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Hi, everyone.

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Welcome to the Bay-Nimoy

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Studio.

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I'm Claudia Bestor, I'm the director

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of public programs here at the

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Hammer Museum. And I want to welcome

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you all to today's program,

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voices of the diaspora, organized

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by the Asian American Pacific

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Islander Arts Network or AAPIAN.

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Do people say AAPIAN, yes?

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That's what I thought.

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AAPIAN's invited artists, teachers

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and curators to here to discuss

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the evolving nature of decolonizes

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pedagogies in academic institutions

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and their impact on current and

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future curricula in the arts and

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humanities.

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Today's program is split into three

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parts a keynote presentation and

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two panels.

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And after the second panel we'll

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have some light refreshments.

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And we can talk more about all the

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ideas that our illustrious guest

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speakers bring up today.

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Each panel will be introduced by

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independent curator, writer and art

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historian Danielle Shang.

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Danielle's research and curatorial

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projects focus on the impact of

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globalization, urban renewal,

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social change, and class

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restructuring on artmaking

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and the narrative of art history.

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Danielle has been a driving force in

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organizing today's program.

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So I really want to

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thank her, and I want all of you to

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join me in giving her thanks and a

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very warm welcome.

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Danielle. Sean.

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Good afternoon everyone.

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Thank you so much for being here in

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a very busy week.

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I wanted to begin by stating

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that I would not be performing

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a land acknowledgment today,

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because this ritual does not

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demand tangible actions

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towards repatriating land

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resources and governing power

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to indigenous peoples.

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It is incommensurable.

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As Frantz Fanon argued

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in 1963,

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incommensurability is

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an acknowledgment that

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a decolonization would

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require a change in the

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order of the world.

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In other words, decolonization

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cannot be reduced to

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negotiation and a reform

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within existing structures

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that leave colonial systems

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intact.

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Instead, it calls for

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a fundamental transformation

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of institutions,

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epistemologies, cultural

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values, and historical

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narratives over

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annual symposium voices

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of the diaspora seeks

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to explore with such systematic

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change might look like

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through critical pedagogy,

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self-education and

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public engagement.

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Our two panels would discuss

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strategies for transforming

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educational practices,

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expanding knowledge beyond

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West centric frameworks,

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and the holding institutions

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accountable to the communities

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they serve.

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Participants will also interrogate

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the complexities of

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decolonization,

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its intersection with the

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contemporary settler colonialism,

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and the persistent barriers

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to indigenous sovereignty,

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self-determination, and land

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restitution.

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By engaging in these conversations,

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we aim to move beyond acknowledgment

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towards action.

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It is my great honor to

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introduce our keynote speaker,

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Porfirio Gutierrez,

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a Zapotec American textile

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artist based in Ventura.

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Rooted in the traditional Zapotec

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technology of natural dyes

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and materials.

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His work redefines the language

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of Zapotec, waving

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to reflects contemporary experiences

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and the layered complexities

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of the Americas today.

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By reinterpreting ancestral

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knowledge not as a romantic

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past, but a vivid

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present.

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Gutierrez challenges

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the imposed dialectic

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of art versus craft,

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an opposition he sees

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as the limiting to contemporary

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indigenous creative expression

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for him to artistic

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freedom lies in breaking

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with the convention while

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honoring the depth of his

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cultural heritage.

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Please join me in welcoming

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Porfirio Gutierrez.

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[Untranslated Zapotec]. Reciban

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cordial saludo de la nacion

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Zapoteca.

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Please receive greetings from the

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Zapotec nation.

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In Zapotec today

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there isn't word for artist.

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The closest to that is

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Wynonna, meaning

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someone that holds wisdom

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historically.

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When a baby is born within our

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community.

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There's a lot of

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offerings, prayers,

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ceremonies around the pregnancy,

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especially when the baby's born.

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Once the baby here in this earth,

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then the parents would take the baby

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to a spiritual leader of the

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community to help the

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parents understand

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the responsibility of the baby

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to the community and guide

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their baby to their responsibility.

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Our education, and in

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a way existing as an artist, comes

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from that of from those values.

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And the current system does not

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welcome or does not

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respect those kind of understanding

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when it comes to arts,

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when it comes to learning and when

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it comes to education.

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And so the current system depletes

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the opportunity of us participating

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within that system, unless you're

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perpetuating

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those those systems.

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And so what I'm doing here

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in this earth and as an artist, I'm

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fulfilling the responsibility

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that my ancestors has

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prayed for me.

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The offerings that they're they

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give when I was born.

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Returning this through my art

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practice,

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when I think about education and

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how that mirrors to

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traditional education of our

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community.

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As an artist myself, I

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do not play a role or I'm not

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welcome in so many ways and

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within that system, because

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also I do not have a formal

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education and the arts.

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According to the Western education.

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And so

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meditating through this

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conversation, I think

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about

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our education as an artist

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come from a spiritual understanding

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and responsibility and

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not from a certification

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and expensive certification.

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And so I hope

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my work and these conversation

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would allow these other perspective.

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But more than perspective would

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allow us to think about

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a different reality because

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it's not it's not linear.

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Thank you.

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Our first panel, Decolonizing

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Education, we're critically

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examining whether two decolonization

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is possible within an educational

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system inherently designed

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to uphold settler colonial

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structures.

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The panelists would integrate

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interrogate

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the slippery process of

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decolonizing knowledge in

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universities where education

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is self is a commodity.

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They will also discuss current

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curricula and their own pedagogical

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approaches to explore

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alternative models.

