maybe has

2825
01:34:31.110 --> 01:34:33.129
been globalized in the ancient

2826
01:34:33.130 --> 01:34:35.048
world in many ways, maybe,

2827
01:34:35.049 --> 01:34:36.269
you know? And so who is being

2828
01:34:36.270 --> 01:34:37.468
globalized now?

2829
01:34:37.469 --> 01:34:38.469
You know, it was like the.

2830
01:34:40.110 --> 01:34:42.388
Yeah, I think it's,

2831
01:34:42.389 --> 01:34:44.169
I mean, the way I think about it is

2832
01:34:44.170 --> 01:34:46.069
that, you

2833
01:34:46.070 --> 01:34:48.510
know, there's a kind of,

2834
01:34:49.549 --> 01:34:51.109
I think, it's important to have the

2835
01:34:51.110 --> 01:34:53.209
skepticism, right,

2836
01:34:53.210 --> 01:34:55.069
to, I, I

2837
01:34:55.070 --> 01:34:56.989
this is

2838
01:34:56.990 --> 01:34:58.710
hot take again, I think Filipinos.

2839
01:35:02.240 --> 01:35:04.099
Because of this, this hybridity

2840
01:35:04.100 --> 01:35:06.159
and sort of, I

2841
01:35:06.160 --> 01:35:09.579
think they're good at

2842
01:35:09.580 --> 01:35:11.359
navigating through different

2843
01:35:11.360 --> 01:35:12.259
grounds.

2844
01:35:12.260 --> 01:35:14.519
And I think I

2845
01:35:14.520 --> 01:35:16.379
like this skepticism of

2846
01:35:16.380 --> 01:35:18.619
it, of different grounds also,

2847
01:35:18.620 --> 01:35:20.659
you know, they could hop back

2848
01:35:20.660 --> 01:35:22.579
and forth and through multiple

2849
01:35:22.580 --> 01:35:23.439
worlds.

2850
01:35:23.440 --> 01:35:25.339
And that is a, you now, that is

2851
01:35:25.340 --> 01:35:27.479
globalized or

2852
01:35:27.480 --> 01:35:28.799
the subject of globalization.

2853
01:35:31.719 --> 01:35:33.459
Yeah, so I mean, the question then

2854
01:35:33.460 --> 01:35:34.460
is.

2855
01:35:36.830 --> 01:35:38.410
Yeah, now what, I guess.

2856
01:35:42.630 --> 01:35:43.379
Patrick Err.

2857
01:35:43.380 --> 01:35:45.920
Yeah, I mean, my experience is,

2858
01:35:47.540 --> 01:35:49.439
my father, like I mentioned, is from

2859
01:35:49.440 --> 01:35:50.440
here.

2860
01:35:51.340 --> 01:35:52.979
But my father's side and his

2861
01:35:52.980 --> 01:35:54.859
ancestors are from Chihuahua,

2862
01:35:54.860 --> 01:35:55.860
Mexico.

2863
01:35:56.440 --> 01:35:58.298
So they've been, my Father's side

2864
01:35:58.299 --> 01:35:59.659
has been here a long time.

2865
01:36:00.960 --> 01:36:02.519
But on my mother's side, she came

2866
01:36:02.520 --> 01:36:03.718
here in the 70s from the

2867
01:36:03.719 --> 01:36:05.619
Philippines, a small village called

2868
01:36:05.620 --> 01:36:06.620
Tuck Loban,

2869
01:36:07.760 --> 01:36:10.058
and she,

2870
01:36:10.059 --> 01:36:12.659
through her, I was able

2871
01:36:12.660 --> 01:36:14.959
to... I watched her

2872
01:36:14.960 --> 01:36:15.960
assimilate,

2873
01:36:16.980 --> 01:36:17.980
essentially,

2874
01:36:18.880 --> 01:36:20.779
in kind of conceal,

2875
01:36:21.900 --> 01:36:25.379
in certain groups, her

2876
01:36:25.380 --> 01:36:28.539
accent or try to

2877
01:36:28.540 --> 01:36:29.979
adjust herself.

2878
01:36:31.720 --> 01:36:33.619
And I don't know,

2879
01:36:33.620 --> 01:36:35.459
it's something that I saw that she

2880
01:36:35.460 --> 01:36:37.539
was trying to do early on, and

2881
01:36:37.540 --> 01:36:39.599
and she just kind of

2882
01:36:39.600 --> 01:36:41.429
like, was kind of.

2883
01:36:41.430 --> 01:36:43.709
In my mind, she was just fed

2884
01:36:43.710 --> 01:36:45.569
up with the

2885
01:36:45.570 --> 01:36:47.429
whole idea of this American

2886
01:36:47.430 --> 01:36:49.269
dream.

2887
01:36:49.270 --> 01:36:51.909
But I think at the beginning, I

2888
01:36:51.910 --> 01:36:53.509
talk about it in the work that I

2889
01:36:53.510 --> 01:36:57.169
make, is she left this

2890
01:36:57.170 --> 01:36:58.170
idea of paradise,

2891
01:36:59.750 --> 01:37:01.569
these palm trees for another set of

2892
01:37:01.570 --> 01:37:02.808
palm trees here in Los Angeles.

2893
01:37:02.809 --> 01:37:04.808
And she had an idea about

2894
01:37:04.809 --> 01:37:07.009
what things could be like.

2895
01:37:07.010 --> 01:37:09.009
And it just didn't come to fruition.

2896
01:37:09.010 --> 01:37:10.010
Good.

2897
01:37:11.209 --> 01:37:13.009
And, you know, she prayed the rosary

2898
01:37:13.010 --> 01:37:15.289
every day, and she was

2899
01:37:15.290 --> 01:37:17.349
devout Catholic, and

2900
01:37:17.350 --> 01:37:19.089
you know?

2901
01:37:19.090 --> 01:37:20.849
She assimilated in ways that she

2902
01:37:20.850 --> 01:37:22.388
probably, you know she named me

2903
01:37:22.389 --> 01:37:24.149
Patrick, and my brother Christopher,

2904
01:37:25.450 --> 01:37:27.388
and, you know, there, she

2905
01:37:27.389 --> 01:37:28.829
didn't speak to us, and she didn't

2906
01:37:28.830 --> 01:37:30.649
speak Tagalog, she learned that

2907
01:37:30.650 --> 01:37:32.249
later, but she spoke a different

2908
01:37:32.250 --> 01:37:34.249
dialect, Waray,

2909
01:37:34.250 --> 01:37:35.829
and so she wouldn't speak to us like

2910
01:37:35.830 --> 01:37:37.029
that. Like, she would just speak to

2911
01:37:37.030 --> 01:37:38.388
us in English, or try to speak to us

2912
01:37:38.389 --> 01:37:39.899
in english, and.

2913
01:37:39.900 --> 01:37:41.079
The only time that she would speak

2914
01:37:41.080 --> 01:37:42.899
in her language was when she was

2915
01:37:42.900 --> 01:37:44.280
talking to her sisters

2916
01:37:46.000 --> 01:37:48.279
or angry or something,

2917
01:37:48.280 --> 01:37:50.599
just kind of like going off.

2918
01:37:50.600 --> 01:37:51.919
And that was my experience.

2919
01:37:54.200 --> 01:37:56.239
And my mother's side,

2920
01:37:57.580 --> 01:37:58.819
when there was parties and

2921
01:37:58.820 --> 01:38:00.919
birthdays, the

2922
01:38:00.920 --> 01:38:03.959
food was there and the

2923
01:38:03.960 --> 01:38:05.739
festivities were there, but I've not

2924
01:38:05.740 --> 01:38:06.999
yet been to the Philippines.

2925
01:38:09.630 --> 01:38:11.308
And I know it's kind of a crazy

2926
01:38:11.309 --> 01:38:12.889
thing. I'll make my way there, but.

2927
01:38:15.270 --> 01:38:17.430
It's this thing where...

2928
01:38:19.540 --> 01:38:21.379
I saw how uncomfortable she was

2929
01:38:21.380 --> 01:38:23.959
growing up and trying to adjust to

2930
01:38:23.960 --> 01:38:25.439
this country and trying find her

2931
01:38:25.440 --> 01:38:26.440
way.

2932
01:38:27.360 --> 01:38:30.959
And also her

2933
01:38:30.960 --> 01:38:32.779
family too, just trying to figure

2934
01:38:32.780 --> 01:38:34.759
out where they belong

2935
01:38:34.760 --> 01:38:35.879
here.

2936
01:38:35.880 --> 01:38:39.179
And I feel that's

2937
01:38:39.180 --> 01:38:41.259
still kind of true with

2938
01:38:41.260 --> 01:38:43.239
how I'm navigating this

2939
01:38:43.240 --> 01:38:45.399
space, especially the art world

2940
01:38:45.400 --> 01:38:47.460
and other things in life.

2941
01:38:51.940 --> 01:38:54.219
Yeah, for me, similarly,

2942
01:38:55.420 --> 01:38:57.479
my parents came

2943
01:38:57.480 --> 01:38:59.699
in the late 60s

2944
01:38:59.700 --> 01:39:02.558
when the post-seller,

2945
01:39:02.559 --> 01:39:04.659
post-heart seller act

2946
01:39:04.660 --> 01:39:06.519
allowed

2947
01:39:06.520 --> 01:39:08.558
immigration

2948
01:39:08.559 --> 01:39:10.660
from countries outside of Europe.

2949
01:39:11.700 --> 01:39:13.659
And so they came with that wave, the

2950
01:39:13.660 --> 01:39:15.619
fourth wave, and

2951
01:39:15.620 --> 01:39:17.759
they wanted

2952
01:39:17.760 --> 01:39:19.638
us to assimilate early

2953
01:39:19.639 --> 01:39:21.829
so when we were waiting

2954
01:39:21.830 --> 01:39:24.489
for approval.

2955
01:39:24.490 --> 01:39:26.529
They weren't talking to us

2956
01:39:26.530 --> 01:39:27.909
in Tagalog.

2957
01:39:27.910 --> 01:39:29.629
They were talking to in English.

2958
01:39:30.630 --> 01:39:32.349
And my parents come from that

2959
01:39:32.350 --> 01:39:34.689
background where they

2960
01:39:34.690 --> 01:39:36.569
learned American

2961
01:39:36.570 --> 01:39:38.010
values in the Philippines.

2962
01:39:39.090 --> 01:39:41.749
And so it

2963
01:39:41.750 --> 01:39:43.808
was really deep kind

2964
01:39:43.809 --> 01:39:44.809
of...

2965
01:39:46.500 --> 01:39:48.699
We heard about it in

2966
01:39:48.700 --> 01:39:51.099
in the earlier talk

2967
01:39:51.100 --> 01:39:52.939
I'm pretty my mom

2968
01:39:52.940 --> 01:39:54.239
was pretty colonized.

2969
01:39:54.240 --> 01:39:56.179
Yeah, and so

2970
01:39:56.180 --> 01:39:58.039
yeah, I've been You

2971
01:39:58.040 --> 01:40:00.138
know unpacking

2972
01:40:00.139 --> 01:40:02.138
miseducation and

2973
01:40:02.139 --> 01:40:04.298
colonization and decolonization

2974
01:40:04.299 --> 01:40:06.599
and and continue to do that

2975
01:40:06.600 --> 01:40:09.218
in my work from

2976
01:40:09.219 --> 01:40:11.169
my experiences here

2977
01:40:11.170 --> 01:40:13.029
Do you have an example you can share

2978
01:40:13.030 --> 01:40:14.968
of that unpacking

2979
01:40:14.969 --> 01:40:15.939
in your work?

2980
01:40:15.940 --> 01:40:16.940
Um...

2981
01:40:19.420 --> 01:40:21.279
Like almost everything has something

2982
01:40:21.280 --> 01:40:22.280
to do with that.

2983
01:40:27.670 --> 01:40:30.130
I mean, there's even like,

2984
01:40:31.270 --> 01:40:33.669
early in grad school, I did a

2985
01:40:33.670 --> 01:40:35.808
giant jar

2986
01:40:35.809 --> 01:40:36.809
of olives.

2987
01:40:37.670 --> 01:40:39.709
And it was kind of like

2988
01:40:39.710 --> 01:40:41.968
having multiple

2989
01:40:41.969 --> 01:40:44.569
uses of olives,

2990
01:40:44.570 --> 01:40:46.709
and using consumerism

2991
01:40:46.710 --> 01:40:48.888
as an idea of

2992
01:40:48.889 --> 01:40:49.889
distribution.

2993
01:40:53.400 --> 01:40:55.239
I called it Mendoza

2994
01:40:55.240 --> 01:40:57.699
Spanish Queen Olives with

2995
01:40:57.700 --> 01:40:59.798
electric plugs,

2996
01:40:59.799 --> 01:41:01.638
because I was told that

2997
01:41:01.639 --> 01:41:02.639
we had Spanish.

