WEBVTT

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Hi, everyone.

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Welcome to the Hammer Museum.

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I'm Claudia Bestor. I am the

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director of public programs and

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I'm very delighted to welcome you to

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tonight's poetry reading with the

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wonderful poet Rosanna Warren.

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Before we begin, I want to remind

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you to please silence your cell

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phones.

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Tonight is our last poetry reading

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of the academic year, although we

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do have some wonderful programs

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coming up with New Yorker writer and

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poet James Blaston,

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culture critic, Roxanne Gay.

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and Bloomsday, a celebration of

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James Joyce's Ulysses coming up.

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So we'll still have some literary

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offerings for you this summer.

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If you're not on the Hammer's email

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list yet, please sign up on the

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paper sheet that's over by the

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coffee or on

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our website to get notified about

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our upcoming programs.

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I wanna extend my gratitude to the

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UCLA English Department and the UCLA

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Recreation Department for their

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continued generous

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support for this poetry series.

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and I wanna thank all of you,

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Hammer supporters and members in the

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audience who make all of this

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possible.

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This poetry reading began 57 years

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ago, making it the longest ongoing

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series of poetry readings on the

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West Coast.

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Since it moved from the UCLA campus

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to the Hammer Museum 32 years ago

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Stephen Yenser has curated and

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hosted the readings and we're very

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grateful to him.

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Yenser is Distinguished Professor of

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English Emeritus at UCLA.

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and was the original director of

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creative writing at UCLA, where he

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received the prestigious Harvey L.

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Eby Award for the art of teaching.

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He's the author of three volumes of

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poetry, as well as three critical

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books, and the editor and co-editor

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of six volumes by James Merrill.

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He's a lifelong champion of poetry

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and of poets, both through his

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critical writing and by his

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commitment to bringing incredible

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poets to read here for

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the Los Angeles community.

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He's also served for 40 years as

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a beloved teacher and mentor for

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UCLA students, advising scores of

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PhD students, as well as teaching

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courses in the writing of poems,

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and in 20th and 21st century

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American poetry.

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Yenzer will introduce our

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distinguished reader, Rosanna

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Warren, and we'll interview her

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following the reading.

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And after that, we'll have a book

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signing and some light refreshments.

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So now please join me in welcoming

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my dear friend, Stephen Yencer.

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Thank you, Claudia.

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Claudia's been surprising me all

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night.

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And I'm very grateful

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to her for doing

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an introduction.

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I'm going to introduce

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Rosanna Warren, which

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is what we're all here

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for.

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Rosanna's been doing a lot of work

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lately.

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Rosanna always does a lot work,

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but lately she

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has published a

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really great biography

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of Max Jacob.

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She has a new book of poems

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from which you're going to hear

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tonight.

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She has another new book poems,

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really already on the way.

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She's retired.

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And so she's doing all of this, I

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guess.

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Just think what we'd have if

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you had retired very early on

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or not done

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all that teaching stuff.

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Her new book,

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the book we're going to do tonight,

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partly though I think

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Rosanna's going to read from

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the next book.

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I'm sorry, I've got problems,

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kappa P, from

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head to foot tonight.

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The new book that she will read from

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tonight is called So Forth.

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And you can get a copy at

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the back after

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the reading is over and

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even ask Rosanna to

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sign it.

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She has a beautiful signature.

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And oh, I didn't

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bring my copy with me.

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It's a beautifully produced book.

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This is its cover,

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which you won't really be

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able to see very well from there.

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That's all right, in a way,

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because you have to really get up

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close to it to see it anyway.

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Really get your nose

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into it.

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It's the first suggestion,

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indirectly, from her

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publishers as to how to

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read this book.

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which is very closely.

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You've got to get your nose into

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it.

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These are intense poems.

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They're clear, but

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they're very intense

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and solid.

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And you have to look closely and

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look deeply in

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order to read them.

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You have to attend.

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is a painting by

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Bunny Harvey.

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It's a large painting.

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It's about, I think, 4 and 1 half

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feet by 5 and 1 1 half feet.

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So it's a substantial piece

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of work.

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And it brings us already

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even reproduced

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in this size.

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We have to get right up to it,

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at which point we will see a

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chain link fence.

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gives as though through

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a gap in the wire to...

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landscape, but actually

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what we see is not so much

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a landscape as it is

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paint.

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I mean this is all paint.

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That is really fascinating.

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We look through this opening

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and we

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see a mostly barren landscape,

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then deep in the distance

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we can see some urban buildings.

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Just hinted at maybe

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a crudely drawn

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pyramid.

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unless that's a part of the

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chain link fence.

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And at the edges,

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back up even closer to

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us than the fence, around

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here, there are some

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wildflowers,

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abstractly painted.

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They keep us in

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where they want to keep us.

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My words have to

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give way to what we see,

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as it's a really remarkable

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painting.

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and we see what

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the painting makes us imagine

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we see.

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I had to look up the artist

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online.

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She has some wonderful paintings.

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I should have known, I'm embarrassed

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to say that I don't know

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Bunny Harvey, but I recommend her

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all just on the basis of

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what I've seen online.

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Recommend her to

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you.

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It's kind of uncanny, Rosanna,

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reading Bunny Harvey's

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description of her own work

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on her website.

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I was reminded often.

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of yours.

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And so I don't know

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what Rosanna had to do with the

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cover of the book but she must

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have recognized a kindred spirit.

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And you know when you get to

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Rosanna's poems you look

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at the landscape but then you're

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looking at the words.

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You're looking at the meter,

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you're looking at the technique,

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you know, looking at

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the things.

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This is a poet.

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who loves excellent

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painting and

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who in fact knows the art.

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In fact she's an excellent poet

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who is also a

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painter and

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it's no coincidence

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that much of what Harvey

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does tells us something about what

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Rosanna does.

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The more time we take with

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Rosanna's lines the more

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deeply we see

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into them and beyond them

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at which point we

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return to the surfaces,

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the words and the line breaks

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and

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the meters that we have,

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that she has in hand and

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so forth.

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the opening poem, which

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keeps us focused.

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and takes us away from

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this wasteland that it

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gives us a glimpse of,

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is entitled, I'm

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sorry, I've run my two

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things together, my two arts.

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The opening poem here is

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called Cotillion Photo.

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And it's that poem

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that I meant to say keeps

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us on

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the subject of art.

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Cotillon Photo, it's called.

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Do we still use that word?

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Cotillion,

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some of you I know do

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or have probably even

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attended.

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It's usually associated

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in this country with

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the debutantes ball, I think,

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and still probably for

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some of us associated with

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coming out, a

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coming out celebration socially.

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Cotillion's literally a

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petticoat.

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The first lines of the poem,

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and this volume itself,

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are as follows.

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I'm going to read them, and

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I'm going to concentrate on this

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poem for

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a little bit.

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These young women will

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last forever posed

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like

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greyhounds.

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These young woman will

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last for ever posed

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like grayhounds

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in the silver crust of the

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frame.

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You can't tell them from one another

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the breed is so pure.

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And those are really strong,

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pure lines.

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It's very important how you open

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a book.

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we can infer an enormous amount

295
00:11:18.320 --> 00:11:20.139
on the basis of these

296
00:11:20.140 --> 00:11:21.140
lines.

297
00:11:22.340 --> 00:11:24.379
It's a poet with

298
00:11:24.380 --> 00:11:25.479
guts.

299
00:11:25.480 --> 00:11:27.599
I'm not talking into the mic,

300
00:11:27.600 --> 00:11:28.600
am I?

301
00:11:35.300 --> 00:11:37.319
The debutantes here

302
00:11:37.320 --> 00:11:39.839
are immortalized,

303
00:11:39.840 --> 00:11:40.900
so to speak.

304
00:11:42.300 --> 00:11:44.499
These young women will last

305
00:11:44.500 --> 00:11:46.220
forever, we're told.

306
00:11:49.610 --> 00:11:51.809
They're immortalized for a second.

307
00:11:53.290 --> 00:11:55.129
But they're like dogs,

308
00:11:56.910 --> 00:11:59.149
like dogs originally bred

309
00:11:59.150 --> 00:12:01.210
to race

310
00:12:02.370 --> 00:12:05.229
and also to show,

311
00:12:05.230 --> 00:12:07.549
bred to exhibit certain

312
00:12:07.550 --> 00:12:08.550
conditions,

313
00:12:10.310 --> 00:12:13.789
bred to erase individuality

314
00:12:13.790 --> 00:12:16.348
in favor of type.

315
00:12:16.349 --> 00:12:17.650
And there are now...

316
00:12:19.360 --> 00:12:21.479
known popularly as

317
00:12:21.480 --> 00:12:22.679
a family pet,

318
00:12:23.780 --> 00:12:25.719
that these young women are

319
00:12:25.720 --> 00:12:27.760
compared to these greyhounds.

320
00:12:29.540 --> 00:12:31.439
Because typically, and I quote some

321
00:12:31.440 --> 00:12:33.659
of the literature now, greyhound

322
00:12:33.660 --> 00:12:35.899
are affectionate,

323
00:12:35.900 --> 00:12:38.799
even-tempered, intelligent,

324
00:12:38.800 --> 00:12:40.919
athletic, gentle,

325
00:12:41.920 --> 00:12:42.920
quiet.

326
00:12:45.670 --> 00:12:47.509
how much we are urged to

327
00:12:47.510 --> 00:12:48.670
infer here.

328
00:12:50.230 --> 00:12:52.129
As the dogs are trapped in an

329
00:12:52.130 --> 00:12:53.969
expensive frame, so they can

330
00:12:53.970 --> 00:12:55.909
never run and will

331
00:12:55.910 --> 00:12:57.809
last forever in

332
00:12:57.810 --> 00:12:59.529
that domestic cage.

333
00:13:03.030 --> 00:13:04.969
We know a bookful, a whole

334
00:13:04.970 --> 00:13:07.089
bookful by the end of this,

335
00:13:07.090 --> 00:13:08.869
these three sentences, about the

336
00:13:08.870 --> 00:13:10.909
debutante's society,

337
00:13:10.910 --> 00:13:13.149
their sports, their wealth,

338
00:13:13.150 --> 00:13:15.129
their ambition, and their

339
00:13:15.130 --> 00:13:17.169
attitude, since we

340
00:13:17.170 --> 00:13:18.849
can be assured that they would be

341
00:13:18.850 --> 00:13:21.229
surprised by the radical

342
00:13:21.230 --> 00:13:23.229
ironies that dust these

343
00:13:23.230 --> 00:13:24.230
lines.

344
00:13:25.010 --> 00:13:27.629
So we know too what lacerating

345
00:13:27.630 --> 00:13:29.829
insight the poet, contemporary

346
00:13:29.830 --> 00:13:31.849
with the debutantes, is

347
00:13:31.850 --> 00:13:33.469
capable of.

348
00:13:33.470 --> 00:13:35.469
We know as well that the poet is

349
00:13:35.470 --> 00:13:37.309
sophisticated, yet

350
00:13:37.310 --> 00:13:39.389
plain spoken, and

351
00:13:39.390 --> 00:13:41.669
in command of her medium.

352
00:13:41.670 --> 00:13:43.250
The meter varies,

353
00:13:44.450 --> 00:13:46.769
a firm iambic pentameter,

354
00:13:46.770 --> 00:13:48.789
so cannily that the model

355
00:13:48.790 --> 00:13:51.469
itself rarely appears,

356
00:13:51.470 --> 00:13:53.649
the beautiful handling of

357
00:13:53.650 --> 00:13:54.650
the line.

358
00:13:55.770 --> 00:13:58.129
The simile of the

359
00:13:58.130 --> 00:14:00.369
debutantes to the greyhounds is

360
00:14:00.370 --> 00:14:02.709
extravagant, but it's

361
00:14:02.710 --> 00:14:03.710
crystal clear.

362
00:14:04.460 --> 00:14:06.679
These lines are shot through

363
00:14:06.680 --> 00:14:07.680
with thought.

364
00:14:10.400 --> 00:14:12.239
I've spent too long on this passage,

365
00:14:13.600 --> 00:14:15.639
but I wanted at least to

366
00:14:15.640 --> 00:14:17.519
scratch the surface,

367
00:14:17.520 --> 00:14:19.579
which is itself profound.

368
00:14:21.920 --> 00:14:23.619
of a verse that is

369
00:14:23.620 --> 00:14:26.339
characteristically rich and

370
00:14:26.340 --> 00:14:28.159
weighty, yet at the same

371
00:14:28.160 --> 00:14:31.439
time, light and

372
00:14:31.440 --> 00:14:32.440
transparent.

373
00:14:36.920 --> 00:14:39.459
Later in the poem, the speaker,

374
00:14:39.460 --> 00:14:40.460
who is a painter,

375
00:14:41.640 --> 00:14:43.679
turns to her own quite different

376
00:14:43.680 --> 00:14:45.759
life, living for weeks

377
00:14:45.760 --> 00:14:48.299
in a creaking barn in

378
00:14:48.300 --> 00:14:50.279
a prickly meadow,

379
00:14:50.280 --> 00:14:52.279
painting and reading Oedipus

380
00:14:52.280 --> 00:14:54.479
Rex all alone,

381
00:14:54.480 --> 00:14:56.299
except for a garter

382
00:14:56.300 --> 00:14:58.219
snake skin laid

383
00:14:58.220 --> 00:15:00.659
out like fairy lingerie

384
00:15:00.660 --> 00:15:02.079
on a stone wall.

385
00:15:02.080 --> 00:15:04.159
The sounds

386
00:15:04.160 --> 00:15:06.319
she hears in her creaking

387
00:15:06.320 --> 00:15:07.320
barn.

388
00:15:07.830 --> 00:15:10.189
include crickets scraping

389
00:15:10.190 --> 00:15:11.889
morrow from the day.

390
00:15:13.070 --> 00:15:14.909
And she tries to,

391
00:15:14.910 --> 00:15:16.849
there in the barn, to capture

392
00:15:16.850 --> 00:15:18.949
the crackling sound with

393
00:15:18.950 --> 00:15:19.950
her brush.

394
00:15:20.810 --> 00:15:22.869
Sorry, my voice is

395
00:15:22.870 --> 00:15:25.169
so bad this evening.

396
00:15:25.170 --> 00:15:27.089
It should, these lines

397
00:15:27.090 --> 00:15:29.090
are beautiful, beautiful lines.

398
00:15:30.790 --> 00:15:32.969
Crickets scraping a morrow

399
00:15:32.970 --> 00:15:34.989
from the days,

400
00:15:34.990 --> 00:15:36.710
wonderful, wonderful.

401
00:15:39.070 --> 00:15:40.889
phrase and

402
00:15:40.890 --> 00:15:42.869
she's trying to

403
00:15:42.870 --> 00:15:45.109
capture the crackling sound

404
00:15:45.110 --> 00:15:47.569
with her brush,

405
00:15:47.570 --> 00:15:48.570
painter's brush.

406
00:15:52.150 --> 00:15:54.089
That crackling sound recurs

407
00:15:54.090 --> 00:15:56.389
frequently through these poems,

408
00:15:56.390 --> 00:15:58.289
often in connection with aging

409
00:15:58.290 --> 00:16:00.349
and the passing of

410
00:16:00.350 --> 00:16:01.350
time.

411
00:16:02.490 --> 00:16:04.589
These are crucial themes,

412
00:16:04.590 --> 00:16:06.549
aging, the passing of time

413
00:16:06.550 --> 00:16:08.909
from the outset,

414
00:16:08.910 --> 00:16:10.829
from the first line.

415
00:16:10.830 --> 00:16:12.809
These young women will last

416
00:16:12.810 --> 00:16:13.810
forever.

417
00:16:15.560 --> 00:16:16.560
Indeed.

418
00:16:17.240 --> 00:16:19.340
I've hardly mentioned these themes,

419
00:16:20.640 --> 00:16:22.599
but I wanted

420
00:16:22.600 --> 00:16:25.319
to at least do so,

421
00:16:25.320 --> 00:16:27.299
though I think that the

422
00:16:27.300 --> 00:16:29.099
details in this book, the technical

423
00:16:29.100 --> 00:16:31.559
details, are so inspired

424
00:16:31.560 --> 00:16:34.259
and important that

425
00:16:34.260 --> 00:16:36.299
they deserve more than just

426
00:16:36.300 --> 00:16:37.579
a word.

427
00:16:37.580 --> 00:16:39.979
And as for the themes,

428
00:16:39.980 --> 00:16:41.919
well, you'll see you're about to

429
00:16:41.920 --> 00:16:43.399
hear all about them.

430
00:16:43.400 --> 00:16:44.400
Rosanna.

431
00:16:52.630 --> 00:16:54.469
Thank you very much.

432
00:16:54.470 --> 00:16:56.669
Thank you so much.

433
00:16:58.470 --> 00:17:00.469
on the stairs, and everything seems

434
00:17:00.470 --> 00:17:01.470
like that.

435
00:17:03.190 --> 00:17:04.689
You might have to know it all by

436
00:17:04.690 --> 00:17:05.690
heart.