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Moderator process.

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Young artists and a faculty

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member and a Cal State Long

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Beach is joined at by

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Stephen Lam, curator

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and the Dean of Local Arts.

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Nery Gabrielle Lemus, artist

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and educator and a Souza

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Pacific and USC

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Pulp and Party Support

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Artists Professor

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at UCSD, and a Candice

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Lynn artist and a

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and faculty member at UCLA.

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Please help me welcome

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our speakers.

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Thank you everyone for

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joining us today.

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First, I'd like to introduce our

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panelists a little bit more in

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depth.

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Stephen Lamb is dean in the

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school of Art at Cal Arts and has

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taught at numerous institutions,

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including Cooper Union in New York

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City, purchased college in New York,

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and Emily Carr University

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of Art and Design in Vancouver.

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As a curator, lamb has produced

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curatorial projects that address

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diverse range of questions,

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such as the legacy of Aids activism

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and contemporary art, the

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relationship between

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financialization and abstraction

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within the rural American landscape,

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and the politics and forms of

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secrecy.

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Nettie Gambrell Lemus,

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born 1977, Los Angeles,

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California is a multidisciplinary

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artist who lives and works

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in Pasadena, California.

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His work explores a range of

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subjects including divisions,

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Stereotypes and immigration.

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His work also highlights the poetics

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of empowerment and

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self-determination of marginalized

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communities.

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Period.

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Lemus received his.

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BFA.

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And at the Artcenter College

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of Design in Pasadena, California,

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and his MFA at the California

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Institute of the Arts in Valencia.

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Lemus attended the Skowhegan School

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of Painting and Sculpture in Maine.

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He is a recipient of a California

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Community Foundation Fellowship,

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a Color Fellowship, a

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grant from the Department of

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Cultural Affairs, Los Angeles,

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the Rima Hartman Foundation

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Fellowship Award, and a Lace

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Lightning Fund Grant.

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He is represented by Charlie James

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Gallery in Los Angeles

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and is Associate Professor of

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Art at, as You said, Pacific

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00:11:32.120 --> 00:11:34.340
University, and teaches at USC.

297
00:11:37.370 --> 00:11:39.379
Paul and Pudgy

298
00:11:39.380 --> 00:11:40.429
Sequoia.

299
00:11:40.430 --> 00:11:42.499
Born in San Bernardino, California,

300
00:11:42.500 --> 00:11:44.419
is a large Angeles based artist

301
00:11:44.420 --> 00:11:46.309
working in photography.

302
00:11:46.310 --> 00:11:47.779
His work is in the collections of

303
00:11:47.780 --> 00:11:49.669
the Getty, hammer, Lama,

304
00:11:49.670 --> 00:11:51.769
MoMA, SFMoMA, Whitney,

305
00:11:51.770 --> 00:11:53.779
Guggenheim, Stedelijk, and

306
00:11:53.780 --> 00:11:56.089
Tate Modern, among others.

307
00:11:56.090 --> 00:11:57.799
His recent body of work deal at

308
00:11:57.800 --> 00:12:00.319
Studio Slash Darkroom

309
00:12:00.320 --> 00:12:02.299
Studio has been exhibited in

310
00:12:02.300 --> 00:12:04.159
solo exhibitions at

311
00:12:04.160 --> 00:12:06.319
Ville Metter, Los Angeles, The Dike

312
00:12:06.320 --> 00:12:08.569
Doctor Island in Hamburg,

313
00:12:08.570 --> 00:12:10.729
Galerie Peter Kilbourne in

314
00:12:10.730 --> 00:12:12.919
Paris and Zurich, and a survey

315
00:12:12.920 --> 00:12:15.379
exhibition at Nottingham Nottingham

316
00:12:15.380 --> 00:12:16.820
Contemporary in the UK.

317
00:12:18.380 --> 00:12:20.479
A new artist's book monograph, Dark

318
00:12:20.480 --> 00:12:22.549
Room A to Z, was just published

319
00:12:22.550 --> 00:12:25.189
by Aperture in fall 2024.

320
00:12:25.190 --> 00:12:27.409
His most recent exhibition, trance,

321
00:12:27.410 --> 00:12:29.549
opened this January at Bordello

322
00:12:29.550 --> 00:12:31.699
in New York and runs through March

323
00:12:31.700 --> 00:12:34.039
8th, and an upcoming project will

324
00:12:34.040 --> 00:12:36.709
be presented at the Mercosur

325
00:12:36.710 --> 00:12:38.629
Biennial in Porto Alegre,

326
00:12:38.630 --> 00:12:40.189
Brazil, this spring.

327
00:12:40.190 --> 00:12:42.229
He is associate professor in

328
00:12:42.230 --> 00:12:43.819
media arts at the University of

329
00:12:43.820 --> 00:12:45.259
California, San Diego.

330
00:12:49.070 --> 00:12:51.589
Candace Lin born 1979,

331
00:12:51.590 --> 00:12:53.389
Concord, Massachusetts, lives and

332
00:12:53.390 --> 00:12:55.699
works in Altadena, California.

333
00:12:55.700 --> 00:12:57.529
She received her BA in Visual

334
00:12:57.530 --> 00:12:59.539
Arts and Art semiotics from Brown

335
00:12:59.540 --> 00:13:01.639
University in 2001,

336
00:13:01.640 --> 00:13:03.589
and MFA in New Genres from

337
00:13:03.590 --> 00:13:05.119
San Francisco Art Institute.

338
00:13:05.120 --> 00:13:07.099
In 2004.