2998
01:41:05.740 --> 01:41:07.779
We're all learning that

2999
01:41:07.780 --> 01:41:10.619
our names were actually not

3000
01:41:10.620 --> 01:41:12.699
Spanish originally,

3001
01:41:12.700 --> 01:41:14.638
but that they were changed

3002
01:41:14.639 --> 01:41:16.619
and we were just all given a

3003
01:41:16.620 --> 01:41:18.599
name. But both of my parents

3004
01:41:18.600 --> 01:41:20.339
have Spanish names.

3005
01:41:21.700 --> 01:41:23.718
And so that kind of

3006
01:41:23.719 --> 01:41:25.739
like, you know,

3007
01:41:25.740 --> 01:41:28.259
inherit, embracing this

3008
01:41:28.260 --> 01:41:29.679
fictitious Spanish.

3009
01:41:32.670 --> 01:41:34.769
Turns out I'm

3010
01:41:34.770 --> 01:41:37.509
like 1% Portuguese,

3011
01:41:37.510 --> 01:41:39.709
you know, but you know she didn't

3012
01:41:39.710 --> 01:41:41.909
think that, you know she thought she

3013
01:41:41.910 --> 01:41:43.808
was Spanish, that she had Spanish

3014
01:41:43.809 --> 01:41:45.189
in her for years.

3015
01:41:46.480 --> 01:41:48.379
I had that lore passed

3016
01:41:48.380 --> 01:41:50.379
down to me, too, by my grandmother.

3017
01:41:50.380 --> 01:41:52.019
And she told this very fantastical

3018
01:41:52.020 --> 01:41:54.079
story about a Spanish

3019
01:41:54.080 --> 01:41:56.179
conquistador in a beautiful

3020
01:41:56.180 --> 01:41:57.379
Filipina.

3021
01:41:57.380 --> 01:41:59.359
And then I did a DNA test, and it's

3022
01:41:59.360 --> 01:42:01.459
like, zero, European,

3023
01:42:01.460 --> 01:42:02.460
zero. No.

3024
01:42:06.520 --> 01:42:09.199
But that's kind of this like

3025
01:42:09.200 --> 01:42:11.159
embracing of

3026
01:42:11.160 --> 01:42:12.160
the.

3027
01:42:15.250 --> 01:42:17.269
Something that they saw

3028
01:42:17.270 --> 01:42:18.729
was higher than themselves.

3029
01:42:21.809 --> 01:42:23.689
And that's

3030
01:42:23.690 --> 01:42:25.729
a continuing kind of

3031
01:42:25.730 --> 01:42:27.909
dialog and that

3032
01:42:27.910 --> 01:42:30.029
like when I see

3033
01:42:30.030 --> 01:42:31.869
myself kind of still immersing

3034
01:42:31.870 --> 01:42:33.929
myself in that kind of

3035
01:42:33.930 --> 01:42:35.749
idea and yet our

3036
01:42:35.750 --> 01:42:38.048
culture is still producing

3037
01:42:38.049 --> 01:42:39.968
that idea

3038
01:42:39.969 --> 01:42:41.808
and creating

3039
01:42:41.809 --> 01:42:43.849
savages

3040
01:42:43.850 --> 01:42:46.529
and distinctions between people,

3041
01:42:46.530 --> 01:42:48.829
I feel like, oh, it's

3042
01:42:48.830 --> 01:42:49.889
an ongoing task.

3043
01:42:51.230 --> 01:42:53.129
Yeah, yeah, I think a

3044
01:42:53.130 --> 01:42:55.129
lot about the way I was

3045
01:42:55.130 --> 01:42:57.509
assimilated too and how it was also

3046
01:42:57.510 --> 01:42:59.468
taught to us because our parents,

3047
01:42:59.469 --> 01:43:00.308
even though they grew up in the

3048
01:43:00.309 --> 01:43:02.329
Philippines, inherited it

3049
01:43:02.330 --> 01:43:04.548
from their parents there

3050
01:43:04.549 --> 01:43:07.669
as a colony of America.

3051
01:43:07.670 --> 01:43:08.968
And I think about power and

3052
01:43:08.969 --> 01:43:11.069
proximity, you know?

3053
01:43:11.070 --> 01:43:12.888
Like if you do,

3054
01:43:12.889 --> 01:43:14.689
I mean, my education is in like

3055
01:43:14.690 --> 01:43:16.749
European 19th century

3056
01:43:16.750 --> 01:43:18.569
dress, you So, um,

3057
01:43:18.570 --> 01:43:19.570
but.

3058
01:43:21.330 --> 01:43:22.790
Not to say that I don't love it, I

3059
01:43:22.791 --> 01:43:24.669
do, but there is a

3060
01:43:24.670 --> 01:43:26.429
proximity to power in some way.

3061
01:43:26.430 --> 01:43:27.888
And I see that the three of you are

3062
01:43:27.889 --> 01:43:29.909
really pushing against that,

3063
01:43:29.910 --> 01:43:31.449
you know, in your own ways.

3064
01:43:33.730 --> 01:43:34.869
Which I really appreciate.

3065
01:43:39.379 --> 01:43:40.879
I was just going to say we were

3066
01:43:40.880 --> 01:43:42.718
talking about that earlier

3067
01:43:42.719 --> 01:43:44.579
on, well,

3068
01:43:44.580 --> 01:43:46.058
once ago when we were at the studio

3069
01:43:46.059 --> 01:43:47.059
and...

3070
01:43:49.320 --> 01:43:51.239
Understanding kind of this European

3071
01:43:51.240 --> 01:43:52.859
easel painting idea of like how

3072
01:43:52.860 --> 01:43:54.419
things or like that's how I was

3073
01:43:54.420 --> 01:43:56.399
brought up by like just thinking

3074
01:43:56.400 --> 01:43:57.700
about how a painting is

3075
01:43:59.139 --> 01:44:01.019
even successful or what it would

3076
01:44:01.020 --> 01:44:02.419
might have been like in me growing

3077
01:44:02.420 --> 01:44:03.659
up and thinking about well that

3078
01:44:03.660 --> 01:44:04.919
looks like a beautiful painting and

3079
01:44:04.920 --> 01:44:06.798
this isn't and then

3080
01:44:06.799 --> 01:44:08.659
I was thinking about like my

3081
01:44:08.660 --> 01:44:10.339
upbringing and how I my entry point

3082
01:44:10.340 --> 01:44:12.959
to painting was graffiti and

3083
01:44:12.960 --> 01:44:14.919
in the 90s and kind of like

3084
01:44:14.920 --> 01:44:16.839
using that as like a you know kind

3085
01:44:16.840 --> 01:44:18.219
of a foundation to

3086
01:44:20.200 --> 01:44:21.539
approach unconventional ways to

3087
01:44:21.540 --> 01:44:22.779
complete paintings.

3088
01:44:22.780 --> 01:44:23.739
And I don't know if I would have

3089
01:44:23.740 --> 01:44:24.819
ever tried to like.

3090
01:44:27.910 --> 01:44:30.029
Decolonize like the studio that way

3091
01:44:30.030 --> 01:44:31.130
and attack

3092
01:44:32.290 --> 01:44:34.089
Or trying to find another way to

3093
01:44:34.090 --> 01:44:36.109
communicate my experience

3094
01:44:36.110 --> 01:44:38.289
or what was closer to my experience

3095
01:44:38.290 --> 01:44:40.569
in the work so

3096
01:44:40.570 --> 01:44:42.209
That's kind of like my plight and

3097
01:44:42.210 --> 01:44:43.669
just kind of where I'm at right now

3098
01:44:43.670 --> 01:44:45.209
but with everything that I do is

3099
01:44:45.210 --> 01:44:46.629
just kind flipping that on its head

3100
01:44:46.630 --> 01:44:48.509
and and and

3101
01:44:48.510 --> 01:44:51.689
kind of pushing back with

3102
01:44:51.690 --> 01:44:53.409
Pushing back on what I've kind of

3103
01:44:53.410 --> 01:44:54.410
learned

3104
01:44:55.000 --> 01:44:56.520
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

3105
01:44:59.200 --> 01:45:01.379
So, as we've been discussing,

3106
01:45:01.380 --> 01:45:03.039
there's this process of unlearning

3107
01:45:03.040 --> 01:45:04.579
and then relearning the histories

3108
01:45:04.580 --> 01:45:06.339
that were not taught to us, which

3109
01:45:06.340 --> 01:45:07.879
allows us to make room to better

3110
01:45:07.880 --> 01:45:09.999
understand our complex identities

3111
01:45:10.000 --> 01:45:12.479
that are not easy to categorize,

3112
01:45:12.480 --> 01:45:14.179
like what's a Filipino-American?

3113
01:45:14.180 --> 01:45:15.799
What is Filipino- American art?

3114
01:45:18.200 --> 01:45:19.859
All of the artists on this panel

3115
01:45:19.860 --> 01:45:21.679
have done extensive research in

3116
01:45:21.680 --> 01:45:24.599
history, which has informed

3117
01:45:24.600 --> 01:45:26.040
their works, deeply.

3118
01:45:28.990 --> 01:45:30.949
How does your work

3119
01:45:30.950 --> 01:45:32.968
reflect the shared need to

3120
01:45:32.969 --> 01:45:34.829
challenge fixed narratives that

3121
01:45:34.830 --> 01:45:36.129
often leaves to erasure?

3122
01:45:43.330 --> 01:45:45.048
Sorry, Melchon.

3123
01:45:45.049 --> 01:45:46.349
Thank you for always getting it

3124
01:45:46.350 --> 01:45:47.350
started.

3125
01:45:50.980 --> 01:45:52.619
I think, you know.

3126
01:45:56.340 --> 01:45:58.439
I think I'm a very skeptical

3127
01:45:58.440 --> 01:46:00.138
person.

3128
01:46:00.139 --> 01:46:02.798
I think growing

3129
01:46:02.799 --> 01:46:04.919
up, I immigrated

3130
01:46:04.920 --> 01:46:06.879
here when I was a kid with my

3131
01:46:06.880 --> 01:46:07.880
family.

3132
01:46:10.559 --> 01:46:12.679
So it's still sort of

3133
01:46:12.680 --> 01:46:14.239
clear to me that it's sort of a

3134
01:46:14.240 --> 01:46:15.240
shift.

3135
01:46:16.139 --> 01:46:17.139
And

3136
01:46:18.870 --> 01:46:20.689
And then I just basically

3137
01:46:20.690 --> 01:46:23.709
dove into the whole thing.

3138
01:46:23.710 --> 01:46:25.729
And now I think I'm

3139
01:46:25.730 --> 01:46:27.789
thinking through or

3140
01:46:27.790 --> 01:46:30.270
developing sort of tools of,

3141
01:46:31.450 --> 01:46:32.450
I don't know,

3142
01:46:33.469 --> 01:46:36.109
like tools that stem from skepticism

3143
01:46:36.110 --> 01:46:38.749
and a kind of

3144
01:46:38.750 --> 01:46:39.709
way.

3145
01:46:39.710 --> 01:46:41.548
I mean, that paper that I wrote

3146
01:46:41.549 --> 01:46:43.769
about spatial temporality is

3147
01:46:43.770 --> 01:46:45.789
sort of trying to

3148
01:46:45.790 --> 01:46:46.790
use.

3149
01:46:48.130 --> 01:46:50.429
Sort of philosophy or theory to

3150
01:46:50.430 --> 01:46:53.548
have the

3151
01:46:53.549 --> 01:46:55.849
West to limit itself, right?

3152
01:46:55.850 --> 01:46:58.109
To, you know,

3153
01:46:58.110 --> 01:47:00.089
like time and space seems

3154
01:47:00.090 --> 01:47:02.069
so totalizing, right, and it's sort

3155
01:47:02.070 --> 01:47:04.048
of embedded in the

3156
01:47:04.049 --> 01:47:06.308
way of scientific time

3157
01:47:06.309 --> 01:47:08.229
also or modernity, like

3158
01:47:08.230 --> 01:47:09.308
all these things sort of swirl

3159
01:47:09.309 --> 01:47:11.509
together and I think it's

3160
01:47:11.510 --> 01:47:13.349
kind of hard to parse that out.

3161
01:47:13.350 --> 01:47:15.308
So,

3162
01:47:15.309 --> 01:47:17.369
so I've been, I guess, thinking

3163
01:47:17.370 --> 01:47:18.419
and.

3164
01:47:18.420 --> 01:47:21.218
Sort of making

3165
01:47:21.219 --> 01:47:23.339
these sort of narratives or

3166
01:47:23.340 --> 01:47:25.839
stories to explain

3167
01:47:25.840 --> 01:47:30.359
sort of the

3168
01:47:30.360 --> 01:47:32.179
trajectory of the colonial

3169
01:47:32.180 --> 01:47:33.939
mind, I guess.