437
00:17:11.979 --> 00:17:13.879
Thank you, Stephen,

438
00:17:13.880 --> 00:17:15.838
and thank you to the

439
00:17:15.839 --> 00:17:16.879
Hammer Museum.

440
00:17:16.880 --> 00:17:18.818
It's really exciting and moving

441
00:17:18.819 --> 00:17:20.598
to be back here.

442
00:17:20.599 --> 00:17:22.639
I read here some years ago

443
00:17:22.640 --> 00:17:25.759
and remembered it with

444
00:17:25.760 --> 00:17:26.899
excitement.

445
00:17:26.900 --> 00:17:28.559
I'll start reading the poem that

446
00:17:28.560 --> 00:17:29.919
Stephen's been talking about,

447
00:17:29.920 --> 00:17:32.019
Cotillion Photo, which

448
00:17:32.020 --> 00:17:34.099
is the first poem in this book,

449
00:17:34.100 --> 00:17:35.100
so forth.

450
00:17:35.960 --> 00:17:38.459
And Stephen's already initiated

451
00:17:38.460 --> 00:17:39.659
you to do the poem, so I don't have

452
00:17:39.660 --> 00:17:41.140
to tell you what a cotillion is.

453
00:17:43.150 --> 00:17:44.609
Cotillion photo.

454
00:17:44.610 --> 00:17:45.889
Let me look at my watch so we can

455
00:17:45.890 --> 00:17:46.890
see.

456
00:17:47.410 --> 00:17:49.229
These young women will last

457
00:17:49.230 --> 00:17:51.249
forever, posed like

458
00:17:51.250 --> 00:17:53.069
greyhounds, trapped

459
00:17:53.070 --> 00:17:55.149
in the silver crust of

460
00:17:55.150 --> 00:17:56.509
the frame.

461
00:17:56.510 --> 00:17:58.549
You can't tell one from another

462
00:17:58.550 --> 00:18:01.609
the breed is so pure.

463
00:18:01.610 --> 00:18:03.669
They will never run.

464
00:18:03.670 --> 00:18:05.669
Each one aloft on

465
00:18:05.670 --> 00:18:07.789
a frozen wave of white

466
00:18:07.790 --> 00:18:09.829
cotillion lace to

467
00:18:09.830 --> 00:18:11.849
resemble marriage,

468
00:18:11.850 --> 00:18:12.889
to resemble.

469
00:18:12.890 --> 00:18:13.890
fate.

470
00:18:14.750 --> 00:18:16.669
I remember July sun

471
00:18:16.670 --> 00:18:18.789
pouring down in a prickly

472
00:18:18.790 --> 00:18:20.949
meadow and a garter snake

473
00:18:20.950 --> 00:18:22.909
skin laid out like

474
00:18:22.910 --> 00:18:24.809
fairy lingerie on a

475
00:18:24.810 --> 00:18:25.810
stone wall.

476
00:18:26.690 --> 00:18:28.249
This was Connecticut.

477
00:18:29.330 --> 00:18:31.369
There would be a stone

478
00:18:31.370 --> 00:18:33.029
wall.

479
00:18:33.030 --> 00:18:34.949
Crickets were scraping marrow

480
00:18:34.950 --> 00:18:36.789
from the day.

481
00:18:36.790 --> 00:18:38.389
I was young.

482
00:18:38.390 --> 00:18:40.089
I'd been alone for leaks.

483
00:18:41.590 --> 00:18:43.689
I painted the meadow morning and

484
00:18:43.690 --> 00:18:45.669
afternoon, trying to capture

485
00:18:45.670 --> 00:18:47.689
the crackling sound with my

486
00:18:47.690 --> 00:18:49.149
brush.

487
00:18:49.150 --> 00:18:52.129
I was reading Oedipus Rex.

488
00:18:52.130 --> 00:18:54.129
I understood neither the

489
00:18:54.130 --> 00:18:56.249
snakeskin nor the

490
00:18:56.250 --> 00:18:57.250
play.

491
00:18:57.530 --> 00:18:59.529
Your life is one long

492
00:18:59.530 --> 00:19:01.809
night, said Oedepus

493
00:19:01.810 --> 00:19:04.149
to the prophet, Oedapus

494
00:19:04.150 --> 00:19:05.790
who saw nothing.

495
00:19:06.890 --> 00:19:08.729
Oak trees rustled

496
00:19:08.730 --> 00:19:10.059
in drought.

497
00:19:10.060 --> 00:19:12.339
In saffron grass, small

498
00:19:12.340 --> 00:19:14.119
creatures skittered.

499
00:19:14.120 --> 00:19:16.039
There came a day when I

500
00:19:16.040 --> 00:19:17.999
said to myself,

501
00:19:18.000 --> 00:19:19.839
I should prefer to

502
00:19:19.840 --> 00:19:20.840
sleep.

503
00:19:21.440 --> 00:19:23.659
Small planets tasted

504
00:19:23.660 --> 00:19:26.059
dry and bitter on

505
00:19:26.060 --> 00:19:27.719
my tongue.

506
00:19:27.720 --> 00:19:30.039
And two days later,

507
00:19:30.040 --> 00:19:32.039
I woke, alone

508
00:19:32.040 --> 00:19:33.939
in the creaking barn at

509
00:19:33.940 --> 00:19:36.119
dusk, not knowing what

510
00:19:36.120 --> 00:19:38.099
day, what month,

511
00:19:38.100 --> 00:19:39.309
what year.

512
00:19:39.310 --> 00:19:41.249
but feeling the hall of

513
00:19:41.250 --> 00:19:43.089
earth rolling on its

514
00:19:43.090 --> 00:19:44.209
way.

515
00:19:44.210 --> 00:19:46.189
It is not your fate that

516
00:19:46.190 --> 00:19:48.129
I should be your ruin, the

517
00:19:48.130 --> 00:19:49.130
prophet said.

518
00:19:50.090 --> 00:19:52.429
I moved my arms,

519
00:19:52.430 --> 00:19:53.849
my legs.

520
00:19:53.850 --> 00:19:55.689
I unclenched my hands

521
00:19:55.690 --> 00:19:57.689
and stood up dizzy from

522
00:19:57.690 --> 00:19:58.690
the cot.

523
00:19:59.390 --> 00:20:01.709
What was to come would

524
00:20:01.710 --> 00:20:03.809
come in its own good

525
00:20:03.810 --> 00:20:06.049
time outside the

526
00:20:06.050 --> 00:20:07.050
frame.

527
00:20:07.450 --> 00:20:09.429
The moon was rising above

528
00:20:09.430 --> 00:20:11.469
the hill, a shy

529
00:20:11.470 --> 00:20:13.869
wind gathered force,

530
00:20:13.870 --> 00:20:16.849
and trees in their black silhouettes

531
00:20:16.850 --> 00:20:17.929
linked arms.

532
00:20:19.790 --> 00:20:21.589
I'm just getting out my little list

533
00:20:21.590 --> 00:20:22.630
of poems here.

534
00:20:23.890 --> 00:20:25.749
This book was

535
00:20:25.750 --> 00:20:28.429
composed in

536
00:20:28.430 --> 00:20:30.549
the

537
00:20:30.550 --> 00:20:33.069
years just well

538
00:20:33.070 --> 00:20:34.169
during the first Trump

539
00:20:34.170 --> 00:20:37.049
administration, 2016.

540
00:20:37.050 --> 00:20:38.989
And it's

541
00:20:38.990 --> 00:20:39.990
haunted by.

542
00:20:43.379 --> 00:20:44.660
many degradations,

543
00:20:46.440 --> 00:20:47.800
some of which you'll hear about.

544
00:20:50.430 --> 00:20:52.229
I don't think, for me anyway,

545
00:20:52.230 --> 00:20:54.129
poetry's not an op-ed article, it's

546
00:20:54.130 --> 00:20:56.009
not a political tract,

547
00:20:56.010 --> 00:20:58.409
but my poems can't help but

548
00:20:58.410 --> 00:21:00.649
respond to

549
00:21:00.650 --> 00:21:02.629
the pressures of

550
00:21:02.630 --> 00:21:03.629
the time.

551
00:21:03.630 --> 00:21:05.709
So you'll feel some of those.

552
00:21:05.710 --> 00:21:07.789
In this poem, Shelf,

553
00:21:07.790 --> 00:21:09.769
the pressure of the times would

554
00:21:09.770 --> 00:21:12.229
take you back more to

555
00:21:12.230 --> 00:21:14.629
the genocide of the Armenians

556
00:21:14.630 --> 00:21:16.129
in the first part of the 20th

557
00:21:16.130 --> 00:21:17.410
century in Turkey.

558
00:21:20.660 --> 00:21:23.659
A human skull among the bibelo.

559
00:21:23.660 --> 00:21:25.639
Dust to dust, it all

560
00:21:25.640 --> 00:21:27.979
evens out on the shelf under

561
00:21:27.980 --> 00:21:30.099
a veil of gray.

562
00:21:30.100 --> 00:21:32.079
There was a think in that

563
00:21:32.080 --> 00:21:33.799
cavity once.

564
00:21:33.800 --> 00:21:35.919
I have forgotten whole

565
00:21:35.920 --> 00:21:38.399
years of my life.

566
00:21:38.400 --> 00:21:40.759
In those eye sockets once,

567
00:21:40.760 --> 00:21:41.760
surprise.

568
00:21:43.830 --> 00:21:45.749
You picked it up in a field

569
00:21:45.750 --> 00:21:47.169
in Turkey.

570
00:21:47.170 --> 00:21:49.029
A small head,

571
00:21:49.030 --> 00:21:51.529
a child, a youth.

572
00:21:51.530 --> 00:21:53.609
Who knows how he,

573
00:21:53.610 --> 00:21:55.589
she died.

574
00:21:55.590 --> 00:21:57.849
Though we can imagine,

575
00:21:57.850 --> 00:22:00.309
yes, horribly imagine,

576
00:22:00.310 --> 00:22:02.949
and so forget.

577
00:22:02.950 --> 00:22:05.109
Better look at the Kenyan statuette

578
00:22:05.110 --> 00:22:07.089
of a woman carrying a pot on

579
00:22:07.090 --> 00:22:09.289
her head, or the soapstone

580
00:22:09.290 --> 00:22:11.109
dove from Japan, or

581
00:22:11.110 --> 00:22:12.799
twisted driftwood.

582
00:22:12.800 --> 00:22:14.699
Why go looking for

583
00:22:14.700 --> 00:22:15.859
sorrow?

584
00:22:15.860 --> 00:22:17.839
Yet we look,

585
00:22:17.840 --> 00:22:19.219
we hunt.

586
00:22:19.220 --> 00:22:21.719
You probe the boiled mackerel

587
00:22:21.720 --> 00:22:23.959
head for every mite of

588
00:22:23.960 --> 00:22:25.239
sustenance.

589
00:22:25.240 --> 00:22:27.519
Brain, the tiny white

590
00:22:27.520 --> 00:22:29.619
golf balls of eyes,

591
00:22:29.620 --> 00:22:31.739
the fatty ribbon along the

592
00:22:31.740 --> 00:22:33.639
jaw, and augury

593
00:22:33.640 --> 00:22:35.599
in each bite.

594
00:22:35.600 --> 00:22:37.579
I don't want to

595
00:22:37.580 --> 00:22:39.579
remember how much pain I've

596
00:22:39.580 --> 00:22:40.999
caused.

597
00:22:41.000 --> 00:22:43.099
Centuries of war we

598
00:22:43.100 --> 00:22:45.119
store in our craniums,

599
00:22:45.120 --> 00:22:47.319
but in that skull,

600
00:22:47.320 --> 00:22:49.059
now crouched on the shelf,

601
00:22:50.240 --> 00:22:51.240
no echo,

602
00:22:52.120 --> 00:22:54.119
no prayer, only

603
00:22:54.120 --> 00:22:56.439
air, a relic

604
00:22:56.440 --> 00:22:57.440
of air.

605
00:23:00.830 --> 00:23:02.069
Let's see, I'm just sort of skipping

606
00:23:02.070 --> 00:23:03.070
through this book.

607
00:23:07.930 --> 00:23:09.310
Another fish is here.

608
00:23:11.660 --> 00:23:14.379
as if the

609
00:23:14.380 --> 00:23:16.439
massive grimy river

610
00:23:16.440 --> 00:23:18.639
shouldered its way toward

611
00:23:18.640 --> 00:23:19.659
the harbor.

612
00:23:19.660 --> 00:23:21.479
I stood under the

613
00:23:21.480 --> 00:23:23.399
ruckus of sky.

614
00:23:23.400 --> 00:23:25.819
The wind plucked awnings,

615
00:23:25.820 --> 00:23:28.659
plastic bags, newspapers,

616
00:23:28.660 --> 00:23:30.779
and sent the news twirling over

617
00:23:30.780 --> 00:23:32.759
corduroy waters.

618
00:23:32.760 --> 00:23:35.099
I'd meant to see art,

619
00:23:35.100 --> 00:23:37.959
but the plan miscarried.

620
00:23:37.960 --> 00:23:39.919
A guitarist stationed in a

621
00:23:39.920 --> 00:23:41.809
doorway. bent his head

622
00:23:41.810 --> 00:23:43.809
to rasp his ballad

623
00:23:43.810 --> 00:23:46.089
into the wind's sore throat.

624
00:23:47.130 --> 00:23:49.089
Rain light glossed the guitar

625
00:23:49.090 --> 00:23:50.949
strings and played its

626
00:23:50.950 --> 00:23:53.029
own tune, this

627
00:23:53.030 --> 00:23:54.909
city such a storm

628
00:23:54.910 --> 00:23:55.910
of wants.

629
00:23:57.010 --> 00:23:59.989
You have a right to your actions,

630
00:23:59.990 --> 00:24:02.149
but never to your action's

631
00:24:02.150 --> 00:24:03.929
fruits, said Krishna.

632
00:24:03.930 --> 00:24:05.989
in a book I read

633
00:24:05.990 --> 00:24:08.149
with all the et cetera

634
00:24:08.150 --> 00:24:10.249
about desire.

635
00:24:10.250 --> 00:24:11.250
and emptiness.

636
00:24:12.270 --> 00:24:14.389
What did I want?

637
00:24:14.390 --> 00:24:16.309
And why did I want it

638
00:24:16.310 --> 00:24:18.229
so hard?

639
00:24:18.230 --> 00:24:20.169
Not emptiness,

640
00:24:20.170 --> 00:24:22.429
but a self, like

641
00:24:22.430 --> 00:24:24.529
rain driven a slant

642
00:24:24.530 --> 00:24:26.529
the fence, the hacked

643
00:24:26.530 --> 00:24:28.349
at sycamore.

644
00:24:28.350 --> 00:24:30.329
That morning laid out on

645
00:24:30.330 --> 00:24:32.689
a marble slab at the store.

646
00:24:32.690 --> 00:24:34.909
The exposed red knob

647
00:24:34.910 --> 00:24:36.829
of a fish's heart kept

648
00:24:36.830 --> 00:24:39.029
its pulse in the butchered

649
00:24:39.030 --> 00:24:40.419
half creature.

650
00:24:40.420 --> 00:24:42.379
No gills,

651
00:24:42.380 --> 00:24:44.439
no head, no

652
00:24:44.440 --> 00:24:46.479
fins, no guts,

653
00:24:46.480 --> 00:24:47.899
no tail.

654
00:24:47.900 --> 00:24:49.939
Just the flat half body

655
00:24:49.940 --> 00:24:52.479
and spine and the heart

656
00:24:52.480 --> 00:24:54.599
blurping and shuddering

657
00:24:54.600 --> 00:24:56.699
in its own obstinate

658
00:24:56.700 --> 00:24:57.700
rhythm.

659
00:24:59.220 --> 00:25:00.480
it seemed to say.

660
00:25:02.820 --> 00:25:04.199
Idiot.

661
00:25:04.200 --> 00:25:05.720
You ever could be free.

662
00:25:10.440 --> 00:25:12.059
The middle of this book has a

663
00:25:12.060 --> 00:25:13.879
sequence of poems about

664
00:25:13.880 --> 00:25:15.899
remarkable artistic

665
00:25:15.900 --> 00:25:17.459
women.

666
00:25:17.460 --> 00:25:19.679
It's a title stolen from

667
00:25:19.680 --> 00:25:21.679
Chaucer, Legend

668
00:25:21.680 --> 00:25:23.519
of Good Women.

669
00:25:23.520 --> 00:25:25.099
And most of them are not necessarily

670
00:25:25.100 --> 00:25:26.100
very good.

671
00:25:27.740 --> 00:25:29.559
But here's one,

672
00:25:29.560 --> 00:25:31.959
one of the sequences is the

673
00:25:31.960 --> 00:25:34.039
clothing designer Coco

674
00:25:34.040 --> 00:25:35.379
Chanel.

675
00:25:35.380 --> 00:25:37.539
A genius, I think, a genius of

676
00:25:37.540 --> 00:25:38.489
design.

677
00:25:38.490 --> 00:25:40.310
and a moral monster.

678
00:25:42.949 --> 00:25:43.949
Chanel,

679
00:25:45.130 --> 00:25:47.129
with an epigraph from Chanel.