339
00:13:07.100 --> 00:13:09.229
Her practices utilized

340
00:13:09.230 --> 00:13:11.569
utilizes installation, drawing,

341
00:13:11.570 --> 00:13:13.279
video, and living materials and

342
00:13:13.280 --> 00:13:15.439
processes such as plants,

343
00:13:15.440 --> 00:13:17.299
mold, bacteria and flora,

344
00:13:17.300 --> 00:13:19.759
age, distillation, fermentation,

345
00:13:19.760 --> 00:13:20.760
and stains.

346
00:13:25.190 --> 00:13:27.169
So, our first panel of

347
00:13:27.170 --> 00:13:29.179
artists and arts educators

348
00:13:29.180 --> 00:13:30.949
has been invited here today to speak

349
00:13:30.950 --> 00:13:33.349
about the challenges and potential

350
00:13:33.350 --> 00:13:35.569
of decolonizing education

351
00:13:35.570 --> 00:13:37.190
within the arts and humanities.

352
00:13:38.440 --> 00:13:40.359
I first encountered this phrase

353
00:13:40.360 --> 00:13:41.739
about a decade ago, when I was a

354
00:13:41.740 --> 00:13:43.629
part time arts educator working

355
00:13:43.630 --> 00:13:46.239
with youth in grades 3 to 12,

356
00:13:46.240 --> 00:13:48.219
in an after school arts program in

357
00:13:48.220 --> 00:13:50.619
MacArthur Park, Los Angeles.

358
00:13:50.620 --> 00:13:51.999
At the time, I understood

359
00:13:52.000 --> 00:13:53.589
decolonizing your syllabus

360
00:13:53.590 --> 00:13:55.599
colloquially equating

361
00:13:55.600 --> 00:13:56.949
it with Decentering, the

362
00:13:56.950 --> 00:13:58.899
predominantly white, Western and

363
00:13:58.900 --> 00:14:01.389
Eurocentric canon of artists,

364
00:14:01.390 --> 00:14:03.609
art history, geographies and culture

365
00:14:03.610 --> 00:14:05.679
and cultures in my institution

366
00:14:05.680 --> 00:14:06.880
and teaching materials.

367
00:14:07.900 --> 00:14:09.279
Once I began teaching at the

368
00:14:09.280 --> 00:14:11.109
university level,

369
00:14:11.110 --> 00:14:13.119
the equity, diversity, inclusion

370
00:14:13.120 --> 00:14:15.609
and anti-racism of my educational

371
00:14:15.610 --> 00:14:17.739
ethics deepened to include a stance

372
00:14:17.740 --> 00:14:19.659
toward de naturalizing

373
00:14:19.660 --> 00:14:21.069
the defaults of enlightenment

374
00:14:21.070 --> 00:14:23.229
perspectives, Cartesian

375
00:14:23.230 --> 00:14:26.019
worldviews, and modernist legacies,

376
00:14:26.020 --> 00:14:27.159
frameworks that have been

377
00:14:27.160 --> 00:14:28.749
foundational in teaching art and

378
00:14:28.750 --> 00:14:29.750
critical thinking.

379
00:14:31.270 --> 00:14:33.099
While approaches like these might

380
00:14:33.100 --> 00:14:35.079
align with an anti-colonial

381
00:14:35.080 --> 00:14:36.219
undertaking.

382
00:14:36.220 --> 00:14:38.020
They are not decolonial.

383
00:14:40.510 --> 00:14:42.399
Indigenous scholar and NYU

384
00:14:42.400 --> 00:14:44.529
professor Eve Turk and UCSD

385
00:14:44.530 --> 00:14:46.479
ethnic studies professor K

386
00:14:46.480 --> 00:14:48.639
Wayne Yang critique

387
00:14:48.640 --> 00:14:50.589
the widespread appropriation of

388
00:14:50.590 --> 00:14:52.899
decolonial language in educational

389
00:14:52.900 --> 00:14:54.879
advocacy and scholarship,

390
00:14:54.880 --> 00:14:57.519
pointing to the frequent calls to

391
00:14:57.520 --> 00:14:59.919
decolonize our schools, employ

392
00:14:59.920 --> 00:15:02.229
decolonizing methods, or

393
00:15:02.230 --> 00:15:04.059
decolonize student thinking

394
00:15:04.060 --> 00:15:05.829
as examples of this questionable

395
00:15:05.830 --> 00:15:06.830
engagement.

396
00:15:07.900 --> 00:15:09.819
As their essay

397
00:15:09.820 --> 00:15:13.239
asserts in its title, quote,

398
00:15:13.240 --> 00:15:15.429
decolonization is not

399
00:15:15.430 --> 00:15:16.430
a metaphor.

400
00:15:17.320 --> 00:15:19.119
Further, they write, quote, it is

401
00:15:19.120 --> 00:15:21.009
not a swappable term for other

402
00:15:21.010 --> 00:15:22.929
things we want to do to improve

403
00:15:22.930 --> 00:15:25.389
our societies and schools.

404
00:15:25.390 --> 00:15:27.249
Decolonization doesn't have

405
00:15:27.250 --> 00:15:29.709
a synonym, end quote.

406
00:15:29.710 --> 00:15:31.779
Decolonization is singularly

407
00:15:31.780 --> 00:15:33.789
defined as a repatriation

408
00:15:33.790 --> 00:15:35.439
of land and life to sovereign

409
00:15:35.440 --> 00:15:37.959
indigenous tribes and nations.