3170
01:47:33.940 --> 01:47:36.218
So it's easy for you to sort of

3171
01:47:36.219 --> 01:47:37.519
discern, right?

3172
01:47:37.520 --> 01:47:39.699
I mean, there's the whole project

3173
01:47:39.700 --> 01:47:41.519
of decolonizing,

3174
01:47:41.520 --> 01:47:43.879
and I think it's impossible

3175
01:47:43.880 --> 01:47:45.718
to sort of, you

3176
01:47:45.719 --> 01:47:47.819
know, to trace out the contours

3177
01:47:47.820 --> 01:47:48.769
of.

3178
01:47:48.770 --> 01:47:49.829
That influence,

3179
01:47:51.049 --> 01:47:53.069
like a lot of us are both,

3180
01:47:53.070 --> 01:47:55.269
like we've absorbed, so

3181
01:47:55.270 --> 01:47:57.629
I think I'm

3182
01:47:57.630 --> 01:47:59.909
trying to create these tools where

3183
01:47:59.910 --> 01:48:02.069
through these narratives you could

3184
01:48:02.070 --> 01:48:04.089
basically figure

3185
01:48:04.090 --> 01:48:06.109
it out on a case by case

3186
01:48:06.110 --> 01:48:07.609
basis, right? If you know how

3187
01:48:07.610 --> 01:48:09.709
something works, then it's easy to

3188
01:48:09.710 --> 01:48:12.089
tell. It's much easier to tell

3189
01:48:12.090 --> 01:48:13.989
what's in and what's out

3190
01:48:13.990 --> 01:48:15.049
as opposed to.

3191
01:48:16.370 --> 01:48:18.388
Sort of figuring out like these

3192
01:48:18.389 --> 01:48:20.769
ideas of these categories,

3193
01:48:20.770 --> 01:48:23.989
you know, and I

3194
01:48:23.990 --> 01:48:27.329
wanna also push the

3195
01:48:27.330 --> 01:48:28.629
kind of

3196
01:48:33.210 --> 01:48:34.529
I don't know, like a more

3197
01:48:34.530 --> 01:48:37.269
self-conscious way

3198
01:48:37.270 --> 01:48:39.129
of dealing with categories,

3199
01:48:39.130 --> 01:48:40.048
you know?

3200
01:48:40.049 --> 01:48:42.189
And I think this, to be much

3201
01:48:42.190 --> 01:48:43.749
more healthy, right?

3202
01:48:43.750 --> 01:48:45.769
To not take reality as it is,

3203
01:48:45.770 --> 01:48:47.789
right, and I mean, my hot

3204
01:48:47.790 --> 01:48:49.909
take is like, you know,

3205
01:48:49.910 --> 01:48:53.209
entrenched power dominates

3206
01:48:53.210 --> 01:48:55.109
space, but

3207
01:48:55.110 --> 01:48:57.048
it doesn't dominate time,

3208
01:48:57.049 --> 01:48:59.548
unless you're

3209
01:48:59.549 --> 01:49:01.489
made to believe that

3210
01:49:01.490 --> 01:49:03.489
time just runs on.

3211
01:49:03.490 --> 01:49:04.490
Causality.

3212
01:49:06.389 --> 01:49:08.569
And so I wanna push against

3213
01:49:08.570 --> 01:49:09.989
that, right? I want people to

3214
01:49:09.990 --> 01:49:11.808
embrace contingency as

3215
01:49:11.809 --> 01:49:14.229
a way to look at time, right,

3216
01:49:14.230 --> 01:49:16.808
like to think about rupture as

3217
01:49:16.809 --> 01:49:19.209
always being possible,

3218
01:49:19.210 --> 01:49:22.369
as opposed to, you know,

3219
01:49:22.370 --> 01:49:24.388
being, I don't know, being

3220
01:49:24.389 --> 01:49:26.949
sort of encumbered by

3221
01:49:26.950 --> 01:49:29.029
the world that you've

3222
01:49:29.030 --> 01:49:30.869
inherited, this colonial

3223
01:49:30.870 --> 01:49:32.409
world that we've inherited.

3224
01:49:33.590 --> 01:49:34.590
Wow. Yeah.

3225
01:49:37.690 --> 01:49:39.029
Yeah, I perceive things so

3226
01:49:39.030 --> 01:49:40.468
differently after talking to you

3227
01:49:40.469 --> 01:49:41.469
about.

3228
01:49:43.130 --> 01:49:45.269
My idea of time and place

3229
01:49:45.270 --> 01:49:47.669
because I'm understanding

3230
01:49:47.670 --> 01:49:50.829
that even that has

3231
01:49:50.830 --> 01:49:52.469
been colonized in many ways.

3232
01:49:55.000 --> 01:49:56.679
Yeah, everything's made up, or most

3233
01:49:56.680 --> 01:49:57.680
things are made up.

3234
01:50:00.070 --> 01:50:01.989
You know, I think a lot

3235
01:50:01.990 --> 01:50:03.929
of, you know, I think right now it's

3236
01:50:03.930 --> 01:50:05.888
just sort of a battle of realities.

3237
01:50:05.889 --> 01:50:08.189
And I think it's good to

3238
01:50:08.190 --> 01:50:10.249
remind ourselves that,

3239
01:50:10.250 --> 01:50:12.749
you know we can create

3240
01:50:12.750 --> 01:50:14.609
realities, you now,

3241
01:50:14.610 --> 01:50:15.610
together.

3242
01:50:19.120 --> 01:50:20.999
I mean, even I'm just

3243
01:50:21.000 --> 01:50:23.079
thinking about, you

3244
01:50:23.080 --> 01:50:24.819
know, the canvas for me,

3245
01:50:26.020 --> 01:50:27.739
whatever, being a teenager or 20

3246
01:50:27.740 --> 01:50:30.039
years old, it was very

3247
01:50:30.040 --> 01:50:31.999
foreign to me, just like a white

3248
01:50:32.000 --> 01:50:34.119
blank canvas that stretched

3249
01:50:35.420 --> 01:50:37.699
and inventing and creating

3250
01:50:37.700 --> 01:50:39.798
another version of that for myself

3251
01:50:39.799 --> 01:50:41.979
so that I can unpack all

3252
01:50:41.980 --> 01:50:43.119
these things that I'm thinking

3253
01:50:43.120 --> 01:50:44.968
about. Whether it's

3254
01:50:44.969 --> 01:50:47.048
You know, my gesso ground,

3255
01:50:47.049 --> 01:50:48.689
typically you do like a gesso ground

3256
01:50:48.690 --> 01:50:50.449
on canvas, it's white.

3257
01:50:50.450 --> 01:50:53.069
My gesso round consists of

3258
01:50:53.070 --> 01:50:55.349
stucco, typically

3259
01:50:55.350 --> 01:50:57.509
a color,

3260
01:50:57.510 --> 01:51:00.029
latex house paint color,

3261
01:51:00.030 --> 01:51:02.349
and that's what I start with.

3262
01:51:02.350 --> 01:51:03.929
You know? And that feels more at

3263
01:51:03.930 --> 01:51:05.869
home with me, and

3264
01:51:05.870 --> 01:51:08.048
it could also even be like

3265
01:51:08.049 --> 01:51:10.129
this cinder block, you

3266
01:51:10.130 --> 01:51:12.429
know, kind of texture or

3267
01:51:12.430 --> 01:51:13.749
canvas.

3268
01:51:13.750 --> 01:51:14.750
And

3269
01:51:15.650 --> 01:51:17.709
On that surface, I'm able to unpack

3270
01:51:17.710 --> 01:51:19.169
some of the things we need to talk

3271
01:51:19.170 --> 01:51:20.669
about, or some of things that I'm

3272
01:51:20.670 --> 01:51:22.129
thinking about.

3273
01:51:22.130 --> 01:51:23.789
But then I also like parallel it to

3274
01:51:23.790 --> 01:51:25.769
like Los Angeles and this being

3275
01:51:25.770 --> 01:51:27.849
such a diverse city,

3276
01:51:27.850 --> 01:51:29.509
and this is the city I grew up in,

3277
01:51:32.110 --> 01:51:33.729
thinking about my experiences here

3278
01:51:33.730 --> 01:51:35.569
and the loved ones that I, family

3279
01:51:35.570 --> 01:51:36.949
and all that, and just kind of like

3280
01:51:36.950 --> 01:51:38.769
thinking about how that can find

3281
01:51:38.770 --> 01:51:40.689
its way in a collage or how

3282
01:51:40.690 --> 01:51:42.649
I can weave those

3283
01:51:42.650 --> 01:51:44.049
things into.

3284
01:51:46.080 --> 01:51:47.899
Some of those

3285
01:51:47.900 --> 01:51:49.759
into the

3286
01:51:49.760 --> 01:51:51.339
panels that I'm kind of thinking

3287
01:51:51.340 --> 01:51:53.499
about or that I am prepping

3288
01:51:53.500 --> 01:51:55.379
for these kinds

3289
01:51:55.380 --> 01:51:57.259
of unpackings and some

3290
01:51:57.260 --> 01:51:59.699
of the stuff that I don't

3291
01:51:59.700 --> 01:52:01.739
have information for because of

3292
01:52:01.740 --> 01:52:03.839
assimilation or the

3293
01:52:03.840 --> 01:52:08.218
documents being kind

3294
01:52:08.219 --> 01:52:10.239
of lost or whatever and thinking

3295
01:52:10.240 --> 01:52:12.138
about redaction in the

3296
01:52:12.139 --> 01:52:14.399
landscape and graffiti removal

3297
01:52:14.400 --> 01:52:16.798
and. All these other things as

3298
01:52:16.799 --> 01:52:18.659
placeholders for maybe

3299
01:52:18.660 --> 01:52:20.559
discovery later on.

3300
01:52:22.330 --> 01:52:24.468
You know, in visiting you, I got to,

3301
01:52:24.469 --> 01:52:26.369
I feel really privileged I got to

3302
01:52:26.370 --> 01:52:28.329
take a peek at the archive that you

3303
01:52:28.330 --> 01:52:30.669
have as your family archivist

3304
01:52:30.670 --> 01:52:31.670
too.

3305
01:52:32.350 --> 01:52:33.929
Can you maybe, can you talk about

3306
01:52:33.930 --> 01:52:35.529
that? Because it's so interesting to

3307
01:52:35.530 --> 01:52:37.888
see the work of your family

3308
01:52:37.889 --> 01:52:39.770
and then how it's

3309
01:52:41.130 --> 01:52:43.089
so similar in some, like some of the

3310
01:52:43.090 --> 01:52:44.989
imagery is echoed

3311
01:52:44.990 --> 01:52:47.229
in your work, unintentionally even.

3312
01:52:47.230 --> 01:52:49.149
Yeah, so like my father's

3313
01:52:49.150 --> 01:52:51.229
side, not

3314
01:52:51.230 --> 01:52:52.589
that I knew this growing up, but

3315
01:52:52.590 --> 01:52:54.229
they all kind of drew and painted

3316
01:52:54.230 --> 01:52:56.249
and sculpted, and my father was

3317
01:52:56.250 --> 01:52:57.250
a photographer,

3318
01:52:58.490 --> 01:53:00.308
and he would develop his own

3319
01:53:00.309 --> 01:53:02.109
black and white film in his

3320
01:53:02.110 --> 01:53:04.249
bathroom, and my grandfather

3321
01:53:04.250 --> 01:53:06.089
painted and drew

3322
01:53:06.090 --> 01:53:07.968
and sculpt it, and all of my

3323
01:53:07.969 --> 01:53:10.048
uncles, even my cousin that's 20

3324
01:53:10.049 --> 01:53:11.909
years older than me, maybe 25

3325
01:53:11.910 --> 01:53:13.968
years older, was drawing and

3326
01:53:13.969 --> 01:53:14.969
printing.

3327
01:53:17.340 --> 01:53:19.259
More recently, growing

3328
01:53:19.260 --> 01:53:20.779
up, I didn't know that this was like

3329
01:53:20.780 --> 01:53:22.099
a thing, like they were, we were

3330
01:53:22.100 --> 01:53:23.999
sharing ideas and

3331
01:53:24.000 --> 01:53:25.138
drawings and paintings.

3332
01:53:25.139 --> 01:53:26.239
It wasn't like that. It was very

3333
01:53:26.240 --> 01:53:28.159
like, they were older

3334
01:53:28.160 --> 01:53:29.679
than me and they were I knew kind of

3335
01:53:29.680 --> 01:53:31.298
that they were interested in art,

3336
01:53:31.299 --> 01:53:32.879
but not at like what level.

3337
01:53:32.880 --> 01:53:34.819
I'm not, I wasn't sure.