680
00:25:47.130 --> 00:25:49.089
A garment should be logical.

681
00:25:50.810 --> 00:25:52.749
Yes, I made the perfume,

682
00:25:52.750 --> 00:25:54.089
yes.

683
00:25:54.090 --> 00:25:56.129
I am an orphan.

684
00:25:56.130 --> 00:25:58.509
Light my cigarette.

685
00:25:58.510 --> 00:26:00.189
Just so.

686
00:26:00.190 --> 00:26:02.069
The perfect profile,

687
00:26:02.070 --> 00:26:04.169
entalioed in air.

688
00:26:04.170 --> 00:26:06.129
Now let the hems

689
00:26:06.130 --> 00:26:07.289
down.

690
00:26:07.290 --> 00:26:09.329
Now we slash the

691
00:26:09.330 --> 00:26:10.309
collar.

692
00:26:10.310 --> 00:26:12.659
And when a man enters,

693
00:26:12.660 --> 00:26:14.519
Always make him

694
00:26:14.520 --> 00:26:15.799
pay.

695
00:26:15.800 --> 00:26:17.659
Always astray prints

696
00:26:17.660 --> 00:26:20.959
around before the casino closes.

697
00:26:20.960 --> 00:26:23.319
This century tilts.

698
00:26:23.320 --> 00:26:26.459
I'm good at sphinxing.

699
00:26:26.460 --> 00:26:29.099
Elegance excludes.

700
00:26:29.100 --> 00:26:31.899
I exclude milk,

701
00:26:31.900 --> 00:26:34.319
waste, tears,

702
00:26:34.320 --> 00:26:35.259
uterus.

703
00:26:35.260 --> 00:26:37.139
Do I remember the large

704
00:26:37.140 --> 00:26:38.680
colored orphanage halls?

705
00:26:41.030 --> 00:26:42.749
I refuse.

706
00:26:42.750 --> 00:26:44.749
Place a Cora Mandel screen in

707
00:26:44.750 --> 00:26:46.729
front of the car wreck in your

708
00:26:46.730 --> 00:26:48.869
world war, my

709
00:26:48.870 --> 00:26:50.549
demi-monde.

710
00:26:50.550 --> 00:26:52.729
We live in an age with no

711
00:26:52.730 --> 00:26:54.769
interiors, and his blood

712
00:26:54.770 --> 00:26:56.629
scrawled the pavement by the

713
00:26:56.630 --> 00:26:58.229
crumpled car.

714
00:26:58.230 --> 00:27:00.409
Embellishment gives way to line

715
00:27:00.410 --> 00:27:02.529
and ease of motion,

716
00:27:02.530 --> 00:27:05.069
a Bugatti flair,

717
00:27:05.070 --> 00:27:07.129
wealth assuming the proportion

718
00:27:07.130 --> 00:27:09.279
of catastrophe.

719
00:27:09.280 --> 00:27:11.359
And if the other was a German

720
00:27:11.360 --> 00:27:12.360
officer,

721
00:27:13.260 --> 00:27:15.339
I'm on my knees with a

722
00:27:15.340 --> 00:27:17.639
corona of pins bristling

723
00:27:17.640 --> 00:27:19.459
from my lips.

724
00:27:19.460 --> 00:27:21.600
It's not adoration.

725
00:27:22.740 --> 00:27:24.039
It's revenge.

726
00:27:26.820 --> 00:27:27.980
Anyway, she's quite a lady.

727
00:27:30.840 --> 00:27:32.659
I'll end from this

728
00:27:32.660 --> 00:27:33.519
book.

729
00:27:33.520 --> 00:27:36.239
I got very fascinated by

730
00:27:36.240 --> 00:27:38.379
the pre-Socratic philosophers.

731
00:27:38.380 --> 00:27:40.279
I had loved Heraclitus when I was

732
00:27:40.280 --> 00:27:41.579
a kid. I think a lot of us read

733
00:27:41.580 --> 00:27:42.639
Heraclites when we're young.

734
00:27:42.640 --> 00:27:44.539
But then I got interested in

735
00:27:44.540 --> 00:27:47.199
Thales and Anaximander.

736
00:27:47.200 --> 00:27:49.180
So here's Anaximandar.

737
00:27:51.770 --> 00:27:53.489
that the earth is suspended.

738
00:27:54.930 --> 00:27:56.869
Scylla is a purple flower,

739
00:27:58.170 --> 00:27:59.910
that the Earth is suspended,

740
00:28:01.190 --> 00:28:03.129
as Scyllia prinks purple from

741
00:28:03.130 --> 00:28:05.129
half-thawed clods,

742
00:28:05.130 --> 00:28:06.989
and the cardinal flings his

743
00:28:06.990 --> 00:28:08.889
ribbon of song in two

744
00:28:08.890 --> 00:28:11.029
high arcs, then trails

745
00:28:11.030 --> 00:28:14.009
the vibrato among the boughs.

746
00:28:14.010 --> 00:28:16.589
May unclenches,

747
00:28:16.590 --> 00:28:18.049
but not enough.

748
00:28:18.050 --> 00:28:20.349
Buds, grape,

749
00:28:20.350 --> 00:28:21.859
fetal leaves.

750
00:28:21.860 --> 00:28:23.799
Each night scatters

751
00:28:23.800 --> 00:28:24.799
frost.

752
00:28:24.800 --> 00:28:26.699
On sidewalks we tread

753
00:28:26.700 --> 00:28:28.079
on broken sky.

754
00:28:29.260 --> 00:28:31.259
You are sick and

755
00:28:31.260 --> 00:28:32.819
far away.

756
00:28:32.820 --> 00:28:35.019
The world is in flux,

757
00:28:35.020 --> 00:28:36.979
said Anaximander.

758
00:28:36.980 --> 00:28:38.819
Worlds are born,

759
00:28:38.820 --> 00:28:41.259
appear, and disappear.

760
00:28:41.260 --> 00:28:43.139
We perish, even

761
00:28:43.140 --> 00:28:45.539
the gods fade.

762
00:28:45.540 --> 00:28:48.099
Spare me the industrial daffodils

763
00:28:48.100 --> 00:28:50.759
poking through scraps of snow.

764
00:28:50.760 --> 00:28:52.959
The season will have its

765
00:28:52.960 --> 00:28:55.099
hard birth and we

766
00:28:55.100 --> 00:28:57.219
will be dragged into

767
00:28:57.220 --> 00:28:58.459
light.

768
00:28:58.460 --> 00:29:00.339
For how many years has

769
00:29:00.340 --> 00:29:02.239
that ill corroded your

770
00:29:02.240 --> 00:29:03.559
gut?

771
00:29:03.560 --> 00:29:05.659
Whirlwinds, typhoons break

772
00:29:05.660 --> 00:29:07.519
out of the cloud, the

773
00:29:07.520 --> 00:29:09.659
tearing makes thunder, the crack

774
00:29:09.660 --> 00:29:12.739
against black makes the flash.

775
00:29:12.740 --> 00:29:15.159
So natural philosophy

776
00:29:15.160 --> 00:29:16.160
began.

777
00:29:16.950 --> 00:29:19.169
You watched glaciers slide

778
00:29:19.170 --> 00:29:20.989
and crash at the tip of the

779
00:29:20.990 --> 00:29:23.029
earth. You floated on a rope

780
00:29:23.030 --> 00:29:25.069
into ice crevasses to catch

781
00:29:25.070 --> 00:29:27.849
the gleam and the groan.

782
00:29:27.850 --> 00:29:29.889
Ice sculpted the planet

783
00:29:29.890 --> 00:29:31.969
and sculpts it still.

784
00:29:31.970 --> 00:29:34.009
You hammered aluminum into

785
00:29:34.010 --> 00:29:35.389
that shape.

786
00:29:35.390 --> 00:29:37.529
The stars are a wheel of

787
00:29:37.530 --> 00:29:39.389
fire, broken off from

788
00:29:39.390 --> 00:29:41.509
earth fire, surrounded by

789
00:29:41.510 --> 00:29:42.829
air.

790
00:29:42.830 --> 00:29:44.750
We came from the unlimited.

791
00:29:46.650 --> 00:29:48.489
We return.

792
00:29:48.490 --> 00:29:50.609
So taught Anaximander

793
00:29:50.610 --> 00:29:52.589
of Miletus, who

794
00:29:52.590 --> 00:29:54.729
thought we would be

795
00:29:54.730 --> 00:29:55.730
destroyed.

796
00:29:57.330 --> 00:29:59.269
The U in this poem, I mean

797
00:29:59.270 --> 00:30:00.669
not all my poems are

798
00:30:00.670 --> 00:30:02.069
autobiographical, some of them quite

799
00:30:02.070 --> 00:30:03.609
fictional, but in this case there is

800
00:30:03.610 --> 00:30:05.469
a real U who is my brother

801
00:30:05.470 --> 00:30:07.729
who is a sculptor who

802
00:30:07.730 --> 00:30:09.629
was one of the first artists to

803
00:30:09.630 --> 00:30:10.729
get a grant from the National

804
00:30:10.730 --> 00:30:12.209
Science Foundation to go on a ship

805
00:30:12.210 --> 00:30:14.269
to Antarctica, this was years ago,

806
00:30:14.270 --> 00:30:16.129
and for six weeks he

807
00:30:16.130 --> 00:30:17.299
was.

808
00:30:17.300 --> 00:30:19.179
rappelling down into crevasses

809
00:30:19.180 --> 00:30:21.099
and taking pictures and drawing,

810
00:30:21.100 --> 00:30:22.979
and then spent years making

811
00:30:22.980 --> 00:30:24.359
sculptures.

812
00:30:24.360 --> 00:30:25.979
And he was ill for a while after

813
00:30:25.980 --> 00:30:27.559
that. Thank goodness he's recovered,

814
00:30:27.560 --> 00:30:28.560
I'm glad to see.

815
00:30:29.820 --> 00:30:31.699
And I'll read now from this new

816
00:30:31.700 --> 00:30:33.599
book, Hindsight,

817
00:30:33.600 --> 00:30:35.260
which is coming out in September.

818
00:30:37.650 --> 00:30:39.469
This book, the poems in

819
00:30:39.470 --> 00:30:42.049
this book, of this new book,

820
00:30:42.050 --> 00:30:44.049
were all composed between 2020,

821
00:30:44.050 --> 00:30:46.189
that is in the thick of

822
00:30:46.190 --> 00:30:47.190
the pandemic.

823
00:30:50.160 --> 00:30:52.019
and increasing terror about

824
00:30:52.020 --> 00:30:53.020
the.

825
00:30:54.439 --> 00:30:56.339
disintegration of democracy in

826
00:30:56.340 --> 00:30:57.340
this country.

827
00:30:59.020 --> 00:31:00.020
So speaking of pressures,

828
00:31:01.060 --> 00:31:03.039
there are pressures in

829
00:31:03.040 --> 00:31:04.779
these poems. They're not explicitly

830
00:31:04.780 --> 00:31:05.780
political.

831
00:31:08.500 --> 00:31:10.519
They can't help but reflect

832
00:31:10.520 --> 00:31:13.379
an

833
00:31:13.380 --> 00:31:15.319
unusual time in this country,

834
00:31:15.320 --> 00:31:16.399
to put it mildly.

835
00:31:16.400 --> 00:31:18.219
This poem, A New Year, came

836
00:31:18.220 --> 00:31:19.619
out of the New Yorker a couple of

837
00:31:19.620 --> 00:31:20.759
years ago.

838
00:31:20.760 --> 00:31:22.459
And when I wrote it, things were

839
00:31:22.460 --> 00:31:23.939
bad, but they weren't as bad as

840
00:31:23.940 --> 00:31:25.219
they've curiously gotten.

841
00:31:26.380 --> 00:31:28.319
And there's a sense here of,

842
00:31:28.320 --> 00:31:30.059
I use the word revenge in the Chanel

843
00:31:30.060 --> 00:31:31.279
poem. There's a different kind of

844
00:31:31.280 --> 00:31:33.199
revenge, I think, intuited

845
00:31:33.200 --> 00:31:34.839
in this poem about a country that's

846
00:31:34.840 --> 00:31:35.840
very unhappy.

847
00:31:37.010 --> 00:31:38.649
populations, plural, very unhappy in

848
00:31:38.650 --> 00:31:40.369
different ways, some of them wanting

849
00:31:40.370 --> 00:31:41.370
revenge.

850
00:31:43.140 --> 00:31:45.559
All of that has become clearer since

851
00:31:45.560 --> 00:31:46.760
the election in November

852
00:31:47.900 --> 00:31:49.819
and since, OK, what we

853
00:31:49.820 --> 00:31:50.820
know.

854
00:31:51.260 --> 00:31:53.139
And so this poem has

855
00:31:53.140 --> 00:31:54.759
had another life.

856
00:31:54.760 --> 00:31:56.619
The New Yorker, then

857
00:31:56.620 --> 00:31:58.199
it was in the Best American Poetry,

858
00:31:58.200 --> 00:31:59.459
then it's in the New York or 100

859
00:31:59.460 --> 00:32:01.019
poems for 100 years.

860
00:32:01.020 --> 00:32:02.619
So I'm reading it now.

861
00:32:05.120 --> 00:32:07.399
I'm holding my head because

862
00:32:07.400 --> 00:32:09.519
I'm frankly so frightened about

863
00:32:09.520 --> 00:32:10.520
this country.

864
00:32:11.320 --> 00:32:12.320
A new year.

865
00:32:15.100 --> 00:32:16.999
Was it myself I

866
00:32:17.000 --> 00:32:18.000
left behind?

867
00:32:19.120 --> 00:32:20.979
Or was the country letting

868
00:32:20.980 --> 00:32:22.839
go of itself at

869
00:32:22.840 --> 00:32:24.879
each clackety clack as

870
00:32:24.880 --> 00:32:27.279
the train rattled northward

871
00:32:27.280 --> 00:32:29.579
into dusk?

872
00:32:29.580 --> 00:32:31.599
Girders flashed by,

873
00:32:31.600 --> 00:32:33.919
the ghosts of factories.

874
00:32:33.920 --> 00:32:36.019
Then frozen fields,

875
00:32:36.020 --> 00:32:37.879
their stubble narrowly laid

876
00:32:37.880 --> 00:32:40.199
out in an ancient,

877
00:32:40.200 --> 00:32:42.319
foreign, indecipherable script.

878
00:32:43.350 --> 00:32:45.289
New solitudes flared

879
00:32:45.290 --> 00:32:47.829
on the smutty pane,

880
00:32:47.830 --> 00:32:50.189
as if I were aging faster

881
00:32:50.190 --> 00:32:52.669
than the engine's hurtle.

882
00:32:52.670 --> 00:32:54.589
While the Hudson shoved

883
00:32:54.590 --> 00:32:56.449
its massive, wrinkled

884
00:32:56.450 --> 00:32:58.509
drowse south,

885
00:32:58.510 --> 00:33:00.589
dreaming at its own pace,

886
00:33:00.590 --> 00:33:02.809
the drowned river,

887
00:33:02.810 --> 00:33:04.629
carrying thousands of years

888
00:33:04.630 --> 00:33:06.829
of sediment through torn

889
00:33:06.830 --> 00:33:08.470
uterus of rock,

890
00:33:09.550 --> 00:33:11.749
angry signs slashed

891
00:33:11.750 --> 00:33:13.069
the shadows.

892
00:33:13.070 --> 00:33:15.289
Wrecked cars stacked

893
00:33:15.290 --> 00:33:17.429
in yards, tilting

894
00:33:17.430 --> 00:33:19.429
fences, sheds

895
00:33:19.430 --> 00:33:21.130
pledged revenge.

896
00:33:22.270 --> 00:33:24.349
Then a whoosh of snow

897
00:33:24.350 --> 00:33:26.249
tattered the trees

898
00:33:26.250 --> 00:33:28.329
and night swallowed

899
00:33:28.330 --> 00:33:29.330
us whole.

900
00:33:30.610 --> 00:33:32.489
Till dawn, jerking

901
00:33:32.490 --> 00:33:34.329
me from my birth,

902
00:33:34.330 --> 00:33:36.629
broke over Indiana's frost-bitten

903
00:33:36.630 --> 00:33:38.469
furrows, A country

904
00:33:38.470 --> 00:33:40.389
graveyard slotted

905
00:33:40.390 --> 00:33:41.390
among farms.

906
00:33:43.530 --> 00:33:45.869
You could say this is a train poem.

907
00:33:45.870 --> 00:33:47.569
I taught for 10 years at the

908
00:33:47.570 --> 00:33:49.369
University of Chicago, and a lot of

909
00:33:49.370 --> 00:33:51.249
my family life was in New

910
00:33:51.250 --> 00:33:53.429
York, so I hate flying.

911
00:33:53.430 --> 00:33:55.469
So I would take the overnight train

912
00:33:55.470 --> 00:33:57.489
twice a season from New

913
00:33:57.490 --> 00:33:58.889
York to Chicago and then back.

914
00:33:58.890 --> 00:34:00.409
So I know that line.