410
00:15:37.960 --> 00:15:39.879
The term is incomparable and

411
00:15:39.880 --> 00:15:41.109
unequivocal.

412
00:15:41.110 --> 00:15:42.790
It is incommensurable.

413
00:15:45.340 --> 00:15:47.649
Framed by decolonization as literal

414
00:15:47.650 --> 00:15:49.209
definition and the question of

415
00:15:49.210 --> 00:15:50.559
whether or how.

416
00:15:50.560 --> 00:15:52.389
Decolonization can be enacted

417
00:15:52.390 --> 00:15:53.919
in our programs.

418
00:15:53.920 --> 00:15:55.509
This panel of artists and arts

419
00:15:55.510 --> 00:15:57.429
educators whose pedagogies

420
00:15:57.430 --> 00:15:59.409
interrogate naturalized

421
00:15:59.410 --> 00:16:01.629
ways of looking, framing,

422
00:16:01.630 --> 00:16:03.549
representation, hierarchy,

423
00:16:03.550 --> 00:16:05.379
and authority will

424
00:16:05.380 --> 00:16:07.659
reexamine the use and circulation

425
00:16:07.660 --> 00:16:09.909
of this notion of decolonizing

426
00:16:09.910 --> 00:16:10.910
education.

427
00:16:12.220 --> 00:16:14.049
They take pause and hold

428
00:16:14.050 --> 00:16:15.849
doubt about the ability of

429
00:16:15.850 --> 00:16:17.769
university level arts education

430
00:16:17.770 --> 00:16:19.029
to decolonize.

431
00:16:20.500 --> 00:16:22.689
However, informed by their astute

432
00:16:22.690 --> 00:16:24.519
criticality and visionary art

433
00:16:24.520 --> 00:16:26.349
practices

434
00:16:26.350 --> 00:16:28.569
that work to unsettle a priori

435
00:16:28.570 --> 00:16:30.459
notions of mediums, materials,

436
00:16:30.460 --> 00:16:32.679
and meaning, we can take a closer

437
00:16:32.680 --> 00:16:34.559
look at the complexities we

438
00:16:34.560 --> 00:16:36.329
find ourselves in, and explore the

439
00:16:36.330 --> 00:16:38.369
relationship between a pedagogical

440
00:16:38.370 --> 00:16:40.709
praxis rooted in radical

441
00:16:40.710 --> 00:16:42.599
systemic change

442
00:16:42.600 --> 00:16:45.419
and an ethic of incommensurability,

443
00:16:45.420 --> 00:16:47.519
one that underworlds the settler

444
00:16:47.520 --> 00:16:49.559
present toward indigenous

445
00:16:49.560 --> 00:16:50.560
futures.

446
00:16:51.510 --> 00:16:52.859
We represent faculty and

447
00:16:52.860 --> 00:16:54.569
administrators who teach, work and

448
00:16:54.570 --> 00:16:56.849
thrive on the unceded indigenous

449
00:16:56.850 --> 00:16:58.049
lands of the Chumash.

450
00:16:58.050 --> 00:16:58.889
Tongva.

451
00:16:58.890 --> 00:16:59.759
Fernandinho.

452
00:16:59.760 --> 00:17:01.769
Tuttavia, Caballero

453
00:17:01.770 --> 00:17:03.779
and Kumi I peoples

454
00:17:03.780 --> 00:17:06.179
also known as Long Beach, Valencia,

455
00:17:06.180 --> 00:17:08.369
Los Angeles, Azusa and San Diego.

456
00:17:10.170 --> 00:17:12.239
And so I'd like to

457
00:17:12.240 --> 00:17:14.309
pass the microphone to Steven

458
00:17:14.310 --> 00:17:15.310
Lam.

459
00:17:19.210 --> 00:17:21.088
Quay Pearl for

460
00:17:21.089 --> 00:17:23.249
that amazing introduction.

461
00:17:23.250 --> 00:17:24.598
Give me a second. I've got too much

462
00:17:24.599 --> 00:17:25.599
baggage.

463
00:17:27.089 --> 00:17:28.499
Metaphorically and literally.

464
00:17:28.500 --> 00:17:29.839
So let me get set up.

465
00:17:32.730 --> 00:17:33.730
So

466
00:17:34.800 --> 00:17:36.899
what I want to do today is

467
00:17:36.900 --> 00:17:38.879
three things I

468
00:17:38.880 --> 00:17:41.189
want to reintroduce and revisit

469
00:17:41.190 --> 00:17:42.839
some of the arguments and talk in

470
00:17:42.840 --> 00:17:44.459
gangs. Decolonization is not a

471
00:17:44.460 --> 00:17:45.460
metaphor.

472
00:17:46.650 --> 00:17:48.480
I think the reason why every time

473
00:17:49.950 --> 00:17:51.689
the word decolonization comes up, I

474
00:17:51.690 --> 00:17:53.159
think Google goes Google.

475
00:17:53.160 --> 00:17:55.109
Just, you know, this article pops

476
00:17:55.110 --> 00:17:56.159
up.

477
00:17:56.160 --> 00:17:57.899
And I think the challenge that I'm

478
00:17:57.900 --> 00:17:59.459
seeing is the art world tends to

479
00:17:59.460 --> 00:18:01.709
attach itself too quickly

480
00:18:01.710 --> 00:18:03.179
to the word metaphor and to

481
00:18:03.180 --> 00:18:04.979
decolonization, and it kind of

482
00:18:04.980 --> 00:18:05.980
creates this sort of

483
00:18:07.230 --> 00:18:09.689
impossible binary

484
00:18:09.690 --> 00:18:11.609
of thinking about is

485
00:18:11.610 --> 00:18:13.349
decolonization material versus

486
00:18:13.350 --> 00:18:14.909
metaphor?