3338
01:53:34.820 --> 01:53:36.519
And it's not up until recent where

3339
01:53:36.520 --> 01:53:37.679
I'm starting to receive their

3340
01:53:37.680 --> 01:53:39.499
archives of paintings and

3341
01:53:39.500 --> 01:53:40.500
photos and

3342
01:53:42.030 --> 01:53:44.849
prints, like my cousin was

3343
01:53:44.850 --> 01:53:46.829
part of La Raza Soap Screen

3344
01:53:46.830 --> 01:53:48.849
in San Francisco,

3345
01:53:48.850 --> 01:53:50.989
and he printed and made

3346
01:53:50.990 --> 01:53:53.029
work there from 1978 to

3347
01:53:53.030 --> 01:53:54.949
1982, and I'm receiving

3348
01:53:54.950 --> 01:53:56.989
all this kind of, his archive

3349
01:53:56.990 --> 01:54:00.009
with film, photos,

3350
01:54:00.010 --> 01:54:01.909
drawings, finished

3351
01:54:01.910 --> 01:54:03.829
prints, test

3352
01:54:03.830 --> 01:54:04.829
prints, all these things.

3353
01:54:04.830 --> 01:54:06.509
So, um...

3354
01:54:08.030 --> 01:54:09.989
This is all protest work,

3355
01:54:09.990 --> 01:54:12.289
like a lot of it was protest work

3356
01:54:12.290 --> 01:54:14.129
and community organization

3357
01:54:14.130 --> 01:54:16.129
and bulletins

3358
01:54:16.130 --> 01:54:17.829
and things like that.

3359
01:54:17.830 --> 01:54:20.369
So, I mean, it's essentially if we,

3360
01:54:20.370 --> 01:54:21.548
you know, right now I have a show up

3361
01:54:21.549 --> 01:54:23.209
that I curated with all this work

3362
01:54:23.210 --> 01:54:25.269
together at Charlie James

3363
01:54:25.270 --> 01:54:27.249
Gallery, but essentially

3364
01:54:27.250 --> 01:54:28.388
there's like, you need these

3365
01:54:28.389 --> 01:54:30.609
connections and

3366
01:54:30.610 --> 01:54:32.968
the collective at La Raza

3367
01:54:32.969 --> 01:54:35.289
Silk Screen and graphics

3368
01:54:35.290 --> 01:54:36.079
were.

3369
01:54:36.080 --> 01:54:37.218
Essentially talking about the same

3370
01:54:37.219 --> 01:54:38.739
things we're talking about today, or

3371
01:54:38.740 --> 01:54:40.179
I'm talking about today and a lot of

3372
01:54:40.180 --> 01:54:42.199
artists are talking about today,

3373
01:54:42.200 --> 01:54:44.379
so it's

3374
01:54:44.380 --> 01:54:45.679
interesting to see all those that

3375
01:54:45.680 --> 01:54:47.058
kind of like those connections and

3376
01:54:47.059 --> 01:54:48.379
those that connective tissue and the

3377
01:54:48.380 --> 01:54:50.179
through line through all of it,

3378
01:54:50.180 --> 01:54:51.180
especially with my family

3379
01:54:54.519 --> 01:54:56.279
because you see some of the, a lot

3380
01:54:56.280 --> 01:54:58.339
of the things that they're thinking

3381
01:54:58.340 --> 01:55:00.058
about, I was thinking, I'm thinking

3382
01:55:00.059 --> 01:55:00.839
about.

3383
01:55:00.840 --> 01:55:02.058
And that's why I wanted to make this

3384
01:55:02.059 --> 01:55:04.239
show happen and

3385
01:55:04.240 --> 01:55:05.459
show those kinds of.

3386
01:55:06.580 --> 01:55:08.679
Those connections in, and it's

3387
01:55:08.680 --> 01:55:10.939
kind of haunting, you know,

3388
01:55:10.940 --> 01:55:12.779
and you hang the work next to each

3389
01:55:12.780 --> 01:55:14.159
other, and you know like it's in

3390
01:55:14.160 --> 01:55:15.160
proximity,

3391
01:55:16.860 --> 01:55:18.779
but what I suspected,

3392
01:55:18.780 --> 01:55:20.099
because like I told you, it wasn't

3393
01:55:20.100 --> 01:55:21.319
something that they were feeding to

3394
01:55:21.320 --> 01:55:22.699
me, and they're like, hey, you need

3395
01:55:22.700 --> 01:55:24.718
to, you now, let me go for

3396
01:55:24.719 --> 01:55:26.298
a studio visit, it was very, they

3397
01:55:26.299 --> 01:55:27.399
were doing their thing, they were

3398
01:55:27.400 --> 01:55:29.379
older, and all this stuff is now

3399
01:55:29.380 --> 01:55:31.189
coming back to me.

3400
01:55:31.190 --> 01:55:32.649
And it's kind of, you know, you're

3401
01:55:32.650 --> 01:55:33.929
looking at the images, you're

3402
01:55:33.930 --> 01:55:35.968
unpacking the archives, literally

3403
01:55:35.969 --> 01:55:37.849
like banana boxes full of

3404
01:55:37.850 --> 01:55:39.409
this stuff, and you're like, wow,

3405
01:55:39.410 --> 01:55:40.909
this is the same stuff that I'm

3406
01:55:40.910 --> 01:55:42.249
doing now.

3407
01:55:42.250 --> 01:55:43.649
And it some of the same things we're

3408
01:55:43.650 --> 01:55:44.650
talking about now.

3409
01:55:46.090 --> 01:55:47.888
Pretty powerful.

3410
01:55:47.889 --> 01:55:49.548
Mary Rose.

3411
01:55:49.549 --> 01:55:50.770
What's the question again?

3412
01:55:55.070 --> 01:55:57.109
How does your work reflect

3413
01:55:57.110 --> 01:55:59.069
a shared need to challenge

3414
01:55:59.070 --> 01:56:00.929
fixed narratives that often leads

3415
01:56:00.930 --> 01:56:01.930
to erasure?

3416
01:56:08.620 --> 01:56:11.558
Well, I use

3417
01:56:11.559 --> 01:56:13.659
the material that

3418
01:56:13.660 --> 01:56:14.660
exists.

3419
01:56:15.820 --> 01:56:18.119
And what I do with it is then

3420
01:56:18.120 --> 01:56:20.359
I

3421
01:56:20.360 --> 01:56:21.138
subvert it.

3422
01:56:21.139 --> 01:56:22.638
I change it.

3423
01:56:22.639 --> 01:56:25.099
So I re-present it,

3424
01:56:25.100 --> 01:56:26.139
and so.

3425
01:56:29.310 --> 01:56:31.289
If it just has

3426
01:56:31.290 --> 01:56:32.290
been.

3427
01:56:33.850 --> 01:56:36.929
Something I have.

3428
01:56:39.870 --> 01:56:41.509
Almost like a visual language for

3429
01:56:41.510 --> 01:56:42.308
me.

3430
01:56:42.309 --> 01:56:44.249
And it's kind of a.

3431
01:56:46.710 --> 01:56:48.249
It's kind of a difficult place,

3432
01:56:48.250 --> 01:56:49.329
because then it's like.

3433
01:56:52.040 --> 01:56:54.718
Why are you using what's

3434
01:56:54.719 --> 01:56:56.379
already kind of presented?

3435
01:56:57.559 --> 01:56:59.519
That's not like, it's

3436
01:56:59.520 --> 01:57:01.439
almost like taking a colonial

3437
01:57:01.440 --> 01:57:03.558
position, right?

3438
01:57:03.559 --> 01:57:05.479
But what I'm trying to do is

3439
01:57:05.480 --> 01:57:07.839
that we understand

3440
01:57:07.840 --> 01:57:09.699
or we've been encountered

3441
01:57:09.700 --> 01:57:11.798
by those materials,

3442
01:57:11.799 --> 01:57:13.759
and then what I am trying to show

3443
01:57:13.760 --> 01:57:15.879
is that through those

3444
01:57:15.880 --> 01:57:17.839
same materials, through the

3445
01:57:17.840 --> 01:57:19.299
changes that I make with them.

3446
01:57:20.590 --> 01:57:22.329
You'll have a different experience

3447
01:57:22.330 --> 01:57:24.209
or you'll maybe be

3448
01:57:24.210 --> 01:57:25.210
made aware.

3449
01:57:27.219 --> 01:57:28.219
This is happening.

3450
01:57:29.860 --> 01:57:31.779
Yeah, I have that, you know,

3451
01:57:31.780 --> 01:57:33.879
talking about with Miljohn,

3452
01:57:33.880 --> 01:57:35.718
the perception of time, and

3453
01:57:35.719 --> 01:57:37.239
for you, this perception of

3454
01:57:37.240 --> 01:57:39.298
materials, everyday things too,

3455
01:57:39.299 --> 01:57:40.959
and then you understand a history

3456
01:57:40.960 --> 01:57:42.919
that is deeper,

3457
01:57:42.920 --> 01:57:45.499
and then, you can't see

3458
01:57:45.500 --> 01:57:46.500
it the same.

3459
01:57:47.880 --> 01:57:49.040
Yeah, I hope so.

3460
01:57:52.709 --> 01:57:55.308
Can you discuss

3461
01:57:55.309 --> 01:57:57.269
how in your

3462
01:57:57.270 --> 01:57:59.009
memories, your either personal or

3463
01:57:59.010 --> 01:58:01.269
collective familial memories,

3464
01:58:01.270 --> 01:58:03.289
how they've influenced your

3465
01:58:03.290 --> 01:58:05.289
artistic practice and the

3466
01:58:05.290 --> 01:58:06.290
narratives you choose?

3467
01:58:10.900 --> 01:58:12.379
We'll start the other direction.

3468
01:58:14.170 --> 01:58:15.170
That was very gross.

3469
01:58:16.500 --> 01:58:18.359
I think for me, I might have

3470
01:58:18.360 --> 01:58:20.339
already sort of said this, but

3471
01:58:20.340 --> 01:58:22.519
when something is

3472
01:58:22.520 --> 01:58:24.779
in

3473
01:58:24.780 --> 01:58:27.239
the collective memory that

3474
01:58:27.240 --> 01:58:29.339
is also in

3475
01:58:29.340 --> 01:58:31.599
the personal, then I'm interested.

3476
01:58:33.180 --> 01:58:34.819
So for instance,

3477
01:58:35.960 --> 01:58:38.199
I encountered these political

3478
01:58:38.200 --> 01:58:40.359
cartoons that were

3479
01:58:40.360 --> 01:58:42.259
created during the

3480
01:58:42.260 --> 01:58:43.638
period of the Philippine-American

3481
01:58:43.639 --> 01:58:44.819
War.

3482
01:58:44.820 --> 01:58:47.179
And those cartoons really

3483
01:58:47.180 --> 01:58:49.119
difficult to look at, and

3484
01:58:49.120 --> 01:58:51.239
yet the content

3485
01:58:51.240 --> 01:58:52.819
of them seemed

3486
01:58:54.380 --> 01:58:56.979
like they were

3487
01:58:56.980 --> 01:58:59.058
anchoring some

3488
01:58:59.059 --> 01:59:01.199
ideas that I

3489
01:59:01.200 --> 01:59:03.298
personally felt, and I've also seen

3490
01:59:03.299 --> 01:59:05.239
other people feel, and

3491
01:59:05.240 --> 01:59:06.919
so it felt like that was something

3492
01:59:06.920 --> 01:59:09.138
that I needed to investigate and

3493
01:59:09.139 --> 01:59:10.940
learn more about, because.

3494
01:59:14.280 --> 01:59:16.459
You know, I

3495
01:59:16.460 --> 01:59:19.379
just see repeated ideas

3496
01:59:19.380 --> 01:59:21.739
for

3497
01:59:21.740 --> 01:59:23.558
a

3498
01:59:23.559 --> 01:59:25.659
lot of people to need

3499
01:59:25.660 --> 01:59:27.699
to really

3500
01:59:27.700 --> 01:59:29.459
stand up for their existence.

3501
01:59:30.540 --> 01:59:32.798
And why is that so?

3502
01:59:32.799 --> 01:59:34.798
You know we're all human,

3503
01:59:34.799 --> 01:59:36.039
and it's because of these

3504
01:59:36.040 --> 01:59:37.798
constructs.

3505
01:59:37.799 --> 01:59:40.099
And so when that gets

3506
01:59:40.100 --> 01:59:43.119
coupled with

3507
01:59:43.120 --> 01:59:44.120
personal.

3508
01:59:45.010 --> 01:59:46.010
I'm interested.