915
00:34:00.410 --> 00:34:02.269
First it goes north from New york up

916
00:34:02.270 --> 00:34:04.149
to Hudson to Albany

917
00:34:04.150 --> 00:34:05.150
and then it heads.

918
00:34:07.000 --> 00:34:08.879
So a train pole,

919
00:34:08.880 --> 00:34:09.880
among other things.

920
00:34:12.770 --> 00:34:14.749
Ah, Dead

921
00:34:14.750 --> 00:34:16.549
Flowers, some of you may remember

922
00:34:16.550 --> 00:34:18.468
that pop song, it was

923
00:34:18.469 --> 00:34:21.229
the Rolling Stones song,

924
00:34:21.230 --> 00:34:22.468
Dead flowers.

925
00:34:22.469 --> 00:34:24.509
So this is, I stole their title

926
00:34:24.510 --> 00:34:26.329
and one of

927
00:34:26.330 --> 00:34:27.330
their lines.

928
00:34:29.060 --> 00:34:30.060
Dead Flowers.

929
00:34:31.920 --> 00:34:33.959
If you hurt yourself before

930
00:34:33.960 --> 00:34:35.919
someone else hurts you, is

931
00:34:35.920 --> 00:34:38.339
that homeopathic?

932
00:34:38.340 --> 00:34:40.419
Watch me prick poison

933
00:34:40.420 --> 00:34:41.859
into my skin.

934
00:34:41.860 --> 00:34:43.819
Sign my name in

935
00:34:43.820 --> 00:34:44.599
pain.

936
00:34:44.600 --> 00:34:46.859
Watch me miss the appointment,

937
00:34:46.860 --> 00:34:48.459
cancel the call.

938
00:34:48.460 --> 00:34:50.499
Watch me gulp smoke

939
00:34:50.500 --> 00:34:52.579
and receive a certificate of

940
00:34:52.580 --> 00:34:54.459
enlightenment between the

941
00:34:54.460 --> 00:34:56.379
smeared egg yolk horizon

942
00:34:56.380 --> 00:34:58.379
to the west and the bone

943
00:34:58.380 --> 00:35:00.829
white. eastern sky.

944
00:35:00.830 --> 00:35:02.669
The emperor appoints me

945
00:35:02.670 --> 00:35:04.509
to the poetry bureau and

946
00:35:04.510 --> 00:35:06.809
I declare myself queen

947
00:35:06.810 --> 00:35:08.949
of the underground.

948
00:35:08.950 --> 00:35:10.769
On the back road, the turkey

949
00:35:10.770 --> 00:35:12.729
vulture plucked the guts

950
00:35:12.730 --> 00:35:15.209
from the squashed squirrel then

951
00:35:15.210 --> 00:35:17.229
flapped up to the dead

952
00:35:17.230 --> 00:35:19.549
branch of the shag bark hickory

953
00:35:19.550 --> 00:35:21.969
to examine us

954
00:35:21.970 --> 00:35:24.749
examining the carcass.

955
00:35:24.750 --> 00:35:27.049
O sacerdotal bird,

956
00:35:27.050 --> 00:35:28.969
with your crimson scalp

957
00:35:28.970 --> 00:35:31.209
and glossy vestments,

958
00:35:31.210 --> 00:35:33.189
teach us to translate

959
00:35:33.190 --> 00:35:35.009
the spasm, the

960
00:35:35.010 --> 00:35:37.069
cry, the disintegrating

961
00:35:37.070 --> 00:35:39.829
flesh, the regret.

962
00:35:39.830 --> 00:35:41.669
What can be made of

963
00:35:41.670 --> 00:35:44.389
all this grief?

964
00:35:44.390 --> 00:35:46.949
Over the butter yellow,

965
00:35:46.950 --> 00:35:49.309
humming, feather-grast,

966
00:35:49.310 --> 00:35:51.509
midday meadow, skim

967
00:35:51.510 --> 00:35:54.309
the shadows of vultures.

968
00:35:54.310 --> 00:35:56.409
Ghostly, six-foot

969
00:35:56.410 --> 00:35:58.069
wingspan.

970
00:35:58.070 --> 00:36:01.409
V, swift as signature,

971
00:36:01.410 --> 00:36:03.769
turning death into speed.

972
00:36:06.880 --> 00:36:09.259
In a way, I think the line,

973
00:36:09.260 --> 00:36:11.359
what can be made of

974
00:36:11.360 --> 00:36:12.360
all this grief,

975
00:36:13.520 --> 00:36:15.099
later when I was putting this book

976
00:36:15.100 --> 00:36:16.639
together, I thought, well, maybe

977
00:36:16.640 --> 00:36:18.619
that's what I'm asking about

978
00:36:18.620 --> 00:36:20.599
in all these poems, what can be of

979
00:36:20.600 --> 00:36:22.259
all his grief. And maybe it was a

980
00:36:22.260 --> 00:36:24.559
line for what can be made in life,

981
00:36:24.560 --> 00:36:25.560
too.

982
00:36:25.900 --> 00:36:27.789
My intimate partner.

983
00:36:27.790 --> 00:36:29.029
I don't like the word partnered so

984
00:36:29.030 --> 00:36:30.489
legal. My beloved is a

985
00:36:30.490 --> 00:36:31.369
mathematician.

986
00:36:31.370 --> 00:36:33.289
So this poem is in a sense for him.

987
00:36:33.290 --> 00:36:34.929
We live for two years during COVID

988
00:36:34.930 --> 00:36:36.609
and we retreated to a very rough

989
00:36:36.610 --> 00:36:38.190
cabin in the Catskill Mountains.

990
00:36:39.810 --> 00:36:41.249
And there are a lot of animals

991
00:36:41.250 --> 00:36:43.229
around, bears in

992
00:36:43.230 --> 00:36:45.369
the summer and fall and

993
00:36:45.370 --> 00:36:47.029
less snakes in the Summer.

994
00:36:47.030 --> 00:36:49.029
And I'm scared, very scared

995
00:36:49.030 --> 00:36:50.049
of snakes.

996
00:36:50.050 --> 00:36:51.429
So here's a snake poem.

997
00:36:54.420 --> 00:36:55.599
It makes me tremble even to think

998
00:36:55.600 --> 00:36:56.579
about them, but there are a lot of

999
00:36:56.580 --> 00:36:58.059
snakes there.

1000
00:36:58.060 --> 00:36:59.060
Number theory.

1001
00:37:00.880 --> 00:37:02.420
The four and a half.

1002
00:37:04.810 --> 00:37:07.249
rat-snake swayed

1003
00:37:07.250 --> 00:37:09.509
up and across the kitchen screen

1004
00:37:09.510 --> 00:37:11.709
door, seeking a

1005
00:37:11.710 --> 00:37:13.909
way in.

1006
00:37:13.910 --> 00:37:16.029
Encountering, instead,

1007
00:37:16.030 --> 00:37:18.769
our eyes, it slowly,

1008
00:37:18.770 --> 00:37:20.649
deliberately withdrew to

1009
00:37:20.650 --> 00:37:22.829
slide across the stone

1010
00:37:22.830 --> 00:37:24.849
porch, over the wall,

1011
00:37:24.850 --> 00:37:27.129
and along the foundation,

1012
00:37:27.130 --> 00:37:29.589
inspecting every crevice,

1013
00:37:29.590 --> 00:37:32.029
feeling, nosing, listening

1014
00:37:32.030 --> 00:37:33.739
its way.

1015
00:37:33.740 --> 00:37:35.879
toward a solution which

1016
00:37:35.880 --> 00:37:37.999
it found around the corner

1017
00:37:38.000 --> 00:37:39.859
up, the back flag

1018
00:37:39.860 --> 00:37:42.079
stone steps where it

1019
00:37:42.080 --> 00:37:44.459
squeezed its impossible

1020
00:37:44.460 --> 00:37:46.879
length and girth

1021
00:37:46.880 --> 00:37:49.199
inch by patterned

1022
00:37:49.200 --> 00:37:51.039
inch into the crack

1023
00:37:51.040 --> 00:37:53.239
beneath the topmost

1024
00:37:53.240 --> 00:37:54.599
slate.

1025
00:37:54.600 --> 00:37:56.639
So we

1026
00:37:56.640 --> 00:37:58.579
know we're living with

1027
00:37:58.580 --> 00:38:00.799
a patient companion

1028
00:38:00.800 --> 00:38:02.879
Like you.

1029
00:38:02.880 --> 00:38:04.419
Inquisitive.

1030
00:38:04.420 --> 00:38:06.459
You sit taught in

1031
00:38:06.460 --> 00:38:08.739
your chair whispering as

1032
00:38:08.740 --> 00:38:10.559
you probe the gaps

1033
00:38:10.560 --> 00:38:13.259
between prime numbers

1034
00:38:13.260 --> 00:38:16.339
until infinity is

1035
00:38:16.340 --> 00:38:18.539
pattern you seek,

1036
00:38:18.540 --> 00:38:20.459
the opening through which

1037
00:38:20.460 --> 00:38:22.539
your thought will glide

1038
00:38:22.540 --> 00:38:24.619
suddenly into a lit

1039
00:38:24.620 --> 00:38:26.499
space and be at

1040
00:38:26.500 --> 00:38:28.339
home in a shaky

1041
00:38:28.340 --> 00:38:30.679
house where wasps

1042
00:38:30.680 --> 00:38:31.900
gnaw the walls.

1043
00:38:33.860 --> 00:38:35.799
I was very proud, this poem also

1044
00:38:35.800 --> 00:38:38.479
came out in the New Yorker, and I

1045
00:38:38.480 --> 00:38:40.499
got a letter from a mathematician in

1046
00:38:40.500 --> 00:38:42.879
England saying,

1047
00:38:42.880 --> 00:38:44.839
this describes my whole theory of

1048
00:38:44.840 --> 00:38:46.339
mathematics, can I quote this poem

1049
00:38:46.340 --> 00:38:47.399
in my book?

1050
00:38:47.400 --> 00:38:48.899
So I thought, fantastic!

1051
00:38:51.600 --> 00:38:53.219
good that mathematics,

1052
00:38:54.820 --> 00:38:56.659
some mathematicians tell me, is a

1053
00:38:56.660 --> 00:38:57.979
shaky house.

1054
00:38:57.980 --> 00:38:59.979
It's not as solid as

1055
00:38:59.980 --> 00:39:00.980
some people think.

1056
00:39:01.980 --> 00:39:03.839
A lot of it's built, I say this,

1057
00:39:03.840 --> 00:39:05.139
I'm not at all a mathematician, but

1058
00:39:05.140 --> 00:39:07.379
I live with mathematicians.

1059
00:39:07.380 --> 00:39:09.019
Based on conjectures, not theorems

1060
00:39:09.020 --> 00:39:11.119
necessarily, you pile a conjecture

1061
00:39:11.120 --> 00:39:12.639
on a conjoncture on conjoncture and

1062
00:39:12.640 --> 00:39:13.820
it's a little shaky.

1063
00:39:15.880 --> 00:39:16.960
Okay, enough about math.

1064
00:39:20.220 --> 00:39:21.760
But I find it very cool.

1065
00:39:23.620 --> 00:39:25.279
This is another poem from that cabin

1066
00:39:25.280 --> 00:39:26.280
in the woods.

1067
00:39:27.820 --> 00:39:29.759
And the title, Offices,

1068
00:39:29.760 --> 00:39:31.639
refers to the canonical

1069
00:39:31.640 --> 00:39:33.839
Christian prayers, both in the

1070
00:39:33.840 --> 00:39:35.839
Eastern Christian churches and the

1071
00:39:35.840 --> 00:39:37.079
Western Christian churches.

1072
00:39:37.080 --> 00:39:38.999
The canonical prayers during the day

1073
00:39:39.000 --> 00:39:40.979
from Matins, the prayer

1074
00:39:40.980 --> 00:39:43.619
of the morning, Compline is the

1075
00:39:43.620 --> 00:39:45.079
prayer in the evening, and Nones,

1076
00:39:45.080 --> 00:39:47.479
which appears, is mid-afternoon.

1077
00:39:47.480 --> 00:39:49.119
Offices.

1078
00:39:50.800 --> 00:39:52.679
In our monastery, crickets

1079
00:39:52.680 --> 00:39:54.599
rattle castanets down

1080
00:39:54.600 --> 00:39:56.519
the long avenues of day

1081
00:39:56.520 --> 00:39:59.059
and under the arches of night.

1082
00:39:59.060 --> 00:40:01.259
In our Monastery,

1083
00:40:01.260 --> 00:40:03.519
squads of dragonflies patrol

1084
00:40:03.520 --> 00:40:05.499
the meadow, unzipping

1085
00:40:05.500 --> 00:40:07.639
lines of sight, while

1086
00:40:07.640 --> 00:40:09.759
ferns crinkle into bronze

1087
00:40:09.760 --> 00:40:12.739
and monardas quail.

1088
00:40:12.740 --> 00:40:14.739
Queen Anne's lace prays

1089
00:40:14.740 --> 00:40:16.859
the surplus of tall grass.

1090
00:40:16.860 --> 00:40:18.799
and before knowns

1091
00:40:18.800 --> 00:40:20.639
the hawk. dives into the

1092
00:40:20.640 --> 00:40:22.739
mountain laurel, but swerves

1093
00:40:22.740 --> 00:40:24.979
up with angry, empty

1094
00:40:24.980 --> 00:40:27.019
talons, a flash of

1095
00:40:27.020 --> 00:40:28.879
white belly feathers and

1096
00:40:28.880 --> 00:40:30.359
ankle tufts.

1097
00:40:30.360 --> 00:40:32.399
In our monastery,

1098
00:40:32.400 --> 00:40:34.479
before the storm, maples

1099
00:40:34.480 --> 00:40:36.719
and white pines thrash

1100
00:40:36.720 --> 00:40:38.819
with dry heaves and

1101
00:40:38.820 --> 00:40:40.839
thunder rackets around the

1102
00:40:40.840 --> 00:40:42.819
cloistered horizon, as if

1103
00:40:42.820 --> 00:40:45.119
an enraged dog had

1104
00:40:45.120 --> 00:40:47.429
seized the sky in his teeth.

1105
00:40:47.430 --> 00:40:49.569
and we're shaking it back and

1106
00:40:49.570 --> 00:40:51.489
forth until the stuffing

1107
00:40:51.490 --> 00:40:53.089
falls out.

1108
00:40:53.090 --> 00:40:55.109
But in the long drought

1109
00:40:55.110 --> 00:40:57.029
days, silences

1110
00:40:57.030 --> 00:40:59.309
steepen into abandoned

1111
00:40:59.310 --> 00:41:01.269
quarries and old

1112
00:41:01.270 --> 00:41:02.429
wells.

1113
00:41:02.430 --> 00:41:04.349
The gaps between your

1114
00:41:04.350 --> 00:41:06.489
prime numbers pulse like

1115
00:41:06.490 --> 00:41:09.329
the space between stars.

1116
00:41:09.330 --> 00:41:11.309
We live close

1117
00:41:11.310 --> 00:41:12.989
to the bone.

1118
00:41:12.990 --> 00:41:15.569
Your fingers on my spine,

1119
00:41:15.570 --> 00:41:17.639
primal shudder.

1120
00:41:17.640 --> 00:41:19.899
of an ancient code.

1121
00:41:19.900 --> 00:41:22.039
When I rise in the night and

1122
00:41:22.040 --> 00:41:23.999
feel my way back to

1123
00:41:24.000 --> 00:41:26.039
bed in the dark,

1124
00:41:26.040 --> 00:41:28.299
one hand on the door,

1125
00:41:28.300 --> 00:41:30.239
one fumbling along the

1126
00:41:30.240 --> 00:41:32.479
wall, it's my mother's

1127
00:41:32.480 --> 00:41:35.039
ghost who touches me.

1128
00:41:35.040 --> 00:41:37.699
Do I understand now

1129
00:41:37.700 --> 00:41:40.039
how she felt in

1130
00:41:40.040 --> 00:41:42.199
her cavern of ruined

1131
00:41:42.200 --> 00:41:43.679
sight?

1132
00:41:43.680 --> 00:41:45.999
Keep watch, dear Lord,

1133
00:41:46.000 --> 00:41:48.299
with those who were

1134
00:41:48.300 --> 00:41:50.379
or watch or weep

1135
00:41:50.380 --> 00:41:52.219
this night, hide

1136
00:41:52.220 --> 00:41:54.059
us under the shadow

1137
00:41:54.060 --> 00:41:56.079
of your wings.

1138
00:41:56.080 --> 00:41:58.459
How slowly we

1139
00:41:58.460 --> 00:42:01.019
learn, complin'

1140
00:42:01.020 --> 00:42:02.839
in the watches of the

1141
00:42:02.840 --> 00:42:03.840
night.

1142
00:42:06.020 --> 00:42:07.020
Let's see.

1143
00:42:12.520 --> 00:42:14.339
I spent a lot of time up

1144
00:42:14.340 --> 00:42:16.079
in the woods.

1145
00:42:16.080 --> 00:42:18.659
So this is another woods poem.

1146
00:42:18.660 --> 00:42:20.799
This poem is called Gaul.