487
00:18:14.910 --> 00:18:16.559
Are we tokenization or are we

488
00:18:16.560 --> 00:18:18.539
tokenizing, or is there an attempt

489
00:18:18.540 --> 00:18:20.639
for social transformation?

490
00:18:20.640 --> 00:18:22.469
Like what I want to propose is by

491
00:18:22.470 --> 00:18:24.569
reading this, I think we're missing

492
00:18:24.570 --> 00:18:26.369
one of the most essential elements

493
00:18:26.370 --> 00:18:28.559
in this text, which is a

494
00:18:28.560 --> 00:18:30.239
definition of settler moves to

495
00:18:30.240 --> 00:18:31.709
innocence, so I'll talk about that

496
00:18:31.710 --> 00:18:33.119
in a minute.

497
00:18:33.120 --> 00:18:35.249
I also want to recognize

498
00:18:35.250 --> 00:18:37.079
and acknowledge the fact that we're

499
00:18:37.080 --> 00:18:38.219
in an emergency. We are in an

500
00:18:38.220 --> 00:18:40.199
emergency right now,

501
00:18:40.200 --> 00:18:42.569
where perhaps the context

502
00:18:42.570 --> 00:18:44.459
in 2025 is quite different from

503
00:18:44.460 --> 00:18:46.679
15 years ago, right?

504
00:18:46.680 --> 00:18:48.449
Because right now we're witnessing

505
00:18:48.450 --> 00:18:50.609
the Irish, the erasure, invisible

506
00:18:50.610 --> 00:18:52.559
ization of crucial theories

507
00:18:52.560 --> 00:18:54.179
of difference, whether or not it

508
00:18:54.180 --> 00:18:55.739
includes the censoring of critical

509
00:18:55.740 --> 00:18:57.179
race theory, the banning of black

510
00:18:57.180 --> 00:18:59.189
studies in children's books, how

511
00:18:59.190 --> 00:19:00.869
gender is being used as a banner

512
00:19:00.870 --> 00:19:03.059
term for right wing attempts

513
00:19:03.060 --> 00:19:04.619
to strip rights and suppress

514
00:19:04.620 --> 00:19:06.539
reproductive justice, and,

515
00:19:06.540 --> 00:19:08.279
of course, getting letters called

516
00:19:08.280 --> 00:19:10.439
Dear colleagues that attempt

517
00:19:10.440 --> 00:19:12.149
to restrict Dei.

518
00:19:12.150 --> 00:19:13.589
So I think what I want to do with

519
00:19:13.590 --> 00:19:15.539
this conversation is to recognize

520
00:19:15.540 --> 00:19:17.549
that this is, in fact, a pattern,

521
00:19:17.550 --> 00:19:20.219
right? So we have to disrupt

522
00:19:20.220 --> 00:19:22.019
and understand how we can perhaps

523
00:19:22.020 --> 00:19:24.089
reroute some of those energies

524
00:19:24.090 --> 00:19:26.099
and agencies for the future.

525
00:19:26.100 --> 00:19:27.029
Right.

526
00:19:27.030 --> 00:19:29.689
So while the art world left,

527
00:19:29.690 --> 00:19:31.309
while the while the liberal art

528
00:19:31.310 --> 00:19:33.169
world may be arguing

529
00:19:33.170 --> 00:19:34.819
whether or not land acknowledgments

530
00:19:34.820 --> 00:19:36.799
are effective or not, a far

531
00:19:36.800 --> 00:19:38.779
right acceleration ism is

532
00:19:38.780 --> 00:19:40.399
trying to break everything in its

533
00:19:40.400 --> 00:19:42.319
path under the guise of

534
00:19:42.320 --> 00:19:44.749
anti-woke campaigns

535
00:19:44.750 --> 00:19:46.749
and corporate efficiency, and

536
00:19:46.750 --> 00:19:47.959
then it's in an attempt to

537
00:19:47.960 --> 00:19:49.909
undermine, endanger, and

538
00:19:49.910 --> 00:19:52.249
basically push marginalized

539
00:19:52.250 --> 00:19:53.960
communities out of public life.

540
00:19:55.070 --> 00:19:56.809
And I hate to admit that pretty soon

541
00:19:56.810 --> 00:19:59.059
we may need to add that settler

542
00:19:59.060 --> 00:20:01.579
colonialism, quote unquote ideology

543
00:20:01.580 --> 00:20:03.739
as this on top of this list

544
00:20:03.740 --> 00:20:04.999
of restricted speech.

545
00:20:06.740 --> 00:20:08.869
And as educators,

546
00:20:08.870 --> 00:20:10.849
how are we not alarmed

547
00:20:10.850 --> 00:20:13.129
by the fact that these terms

548
00:20:13.130 --> 00:20:15.049
are being suppressed?

549
00:20:15.050 --> 00:20:17.119
So how can we teach

550
00:20:17.120 --> 00:20:19.219
our students about the future

551
00:20:19.220 --> 00:20:21.019
if they don't have the lexicon or

552
00:20:21.020 --> 00:20:22.219
language to imagine?

553
00:20:22.220 --> 00:20:24.319
Alternatives for the banning

554
00:20:24.320 --> 00:20:26.149
of words will prevent

555
00:20:26.150 --> 00:20:28.489
the imagination of different worlds.