3509
01:59:49.830 --> 01:59:52.009
I was just thinking about, in

3510
01:59:52.010 --> 01:59:53.409
the work that I make, I think about

3511
01:59:53.410 --> 01:59:54.489
my mother a lot

3512
02:00:00.050 --> 02:00:02.249
This country and

3513
02:00:02.250 --> 02:00:04.229
America or Los Angeles

3514
02:00:04.230 --> 02:00:06.129
and it's kind of like how

3515
02:00:06.130 --> 02:00:07.769
I, you know, I'm connected to that

3516
02:00:07.770 --> 02:00:09.909
because it was, it's something where

3517
02:00:09.910 --> 02:00:12.129
I could only imagine like for

3518
02:00:12.130 --> 02:00:14.209
her it was something

3519
02:00:14.210 --> 02:00:16.049
that she was trying every day

3520
02:00:16.050 --> 02:00:17.949
to understand and

3521
02:00:17.950 --> 02:00:19.929
I'm kind of right there

3522
02:00:19.930 --> 02:00:23.169
with her at times, you now, and

3523
02:00:23.170 --> 02:00:25.229
you know she was kind of

3524
02:00:25.230 --> 02:00:27.189
disenchanted later on in her life

3525
02:00:27.190 --> 02:00:28.349
for just thinking about certain

3526
02:00:28.350 --> 02:00:29.849
things because she was...

3527
02:00:30.880 --> 02:00:32.819
She was, you know,

3528
02:00:32.820 --> 02:00:34.459
I would drop her off at the federal

3529
02:00:34.460 --> 02:00:35.839
building here in downtown Los

3530
02:00:35.840 --> 02:00:37.759
Angeles and pick her up at

3531
02:00:37.760 --> 02:00:39.319
night and she was cleaning the

3532
02:00:39.320 --> 02:00:41.079
courtrooms there.

3533
02:00:41.080 --> 02:00:43.159
And you know I

3534
02:00:43.160 --> 02:00:44.639
don't even imagine that she thought

3535
02:00:44.640 --> 02:00:45.839
that that was something that was

3536
02:00:45.840 --> 02:00:47.479
gonna be in her life when she came

3537
02:00:47.480 --> 02:00:48.599
here.

3538
02:00:48.600 --> 02:00:50.779
And I think about that experience

3539
02:00:50.780 --> 02:00:52.599
and how it can relate to

3540
02:00:52.600 --> 02:00:53.799
so many other people's,

3541
02:00:55.940 --> 02:00:57.879
you know just experience

3542
02:00:57.880 --> 02:00:59.099
or like there may be just kind of

3543
02:00:59.100 --> 02:01:01.119
this loose thought that they were.

3544
02:01:01.120 --> 02:01:02.419
I'm gonna come to this country, or

3545
02:01:02.420 --> 02:01:03.699
it was gonna be about a certain

3546
02:01:03.700 --> 02:01:05.179
thing, or not that they were gonna

3547
02:01:05.180 --> 02:01:06.619
rule the world by just coming here

3548
02:01:06.620 --> 02:01:07.959
and making a bunch of money, but

3549
02:01:07.960 --> 02:01:11.179
just kind of coming here to find a

3550
02:01:11.180 --> 02:01:13.879
decent kind of quality of life.

3551
02:01:13.880 --> 02:01:15.839
And I think,

3552
02:01:15.840 --> 02:01:17.279
like I mentioned, it's an expensive

3553
02:01:17.280 --> 02:01:19.339
place to be, and

3554
02:01:19.340 --> 02:01:20.899
I think that she understood that,

3555
02:01:20.900 --> 02:01:22.859
and I'm still kind of, I think

3556
02:01:22.860 --> 02:01:23.719
about that a lot.

3557
02:01:23.720 --> 02:01:25.119
And in the work that I make, I try

3558
02:01:25.120 --> 02:01:26.939
to like find those parallels

3559
02:01:26.940 --> 02:01:29.169
of like, those

3560
02:01:29.170 --> 02:01:31.769
kinds of versions of

3561
02:01:31.770 --> 02:01:33.629
maybe what she was experiencing

3562
02:01:33.630 --> 02:01:35.509
and what I'm experiencing and kind

3563
02:01:35.510 --> 02:01:37.369
of like place that into the

3564
02:01:37.370 --> 02:01:38.370
work.

3565
02:01:39.470 --> 02:01:41.410
And a lot of it comes from just,

3566
02:01:42.590 --> 02:01:44.549
because she's no longer with

3567
02:01:44.550 --> 02:01:46.549
us, but thinking about my

3568
02:01:46.550 --> 02:01:48.789
experience with her and

3569
02:01:48.790 --> 02:01:50.289
the things that she would talk about

3570
02:01:50.290 --> 02:01:52.469
and thinking about the

3571
02:01:52.470 --> 02:01:53.629
things that she said in her

3572
02:01:53.630 --> 02:01:54.630
observations and stuff.

3573
02:02:00.740 --> 02:02:01.740
Um.

3574
02:02:04.060 --> 02:02:06.239
So, yeah,

3575
02:02:06.240 --> 02:02:08.919
I have this indelible memory.

3576
02:02:08.920 --> 02:02:11.019
And I think it was the most intense

3577
02:02:11.020 --> 02:02:13.099
memory I have

3578
02:02:13.100 --> 02:02:14.959
growing up in the Philippines.

3579
02:02:16.720 --> 02:02:18.579
And basically it's,

3580
02:02:18.580 --> 02:02:20.620
as a kid I experienced the sublime.

3581
02:02:23.790 --> 02:02:24.790
Lucky.

3582
02:02:27.000 --> 02:02:28.879
We were doing this procession during

3583
02:02:28.880 --> 02:02:31.799
Holy Week in Keapo.

3584
02:02:31.800 --> 02:02:33.499
And at the end of the procession,

3585
02:02:33.500 --> 02:02:35.359
you go and

3586
02:02:35.360 --> 02:02:37.919
you kiss the

3587
02:02:37.920 --> 02:02:39.959
wooden feet of the black Nazarene.

3588
02:02:41.060 --> 02:02:42.059
Wow, you did that?

3589
02:02:42.060 --> 02:02:43.269
You actually did that.

3590
02:02:43.270 --> 02:02:45.089
Yeah, and I can't, you know, like I

3591
02:02:45.090 --> 02:02:46.529
think about it all the time, just

3592
02:02:46.530 --> 02:02:48.509
sort of the feeling of it.

3593
02:02:55.670 --> 02:02:57.869
I think that's my memory

3594
02:02:57.870 --> 02:02:59.749
that kind of influences my

3595
02:02:59.750 --> 02:03:02.289
work, but I don't know how it

3596
02:03:02.290 --> 02:03:02.719
does.

3597
02:03:02.720 --> 02:03:04.319
I mean, it's crazy.

3598
02:03:04.320 --> 02:03:06.459
I mean that is my,

3599
02:03:06.460 --> 02:03:07.460
like,

3600
02:03:09.180 --> 02:03:11.199
imagined, like what I wish was my

3601
02:03:11.200 --> 02:03:12.299
memory. Do you know what I mean?

3602
02:03:12.300 --> 02:03:14.239
Like as a person born

3603
02:03:14.240 --> 02:03:15.240
here,

3604
02:03:16.380 --> 02:03:18.359
like and then you just, you know,

3605
02:03:18.360 --> 02:03:20.699
being, do you know I mean like that

3606
02:03:20.700 --> 02:03:22.579
you got to do this festival

3607
02:03:22.580 --> 02:03:24.519
and kiss the feet,

3608
02:03:24.520 --> 02:03:26.259
you it like that is like when you

3609
02:03:26.260 --> 02:03:28.139
said, I knew where

3610
02:03:28.140 --> 02:03:29.799
it was going and I was like, oh my

3611
02:03:29.800 --> 02:03:32.049
gosh, that's like an imagined.

3612
02:03:32.050 --> 02:03:33.909
Memory I wish I had,

3613
02:03:33.910 --> 02:03:36.009
but it's because I

3614
02:03:36.010 --> 02:03:37.049
didn't grow up there.

3615
02:03:39.880 --> 02:03:41.799
So it's amazing you have that in

3616
02:03:41.800 --> 02:03:42.899
real life.

3617
02:03:42.900 --> 02:03:43.900
Thank you. Bye.

3618
02:03:45.910 --> 02:03:46.910
Could still go.

3619
02:03:48.300 --> 02:03:49.400
Yeah, we'll go together.

3620
02:03:50.900 --> 02:03:52.419
All of us.

3621
02:03:52.420 --> 02:03:53.420
Bucket list. Yeah, there we go.

3622
02:03:55.880 --> 02:03:57.959
I think we have, okay,

3623
02:03:57.960 --> 02:03:58.960
one final question.

3624
02:04:00.360 --> 02:04:01.399
Okay, okay.

3625
02:04:01.400 --> 02:04:03.160
I think that we have to end.

3626
02:04:04.460 --> 02:04:06.539
Okay, thank you.

3627
02:04:06.540 --> 02:04:08.599
So that's it for my questions.

3628
02:04:08.600 --> 02:04:10.759
And I am happy

3629
02:04:10.760 --> 02:04:12.799
to open

3630
02:04:12.800 --> 02:04:14.679
it up to the floor to any

3631
02:04:14.680 --> 02:04:16.619
guests here who have questions

3632
02:04:16.620 --> 02:04:18.539
for our three amazing

3633
02:04:18.540 --> 02:04:19.540
artists.

3634
02:04:29.830 --> 02:04:31.389
Hi, I'm Kiara.

3635
02:04:32.390 --> 02:04:34.129
So I have two questions.

3636
02:04:34.130 --> 02:04:35.709
So the first question is,

3637
02:04:37.290 --> 02:04:39.509
so like as a Filipino-American, how

3638
02:04:39.510 --> 02:04:41.389
do you navigate being

3639
02:04:41.390 --> 02:04:43.009
in the art world?

3640
02:04:43.010 --> 02:04:45.109
And my second question,

3641
02:04:45.110 --> 02:04:47.489
so as a filipino-american emerging

3642
02:04:47.490 --> 02:04:49.389
artist, I know that growing

3643
02:04:49.390 --> 02:04:51.029
up in a filippino family, we have a

3644
02:04:51.030 --> 02:04:52.929
lot of family members that are like

3645
02:04:52.930 --> 02:04:54.909
nurses and in the medical

3646
02:04:54.910 --> 02:04:56.889
field and people

3647
02:04:56.890 --> 02:04:58.109
in our community.

3648
02:04:58.110 --> 02:05:00.169
How did you push yourself to

3649
02:05:00.170 --> 02:05:01.650
be an established artist?

3650
02:05:03.330 --> 02:05:04.330
Good questions.

3651
02:05:06.620 --> 02:05:07.869
All right. Let's start.

3652
02:05:07.870 --> 02:05:08.870
Yeah.

3653
02:05:09.670 --> 02:05:10.670
Um,

3654
02:05:11.710 --> 02:05:13.869
well, I

3655
02:05:13.870 --> 02:05:15.809
didn't listen to my dad,

3656
02:05:15.810 --> 02:05:17.729
so he wanted me

3657
02:05:17.730 --> 02:05:19.549
to go into architecture and

3658
02:05:19.550 --> 02:05:21.409
something pragmatic and

3659
02:05:21.410 --> 02:05:23.249
I just kind of, I

3660
02:05:23.250 --> 02:05:25.129
just knew I couldn't do

3661
02:05:25.130 --> 02:05:26.709
anything but make art.

3662
02:05:26.710 --> 02:05:27.710
So,

3663
02:05:29.370 --> 02:05:32.249
and navigating the

3664
02:05:32.250 --> 02:05:34.349
art world, I'm not

3665
02:05:34.350 --> 02:05:35.870
a good person to ask.

3666
02:05:38.280 --> 02:05:40.119
I came, when I was going

3667
02:05:40.120 --> 02:05:42.279
to school, it was,

3668
02:05:42.280 --> 02:05:44.479
there was no,

3669
02:05:44.480 --> 02:05:46.319
even when we had slide

3670
02:05:46.320 --> 02:05:47.459
lectures and things,

3671
02:05:48.540 --> 02:05:50.699
the people that were shown were from

3672
02:05:50.700 --> 02:05:52.559
the Western canon, there were

3673
02:05:52.560 --> 02:05:54.479
hardly even any

3674
02:05:54.480 --> 02:05:56.519
women shown in the slides

3675
02:05:56.520 --> 02:05:58.619
and the work that we saw.

3676
02:05:58.620 --> 02:06:00.539
And so I think that the engagement

3677
02:06:00.540 --> 02:06:03.039
now is much better, and

3678
02:06:03.040 --> 02:06:05.160
also the fact that there's

3679
02:06:06.740 --> 02:06:09.039
exhibitions that are featuring some

3680
02:06:09.040 --> 02:06:10.479
Filipino-American artists.

3681
02:06:11.900 --> 02:06:13.719
UCLA Hammer did the

3682
02:06:13.720 --> 02:06:16.459
David Mandela, Pasitibod.