1147
00:42:20.800 --> 00:42:22.739
And I was interested walking in

1148
00:42:22.740 --> 00:42:24.519
the mountains there.

1149
00:42:24.520 --> 00:42:26.599
And I'd find these little paper

1150
00:42:26.600 --> 00:42:29.119
balls. They seemed like paper,

1151
00:42:29.120 --> 00:42:30.459
about this big.

1152
00:42:30.460 --> 00:42:31.459
At first, I didn't know what they

1153
00:42:31.460 --> 00:42:32.719
were. Perhaps you know.

1154
00:42:32.720 --> 00:42:34.719
I learned that they were called oak

1155
00:42:34.720 --> 00:42:36.239
gauls. And they're formed when

1156
00:42:36.240 --> 00:42:38.669
certain wasps drill into oak leaves.

1157
00:42:38.670 --> 00:42:40.589
and then

1158
00:42:40.590 --> 00:42:42.849
make a little nest there that they

1159
00:42:42.850 --> 00:42:44.329
put their larvae in.

1160
00:42:44.330 --> 00:42:45.789
So you can find these little paper

1161
00:42:45.790 --> 00:42:47.249
balls in the woods.

1162
00:42:47.250 --> 00:42:49.629
And then I learned that

1163
00:42:49.630 --> 00:42:51.709
the oak gall,

1164
00:42:51.710 --> 00:42:53.449
it makes a chemical that was used

1165
00:42:53.450 --> 00:42:55.349
for about 2,000 years in the West to

1166
00:42:55.350 --> 00:42:56.989
make ink, to make most of what

1167
00:42:56.990 --> 00:42:58.649
Europeans wrote with for hundreds

1168
00:42:58.650 --> 00:43:00.209
and hundreds of years was ink made

1169
00:43:00.210 --> 00:43:01.349
from oak gall.

1170
00:43:01.350 --> 00:43:03.349
So I found this all fascinating

1171
00:43:03.350 --> 00:43:04.869
and I was very grateful and here's

1172
00:43:04.870 --> 00:43:06.309
the poem.

1173
00:43:06.310 --> 00:43:07.310
Gall.

1174
00:43:08.790 --> 00:43:10.629
Oh, and the word droops in the first

1175
00:43:10.630 --> 00:43:13.109
line is D-R-U-P-E-S.

1176
00:43:13.110 --> 00:43:14.989
It's a kind of red berry on

1177
00:43:14.990 --> 00:43:15.990
a bush.

1178
00:43:17.330 --> 00:43:18.869
Gull.

1179
00:43:18.870 --> 00:43:20.929
Cat birds clawing at the ruby

1180
00:43:20.930 --> 00:43:23.129
droops of viburnum and bouncing

1181
00:43:23.130 --> 00:43:25.069
the boughs as the great

1182
00:43:25.070 --> 00:43:27.049
heat squats over us and

1183
00:43:27.050 --> 00:43:29.249
crickets sandpaper sunlight

1184
00:43:29.250 --> 00:43:30.630
in the bristling meadow.

1185
00:43:31.670 --> 00:43:34.109
We are not lost.

1186
00:43:34.110 --> 00:43:36.869
We're just quiet if

1187
00:43:36.870 --> 00:43:38.639
we don't speak.

1188
00:43:38.640 --> 00:43:40.819
It's not that we have nothing

1189
00:43:40.820 --> 00:43:42.679
to say, but

1190
00:43:42.680 --> 00:43:44.499
that the owl has said it

1191
00:43:44.500 --> 00:43:47.119
for us in his raspy whistle,

1192
00:43:47.120 --> 00:43:49.059
perched 20 feet away on a

1193
00:43:49.060 --> 00:43:51.919
log fallen over the brook,

1194
00:43:51.920 --> 00:43:53.839
professorial, examining

1195
00:43:53.840 --> 00:43:57.139
the trickle amid stones.

1196
00:43:57.140 --> 00:43:59.079
Then suddenly he drops

1197
00:43:59.080 --> 00:44:01.399
and seizes what?

1198
00:44:01.400 --> 00:44:03.379
A salamander in his beak

1199
00:44:03.380 --> 00:44:05.579
and gulps it down,

1200
00:44:05.580 --> 00:44:07.399
A SMACKING!

1201
00:44:07.400 --> 00:44:09.439
cracking sound after

1202
00:44:09.440 --> 00:44:11.619
which he fastidiously wipes

1203
00:44:11.620 --> 00:44:13.919
his mouth on the trunk.

1204
00:44:13.920 --> 00:44:16.059
Still more ingenious,

1205
00:44:16.060 --> 00:44:18.099
the wasp who drills the

1206
00:44:18.100 --> 00:44:20.579
oak leaf to lay her eggs,

1207
00:44:20.580 --> 00:44:22.479
injecting poisons that swell

1208
00:44:22.480 --> 00:44:24.959
the leaf into a gall,

1209
00:44:24.960 --> 00:44:27.919
a globed papyrus palazzo

1210
00:44:27.920 --> 00:44:29.839
in which the commandeered tree

1211
00:44:29.840 --> 00:44:32.259
generates a cafeteria so

1212
00:44:32.260 --> 00:44:34.619
the larvae can feed until

1213
00:44:34.620 --> 00:44:37.059
with sprouted wings and feet

1214
00:44:37.060 --> 00:44:38.959
Low, they chew their way

1215
00:44:38.960 --> 00:44:41.499
out and take flight.

1216
00:44:41.500 --> 00:44:43.479
They leave this tea-colored

1217
00:44:43.480 --> 00:44:46.319
paper lantern ball.

1218
00:44:46.320 --> 00:44:48.319
Pliny the Elder instructed

1219
00:44:48.320 --> 00:44:50.239
us to crush and boil

1220
00:44:50.240 --> 00:44:52.079
with iron sulfate

1221
00:44:52.080 --> 00:44:53.979
to make the oak gall

1222
00:44:53.980 --> 00:44:55.979
ink Europeans wrote

1223
00:44:55.980 --> 00:44:57.919
with for almost

1224
00:44:57.920 --> 00:44:59.519
2,000 years.

1225
00:45:00.560 --> 00:45:02.299
We are not lost.

1226
00:45:02.300 --> 00:45:04.299
We have been

1227
00:45:04.300 --> 00:45:06.179
writing out of

1228
00:45:06.180 --> 00:45:07.559
our silence,

1229
00:45:08.600 --> 00:45:11.939
our bile, our chafing,

1230
00:45:11.940 --> 00:45:13.399
galled.

1231
00:45:13.400 --> 00:45:15.019
The larvae were hungry,

1232
00:45:16.020 --> 00:45:18.039
so was the owl, and

1233
00:45:18.040 --> 00:45:20.559
we, from disease,

1234
00:45:20.560 --> 00:45:22.779
made a codex of hungers

1235
00:45:22.780 --> 00:45:24.739
and shaped the letters

1236
00:45:24.740 --> 00:45:26.819
precisely so

1237
00:45:26.820 --> 00:45:27.820
they would last.

1238
00:45:30.090 --> 00:45:31.949
Let's see, I'm gonna conclude

1239
00:45:31.950 --> 00:45:32.950
very soon.

1240
00:45:38.810 --> 00:45:40.510
I have a little grandson.

1241
00:45:42.670 --> 00:45:44.989
And we were making papier-mâché.

1242
00:45:44.990 --> 00:45:46.649
I don't know if you still do that.

1243
00:45:46.650 --> 00:45:48.529
Rip up newspaper and put

1244
00:45:48.530 --> 00:45:50.769
it in glue and it hardens

1245
00:45:50.770 --> 00:45:52.649
and you can make a sculpture

1246
00:45:52.650 --> 00:45:53.650
out of it.

1247
00:45:54.630 --> 00:45:55.869
So we were doing that.

1248
00:45:58.320 --> 00:45:59.320
papier-mâché.

1249
00:46:01.220 --> 00:46:03.419
He's ripping up a war.

1250
00:46:03.420 --> 00:46:05.179
The strips of the New York Times

1251
00:46:05.180 --> 00:46:07.199
slide between his fingers

1252
00:46:07.200 --> 00:46:09.279
into the bowl of flour and

1253
00:46:09.280 --> 00:46:11.619
glue chowder, then splotch

1254
00:46:11.620 --> 00:46:13.499
around the balloon where he

1255
00:46:13.500 --> 00:46:15.539
massages tanks,

1256
00:46:15.540 --> 00:46:17.599
missiles, hollow-eyed,

1257
00:46:17.600 --> 00:46:19.919
helmeted men, and blasted

1258
00:46:19.920 --> 00:46:21.779
apartments over the swollen

1259
00:46:21.780 --> 00:46:23.759
skull of a future

1260
00:46:23.760 --> 00:46:25.779
pumpkin mask,

1261
00:46:25.780 --> 00:46:27.999
but pauses before tearing

1262
00:46:28.000 --> 00:46:30.229
the page of young recruits.

1263
00:46:30.230 --> 00:46:32.649
superhero gear and invincible

1264
00:46:32.650 --> 00:46:34.509
stances just like

1265
00:46:34.510 --> 00:46:35.510
his comics.

1266
00:46:36.550 --> 00:46:38.949
He's five years old.

1267
00:46:38.950 --> 00:46:40.769
Glue soup spatters his

1268
00:46:40.770 --> 00:46:42.929
hair, his pants.

1269
00:46:42.930 --> 00:46:45.069
He'll make something whole of

1270
00:46:45.070 --> 00:46:46.889
all this havoc the

1271
00:46:46.890 --> 00:46:49.289
scariest pumpkin will ever see.

1272
00:46:50.450 --> 00:46:52.929
No bombs fall here.

1273
00:46:52.930 --> 00:46:55.029
We're free to shred

1274
00:46:55.030 --> 00:46:56.989
whole countries on the

1275
00:46:56.990 --> 00:46:57.789
kitchen floor.

1276
00:46:57.790 --> 00:46:59.530
And while we're at it...

1277
00:47:00.940 --> 00:47:02.899
family feuds, our

1278
00:47:02.900 --> 00:47:04.879
own mildewed archive

1279
00:47:04.880 --> 00:47:07.719
of injury and revenge.

1280
00:47:07.720 --> 00:47:09.879
What masks will compose

1281
00:47:09.880 --> 00:47:12.079
from these tatters, this

1282
00:47:12.080 --> 00:47:13.079
goop?

1283
00:47:13.080 --> 00:47:15.139
And when they've dried and we've

1284
00:47:15.140 --> 00:47:16.999
cut holes for eyes

1285
00:47:17.000 --> 00:47:20.059
and painted the crackled frame,

1286
00:47:20.060 --> 00:47:22.019
with what new lines of

1287
00:47:22.020 --> 00:47:24.119
sight will squint at

1288
00:47:24.120 --> 00:47:26.339
that compulsive brother,

1289
00:47:26.340 --> 00:47:28.679
Cain, who acts it out

1290
00:47:28.680 --> 00:47:30.440
again, again.

1291
00:47:32.750 --> 00:47:34.449
In this case, the paper being torn

1292
00:47:34.450 --> 00:47:36.389
up was the

1293
00:47:36.390 --> 00:47:37.670
war in Ukraine.

1294
00:47:40.830 --> 00:47:41.809
Let's see, I think I'll just read

1295
00:47:41.810 --> 00:47:42.810
two more.

1296
00:47:43.590 --> 00:47:45.809
This is a short one.

1297
00:47:45.810 --> 00:47:47.809
I almost didn't include

1298
00:47:47.810 --> 00:47:49.849
this poem such times

1299
00:47:49.850 --> 00:47:51.749
in the book.

1300
00:47:51.750 --> 00:47:53.589
But I did at the end.

1301
00:47:53.590 --> 00:47:56.189
And then it seemed to turn out

1302
00:47:56.190 --> 00:47:57.190
to be

1303
00:47:59.450 --> 00:48:01.609
more sense than

1304
00:48:01.610 --> 00:48:03.429
for our time than I

1305
00:48:03.430 --> 00:48:04.670
had originally imagined.

1306
00:48:07.120 --> 00:48:08.500
such times.

1307
00:48:10.420 --> 00:48:12.119
Crack of the spine against the

1308
00:48:12.120 --> 00:48:14.279
floor, wave of

1309
00:48:14.280 --> 00:48:16.639
nausea, then splintering

1310
00:48:16.640 --> 00:48:17.999
pain.

1311
00:48:18.000 --> 00:48:19.879
How many broken promises?

1312
00:48:20.920 --> 00:48:22.919
And where was the Buddha of

1313
00:48:22.920 --> 00:48:23.920
compassion?

1314
00:48:24.580 --> 00:48:26.499
Covered with dust in the

1315
00:48:26.500 --> 00:48:28.479
little shop on Mass Ave,

1316
00:48:28.480 --> 00:48:30.719
just beyond the furniture store,

1317
00:48:30.720 --> 00:48:32.239
where I fantasized of

1318
00:48:33.400 --> 00:48:35.359
There were laws

1319
00:48:35.360 --> 00:48:37.359
to be smashed.

1320
00:48:37.360 --> 00:48:39.899
a country intent on

1321
00:48:39.900 --> 00:48:41.739
doing just that.

1322
00:48:42.920 --> 00:48:44.999
We lived in such

1323
00:48:45.000 --> 00:48:46.599
times.

1324
00:48:46.600 --> 00:48:49.259
Still, in Prokofiev's

1325
00:48:49.260 --> 00:48:51.599
piano sonata, the notes

1326
00:48:51.600 --> 00:48:53.639
kept rising like a

1327
00:48:53.640 --> 00:48:54.880
vine on a trellis.

1328
00:48:57.990 --> 00:48:59.589
was true.

1329
00:48:59.590 --> 00:49:02.049
There was a way in

1330
00:49:02.050 --> 00:49:03.050
which it was true,

1331
00:49:04.510 --> 00:49:06.529
but did we

1332
00:49:06.530 --> 00:49:07.530
hear?

1333
00:49:11.220 --> 00:49:12.920
And I'll end with equinox.

1334
00:49:17.750 --> 00:49:19.829
The French philosopher,

1335
00:49:19.830 --> 00:49:22.189
Simon Wey,

1336
00:49:22.190 --> 00:49:23.469
complicated person.

1337
00:49:24.590 --> 00:49:26.429
I don't think she was a saint, that

1338
00:49:26.430 --> 00:49:27.969
some people make her out to be, but

1339
00:49:27.970 --> 00:49:29.889
a very deep thinker about labor

1340
00:49:29.890 --> 00:49:30.969
and justice,

1341
00:49:32.310 --> 00:49:34.969
as well as

1342
00:49:34.970 --> 00:49:36.929
some really serious

1343
00:49:36.930 --> 00:49:38.809
problems with her own

1344
00:49:38.810 --> 00:49:40.329
Jewishness, but we'll leave that

1345
00:49:40.330 --> 00:49:41.330
aside for the moment.

1346
00:49:42.930 --> 00:49:43.930
Equinox.

1347
00:49:46.200 --> 00:49:49.419
The dark-bellied cloud malingers,

1348
00:49:49.420 --> 00:49:51.379
then lifts slowly above the crowns

1349
00:49:51.380 --> 00:49:53.239
of the white pines, dragging

1350
00:49:53.240 --> 00:49:55.199
its skeins through their

1351
00:49:55.200 --> 00:49:56.679
plumes.

1352
00:49:56.680 --> 00:49:58.639
The late afternoon lightens

1353
00:49:58.640 --> 00:50:00.859
in scraps of blue and

1354
00:50:00.860 --> 00:50:02.899
treetops waver,

1355
00:50:02.900 --> 00:50:04.839
unlike the ledger of my

1356
00:50:04.840 --> 00:50:06.819
wrongs and my expert

1357
00:50:06.820 --> 00:50:09.119
accounting of others'

1358
00:50:09.120 --> 00:50:11.059
misdeeds, which is

1359
00:50:11.060 --> 00:50:12.139
called plot.

1360
00:50:13.400 --> 00:50:15.279
Three deer wander into

1361
00:50:15.280 --> 00:50:17.299
the meadow with nothing on their

1362
00:50:17.300 --> 00:50:19.639
minds except the slim green

1363
00:50:19.640 --> 00:50:22.059
weeds just poking through winter's

1364
00:50:22.060 --> 00:50:23.239
straw.

1365
00:50:23.240 --> 00:50:25.519
And in the shiftless light,

1366
00:50:25.520 --> 00:50:27.759
I see again that

1367
00:50:27.760 --> 00:50:29.579
young man stripped

1368
00:50:29.580 --> 00:50:32.179
to his pale waist last

1369
00:50:32.180 --> 00:50:34.759
November in the city who

1370
00:50:34.760 --> 00:50:36.699
glided out of the shadows

1371
00:50:36.700 --> 00:50:38.999
at the corner of the hotel

1372
00:50:39.000 --> 00:50:40.999
and the parking lot on

1373
00:50:41.000 --> 00:50:42.879
our nightly walk.

1374
00:50:42.880 --> 00:50:44.819
a wraith,

1375
00:50:44.820 --> 00:50:46.999
were we the strangers he

1376
00:50:47.000 --> 00:50:48.339
sought?