556
00:20:29.510 --> 00:20:31.459
So the answer I propose is

557
00:20:31.460 --> 00:20:33.409
always in education.

558
00:20:33.410 --> 00:20:35.359
I hope what we can do going

559
00:20:35.360 --> 00:20:36.919
forward is to refocus our

560
00:20:36.920 --> 00:20:38.959
commitments and fine tune

561
00:20:38.960 --> 00:20:41.089
our assumptions of what education

562
00:20:41.090 --> 00:20:42.049
should be.

563
00:20:42.050 --> 00:20:43.909
So what I'll do is I'll briefly

564
00:20:43.910 --> 00:20:46.219
introduce a framework by

565
00:20:46.220 --> 00:20:48.769
education scholar Vanessa Andreotti,

566
00:20:48.770 --> 00:20:50.449
who talks about the difference

567
00:20:50.450 --> 00:20:52.849
between a feel good education

568
00:20:52.850 --> 00:20:54.799
versus an education of depth.

569
00:20:54.800 --> 00:20:56.299
And I got five minutes to do all of

570
00:20:56.300 --> 00:20:57.300
this.

571
00:20:58.250 --> 00:21:00.169
So I'm not even going

572
00:21:00.170 --> 00:21:01.129
to look at my script.

573
00:21:01.130 --> 00:21:03.259
So the this text

574
00:21:03.260 --> 00:21:05.569
originally was published in 2012

575
00:21:05.570 --> 00:21:07.489
and it inaugurated

576
00:21:07.490 --> 00:21:09.469
a, a whole

577
00:21:09.470 --> 00:21:11.809
publication around indigenization.

578
00:21:11.810 --> 00:21:14.569
And it was actually an intervention

579
00:21:14.570 --> 00:21:15.949
to occupy.

580
00:21:15.950 --> 00:21:18.379
Right. Occupy was in 2011.

581
00:21:18.380 --> 00:21:20.479
The audience for this, this text

582
00:21:20.480 --> 00:21:22.699
was probably

583
00:21:22.700 --> 00:21:23.700
me.

584
00:21:25.180 --> 00:21:27.069
People of color trying

585
00:21:27.070 --> 00:21:29.079
to coalesce around

586
00:21:29.080 --> 00:21:30.939
social justice while

587
00:21:30.940 --> 00:21:33.309
mis recognizing or perhaps

588
00:21:34.810 --> 00:21:37.389
invisible izing the needs

589
00:21:37.390 --> 00:21:39.219
of of tending to

590
00:21:39.220 --> 00:21:40.719
settler colonialism.

591
00:21:40.720 --> 00:21:42.279
So the first part of the text has

592
00:21:42.280 --> 00:21:44.229
this amazing definition of settler

593
00:21:44.230 --> 00:21:45.849
colonialism that kind of

594
00:21:45.850 --> 00:21:48.069
differentiates and hybridized, and

595
00:21:48.070 --> 00:21:49.869
speculates that settler colonialism

596
00:21:49.870 --> 00:21:51.759
is, in fact a fusion of

597
00:21:51.760 --> 00:21:53.709
internal colonialism and external

598
00:21:53.710 --> 00:21:54.789
colonialism.

599
00:21:54.790 --> 00:21:56.499
But then the middle chunk of the

600
00:21:56.500 --> 00:21:58.839
text attempts to define,

601
00:21:58.840 --> 00:22:00.699
quote unquote settlers

602
00:22:00.700 --> 00:22:02.469
settler moves to innocence.

603
00:22:02.470 --> 00:22:04.869
Lose the innocence was a term

604
00:22:04.870 --> 00:22:07.719
originated by a sociologist

605
00:22:07.720 --> 00:22:09.639
who wanted to really understand why

606
00:22:09.640 --> 00:22:11.499
white people weren't

607
00:22:11.500 --> 00:22:13.329
fully participating in

608
00:22:13.330 --> 00:22:15.009
anti-racism circles.

609
00:22:15.010 --> 00:22:17.109
Right. Whiteness tends

610
00:22:17.110 --> 00:22:19.929
to sort of hide.

611
00:22:19.930 --> 00:22:21.819
Whiteness tends to.

612
00:22:25.210 --> 00:22:26.559
Hide in innocence.

613
00:22:26.560 --> 00:22:28.359
So what? Tuck and Yang wanted to do

614
00:22:28.360 --> 00:22:30.189
was inventory the

615
00:22:30.190 --> 00:22:32.529
seven kind of typologies

616
00:22:32.530 --> 00:22:33.970
of where the settler

617
00:22:35.110 --> 00:22:37.359
is hiding in innocence.

618
00:22:37.360 --> 00:22:38.649
So the first one is settler

619
00:22:38.650 --> 00:22:40.059
nativism, which

620
00:22:41.500 --> 00:22:44.319
is a move to

621
00:22:44.320 --> 00:22:45.320
perhaps.

622
00:22:47.740 --> 00:22:50.049
Fantasize a type of ancestral

623
00:22:50.050 --> 00:22:51.519
origin.

624
00:22:51.520 --> 00:22:53.169
The text talks about vine.

625
00:22:53.170 --> 00:22:55.029
Dolores is Indian

626
00:22:55.030 --> 00:22:57.579
grandmother syndrome, where

627
00:22:57.580 --> 00:22:59.499
many, many settlers claim that

628
00:22:59.500 --> 00:23:01.509
their great great great grandmother

629
00:23:01.510 --> 00:23:03.639
is a descendant of

630
00:23:03.640 --> 00:23:04.599
native tribes.