3683
02:06:16.460 --> 02:06:17.999
I think that those are all really

3684
02:06:18.000 --> 02:06:19.000
great.

3685
02:06:22.770 --> 02:06:24.849
Just opportunities now that

3686
02:06:24.850 --> 02:06:26.169
seem to be opening up other

3687
02:06:26.170 --> 02:06:28.689
opportunities for Filipino

3688
02:06:28.690 --> 02:06:29.690
artists.

3689
02:06:30.390 --> 02:06:31.789
I think it was really just really

3690
02:06:31.790 --> 02:06:33.150
hard for me to navigate.

3691
02:06:34.490 --> 02:06:36.329
I did not want to be pigeonholed.

3692
02:06:38.600 --> 02:06:40.879
I purposely made work that

3693
02:06:40.880 --> 02:06:43.319
did not feature

3694
02:06:43.320 --> 02:06:45.219
representations or figurations.

3695
02:06:46.220 --> 02:06:47.939
But I think that that's more open

3696
02:06:47.940 --> 02:06:49.399
now.

3697
02:06:49.400 --> 02:06:51.259
So, you know, maybe Patrick

3698
02:06:51.260 --> 02:06:52.260
has more.

3699
02:06:53.600 --> 02:06:55.659
You know, I'm kind

3700
02:06:55.660 --> 02:06:57.819
of like, I work

3701
02:06:57.820 --> 02:06:59.679
really hard and

3702
02:06:59.680 --> 02:07:01.999
I really try to

3703
02:07:02.000 --> 02:07:04.019
not worry about the fact

3704
02:07:04.020 --> 02:07:05.979
that if an opportunity

3705
02:07:05.980 --> 02:07:08.759
isn't given to me, I

3706
02:07:08.760 --> 02:07:10.979
I find another one.

3707
02:07:10.980 --> 02:07:12.799
I found that actually

3708
02:07:12.800 --> 02:07:14.859
I was seen

3709
02:07:14.860 --> 02:07:17.099
more like in New York.

3710
02:07:18.240 --> 02:07:20.779
And once I got a Guggenheim,

3711
02:07:20.780 --> 02:07:22.959
then LA goes, oh,

3712
02:07:22.960 --> 02:07:24.159
is she here?

3713
02:07:24.160 --> 02:07:26.679
But like I never really

3714
02:07:26.680 --> 02:07:28.759
got that much attention

3715
02:07:28.760 --> 02:07:31.099
until I got the Gugginheim.

3716
02:07:31.100 --> 02:07:32.979
And that was from people that I

3717
02:07:32.980 --> 02:07:35.099
don't even know in New York,

3718
02:07:35.100 --> 02:07:37.279
right? So I think you just

3719
02:07:37.280 --> 02:07:38.280
don't give up.

3720
02:07:39.780 --> 02:07:41.679
Keep doing it, do it because you

3721
02:07:41.680 --> 02:07:42.680
want to.

3722
02:07:43.880 --> 02:07:45.659
That's really important because

3723
02:07:45.660 --> 02:07:48.479
it's, because it, for me anyway,

3724
02:07:48.480 --> 02:07:50.399
I do it because I need to and I

3725
02:07:50.400 --> 02:07:52.359
want to and not for something

3726
02:07:52.360 --> 02:07:53.360
outside of that.

3727
02:07:56.920 --> 02:07:59.359
So, growing up, it was

3728
02:07:59.360 --> 02:08:01.519
really, my mother didn't

3729
02:08:01.520 --> 02:08:03.459
really understand what I was

3730
02:08:03.460 --> 02:08:04.499
doing.

3731
02:08:04.500 --> 02:08:05.799
My father did.

3732
02:08:05.800 --> 02:08:07.099
And he didn't tell me that he did.

3733
02:08:07.100 --> 02:08:09.319
He just was like, kind of

3734
02:08:09.320 --> 02:08:10.619
like putting materials, like, you

3735
02:08:10.620 --> 02:08:12.639
know, here's some pens from work and

3736
02:08:12.640 --> 02:08:14.639
here's computer paper and

3737
02:08:14.640 --> 02:08:16.259
yeah, keep on drawing.

3738
02:08:16.260 --> 02:08:18.179
And I remember asking him, like

3739
02:08:18.180 --> 02:08:20.139
oh, draw a dog and I would

3740
02:08:20.140 --> 02:08:22.039
draw a do or whatever, like we would

3741
02:08:22.040 --> 02:08:23.180
kind of draw together at times.

3742
02:08:24.470 --> 02:08:26.349
And so he was there to support

3743
02:08:26.350 --> 02:08:27.389
me. I'm not saying that my mother

3744
02:08:27.390 --> 02:08:29.209
wasn't, but he was there, so I

3745
02:08:29.210 --> 02:08:31.269
was lucky enough to have that.

3746
02:08:31.270 --> 02:08:32.370
And then...

3747
02:08:35.620 --> 02:08:37.879
I don't know, like,

3748
02:08:37.880 --> 02:08:39.219
so this kind of connects to the

3749
02:08:39.220 --> 02:08:41.019
present, but it was kind of more

3750
02:08:41.020 --> 02:08:42.639
autotelic. It just had to happen,

3751
02:08:42.640 --> 02:08:44.659
you know, and it was an expression,

3752
02:08:44.660 --> 02:08:45.659
or like, you now, just something

3753
02:08:45.660 --> 02:08:46.940
that I wanted to do.

3754
02:08:49.340 --> 02:08:51.299
And so moving forward as

3755
02:08:51.300 --> 02:08:53.359
a kid to a teen, and I

3756
02:08:53.360 --> 02:08:55.179
found ways to make it work,

3757
02:08:55.180 --> 02:08:57.119
I guess, or like figure

3758
02:08:57.120 --> 02:08:59.299
out how I can get a job

3759
02:08:59.300 --> 02:09:01.259
doing art, or

3760
02:09:01.260 --> 02:09:03.139
I was always thinking

3761
02:09:03.140 --> 02:09:04.939
about it and trying to like.

3762
02:09:04.940 --> 02:09:05.999
Because I knew it would be hard

3763
02:09:06.000 --> 02:09:08.399
later on to try to

3764
02:09:08.400 --> 02:09:10.559
place myself or

3765
02:09:10.560 --> 02:09:12.459
explain myself to try

3766
02:09:12.460 --> 02:09:14.359
to like,

3767
02:09:14.360 --> 02:09:15.339
well, what are you going to do?

3768
02:09:15.340 --> 02:09:16.319
You're going to make art? That's

3769
02:09:16.320 --> 02:09:18.179
crazy. Like, you don't go to

3770
02:09:18.180 --> 02:09:20.739
an art school or whatever.

3771
02:09:20.740 --> 02:09:22.199
That's, so I was trying to find ways

3772
02:09:22.200 --> 02:09:24.759
to find

3773
02:09:24.760 --> 02:09:26.579
my way and get

3774
02:09:26.580 --> 02:09:28.979
those, I

3775
02:09:28.980 --> 02:09:29.879
don't know if I was looking for

3776
02:09:29.880 --> 02:09:31.559
recognition or pats on the back, but

3777
02:09:31.560 --> 02:09:32.560
it was.

3778
02:09:33.400 --> 02:09:35.079
My pops already knew, like, he was,

3779
02:09:35.080 --> 02:09:36.699
like solid.

3780
02:09:36.700 --> 02:09:38.679
My mom, not so much, but you know,

3781
02:09:38.680 --> 02:09:40.099
it's not a big deal.

3782
02:09:40.100 --> 02:09:42.559
It's just moving

3783
02:09:42.560 --> 02:09:43.879
forward, it was just something,

3784
02:09:45.900 --> 02:09:47.819
I was lucky enough to have that

3785
02:09:47.820 --> 02:09:48.939
support early on.

3786
02:09:48.940 --> 02:09:50.599
And then through my peers and

3787
02:09:50.600 --> 02:09:52.879
friends in

3788
02:09:52.880 --> 02:09:54.959
making graffiti and other artworks

3789
02:09:54.960 --> 02:09:56.319
and organizing shows, that was like

3790
02:09:56.320 --> 02:09:58.619
a whole nother support system.

3791
02:09:58.620 --> 02:09:59.620
But.

3792
02:10:01.710 --> 02:10:03.849
I don't know, it's this,

3793
02:10:03.850 --> 02:10:05.789
you know, do

3794
02:10:05.790 --> 02:10:07.829
it for yourself for sure, and then

3795
02:10:07.830 --> 02:10:10.209
if it has to happen, it has happen,

3796
02:10:10.210 --> 02:10:12.109
and there's ways, or you know

3797
02:10:12.110 --> 02:10:13.829
I've, in the past I've had to

3798
02:10:13.830 --> 02:10:15.749
support myself, making the

3799
02:10:15.750 --> 02:10:17.189
work that I make, you now, that I

3800
02:10:17.190 --> 02:10:19.229
was making and trying to

3801
02:10:19.230 --> 02:10:20.889
create and investigate with.

3802
02:10:20.890 --> 02:10:22.829
And so I

3803
02:10:22.830 --> 02:10:24.729
found ways to try

3804
02:10:24.730 --> 02:10:25.730
to.

3805
02:10:28.240 --> 02:10:30.079
Make it work.

3806
02:10:30.080 --> 02:10:31.679
It's always like this ebbs and

3807
02:10:31.680 --> 02:10:32.899
flows, right? It's a roller coaster.

3808
02:10:32.900 --> 02:10:35.619
It's going to be surprises.

3809
02:10:35.620 --> 02:10:37.119
So it's just if you really want to

3810
02:10:37.120 --> 02:10:38.939
do it and you're really engaged and

3811
02:10:38.940 --> 02:10:41.059
kind of committed

3812
02:10:41.060 --> 02:10:42.939
to it, you know, it's

3813
02:10:42.940 --> 02:10:44.780
not a question, you know?

3814
02:10:46.540 --> 02:10:47.540
And that was it, yeah.

3815
02:10:51.050 --> 02:10:52.050
Um...

3816
02:10:53.970 --> 02:10:56.169
I disappointed my parents early

3817
02:10:56.170 --> 02:10:57.170
on.

3818
02:10:58.050 --> 02:10:59.409
Basically, I dropped out of the

3819
02:10:59.410 --> 02:11:00.489
university.

3820
02:11:00.490 --> 02:11:02.309
And then the bar was so

3821
02:11:02.310 --> 02:11:04.449
low that when I went and

3822
02:11:04.450 --> 02:11:06.709
finished it, they're

3823
02:11:06.710 --> 02:11:08.769
really happy about it.

3824
02:11:10.010 --> 02:11:11.049
I finished.

3825
02:11:12.370 --> 02:11:14.349
So keep the

3826
02:11:14.350 --> 02:11:15.199
bar low.

3827
02:11:15.200 --> 02:11:17.519
That's

3828
02:11:17.520 --> 02:11:18.520
good.

3829
02:11:27.220 --> 02:11:28.399
Hi, everyone.

3830
02:11:28.400 --> 02:11:29.400
My name is Joe.

3831
02:11:30.360 --> 02:11:31.900
Got a question for Miljan.

3832
02:11:33.480 --> 02:11:35.219
You mentioned, what did you mean

3833
02:11:35.220 --> 02:11:37.379
when you said dominant society

3834
02:11:37.380 --> 02:11:38.960
controls space but not time?

3835
02:11:40.360 --> 02:11:41.999
From my vantage point, it's like the

3836
02:11:42.000 --> 02:11:43.919
imposition of time, whether

3837
02:11:43.920 --> 02:11:47.199
it's colonial or capitalist time,

3838
02:11:47.200 --> 02:11:49.619
that has fueled Filipinos as

3839
02:11:49.620 --> 02:11:50.979
a colonial global subject.

3840
02:11:52.000 --> 02:11:54.139
For example, the

3841
02:11:54.140 --> 02:11:55.579
imperative for Filipinos to be

3842
02:11:55.580 --> 02:11:56.580
colonized was.

3843
02:11:58.170 --> 02:11:59.449
Was because they were seen as

3844
02:11:59.450 --> 02:12:02.209
backwards, as savage.

3845
02:12:02.210 --> 02:12:04.269
The urge to assimilate for

3846
02:12:04.270 --> 02:12:06.389
Filipinos is, I

3847
02:12:06.390 --> 02:12:08.209
guess, driven by the

3848
02:12:08.210 --> 02:12:09.809
so-called future promise of

3849
02:12:09.810 --> 02:12:11.309
progress.

3850
02:12:11.310 --> 02:12:13.229
And then the tendency for Western

3851
02:12:13.230 --> 02:12:15.289
men, for example, to find

3852
02:12:15.290 --> 02:12:17.709
Filipino women in the Philippines is

3853
02:12:17.710 --> 02:12:21.849
because they represent the

3854
02:12:21.850 --> 02:12:24.209
pre-modern woman.