1377
00:50:48.340 --> 00:50:50.459
He stood, watching us

1378
00:50:50.460 --> 00:50:52.919
pass with his spindly

1379
00:50:52.920 --> 00:50:55.879
arms, narrow chest,

1380
00:50:55.880 --> 00:50:57.699
not shivering in

1381
00:50:57.700 --> 00:50:59.600
the almost winter dark.

1382
00:51:00.900 --> 00:51:02.879
In our being,

1383
00:51:02.880 --> 00:51:04.819
God is torn,

1384
00:51:04.820 --> 00:51:06.320
said Simone Vey.

1385
00:51:07.480 --> 00:51:10.039
We walked away,

1386
00:51:10.040 --> 00:51:11.280
not in his world.

1387
00:51:13.470 --> 00:51:14.470
Thank you.

1388
00:51:39.200 --> 00:51:41.279
Sorry to cause such

1389
00:51:41.280 --> 00:51:42.259
interruptions.

1390
00:51:42.260 --> 00:51:44.079
This is sudden, or I wouldn't

1391
00:51:44.080 --> 00:51:45.259
be here.

1392
00:51:45.260 --> 00:51:47.079
So anyway, I'm glad I was here

1393
00:51:47.080 --> 00:51:48.639
to hear you.

1394
00:51:50.060 --> 00:51:51.379
This is a great reading.

1395
00:51:51.380 --> 00:51:53.260
It was predictable.

1396
00:51:55.520 --> 00:51:57.579
I'd like to get the

1397
00:51:57.580 --> 00:51:59.579
audience to ask whatever

1398
00:51:59.580 --> 00:52:01.499
questions they might have of you.

1399
00:52:01.500 --> 00:52:03.779
I have one or two.

1400
00:52:03.780 --> 00:52:05.719
I'll ask one,

1401
00:52:05.720 --> 00:52:07.779
and then maybe ask another,

1402
00:52:07.780 --> 00:52:09.889
or maybe not.

1403
00:52:09.890 --> 00:52:11.649
This looks like an inquisitive

1404
00:52:11.650 --> 00:52:13.469
bunch, but I'm very

1405
00:52:13.470 --> 00:52:14.470
curious.

1406
00:52:15.550 --> 00:52:17.129
So we'll go to them.

1407
00:52:19.340 --> 00:52:21.419
Now and then, I can

1408
00:52:21.420 --> 00:52:23.499
hear even in your

1409
00:52:23.500 --> 00:52:25.399
poems that

1410
00:52:25.400 --> 00:52:27.339
don't rhyme,

1411
00:52:27.340 --> 00:52:29.219
and many of them don't, though some

1412
00:52:29.220 --> 00:52:30.519
of them do.

1413
00:52:30.520 --> 00:52:32.339
I noticed you didn't read

1414
00:52:32.340 --> 00:52:33.929
most of those tonight.

1415
00:52:33.930 --> 00:52:35.129
You know, I what?

1416
00:52:35.130 --> 00:52:35.859
You didn't.

1417
00:52:35.860 --> 00:52:37.039
read.

1418
00:52:37.040 --> 00:52:38.040
So the rhyming poems?

1419
00:52:40.800 --> 00:52:43.359
I'm just wondering how

1420
00:52:43.360 --> 00:52:46.099
you think about meter today

1421
00:52:46.100 --> 00:52:48.479
in your own work.

1422
00:52:48.480 --> 00:52:50.399
It seems pretty clear

1423
00:52:50.400 --> 00:52:52.339
to me that you have

1424
00:52:52.340 --> 00:52:53.960
a metrical background.

1425
00:52:55.380 --> 00:52:57.219
This is not always true

1426
00:52:57.220 --> 00:52:58.359
these days.

1427
00:52:58.360 --> 00:53:00.799
Poetry has changed recently.

1428
00:53:00.800 --> 00:53:02.559
And one of the things that has

1429
00:53:02.560 --> 00:53:04.689
changed is our

1430
00:53:04.690 --> 00:53:06.849
attention to meter, I think.

1431
00:53:06.850 --> 00:53:08.829
But I'm just curious whether in

1432
00:53:08.830 --> 00:53:10.649
your work, since you have

1433
00:53:10.650 --> 00:53:12.689
by now a certain history and

1434
00:53:12.690 --> 00:53:14.909
a certain education, whether you

1435
00:53:14.910 --> 00:53:17.829
hear meters as you were writing.

1436
00:53:17.830 --> 00:53:19.949
Yeah, thank you for the,

1437
00:53:19.950 --> 00:53:21.769
I genuinely liked the question

1438
00:53:21.770 --> 00:53:22.770
because.

1439
00:53:24.910 --> 00:53:27.189
It seems to me that

1440
00:53:27.190 --> 00:53:29.469
to write poetry is

1441
00:53:29.470 --> 00:53:31.509
to engage in a kind of musicianship.

1442
00:53:31.510 --> 00:53:33.349
And then the question is,

1443
00:53:33.350 --> 00:53:35.609
how do we make these musics?

1444
00:53:35.610 --> 00:53:36.710
And they're very plural.

1445
00:53:40.410 --> 00:53:42.949
I think a

1446
00:53:42.950 --> 00:53:44.549
good musical training in the sense

1447
00:53:44.550 --> 00:53:46.689
of poetic musical training

1448
00:53:46.690 --> 00:53:49.249
has to do with meter,

1449
00:53:49.250 --> 00:53:50.789
with understanding traditions of

1450
00:53:50.790 --> 00:53:52.209
meeting, hearing them, training the

1451
00:53:52.210 --> 00:53:53.429
ear that way.

1452
00:53:53.430 --> 00:53:55.349
In order to write good

1453
00:53:55.350 --> 00:53:57.009
free verse, if one wants to write

1454
00:53:57.010 --> 00:53:58.109
free verse. In other words, to

1455
00:53:58.110 --> 00:54:00.069
liberate your ear and your inner

1456
00:54:00.070 --> 00:54:01.070
rhythms.

1457
00:54:02.830 --> 00:54:04.609
what might be automatic habits.

1458
00:54:04.610 --> 00:54:06.149
And I think we all have automatic

1459
00:54:06.150 --> 00:54:07.029
rhythmical habits.

1460
00:54:07.030 --> 00:54:09.409
And so to jog ourselves,

1461
00:54:09.410 --> 00:54:10.869
become more conscious of what

1462
00:54:10.870 --> 00:54:12.909
cadences we're writing in, whether

1463
00:54:12.910 --> 00:54:15.129
they're metrically regular or

1464
00:54:15.130 --> 00:54:15.989
irregular.

1465
00:54:15.990 --> 00:54:17.969
Mine are certainly mostly irregular,

1466
00:54:17.970 --> 00:54:19.030
have been for years.

1467
00:54:22.100 --> 00:54:24.239
As Stephen is hearing,

1468
00:54:24.240 --> 00:54:26.500
there's an underlying

1469
00:54:27.819 --> 00:54:30.179
rhythmical cadence to

1470
00:54:30.180 --> 00:54:31.219
my lines.

1471
00:54:31.220 --> 00:54:32.499
And that is sometimes,

1472
00:54:33.560 --> 00:54:36.279
you could sometimes hear traditional

1473
00:54:36.280 --> 00:54:38.519
hexameters or pentameters

1474
00:54:38.520 --> 00:54:40.379
in

1475
00:54:40.380 --> 00:54:42.639
there, woven into

1476
00:54:42.640 --> 00:54:43.760
a different kind of structure.

1477
00:54:45.180 --> 00:54:46.180
So I guess I'd.

1478
00:54:47.990 --> 00:54:50.069
And I also think it's,

1479
00:54:50.070 --> 00:54:51.729
I feel grateful that I grew up

1480
00:54:51.730 --> 00:54:53.589
partly in France and so partly

1481
00:54:53.590 --> 00:54:55.469
in French schools and thinking

1482
00:54:55.470 --> 00:54:57.329
in French and so I had

1483
00:54:57.330 --> 00:54:59.549
other, other rhythms to

1484
00:54:59.550 --> 00:55:01.349
play against English and then

1485
00:55:01.350 --> 00:55:03.229
studied Latin and then Greek and

1486
00:55:03.230 --> 00:55:05.369
I like to play different metrical

1487
00:55:05.370 --> 00:55:07.909
patterns against

1488
00:55:07.910 --> 00:55:09.829
English, so it doesn't

1489
00:55:09.830 --> 00:55:10.830
feel.

1490
00:55:12.590 --> 00:55:14.569
It doesn't feel mechanical to me.

1491
00:55:14.570 --> 00:55:16.709
It feels like musicianship,

1492
00:55:16.710 --> 00:55:19.149
and that it's a form of power,

1493
00:55:19.150 --> 00:55:21.089
a form power to be used any way the

1494
00:55:21.090 --> 00:55:23.829
poet feels like using it then.

1495
00:55:23.830 --> 00:55:25.589
That's a long-winded answer.

1496
00:55:25.590 --> 00:55:27.329
No, not a bit.

1497
00:55:28.710 --> 00:55:30.249
Very gratifying to me.

1498
00:55:31.590 --> 00:55:33.449
Any questions about meter

1499
00:55:33.450 --> 00:55:35.349
or rhythms?

1500
00:55:36.750 --> 00:55:38.409
Misuse of that word.

1501
00:55:38.410 --> 00:55:39.449
Or anything else.

1502
00:55:39.450 --> 00:55:41.309
Yeah, or anything else, I don't

1503
00:55:41.310 --> 00:55:43.070
mean this to be a workshop.

1504
00:55:47.340 --> 00:55:48.739
I was waiting for a very long.

1505
00:55:48.740 --> 00:55:49.859
Jackie. Oh, I'm sorry.

1506
00:55:52.230 --> 00:55:53.949
You've been writing for quite a

1507
00:55:53.950 --> 00:55:54.950
while.

1508
00:55:55.350 --> 00:55:57.569
How have your desires for

1509
00:55:57.570 --> 00:55:59.149
what you were going to say changed

1510
00:55:59.150 --> 00:56:00.249
over time?

1511
00:56:00.250 --> 00:56:02.109
And how has your language changed to

1512
00:56:02.110 --> 00:56:03.110
encompass?

1513
00:56:03.869 --> 00:56:05.549
how my desires, for what I want to

1514
00:56:05.550 --> 00:56:06.639
say, changed over time.

1515
00:56:06.640 --> 00:56:07.979
Yeah, and how have your meters

1516
00:56:07.980 --> 00:56:09.059
evolved to?

1517
00:56:09.060 --> 00:56:11.079
meters and other things

1518
00:56:11.080 --> 00:56:12.080
too.

1519
00:56:16.080 --> 00:56:17.080
Good, deep question.

1520
00:56:21.560 --> 00:56:23.639
I think when I was

1521
00:56:23.640 --> 00:56:25.699
young, I

1522
00:56:25.700 --> 00:56:27.739
was memorizing a lot of poems

1523
00:56:27.740 --> 00:56:29.459
from, well, in a French school when

1524
00:56:29.460 --> 00:56:30.599
I as 12 years old, you had to

1525
00:56:30.600 --> 00:56:31.819
memorize hundreds and hundreds of

1526
00:56:31.820 --> 00:56:33.359
lines, not just a poetry but a prose

1527
00:56:33.360 --> 00:56:34.439
and a math and a history and

1528
00:56:34.440 --> 00:56:36.479
everything else was done by, wrote

1529
00:56:36.480 --> 00:56:37.839
memory. Actually, it was a good

1530
00:56:37.840 --> 00:56:38.880
training in a way.

1531
00:56:40.000 --> 00:56:41.000
And I.

1532
00:56:45.040 --> 00:56:46.899
When I was writing poems in

1533
00:56:46.900 --> 00:56:48.959
my adolescence and early 20s,

1534
00:56:48.960 --> 00:56:51.079
I think my models,

1535
00:56:52.680 --> 00:56:54.559
well they

1536
00:56:54.560 --> 00:56:55.560
were multiple.

1537
00:56:58.960 --> 00:57:00.919
I realized looking back that

1538
00:57:00.920 --> 00:57:04.039
I had a tendency to

1539
00:57:04.040 --> 00:57:06.039
be quite

1540
00:57:06.040 --> 00:57:10.059
decorative and

1541
00:57:10.060 --> 00:57:12.019
witty and a little charming

1542
00:57:12.020 --> 00:57:14.919
and this

1543
00:57:14.920 --> 00:57:16.959
was somewhat seductive

1544
00:57:16.960 --> 00:57:19.239
to some older poets who, you know,

1545
00:57:19.240 --> 00:57:21.139
praise me and I came to

1546
00:57:21.140 --> 00:57:23.219
feel I didn't want to rely

1547
00:57:23.220 --> 00:57:26.039
on that decorativeness or

1548
00:57:26.040 --> 00:57:27.040
charm and wit

1549
00:57:29.280 --> 00:57:31.179
And James Merrill, your

1550
00:57:31.180 --> 00:57:33.379
guy, your wonderful guy,

1551
00:57:33.380 --> 00:57:35.379
who was very kind to me, wonderful

1552
00:57:35.380 --> 00:57:37.219
to me and generous and who

1553
00:57:37.220 --> 00:57:39.419
was a brilliant and marvelous poet,

1554
00:57:39.420 --> 00:57:42.079
I think that when I was young,

1555
00:57:42.080 --> 00:57:44.279
I never imitated Merrill but

1556
00:57:44.280 --> 00:57:46.619
I learned a lot from him and

1557
00:57:46.620 --> 00:57:48.459
sometimes what I learned

1558
00:57:48.460 --> 00:57:50.100
I had to correct in myself.

1559
00:57:51.320 --> 00:57:53.459
I had not try

1560
00:57:53.460 --> 00:57:55.639
to be so

1561
00:57:55.640 --> 00:57:57.519
fancy and I think he

1562
00:57:57.520 --> 00:57:59.009
learned it too.

1563
00:57:59.010 --> 00:58:00.629
His palms changed a lot, his palms

1564
00:58:00.630 --> 00:58:02.089
got tougher.

1565
00:58:02.090 --> 00:58:03.989
Yeah, I think Robert Lowell

1566
00:58:03.990 --> 00:58:06.250
had a lot to do with his change.

1567
00:58:07.910 --> 00:58:10.010
But yeah, well, that's interesting.

1568
00:58:11.190 --> 00:58:13.009
I was next

1569
00:58:13.010 --> 00:58:14.829
to mentioning to you earlier

1570
00:58:14.830 --> 00:58:16.769
this evening that I'd come

1571
00:58:16.770 --> 00:58:19.389
to expect in your poems a

1572
00:58:19.390 --> 00:58:21.849
kind of naked ferocity.

1573
00:58:21.850 --> 00:58:22.989
Thank you.

1574
00:58:22.990 --> 00:58:25.229
That I

1575
00:58:25.230 --> 00:58:27.589
wasn't always

1576
00:58:27.590 --> 00:58:28.789
prepared for.

1577
00:58:28.790 --> 00:58:30.789
Well, you have a taste for

1578
00:58:30.790 --> 00:58:32.649
the...

1579
00:58:32.650 --> 00:58:34.949
the outre and

1580
00:58:34.950 --> 00:58:36.630
for the,

1581
00:58:38.790 --> 00:58:39.849
sometimes ugly.

1582
00:58:39.850 --> 00:58:41.089
And there's a place for it.

1583
00:58:41.090 --> 00:58:43.089
There is, we live in it all

1584
00:58:43.090 --> 00:58:43.989
the time.

1585
00:58:43.990 --> 00:58:45.869
And so it's good that

1586
00:58:45.870 --> 00:58:48.009
it gets into one's poetry

1587
00:58:48.010 --> 00:58:49.509
too, I think.

1588
00:58:49.510 --> 00:58:52.609
And you certainly corrected well,

1589
00:58:52.610 --> 00:58:53.610
I guess. Thank you.

1590
00:58:55.970 --> 00:58:57.369
There's a hand there.

1591
00:58:57.370 --> 00:58:58.370
Yes, okay.

1592
00:59:02.720 --> 00:59:04.279
Hi, thank you for such an amazing

1593
00:59:04.280 --> 00:59:05.439
reading. First of all, I just want

1594
00:59:05.440 --> 00:59:06.639
to say that.

1595
00:59:06.640 --> 00:59:08.459
And my question is relating, I

1596
00:59:08.460 --> 00:59:09.399
was wondering if you could talk

1597
00:59:09.400 --> 00:59:11.419
about your experience translating

1598
00:59:11.420 --> 00:59:13.359
the phenomenon of vision into

1599
00:59:13.360 --> 00:59:14.359
poetry.

1600
00:59:14.360 --> 00:59:15.959
Is it more of like a containment or

1601
00:59:15.960 --> 00:59:17.939
like breaking open a birdcage or

1602
00:59:17.940 --> 00:59:19.189
something else?

1603
00:59:19.190 --> 00:59:20.609
Translating what kind of vision?

1604
00:59:20.610 --> 00:59:22.409
the experience of vision, like.

1605
00:59:22.410 --> 00:59:23.689
The experience of vision.

1606
00:59:23.690 --> 00:59:25.569
Yeah. Oh, what a great question.