631
00:23:04.600 --> 00:23:07.419
So how that how is that adoption?

632
00:23:07.420 --> 00:23:08.709
How does that adoption actually

633
00:23:08.710 --> 00:23:10.749
reinforce a type of

634
00:23:10.750 --> 00:23:12.159
colonialism?

635
00:23:12.160 --> 00:23:14.289
Fantasizing. Adoption is an attempt

636
00:23:14.290 --> 00:23:15.339
to sort of.

637
00:23:16.810 --> 00:23:18.999
It's where the settler dreams

638
00:23:19.000 --> 00:23:20.829
that they are both the adoptee and

639
00:23:20.830 --> 00:23:23.289
adopter of indigenous communities.

640
00:23:23.290 --> 00:23:25.419
Colonial equivocation

641
00:23:25.420 --> 00:23:26.979
is an argument that we're all

642
00:23:26.980 --> 00:23:29.049
colonized, you know.

643
00:23:29.050 --> 00:23:30.819
So the problem with that sort of

644
00:23:30.820 --> 00:23:32.469
assertion is that, again, it kind of

645
00:23:32.470 --> 00:23:34.569
erases the damage

646
00:23:34.570 --> 00:23:36.339
of settler colonialism by arguing

647
00:23:36.340 --> 00:23:37.389
that there's a certain kind of

648
00:23:37.390 --> 00:23:39.279
flatness of of

649
00:23:39.280 --> 00:23:41.379
of all of us being colonized.

650
00:23:41.380 --> 00:23:43.419
Conscience conscientious ation

651
00:23:43.420 --> 00:23:45.669
is an attempt to sort of

652
00:23:45.670 --> 00:23:47.649
argue that one can free your

653
00:23:47.650 --> 00:23:49.569
mind out of settler colonialism by

654
00:23:49.570 --> 00:23:51.729
reading up, but in reality

655
00:23:51.730 --> 00:23:53.979
that actually, again disappears

656
00:23:53.980 --> 00:23:55.989
the violence of that and at risk

657
00:23:55.990 --> 00:23:58.509
an asterisk in indigenous peoples

658
00:23:58.510 --> 00:24:00.339
is perhaps a bad habit.

659
00:24:00.340 --> 00:24:02.169
The art world suffers from this too,

660
00:24:02.170 --> 00:24:03.170
that that

661
00:24:04.540 --> 00:24:06.429
brackets indigenous cultures

662
00:24:06.430 --> 00:24:08.199
and peoples. And perhaps.

663
00:24:10.390 --> 00:24:12.129
It's a form of inclusion that's also

664
00:24:12.130 --> 00:24:14.530
a form of enclosure.

665
00:24:15.730 --> 00:24:17.949
So moving ahead,

666
00:24:17.950 --> 00:24:20.339
what I want to argue is

667
00:24:20.340 --> 00:24:22.289
certainly it's

668
00:24:22.290 --> 00:24:24.959
crucial that we start to unpack

669
00:24:24.960 --> 00:24:27.509
the damage and unpack our agency

670
00:24:27.510 --> 00:24:29.489
in order to promote

671
00:24:29.490 --> 00:24:31.619
indigenous lifeways, indigenous

672
00:24:31.620 --> 00:24:32.519
sovereignty.

673
00:24:32.520 --> 00:24:33.899
But I think it's really easy to

674
00:24:33.900 --> 00:24:35.999
recognize that decolonization,

675
00:24:36.000 --> 00:24:38.059
neo colonial, neo colonization,

676
00:24:38.060 --> 00:24:40.109
in fact, a form of imperial ization

677
00:24:40.110 --> 00:24:42.209
is happening.

678
00:24:42.210 --> 00:24:44.249
There's multiple poly crises

679
00:24:44.250 --> 00:24:46.859
in which one can detect today.

680
00:24:46.860 --> 00:24:48.779
So if this text

681
00:24:48.780 --> 00:24:50.789
was written in 2012, what

682
00:24:50.790 --> 00:24:52.709
might be not even

683
00:24:52.710 --> 00:24:54.629
settler moves to innocence, but

684
00:24:54.630 --> 00:24:57.059
perhaps settler claims

685
00:24:57.060 --> 00:24:59.009
of of acquisition.

686
00:24:59.010 --> 00:25:00.749
And I would argue that perhaps we're

687
00:25:00.750 --> 00:25:02.819
in a moment where

688
00:25:02.820 --> 00:25:05.429
there is manufactured amnesia.

689
00:25:05.430 --> 00:25:07.109
There is, in fact, what Henry Giraud

690
00:25:07.110 --> 00:25:08.369
said. There's a violence of

691
00:25:08.370 --> 00:25:10.049
organized forgetting where we cannot

692
00:25:10.050 --> 00:25:11.999
identify our roots.

693
00:25:12.000 --> 00:25:14.519
I'm predicting that

694
00:25:14.520 --> 00:25:16.349
we will have

695
00:25:16.350 --> 00:25:18.929
perpetual forms of the evacuation

696
00:25:18.930 --> 00:25:20.459
of the communal.

697
00:25:20.460 --> 00:25:22.589
And I'm also predicting that what

698
00:25:22.590 --> 00:25:24.569
one considers art

699
00:25:24.570 --> 00:25:25.649
will will have,

700
00:25:27.510 --> 00:25:29.039
will be delimited.