3855
02:12:24.210 --> 02:12:25.809
So what did you mean by like?

3856
02:12:26.940 --> 02:12:28.259
I didn't read your essay.

3857
02:12:28.260 --> 02:12:29.739
I'm really looking forward to

3858
02:12:29.740 --> 02:12:31.519
reading it, but just kind of a

3859
02:12:31.520 --> 02:12:33.879
little bit more clear on why you

3860
02:12:33.880 --> 02:12:35.759
said that dominant

3861
02:12:35.760 --> 02:12:36.859
society doesn't control time.

3862
02:12:38.720 --> 02:12:40.559
I think a lot of,

3863
02:12:40.560 --> 02:12:42.399
I mean, a lot of

3864
02:12:42.400 --> 02:12:45.939
my own issues arises

3865
02:12:45.940 --> 02:12:48.059
from embracing

3866
02:12:48.060 --> 02:12:49.979
these

3867
02:12:49.980 --> 02:12:51.699
values, right?

3868
02:12:51.700 --> 02:12:53.239
Like you're raised in these values

3869
02:12:53.240 --> 02:12:55.719
and they're at odds with

3870
02:12:55.720 --> 02:12:57.619
just how you are, you

3871
02:12:57.620 --> 02:13:00.659
know? And I think we

3872
02:13:00.660 --> 02:13:02.639
comport ourselves to these

3873
02:13:02.640 --> 02:13:05.659
values that's

3874
02:13:05.660 --> 02:13:06.919
not mine, right.

3875
02:13:06.920 --> 02:13:08.129
And so.

3876
02:13:08.130 --> 02:13:10.329
The way to think about it really is.

3877
02:13:16.650 --> 02:13:18.469
Who's time is

3878
02:13:18.470 --> 02:13:19.609
it, right?

3879
02:13:19.610 --> 02:13:22.189
It's usually always Western time,

3880
02:13:22.190 --> 02:13:24.409
right, modernity,

3881
02:13:24.410 --> 02:13:25.589
whatever.

3882
02:13:25.590 --> 02:13:27.529
Like all these, you know, these are

3883
02:13:27.530 --> 02:13:28.530
inventions.

3884
02:13:30.860 --> 02:13:32.799
Yeah, and so, I mean, it's

3885
02:13:32.800 --> 02:13:33.800
more technical.

3886
02:13:36.500 --> 02:13:38.599
Basically, I

3887
02:13:38.600 --> 02:13:40.419
want to

3888
02:13:40.420 --> 02:13:42.399
open up time as the

3889
02:13:42.400 --> 02:13:44.479
possibility of contingency,

3890
02:13:44.480 --> 02:13:46.519
of rupture, right?

3891
02:13:46.520 --> 02:13:48.019
And so, for me,

3892
02:13:51.200 --> 02:13:52.360
So for me, basically,

3893
02:13:53.640 --> 02:13:55.699
the entrenched power tries

3894
02:13:55.700 --> 02:13:57.540
to convince you that.

3895
02:14:01.730 --> 02:14:03.749
Everything is causal, right?

3896
02:14:03.750 --> 02:14:05.989
Most things are causal, but

3897
02:14:05.990 --> 02:14:07.889
what that means is you

3898
02:14:07.890 --> 02:14:09.949
become more determinist, right,

3899
02:14:09.950 --> 02:14:12.129
and you think like, oh,

3900
02:14:12.130 --> 02:14:13.889
you know, it actually takes hard

3901
02:14:13.890 --> 02:14:16.649
work to take structures

3902
02:14:16.650 --> 02:14:18.809
from the world you've

3903
02:14:18.810 --> 02:14:20.869
inherited to immanence

3904
02:14:20.870 --> 02:14:22.709
or to the next moment, right.

3905
02:14:22.710 --> 02:14:25.129
We all have to carry it forward,

3906
02:14:25.130 --> 02:14:27.129
right and I fantasize

3907
02:14:27.130 --> 02:14:28.969
about this default where

3908
02:14:28.970 --> 02:14:31.329
we could just be lazy and

3909
02:14:31.330 --> 02:14:32.330
stop.

3910
02:14:33.800 --> 02:14:36.199
And so that's sort of

3911
02:14:36.200 --> 02:14:38.519
a way to think about it, right?

3912
02:14:38.520 --> 02:14:40.439
Like, cause we think it's the other

3913
02:14:40.440 --> 02:14:42.459
way around, you know?

3914
02:14:42.460 --> 02:14:44.339
That somehow, you now, like we try

3915
02:14:44.340 --> 02:14:46.859
to control for contingency or that's

3916
02:14:46.860 --> 02:14:47.919
accidental, right.

3917
02:14:47.920 --> 02:14:49.919
And we think about in

3918
02:14:49.920 --> 02:14:51.739
terms of continuity and permanence

3919
02:14:51.740 --> 02:14:53.639
or you know, like all these

3920
02:14:53.640 --> 02:14:55.519
things that may be, I don't

3921
02:14:55.520 --> 02:14:57.459
know, why?

3922
02:14:57.460 --> 02:14:58.759
You know, Why do we care about

3923
02:14:58.760 --> 02:14:59.759
stability?

3924
02:14:59.760 --> 02:15:01.379
Or why do we, you like, why do

3925
02:15:01.380 --> 02:15:02.380
value?

3926
02:15:02.950 --> 02:15:04.149
You know, like all these things,

3927
02:15:04.150 --> 02:15:06.229
maybe we should rethink

3928
02:15:06.230 --> 02:15:08.229
them, right?

3929
02:15:08.230 --> 02:15:10.289
And usually, you know, I always

3930
02:15:10.290 --> 02:15:12.289
felt like I'm always in my back foot

3931
02:15:12.290 --> 02:15:15.169
in subscribing to these ideas.

3932
02:15:15.170 --> 02:15:16.429
Like, I could just stop.

3933
02:15:21.580 --> 02:15:22.919
See, do we have any other questions?

3934
02:15:25.900 --> 02:15:26.900
Okay, maybe.

3935
02:15:29.420 --> 02:15:31.319
I just have two questions and

3936
02:15:31.320 --> 02:15:33.199
two comments, if I could.

3937
02:15:33.200 --> 02:15:34.719
So just talking to the diversity of

3938
02:15:34.720 --> 02:15:37.439
the Philippines, the experiences of

3939
02:15:37.440 --> 02:15:38.819
people from different parts of the

3940
02:15:38.820 --> 02:15:40.479
Philippians are also different.

3941
02:15:40.480 --> 02:15:42.319
So you can have Zipuanos,

3942
02:15:42.320 --> 02:15:44.219
you're gonna have people from

3943
02:15:44.220 --> 02:15:47.139
the Cordillera, the Fugaos,

3944
02:15:47.140 --> 02:15:49.539
or you can people from the Visayas

3945
02:15:49.540 --> 02:15:50.599
and Ilocanos.

3946
02:15:50.600 --> 02:15:52.339
So the experience is different.

3947
02:15:52.340 --> 02:15:53.579
So from Hawaii, you'd have the

3948
02:15:53.580 --> 02:15:54.959
Ilocano experiences that came

3949
02:15:54.960 --> 02:15:57.809
through the plantation situation.

3950
02:15:57.810 --> 02:15:59.209
And other people who emigrated to

3951
02:15:59.210 --> 02:16:00.609
larger cities in America had a

3952
02:16:00.610 --> 02:16:01.610
different experience.

3953
02:16:02.810 --> 02:16:04.749
That was just one comment.

3954
02:16:04.750 --> 02:16:06.389
One of the questions was that, how

3955
02:16:06.390 --> 02:16:08.449
much do you draw from, we

3956
02:16:08.450 --> 02:16:09.989
have talked about building on the

3957
02:16:09.990 --> 02:16:11.669
shoulders of giants, right?

3958
02:16:11.670 --> 02:16:13.849
So for artists have gone on before

3959
02:16:13.850 --> 02:16:15.949
us, as

3960
02:16:15.950 --> 02:16:17.469
a curator I've worked with a lot of

3961
02:16:17.470 --> 02:16:19.409
Filipino artists and have done

3962
02:16:19.410 --> 02:16:21.509
several shows, but people

3963
02:16:21.510 --> 02:16:23.489
like David Medalia,

3964
02:16:23.490 --> 02:16:26.389
that you mentioned, and also

3965
02:16:26.390 --> 02:16:28.049
Acida Obad.

3966
02:16:28.050 --> 02:16:29.109
Who I've had the unfortunate of

3967
02:16:29.110 --> 02:16:31.169
working with both of them, but also

3968
02:16:31.170 --> 02:16:33.169
contemporary people like Paul

3969
02:16:33.170 --> 02:16:35.049
Pfeiffer, who's gonna

3970
02:16:35.050 --> 02:16:36.729
be in the next Venice Biennale, as

3971
02:16:36.730 --> 02:16:39.229
well as Pio Abad, who's from London,

3972
02:16:39.230 --> 02:16:41.349
and the next Whitney

3973
02:16:41.350 --> 02:16:43.449
Biennial is gonna be Kaino

3974
02:16:43.450 --> 02:16:45.349
Grispe from Hawaii,

3975
02:16:45.350 --> 02:16:47.189
and Michelle Lopez from New

3976
02:16:47.190 --> 02:16:48.029
York.

3977
02:16:48.030 --> 02:16:49.569
And I'm really happy to see that the

3978
02:16:49.570 --> 02:16:51.009
Whitney's been showing work by

3979
02:16:51.010 --> 02:16:52.849
Carlos Viglia, who was up at

3980
02:16:52.850 --> 02:16:54.229
the San Francisco Art Institute, a

3981
02:16:54.230 --> 02:16:56.169
really beloved instructor.

3982
02:16:56.170 --> 02:16:57.779
So I just wanted to...

3983
02:16:57.780 --> 02:17:00.039
Mentioned those people as well.

3984
02:17:00.040 --> 02:17:01.079
But the question was about building

3985
02:17:01.080 --> 02:17:03.179
on the shoulders of giants,

3986
02:17:03.180 --> 02:17:04.919
and do you refer to some of these

3987
02:17:04.920 --> 02:17:06.759
individuals in your work,

3988
02:17:06.760 --> 02:17:08.219
or, and I guess the last question

3989
02:17:08.220 --> 02:17:10.119
is, is there such a thing as

3990
02:17:10.120 --> 02:17:11.380
post-colonialism?

3991
02:17:18.570 --> 02:17:20.509
Enzo Camacho and Amy

3992
02:17:20.510 --> 02:17:21.749
Lian is also.

3993
02:17:29.700 --> 02:17:30.700
Bye.

3994
02:17:34.940 --> 02:17:36.939
I guess I'm thinking

3995
02:17:36.940 --> 02:17:38.819
about those, I think about

3996
02:17:38.820 --> 02:17:39.979
those artists, but I don't know if

3997
02:17:39.980 --> 02:17:42.279
I'm informed by them or they

3998
02:17:42.280 --> 02:17:48.039
propel my art making in

3999
02:17:48.040 --> 02:17:49.179
general.

4000
02:17:49.180 --> 02:17:51.199
But I

4001
02:17:51.200 --> 02:17:54.239
don't know, I guess I pull more from

4002
02:17:54.240 --> 02:17:56.879
the experience with my family and

4003
02:17:56.880 --> 02:17:59.299
kind of a personal kind of

4004
02:17:59.300 --> 02:18:02.779
source.

4005
02:18:02.780 --> 02:18:05.139
In that way, but I am familiar with

4006
02:18:05.140 --> 02:18:06.099
many of those artists that you were

4007
02:18:06.100 --> 02:18:07.100
talking about,

4008
02:18:08.560 --> 02:18:10.399
and I don't know, that's how

4009
02:18:10.400 --> 02:18:12.319
I operate, just kind of

4010
02:18:12.320 --> 02:18:13.799
as contemporaries or just looking at

4011
02:18:13.800 --> 02:18:15.919
them as more

4012
02:18:15.920 --> 02:18:17.919
as fuel

4013
02:18:17.920 --> 02:18:20.879
or inspiration happy with

4014
02:18:20.880 --> 02:18:22.699
the notoriety

4015
02:18:22.700 --> 02:18:23.700
they get.

4016
02:18:27.490 --> 02:18:29.509
You know, I didn't

4017
02:18:29.510 --> 02:18:31.769
get a lot of experience with

4018
02:18:31.770 --> 02:18:33.189
art from the Philippines,

4019
02:18:34.630 --> 02:18:36.869
and also Filipino-American

4020
02:18:36.870 --> 02:18:38.729
artists. In fact, it was

4021
02:18:38.730 --> 02:18:41.089
just in the last

4022
02:18:41.090 --> 02:18:43.369
few years, like when I went to

4023
02:18:43.370 --> 02:18:45.269
see that Philippine

4024
02:18:45.270 --> 02:18:47.229
collecting show at San

4025
02:18:47.230 --> 02:18:49.109
Francisco Museum, the Asian

4026
02:18:49.110 --> 02:18:51.709
American Museum in San Francisco.