1607
00:59:26.810 --> 00:59:28.789
Ah, how can

1608
00:59:28.790 --> 00:59:29.790
I answer that?

1609
00:59:31.710 --> 00:59:32.710
Well.

1610
00:59:33.400 --> 00:59:35.219
You mean vision in a kind

1611
00:59:35.220 --> 00:59:36.380
of metaphysical sense?

1612
00:59:39.720 --> 00:59:41.839
Yeah, I started, as

1613
00:59:41.840 --> 00:59:43.539
Stephen mentioned, I started as a

1614
00:59:43.540 --> 00:59:45.539
painter. That is all my doing,

1615
00:59:47.600 --> 00:59:49.459
my adolescence, I really worked

1616
00:59:49.460 --> 00:59:51.279
very hard at painting and went to

1617
00:59:51.280 --> 00:59:52.199
serious art schools.

1618
00:59:52.200 --> 00:59:53.439
I was writing all the time too, but

1619
00:59:53.440 --> 00:59:55.459
I was, and so there

1620
00:59:55.460 --> 00:59:57.659
I was trying to translate my vision

1621
00:59:57.660 --> 00:59:59.479
and onto a canvas in color

1622
00:59:59.480 --> 01:00:00.859
and shape and rhythm there.

1623
01:00:05.240 --> 01:00:07.339
And what I couldn't accomplish

1624
01:00:07.340 --> 01:00:09.179
there, I began to try

1625
01:00:09.180 --> 01:00:10.699
to accomplish in words

1626
01:00:12.800 --> 01:00:14.719
through song,

1627
01:00:14.720 --> 01:00:16.499
we might call it.

1628
01:00:16.500 --> 01:00:19.559
Song and the enchantment,

1629
01:00:19.560 --> 01:00:21.699
forms of enchantments,

1630
01:00:21.700 --> 01:00:23.699
linguistic and rhythmical

1631
01:00:23.700 --> 01:00:25.539
enchantement and dream

1632
01:00:25.540 --> 01:00:26.540
work.

1633
01:00:28.840 --> 01:00:31.239
But, so I think of

1634
01:00:31.240 --> 01:00:33.039
writing the poem, trying to

1635
01:00:33.040 --> 01:00:34.879
translate the vision, I love that

1636
01:00:34.880 --> 01:00:35.880
phrase.

1637
01:00:38.100 --> 01:00:40.039
On the one hand, it's musical

1638
01:00:40.040 --> 01:00:40.979
for me.

1639
01:00:40.980 --> 01:00:43.319
It has to do with an enchant,

1640
01:00:43.320 --> 01:00:45.379
with the intent to enchant.

1641
01:00:45.380 --> 01:00:47.239
But it also is quite visual.

1642
01:00:47.240 --> 01:00:48.479
I write by hand.

1643
01:00:48.480 --> 01:00:50.539
I even wrote the 700 page book on

1644
01:00:50.540 --> 01:00:52.879
Makshakov all by hand

1645
01:00:52.880 --> 01:00:55.239
and then typed it.

1646
01:00:55.240 --> 01:00:56.979
No wonder it took 35 years.

1647
01:00:58.280 --> 01:01:01.019
But, so my poem manuscripts,

1648
01:01:01.020 --> 01:01:02.479
they're like drawings, because

1649
01:01:02.480 --> 01:01:04.659
they're written by hand, and

1650
01:01:04.660 --> 01:01:06.879
my feeling of shape, of form,

1651
01:01:06.880 --> 01:01:08.259
is almost like a drawing on the

1652
01:01:08.260 --> 01:01:09.959
page. And there's a lot of crossing

1653
01:01:09.960 --> 01:01:12.319
out, and rewriting, and redrawing

1654
01:01:12.320 --> 01:01:13.499
the poem.

1655
01:01:13.500 --> 01:01:15.399
So I guess my answer to you would

1656
01:01:15.400 --> 01:01:17.419
be it's both visual, in terms of

1657
01:01:17.420 --> 01:01:19.379
drawing, a drawing discipline, and

1658
01:01:19.380 --> 01:01:21.119
it's also auditory.

1659
01:01:21.120 --> 01:01:22.759
It's a song discipline.

1660
01:01:24.000 --> 01:01:25.560
And I throw away a lot.

1661
01:01:26.640 --> 01:01:28.719
I used to take nine years between

1662
01:01:28.720 --> 01:01:30.539
my books because I throw away

1663
01:01:30.540 --> 01:01:32.379
so much, my poetry books.

1664
01:01:34.320 --> 01:01:36.159
Recently I haven't been teaching

1665
01:01:36.160 --> 01:01:38.319
so I had more time to write.

1666
01:01:38.320 --> 01:01:39.739
Also been cooped up in a cabin in

1667
01:01:39.740 --> 01:01:40.779
the woods talking to snakes.

1668
01:01:46.540 --> 01:01:47.620
Can we have a mic here?

1669
01:01:52.560 --> 01:01:53.839
Thank you for such a beautiful

1670
01:01:53.840 --> 01:01:55.079
reading.

1671
01:01:55.080 --> 01:01:56.399
I have so many questions for you, I

1672
01:01:56.400 --> 01:01:58.039
don't know where to begin.

1673
01:01:58.040 --> 01:02:00.199
But I teach too at

1674
01:02:00.200 --> 01:02:02.339
the university and

1675
01:02:02.340 --> 01:02:03.839
I'm wondering what you think about

1676
01:02:03.840 --> 01:02:05.959
poetry today or poetry tomorrow

1677
01:02:05.960 --> 01:02:07.879
in light of the

1678
01:02:07.880 --> 01:02:09.459
fact that everybody's always reading

1679
01:02:09.460 --> 01:02:11.559
now but they're reading on the

1680
01:02:11.560 --> 01:02:13.479
computer screen and reading these

1681
01:02:13.480 --> 01:02:16.199
brief texts and it's

1682
01:02:16.200 --> 01:02:19.339
like this multi-attention

1683
01:02:19.340 --> 01:02:20.340
orientation.

1684
01:02:21.400 --> 01:02:23.879
So when I teach, I find that

1685
01:02:23.880 --> 01:02:26.339
poetry becomes increasingly less

1686
01:02:26.340 --> 01:02:29.339
of a draw for students.

1687
01:02:29.340 --> 01:02:31.179
It's as if the audience

1688
01:02:31.180 --> 01:02:33.159
seems to be diminishing

1689
01:02:33.160 --> 01:02:34.979
by the day. So I wonder how

1690
01:02:34.980 --> 01:02:37.099
you feel, both of you really, about

1691
01:02:37.100 --> 01:02:39.079
the future of poetry given

1692
01:02:39.080 --> 01:02:40.959
this other sort of

1693
01:02:40.960 --> 01:02:42.319
textuality, if you want to call it

1694
01:02:42.320 --> 01:02:44.219
that, that has become so

1695
01:02:44.220 --> 01:02:45.499
predominant.

1696
01:02:45.500 --> 01:02:46.780
That was a deep question.

1697
01:02:50.230 --> 01:02:51.530
Well, it's odd.

1698
01:02:52.650 --> 01:02:54.569
In my private experience, that is as

1699
01:02:54.570 --> 01:02:56.629
a teacher, for many, many,

1700
01:02:56.630 --> 01:02:58.689
years, I taught at BU for 25

1701
01:02:58.690 --> 01:03:00.069
years and then taught at 10 years in

1702
01:03:00.070 --> 01:03:01.070
Chicago,

1703
01:03:01.890 --> 01:03:03.349
I always felt there was something

1704
01:03:03.350 --> 01:03:05.149
sacred going on in the classroom,

1705
01:03:05.150 --> 01:03:06.489
that the students, at least the ones

1706
01:03:06.490 --> 01:03:07.889
who came to me, which was not huge

1707
01:03:07.890 --> 01:03:09.369
mobs, but the ones who came really

1708
01:03:09.370 --> 01:03:10.530
were hungry for poetry.

1709
01:03:11.550 --> 01:03:13.429
And we had, I

1710
01:03:13.430 --> 01:03:15.509
felt not every class

1711
01:03:15.510 --> 01:03:17.419
was enchanted, There,

1712
01:03:17.420 --> 01:03:19.139
I felt in touch with students, young

1713
01:03:19.140 --> 01:03:21.379
people, who were eager for

1714
01:03:21.380 --> 01:03:22.919
song and to understand deep

1715
01:03:22.920 --> 01:03:24.319
traditions in song.

1716
01:03:24.320 --> 01:03:25.999
So that heartened me enormously.

1717
01:03:26.000 --> 01:03:27.519
I mean, that's not the whole picture

1718
01:03:27.520 --> 01:03:28.520
at all.

1719
01:03:34.580 --> 01:03:36.759
I think there's some

1720
01:03:36.760 --> 01:03:39.659
really powerful

1721
01:03:39.660 --> 01:03:41.919
poetry being written in English

1722
01:03:41.920 --> 01:03:43.419
these days.

1723
01:03:43.420 --> 01:03:44.420
Some.

1724
01:03:45.030 --> 01:03:46.649
Some of the most interesting to me

1725
01:03:46.650 --> 01:03:49.449
are Canadian, Irish,

1726
01:03:49.450 --> 01:03:51.489
English, Caribbean, you

1727
01:03:51.490 --> 01:03:53.409
know, American poetry a little bit

1728
01:03:53.410 --> 01:03:55.569
tends to be a little parochial,

1729
01:03:55.570 --> 01:03:56.709
little Frank Stoke focused on

1730
01:03:56.710 --> 01:03:58.169
American issues and so, I mean

1731
01:03:58.170 --> 01:04:00.029
there's plenty of issues,

1732
01:04:00.030 --> 01:04:01.929
but I like to have a bigger view

1733
01:04:01.930 --> 01:04:03.969
and see multiple

1734
01:04:03.970 --> 01:04:07.269
poetic cultures generating song.

1735
01:04:07.270 --> 01:04:08.089
I don't know.

1736
01:04:08.090 --> 01:04:09.949
I think the

1737
01:04:09.950 --> 01:04:11.890
human beings need song.

1738
01:04:13.640 --> 01:04:15.159
I think we're rhythmical creatures

1739
01:04:15.160 --> 01:04:17.399
and the

1740
01:04:17.400 --> 01:04:18.879
songs are going to take some forms

1741
01:04:18.880 --> 01:04:20.799
and I can't predict what.

1742
01:04:20.800 --> 01:04:22.060
I just hope it won't be AI.

1743
01:04:23.160 --> 01:04:24.979
I want the human heart beating.

1744
01:04:24.980 --> 01:04:26.799
I want a human soul.

1745
01:04:26.800 --> 01:04:28.439
I want...

1746
01:04:28.440 --> 01:04:29.919
But what would you say, Stephen?

1747
01:04:29.920 --> 01:04:31.799
Well, I

1748
01:04:31.800 --> 01:04:33.799
don't know, it's a very hard

1749
01:04:33.800 --> 01:04:35.659
question, I think, and

1750
01:04:35.660 --> 01:04:37.459
you're right, everybody who is at

1751
01:04:37.460 --> 01:04:39.519
all concerned with such things

1752
01:04:39.520 --> 01:04:41.399
has noticed exactly what

1753
01:04:41.400 --> 01:04:42.879
you were saying.

1754
01:04:42.880 --> 01:04:44.819
There is no longer a

1755
01:04:44.820 --> 01:04:47.259
regular poetry reviewer

1756
01:04:47.260 --> 01:04:48.840
in the New Yorker.

1757
01:04:50.100 --> 01:04:52.179
Fiction is reviewed all the time

1758
01:04:52.180 --> 01:04:53.799
there.

1759
01:04:53.800 --> 01:04:55.719
poetry, not so much, reviews

1760
01:04:55.720 --> 01:04:57.739
of most books these days

1761
01:04:57.740 --> 01:04:59.420
are in small magazines.

1762
01:05:01.970 --> 01:05:03.949
Poetry has changed a little

1763
01:05:03.950 --> 01:05:04.909
bit.

1764
01:05:04.910 --> 01:05:06.749
And I hope that

1765
01:05:06.750 --> 01:05:09.109
it hasn't changed forever.

1766
01:05:09.110 --> 01:05:11.509
I'm concerned, especially

1767
01:05:11.510 --> 01:05:13.529
with the music

1768
01:05:13.530 --> 01:05:15.969
that is meter, that

1769
01:05:15.970 --> 01:05:17.889
seems to me to have a lot

1770
01:05:17.890 --> 01:05:20.329
to do with coherence

1771
01:05:20.330 --> 01:05:22.509
of verbal works.

1772
01:05:23.950 --> 01:05:25.829
For me, the line is

1773
01:05:25.830 --> 01:05:26.830
the issue.

1774
01:05:27.770 --> 01:05:29.889
I mean, poems for me have always

1775
01:05:29.890 --> 01:05:31.849
been this is what I brought

1776
01:05:31.850 --> 01:05:33.029
up.

1777
01:05:33.030 --> 01:05:34.549
Learning was that they are made in

1778
01:05:34.550 --> 01:05:35.550
lines.

1779
01:05:36.230 --> 01:05:38.629
Everything follows from that.

1780
01:05:38.630 --> 01:05:40.849
There's a beginning and an ending.

1781
01:05:40.850 --> 01:05:42.829
There's this structure built

1782
01:05:42.830 --> 01:05:45.009
in. And there are ways to

1783
01:05:45.010 --> 01:05:46.010
get to the end.

1784
01:05:51.100 --> 01:05:52.919
This, I think if

1785
01:05:52.920 --> 01:05:55.019
we lose that, if we lose

1786
01:05:55.020 --> 01:05:57.159
the basis of

1787
01:05:57.160 --> 01:05:59.099
meter, that is to say

1788
01:05:59.100 --> 01:06:00.999
a structure in the length

1789
01:06:01.000 --> 01:06:02.899
of the line, then we have

1790
01:06:02.900 --> 01:06:04.719
lost something significant that

1791
01:06:04.720 --> 01:06:07.039
will change the art just

1792
01:06:07.040 --> 01:06:08.159
forever.

1793
01:06:08.160 --> 01:06:10.339
I mean, the poet is the one writer

1794
01:06:10.340 --> 01:06:12.319
who is

1795
01:06:12.320 --> 01:06:14.239
not controlled by

1796
01:06:14.240 --> 01:06:16.159
the typesetter.

1797
01:06:17.960 --> 01:06:19.799
You turn your essay in, you turn

1798
01:06:19.800 --> 01:06:21.699
your poetry in, and the line breaks

1799
01:06:21.700 --> 01:06:23.919
come wherever they will.

1800
01:06:23.920 --> 01:06:25.579
But if you're a poet, you've got to

1801
01:06:25.580 --> 01:06:26.459
end a line.

1802
01:06:26.460 --> 01:06:28.259
You've got all this white space.

1803
01:06:28.260 --> 01:06:30.139
And that is what makes

1804
01:06:30.140 --> 01:06:31.140
the difference,

1805
01:06:32.040 --> 01:06:34.119
the absence there,

1806
01:06:34.120 --> 01:06:36.159
which is also full of

1807
01:06:36.160 --> 01:06:37.599
possibility.

1808
01:06:37.600 --> 01:06:40.599
And so once you throw that out,

1809
01:06:40.600 --> 01:06:42.879
you get things like flash fiction

1810
01:06:42.880 --> 01:06:44.560
and prose poetry.

1811
01:06:45.600 --> 01:06:47.499
which are terms that don't have

1812
01:06:47.500 --> 01:06:49.899
nearly the solidity and

1813
01:06:49.900 --> 01:06:51.919
the crispness of

1814
01:06:51.920 --> 01:06:52.920
poetry.

1815
01:06:55.930 --> 01:06:56.970
Thank you for the question.

1816
01:06:59.140 --> 01:07:00.039
It's all right.

1817
01:07:00.040 --> 01:07:01.040
A couple.

1818
01:07:04.720 --> 01:07:06.959
Hi there, I'm Sana and

1819
01:07:06.960 --> 01:07:08.919
I'm an amateur,

1820
01:07:08.920 --> 01:07:11.179
not immature, but

1821
01:07:11.180 --> 01:07:13.159
when it comes to poetry

1822
01:07:13.160 --> 01:07:14.739
because I just listen to it like I

1823
01:07:14.740 --> 01:07:16.679
listen to music for

1824
01:07:16.680 --> 01:07:18.779
leisure. So my question isn't

1825
01:07:18.780 --> 01:07:20.899
about the mechanics of

1826
01:07:20.900 --> 01:07:22.839
your poetry but more about

1827
01:07:22.840 --> 01:07:24.959
you and what your philosophy

1828
01:07:24.960 --> 01:07:26.079
of life is.

1829
01:07:26.080 --> 01:07:27.819
And I realized there was this common

1830
01:07:27.820 --> 01:07:29.919
theme of just

1831
01:07:29.920 --> 01:07:31.899
looking from the lens of

1832
01:07:31.900 --> 01:07:34.039
a specific protagonist in

1833
01:07:34.040 --> 01:07:35.029
your poems.

1834
01:07:35.030 --> 01:07:36.949
So do you have any advice for

1835
01:07:36.950 --> 01:07:39.169
like us 20-year-old women

1836
01:07:39.170 --> 01:07:41.169
for how to live the best

1837
01:07:41.170 --> 01:07:42.110
life? How do we?

1838
01:07:42.111 --> 01:07:43.869
how to live the best life?

1839
01:07:43.870 --> 01:07:45.369
Oh my goodness, Socrates would like

1840
01:07:45.370 --> 01:07:46.649
to answer that, and I am not

1841
01:07:46.650 --> 01:07:47.650
Socrates.

1842
01:07:49.010 --> 01:07:50.849
No, in your opinion.

1843
01:07:50.850 --> 01:07:51.850
Whoa.

1844
01:07:52.210 --> 01:07:53.959
The fourth opinion

1845
01:07:53.960 --> 01:07:55.759
A wonderful question, a serious

1846
01:07:55.760 --> 01:07:56.619
question.

1847
01:07:56.620 --> 01:07:58.619
I don't presume to

1848
01:07:58.620 --> 01:08:00.899
know how to tell anybody how to

1849
01:08:00.900 --> 01:08:02.779
live a good life, let alone the best

1850
01:08:02.780 --> 01:08:03.780
life.

1851
01:08:05.400 --> 01:08:07.339
But what can I say

1852
01:08:07.340 --> 01:08:09.139
if I were even trying to advise

1853
01:08:09.140 --> 01:08:10.720
myself or my daughters?

1854
01:08:13.000 --> 01:08:14.000
Oh my goodness.

1855
01:08:16.770 --> 01:08:17.770
Well,

1856
01:08:18.630 --> 01:08:20.609
something that I

1857
01:08:20.610 --> 01:08:23.349
have found myself thinking

1858
01:08:23.350 --> 01:08:25.489
and also suggesting

1859
01:08:25.490 --> 01:08:28.349
to my students when I had students

1860
01:08:28.350 --> 01:08:30.369
was the value of a

1861
01:08:30.370 --> 01:08:31.370
free mind.

1862
01:08:33.620 --> 01:08:35.360
And by that I mean the independence.

1863
01:08:38.000 --> 01:08:40.039
look around,

1864
01:08:40.040 --> 01:08:41.319
test many ideas,

1865
01:08:42.540 --> 01:08:44.839
test it against other

1866
01:08:44.840 --> 01:08:46.780
ideas, read history.

1867
01:08:49.770 --> 01:08:51.670
So you're not trapped.

1868
01:08:55.500 --> 01:08:58.679
somebody else's prefabricated

1869
01:08:58.680 --> 01:09:01.499
vision of what you should be

1870
01:09:01.500 --> 01:09:03.619
or what is good.

1871
01:09:03.620 --> 01:09:05.599
And I find that

1872
01:09:05.600 --> 01:09:07.679
these days, more and more

1873
01:09:07.680 --> 01:09:08.680
with

1874
01:09:11.780 --> 01:09:13.619
immersion in,

1875
01:09:13.620 --> 01:09:16.719
well,

1876
01:09:16.720 --> 01:09:18.259
advertising but more than

1877
01:09:18.260 --> 01:09:19.879
advertising in a way the...

1878
01:09:21.970 --> 01:09:23.809
the digital world of

1879
01:09:23.810 --> 01:09:25.589
a way of sort of occupying our

1880
01:09:25.590 --> 01:09:27.449
minds, colonizing our

1881
01:09:27.450 --> 01:09:28.450
intelligence,

1882
01:09:29.270 --> 01:09:30.789
that it seems to me more and more

1883
01:09:30.790 --> 01:09:32.729
crucial to find ways to

1884
01:09:32.730 --> 01:09:35.009
free your mind, to say,

1885
01:09:35.010 --> 01:09:36.809
what is colonizing my mind?

1886
01:09:36.810 --> 01:09:38.449
What ideas, what images are being

1887
01:09:38.450 --> 01:09:40.409
presented or being infiltrating

1888
01:09:40.410 --> 01:09:42.269
my brain about what I should be

1889
01:09:42.270 --> 01:09:44.449
wanting or who I should to be?

1890
01:09:44.450 --> 01:09:46.150
And that's, I think, partly why.

1891
01:09:48.440 --> 01:09:49.480
need poetry.

1892
01:09:50.660 --> 01:09:52.619
For me, poetry is

1893
01:09:52.620 --> 01:09:54.559
an area, the page is for me

1894
01:09:54.560 --> 01:09:56.699
an area of independence.

1895
01:09:56.700 --> 01:09:58.579
It's my hand, it's my

1896
01:09:58.580 --> 01:10:01.199
paper, it is my white space.

1897
01:10:01.200 --> 01:10:02.819
It is my years and years of

1898
01:10:02.820 --> 01:10:04.739
memorizing and having

1899
01:10:04.740 --> 01:10:06.439
lines of other people, great poems

1900
01:10:06.440 --> 01:10:08.539
in my head that I can then

1901
01:10:08.540 --> 01:10:09.759
change and use and steal.

1902
01:10:12.740 --> 01:10:14.160
That's a form of freedom.

1903
01:10:15.520 --> 01:10:17.179
And it doesn't have to be done in

1904
01:10:17.180 --> 01:10:18.759
poetry. You do it in mathematics.

1905
01:10:18.760 --> 01:10:19.619
You do in music.

1906
01:10:19.620 --> 01:10:21.819
You do do it history.

1907
01:10:23.480 --> 01:10:24.839
I don't know if that makes sense to

1908
01:10:24.840 --> 01:10:26.939
you. But I almost feel that it's

1909
01:10:26.940 --> 01:10:28.359
almost, I feel like we're almost in

1910
01:10:28.360 --> 01:10:30.459
a campaign now to ask,

1911
01:10:30.460 --> 01:10:32.619
to suggest that we all need to

1912
01:10:32.620 --> 01:10:34.719
make sure our minds are free,

1913
01:10:34.720 --> 01:10:36.159
that our minds have not been

1914
01:10:36.160 --> 01:10:37.639
infiltrated.

1915
01:10:37.640 --> 01:10:38.999
Because there are a lot of forces

1916
01:10:39.000 --> 01:10:40.839
out there who are working very

1917
01:10:40.840 --> 01:10:42.099
hard to infiltrate our minds.

1918
01:10:43.500 --> 01:10:45.940
And they're very good at it.

1919
01:10:47.120 --> 01:10:48.620
Sorry, I don't mean to be preaching.

1920
01:10:54.400 --> 01:10:55.440
There's a hand there.

1921
01:11:00.870 --> 01:11:02.489
and then we should probably stop at

1922
01:11:02.490 --> 01:11:04.469
some point. Yeah, you're right,

1923
01:11:04.470 --> 01:11:05.969
we should. Okay, yeah, well, maybe

1924
01:11:05.970 --> 01:11:06.939
after this question.

1925
01:11:06.940 --> 01:11:08.179
because it's getting late.

1926
01:11:09.200 --> 01:11:10.359
Hi.

1927
01:11:10.360 --> 01:11:12.839
Well, first of all, thank you for

1928
01:11:12.840 --> 01:11:13.840
your ratings.

1929
01:11:15.760 --> 01:11:17.919
My question is regarding

1930
01:11:17.920 --> 01:11:18.920
translation,

1931
01:11:21.380 --> 01:11:23.399
because I studied in

1932
01:11:23.400 --> 01:11:25.100
French from a very young age.

1933
01:11:26.300 --> 01:11:28.379
And now it's the first time I'm

1934
01:11:28.380 --> 01:11:29.780
doing academics in English.

1935
01:11:31.040 --> 01:11:32.439
And going from one language to

1936
01:11:32.440 --> 01:11:34.459
another is another way

1937
01:11:34.460 --> 01:11:36.269
of twisting around your brain.

1938
01:11:36.270 --> 01:11:37.669
So going from one language to

1939
01:11:37.670 --> 01:11:39.009
another is kind of like, sometimes

1940
01:11:39.010 --> 01:11:40.609
like, I'm writing in English, but

1941
01:11:40.610 --> 01:11:42.689
sometimes there are French things

1942
01:11:42.690 --> 01:11:44.569
that are coming into my English.

1943
01:11:44.570 --> 01:11:47.609
So I was wondering how

1944
01:11:47.610 --> 01:11:49.469
translation works for you

1945
01:11:49.470 --> 01:11:51.869
and also do you think it's also

1946
01:11:51.870 --> 01:11:53.889
kind of playing

1947
01:11:53.890 --> 01:11:55.729
with languages, playing a

1948
01:11:55.730 --> 01:11:57.589
music when you're trying

1949
01:11:57.590 --> 01:11:59.509
to bridge those two different

1950
01:11:59.510 --> 01:12:00.859
words together?

1951
01:12:00.860 --> 01:12:02.260
Oh, I love that question.

1952
01:12:03.440 --> 01:12:05.719
I translate a lot in

1953
01:12:05.720 --> 01:12:07.019
my life, partly because, partly

1954
01:12:07.020 --> 01:12:08.799
growing up in France and memorizing

1955
01:12:08.800 --> 01:12:10.859
a lot of French poetry, but also

1956
01:12:10.860 --> 01:12:12.519
working with Italian and Greek and

1957
01:12:12.520 --> 01:12:13.520
Latin.

1958
01:12:14.300 --> 01:12:16.199
And in fact, I help to edit

1959
01:12:16.200 --> 01:12:18.379
a whole translation series at

1960
01:12:18.380 --> 01:12:20.159
Princeton University Press for

1961
01:12:20.160 --> 01:12:21.299
translation of other people's

1962
01:12:21.300 --> 01:12:22.619
poetry. So I'm thinking about

1963
01:12:22.620 --> 01:12:23.899
translation all the time.

1964
01:12:23.900 --> 01:12:25.799
It's like, I'd love your

1965
01:12:25.800 --> 01:12:27.779
question. I think it's important,

1966
01:12:27.780 --> 01:12:28.780
really important.

1967
01:12:32.620 --> 01:12:34.939
that you have a great

1968
01:12:34.940 --> 01:12:37.259
opportunity, you have great

1969
01:12:37.260 --> 01:12:39.659
treasury of language,

1970
01:12:39.660 --> 01:12:41.559
and culture, and forms

1971
01:12:41.560 --> 01:12:43.559
in your mind because you've grown up

1972
01:12:43.560 --> 01:12:45.259
into, you have two languages, maybe

1973
01:12:45.260 --> 01:12:47.359
you have more than two.

1974
01:12:47.360 --> 01:12:48.420
And so.

1975
01:12:50.620 --> 01:12:52.859
there are, I think,

1976
01:12:52.860 --> 01:12:54.959
no language is impermeable,

1977
01:12:54.960 --> 01:12:56.779
right? There doesn't have, there's

1978
01:12:56.780 --> 01:12:58.879
no passport control between French

1979
01:12:58.880 --> 01:13:00.939
and English, or between Swahili

1980
01:13:00.940 --> 01:13:02.559
and English.

1981
01:13:02.560 --> 01:13:04.539
Words, we all know this,

1982
01:13:04.540 --> 01:13:07.119
languages, words travel,

1983
01:13:07.120 --> 01:13:09.699
but this cultural interaction

1984
01:13:09.700 --> 01:13:11.719
all the time, every language is

1985
01:13:11.720 --> 01:13:13.619
permeated by words from other

1986
01:13:13.620 --> 01:13:15.439
cultures and

1987
01:13:15.440 --> 01:13:17.899
the forms travel

1988
01:13:17.900 --> 01:13:19.899
so

1989
01:13:19.900 --> 01:13:21.829
that, Free verse,

1990
01:13:21.830 --> 01:13:23.709
for instance, Ver Libre,

1991
01:13:23.710 --> 01:13:26.009
is partly, you might say,

1992
01:13:26.010 --> 01:13:27.909
an American phenomenon in

1993
01:13:27.910 --> 01:13:29.229
the 19th century with Whitman, but

1994
01:13:29.230 --> 01:13:32.689
it's also deeply French with,

1995
01:13:32.690 --> 01:13:34.609
you know, Rambo

1996
01:13:34.610 --> 01:13:36.689
and Jules Laforgue and the

1997
01:13:36.690 --> 01:13:38.209
experiments in Ver Libres in the

1998
01:13:38.210 --> 01:13:39.430
last part of the 19 century.

1999
01:13:41.290 --> 01:13:43.569
So I think that

2000
01:13:43.570 --> 01:13:45.589
it's really important

2001
01:13:45.590 --> 01:13:48.489
not to be monocultural.

2002
01:13:48.490 --> 01:13:50.609
or monolingual, it's really

2003
01:13:50.610 --> 01:13:52.729
important to open our minds to

2004
01:13:52.730 --> 01:13:55.449
other languages and other cultures

2005
01:13:55.450 --> 01:13:57.429
and learn and

2006
01:13:57.430 --> 01:13:59.889
share and be inspired

2007
01:13:59.890 --> 01:14:01.989
and expand our imaginations

2008
01:14:01.990 --> 01:14:03.510
about what it is to be human.

2009
01:14:04.970 --> 01:14:09.149
You're so lucky to

2010
01:14:09.150 --> 01:14:11.269
be able to write in two languages.

2011
01:14:11.270 --> 01:14:12.409
I'll just add one thing.

2012
01:14:13.430 --> 01:14:15.249
I invent, sort of some,

2013
01:14:15.250 --> 01:14:16.669
I don't know, 20-something years

2014
01:14:16.670 --> 01:14:18.679
ago, I was young.

2015
01:14:18.680 --> 01:14:20.079
mother, probably it was more like 30

2016
01:14:20.080 --> 01:14:21.919
years ago now,

2017
01:14:21.920 --> 01:14:23.899
living in the suburbs, teaching

2018
01:14:23.900 --> 01:14:24.900
in Boston,

2019
01:14:25.720 --> 01:14:27.340
and tired of this,

2020
01:14:28.580 --> 01:14:29.670
not tired, no, no.

2021
01:14:30.940 --> 01:14:32.759
Frustrated about this sort

2022
01:14:32.760 --> 01:14:33.760
of.

2023
01:14:37.080 --> 01:14:39.299
maternal marital pattern.

2024
01:14:39.300 --> 01:14:41.559
And so I invented a French poet.

2025
01:14:41.560 --> 01:14:43.499
I invented of a French Poet

2026
01:14:43.500 --> 01:14:45.199
called Anne Vervain who was not

2027
01:14:45.200 --> 01:14:47.379
married and had children and

2028
01:14:47.380 --> 01:14:49.139
was in France.

2029
01:14:49.140 --> 01:14:51.119
And I wrote her poems,

2030
01:14:51.120 --> 01:14:53.019
which were, and I pretended,

2031
01:14:53.020 --> 01:14:54.879
I wrote them in English,

2032
01:14:54.880 --> 01:14:56.339
but then I translated them into

2033
01:14:56.340 --> 01:14:57.539
French and they were published in

2034
01:14:57.540 --> 01:14:58.779
France and they also published in

2035
01:14:58.780 --> 01:15:00.059
this country. And they were in a

2036
01:15:00.060 --> 01:15:01.159
different voice from mine,

2037
01:15:02.220 --> 01:15:03.700
from my English voice.

2038
01:15:05.330 --> 01:15:07.229
I even got jealous of Anne Vervain

2039
01:15:07.230 --> 01:15:08.349
because she began to be published

2040
01:15:08.350 --> 01:15:09.549
all over the place and I thought,

2041
01:15:09.550 --> 01:15:10.609
you know, oh my God, she's taking

2042
01:15:10.610 --> 01:15:11.610
over.

2043
01:15:12.210 --> 01:15:15.369
But it was a great adventure to

2044
01:15:15.370 --> 01:15:17.909
write and so that's

2045
01:15:17.910 --> 01:15:19.429
just a little story about

2046
01:15:19.430 --> 01:15:21.389
translation that entered my life in

2047
01:15:21.390 --> 01:15:23.089
a really radical way for a while,

2048
01:15:23.090 --> 01:15:24.949
Anne Vervein.

2049
01:15:24.950 --> 01:15:26.249
It was really fun to be somebody

2050
01:15:26.250 --> 01:15:27.250
else.

2051
01:15:28.490 --> 01:15:30.389
I advise you might like

2052
01:15:30.390 --> 01:15:31.849
to try to be someone else for a

2053
01:15:31.850 --> 01:15:32.749
little while and write those other

2054
01:15:32.750 --> 01:15:34.119
person's palms.

2055
01:15:34.120 --> 01:15:35.120
It's quite refreshing.

2056
01:15:36.940 --> 01:15:38.859
That's a great point on which

2057
01:15:38.860 --> 01:15:40.779
to end, so thank

2058
01:15:40.780 --> 01:15:41.720
you, thank you all very much.

2059
01:15:41.721 --> 01:15:42.721
Thank you so much.

2060
01:15:43.820 --> 01:15:44.820
Thank you.

2061
01:15:47.520 --> 01:15:48.639
Thank you so much.

2062
01:15:48.640 --> 01:15:49.799
That was really cool.

2063
01:15:49.800 --> 01:15:50.800
Thank you.