4027
02:18:51.710 --> 02:18:53.689
I'm familiar with

4028
02:18:53.690 --> 02:18:54.869
Santiago Boze.

4029
02:18:54.870 --> 02:18:57.309
I was in an exhibition with him.

4030
02:18:57.310 --> 02:18:59.149
A long time ago,

4031
02:18:59.150 --> 02:19:01.029
but even when I was in that

4032
02:19:01.030 --> 02:19:02.249
exhibition with him, I wasn't

4033
02:19:02.250 --> 02:19:04.409
familiar with his practice.

4034
02:19:04.410 --> 02:19:06.350
I was very young and just not.

4035
02:19:08.870 --> 02:19:11.649
You know, this is pre-computer.

4036
02:19:11.650 --> 02:19:14.649
This is pre, going

4037
02:19:14.650 --> 02:19:18.289
to the library and seeing any

4038
02:19:18.290 --> 02:19:19.529
texts

4039
02:19:21.650 --> 02:19:24.869
about Asian Americans,

4040
02:19:24.870 --> 02:19:27.269
let alone Filipino Americans in

4041
02:19:27.270 --> 02:19:28.629
the libraries.

4042
02:19:28.630 --> 02:19:30.989
So, I'm

4043
02:19:30.990 --> 02:19:32.829
just learning still now,

4044
02:19:32.830 --> 02:19:36.269
you know, and I...

4045
02:19:36.270 --> 02:19:38.789
I was looking up like David Mandala

4046
02:19:38.790 --> 02:19:40.989
and I saw this like

4047
02:19:40.990 --> 02:19:42.509
conceptual art practice that I

4048
02:19:42.510 --> 02:19:44.569
couldn't believe that was happening

4049
02:19:44.570 --> 02:19:45.789
back then.

4050
02:19:45.790 --> 02:19:47.809
And so it's exciting

4051
02:19:47.810 --> 02:19:49.749
to me, but they don't inform

4052
02:19:49.750 --> 02:19:50.750
me.

4053
02:19:53.430 --> 02:19:55.009
I got the Western canon.

4054
02:19:58.650 --> 02:20:01.009
I think about David and Natalia

4055
02:20:01.010 --> 02:20:02.010
a lot,

4056
02:20:04.270 --> 02:20:06.589
and I

4057
02:20:06.590 --> 02:20:08.969
mean, I feel like I'm

4058
02:20:08.970 --> 02:20:10.689
in conversation with the artists

4059
02:20:10.690 --> 02:20:12.549
that you talked about,

4060
02:20:12.550 --> 02:20:14.949
with Paul and Pio, Michelle,

4061
02:20:14.950 --> 02:20:16.769
I know them, so you

4062
02:20:16.770 --> 02:20:17.770
know, we talk.

4063
02:20:20.810 --> 02:20:22.429
I think it's good for.

4064
02:20:24.740 --> 02:20:26.959
We should all be in conversation.

4065
02:20:26.960 --> 02:20:27.960
It's important.

4066
02:20:30.020 --> 02:20:31.899
Can I just add that, like,

4067
02:20:31.900 --> 02:20:33.379
I think when I was growing up, Paul

4068
02:20:33.380 --> 02:20:35.639
Pfeiffer was, you

4069
02:20:35.640 --> 02:20:36.880
know, very visible

4070
02:20:37.960 --> 02:20:39.979
and really excited that he

4071
02:20:39.980 --> 02:20:41.939
had an opportunity to have a

4072
02:20:41.940 --> 02:20:43.819
show at the

4073
02:20:43.820 --> 02:20:44.820
Geffen,

4074
02:20:46.360 --> 02:20:48.159
and that kind of a...

4075
02:20:50.450 --> 02:20:51.969
You know, it was just exciting to

4076
02:20:51.970 --> 02:20:53.730
see somebody back then.

4077
02:20:55.800 --> 02:20:57.419
I appreciate your comments about the

4078
02:20:57.420 --> 02:20:58.679
diversity of all of the different

4079
02:20:58.680 --> 02:21:00.339
people of all the different regions

4080
02:21:00.340 --> 02:21:02.159
of the Philippines and how their

4081
02:21:02.160 --> 02:21:04.719
experiences may be different.

4082
02:21:04.720 --> 02:21:06.139
So that is something important to

4083
02:21:06.140 --> 02:21:07.140
remember.

4084
02:21:08.410 --> 02:21:10.469
Yeah, I mean, Paul

4085
02:21:10.470 --> 02:21:12.469
had a big show here

4086
02:21:12.470 --> 02:21:14.549
and in Chicago.

4087
02:21:14.550 --> 02:21:16.649
And then Josh Klein had

4088
02:21:16.650 --> 02:21:17.869
a show at the Whitney.

4089
02:21:19.330 --> 02:21:21.089
And you will have a show soon at the

4090
02:21:21.090 --> 02:21:22.350
Cantor Art Center.

4091
02:21:23.410 --> 02:21:25.069
And Patrick's all over the place.

4092
02:21:25.070 --> 02:21:26.070
You know, like,

4093
02:21:27.310 --> 02:21:29.189
so I think that it is,

4094
02:21:29.190 --> 02:21:30.849
oh, okay, we have one more question.

4095
02:21:32.590 --> 02:21:34.569
This is a museum question,

4096
02:21:34.570 --> 02:21:36.509
because I noticed all of your

4097
02:21:36.510 --> 02:21:38.489
works were in museums

4098
02:21:38.490 --> 02:21:39.710
at one point.

4099
02:21:43.430 --> 02:21:45.309
Most of us have gone into

4100
02:21:45.310 --> 02:21:47.129
encyclopedic or

4101
02:21:47.130 --> 02:21:49.549
global museums,

4102
02:21:49.550 --> 02:21:51.709
and you'll see each gallery

4103
02:21:51.710 --> 02:21:54.389
or space is separated by

4104
02:21:54.390 --> 02:21:56.629
ethnic cultures, so like a Chinese

4105
02:21:56.630 --> 02:21:59.309
gallery, Korean gallery.

4106
02:21:59.310 --> 02:22:00.989
And there's always this

4107
02:22:00.990 --> 02:22:02.889
miscellaneous gallery

4108
02:22:02.890 --> 02:22:04.749
with oceanic,

4109
02:22:04.750 --> 02:22:06.709
Himalayan, et cetera,

4110
02:22:06.710 --> 02:22:08.489
because there's not enough works in

4111
02:22:08.490 --> 02:22:10.409
their collections to merit an

4112
02:22:10.410 --> 02:22:12.009
entire space.

4113
02:22:12.010 --> 02:22:13.529
I was lucky enough to work at a

4114
02:22:13.530 --> 02:22:15.609
museum where we did a total

4115
02:22:15.610 --> 02:22:17.509
reinstallation, where we

4116
02:22:17.510 --> 02:22:19.569
ignored those categories and

4117
02:22:19.570 --> 02:22:21.449
instead reinstalled

4118
02:22:21.450 --> 02:22:24.089
each room by themes

4119
02:22:24.090 --> 02:22:26.149
and what all those objects

4120
02:22:26.150 --> 02:22:27.150
shared.

4121
02:22:28.170 --> 02:22:29.170
So.

4122
02:22:31.000 --> 02:22:33.259
In the contemporary arena,

4123
02:22:34.600 --> 02:22:36.479
speaking of Cantor, they did that

4124
02:22:36.480 --> 02:22:38.439
Spirit House exhibition last

4125
02:22:38.440 --> 02:22:39.440
year.

4126
02:22:39.880 --> 02:22:42.439
And to me, I don't know,

4127
02:22:42.440 --> 02:22:44.419
but it was the first time I saw

4128
02:22:44.420 --> 02:22:46.539
an exhibition with a whole

4129
02:22:46.540 --> 02:22:48.779
lot of Southeast Asian artists

4130
02:22:48.780 --> 02:22:50.480
represented.

4131
02:22:51.500 --> 02:22:53.679
But again, that exhibit was

4132
02:22:53.680 --> 02:22:55.519
around a singular theme, and it

4133
02:22:55.520 --> 02:22:58.159
had many different Asian

4134
02:22:58.160 --> 02:22:59.780
American diaspora.

4135
02:23:02.380 --> 02:23:04.339
As artists, do you see

4136
02:23:04.340 --> 02:23:06.219
a shift, because as

4137
02:23:06.220 --> 02:23:08.279
a museum person, I'm starting to

4138
02:23:08.280 --> 02:23:11.040
see this shift in more inclusivity.

4139
02:23:12.340 --> 02:23:14.719
As artists do you feel that as

4140
02:23:14.720 --> 02:23:16.679
far as like more opportunities

4141
02:23:16.680 --> 02:23:18.499
or more commissions

4142
02:23:18.500 --> 02:23:20.859
or do you more

4143
02:23:20.860 --> 02:23:21.860
seen? I don't know.

4144
02:23:32.780 --> 02:23:34.639
I think there

4145
02:23:34.640 --> 02:23:36.479
is a shift.

4146
02:23:36.480 --> 02:23:38.359
I think that there's

4147
02:23:38.360 --> 02:23:40.639
also sort of the

4148
02:23:40.640 --> 02:23:42.759
beginnings of

4149
02:23:42.760 --> 02:23:45.419
Asian-American

4150
02:23:45.420 --> 02:23:47.399
art scholarship,

4151
02:23:48.880 --> 02:23:51.219
so, you know, so

4152
02:23:51.220 --> 02:23:53.399
things are opening

4153
02:23:53.400 --> 02:23:54.400
up.

4154
02:23:58.730 --> 02:24:01.069
Yeah, there's more

4155
02:24:01.070 --> 02:24:03.089
Filipino-American curators.

4156
02:24:04.150 --> 02:24:05.609
There's just more.

4157
02:24:08.630 --> 02:24:09.630
Yeah, just so.

4158
02:24:11.870 --> 02:24:13.409
It's just more representation, for

4159
02:24:13.410 --> 02:24:14.709
sure.

4160
02:24:14.710 --> 02:24:16.189
You can see it in the museums.

4161
02:24:16.190 --> 02:24:18.109
You see it at galleries.

4162
02:24:18.110 --> 02:24:19.609
Patrick is like,

4163
02:24:20.970 --> 02:24:23.589
Mijon also, we

4164
02:24:23.590 --> 02:24:25.309
were talking earlier about how he's

4165
02:24:25.310 --> 02:24:27.269
gonna be in a panel, or

4166
02:24:27.270 --> 02:24:28.689
actually in a discussion with

4167
02:24:28.690 --> 02:24:30.309
another artist that's of Filipino

4168
02:24:30.310 --> 02:24:32.269
background about

4169
02:24:32.270 --> 02:24:33.889
a subject that's not Filipino.

4170
02:24:33.890 --> 02:24:35.739
That's really amazing.

4171
02:24:35.740 --> 02:24:36.740
Thank you.

4172
02:24:40.440 --> 02:24:42.279
Okay, I think we've made it to the

4173
02:24:42.280 --> 02:24:44.399
end of our last

4174
02:24:44.400 --> 02:24:46.339
panel. Thank you all so

4175
02:24:46.340 --> 02:24:47.199
much.

4176
02:24:47.200 --> 02:24:48.639
I thank these artists so much, it's

4177
02:24:48.640 --> 02:24:50.639
an honor to be here with you.

4178
02:24:50.640 --> 02:24:51.640
Thank you.

4179
02:24:54.260 --> 02:24:55.859
And then I believe Shannon has some

4180
02:24:55.860 --> 02:24:56.860
updates. Thank you.

4181
02:24:57.960 --> 02:25:00.179
You all so much for being here.

4182
02:25:00.180 --> 02:25:01.039
Thank you, Danielle.

4183
02:25:01.040 --> 02:25:02.739
Thank you Grace. Thank you to all of

4184
02:25:02.740 --> 02:25:03.779
our panelists.

4185
02:25:03.780 --> 02:25:05.999
We're going to party now.

4186
02:25:06.000 --> 02:25:07.819
We're gonna have some drinks over

4187
02:25:07.820 --> 02:25:09.839
here and some snacks along the

4188
02:25:09.840 --> 02:25:11.359
wall. We're to move some chairs out

4189
02:25:11.360 --> 02:25:12.319
of the way.

4190
02:25:12.320 --> 02:25:13.559
But come on over. We hope that

4191
02:25:13.560 --> 02:25:14.899
you'll stay and continue the

4192
02:25:14.900 --> 02:25:16.159
conversation with us.

4193
02:25:16.160 --> 02:25:17.619
Thank you so, so much.