701
00:25:29.040 --> 00:25:30.989
So what

702
00:25:30.990 --> 00:25:32.670
I propose is

703
00:25:33.750 --> 00:25:35.399
we need to move from a place of

704
00:25:35.400 --> 00:25:37.319
positive education or a feel good

705
00:25:37.320 --> 00:25:39.239
education to a place of

706
00:25:39.240 --> 00:25:40.240
depth.

707
00:25:43.170 --> 00:25:43.979
Deep art.

708
00:25:43.980 --> 00:25:45.090
Can I get 30s?

709
00:25:46.110 --> 00:25:47.110
No.

710
00:25:47.790 --> 00:25:50.339
Please please please please.

711
00:25:50.340 --> 00:25:52.619
So this is from

712
00:25:52.620 --> 00:25:55.019
education scholar Vanessa Andreotti,

713
00:25:55.020 --> 00:25:56.969
who argues that we juxtaposes

714
00:25:56.970 --> 00:25:59.369
these two forms of education.

715
00:25:59.370 --> 00:26:01.079
Positive education is feel good

716
00:26:01.080 --> 00:26:01.979
education.

717
00:26:01.980 --> 00:26:03.839
It's a way to remain innocent.

718
00:26:03.840 --> 00:26:05.579
It's a way to sort of not hold

719
00:26:05.580 --> 00:26:07.199
institutions accountable.

720
00:26:07.200 --> 00:26:09.089
Depth education is neither

721
00:26:09.090 --> 00:26:10.919
banking nor nor learner

722
00:26:10.920 --> 00:26:11.759
centered.

723
00:26:11.760 --> 00:26:13.889
Depth education is like an onion.

724
00:26:13.890 --> 00:26:15.839
The deeper, the deeper you cut,

725
00:26:15.840 --> 00:26:17.279
the more you cry.

726
00:26:17.280 --> 00:26:18.989
Depth. Education develops

727
00:26:18.990 --> 00:26:21.689
capacities, dispositions, stamina

728
00:26:21.690 --> 00:26:23.699
to hold space for difficult, painful

729
00:26:23.700 --> 00:26:25.289
engagements.

730
00:26:25.290 --> 00:26:27.299
Depth education is not feel good

731
00:26:27.300 --> 00:26:29.459
or positive education, because

732
00:26:29.460 --> 00:26:31.169
feel good and positive education

733
00:26:31.170 --> 00:26:33.179
operates from a within

734
00:26:33.180 --> 00:26:34.769
a form of denial.

735
00:26:34.770 --> 00:26:36.749
Depth education does not

736
00:26:36.750 --> 00:26:38.669
look at simplistic solutions that

737
00:26:38.670 --> 00:26:40.649
make us look and feel good, but

738
00:26:40.650 --> 00:26:43.169
it forces us to look at the symptom,

739
00:26:43.170 --> 00:26:45.059
forces us to look at the roots of

740
00:26:45.060 --> 00:26:46.289
our collective predicaments.

741
00:26:47.310 --> 00:26:48.310
So I'll end there.

742
00:26:59.260 --> 00:27:01.009
And I think you have.

743
00:27:03.600 --> 00:27:04.600
The green light.

744
00:27:08.370 --> 00:27:09.370
For you.

745
00:27:10.950 --> 00:27:11.950
Hello.

746
00:27:13.110 --> 00:27:14.929
It's my pleasure to be here

747
00:27:14.930 --> 00:27:17.089
and share my

748
00:27:18.140 --> 00:27:19.189
perspective.

749
00:27:19.190 --> 00:27:21.319
I thought the way that I'll

750
00:27:21.320 --> 00:27:23.119
sort of talk about this is through

751
00:27:23.120 --> 00:27:25.219
my own personal experiences.

752
00:27:25.220 --> 00:27:27.199
And what you're seeing

753
00:27:27.200 --> 00:27:29.299
up here is cereal box

754
00:27:29.300 --> 00:27:30.559
from 1984.

755
00:27:31.700 --> 00:27:33.709
Kellogg's, Fernando Valenzuela

756
00:27:34.880 --> 00:27:36.649
I don't know how I first saw this.

757
00:27:36.650 --> 00:27:38.569
I think it was someone posted

758
00:27:38.570 --> 00:27:39.859
it and I said, like, I got to have

759
00:27:39.860 --> 00:27:41.809
that box because it

760
00:27:41.810 --> 00:27:43.669
just reminded me of

761
00:27:43.670 --> 00:27:46.099
growing up in the 80s and seeing

762
00:27:46.100 --> 00:27:47.869
Fernando Valenzuela, a person who

763
00:27:47.870 --> 00:27:49.759
looked like me beyond,

764
00:27:49.760 --> 00:27:51.409
you know, a cereal box.

765
00:27:51.410 --> 00:27:52.410
And that was

766
00:27:53.450 --> 00:27:55.309
very it was

767
00:27:55.310 --> 00:27:57.319
an important moment for me because I

768
00:27:57.320 --> 00:27:58.729
was like, wow, if that person could

769
00:27:58.730 --> 00:28:00.319
do it in their field, which is

770
00:28:00.320 --> 00:28:01.969
difficult, the sports, it's like,

771
00:28:01.970 --> 00:28:03.859
wow, why can't I do it

772
00:28:03.860 --> 00:28:06.019
as an artist as well?

773
00:28:06.020 --> 00:28:07.969
And what I ended up doing

774
00:28:07.970 --> 00:28:09.979
is taking this cereal box

775
00:28:09.980 --> 00:28:11.809
to my

776
00:28:11.810 --> 00:28:13.699
office Face at at

777
00:28:13.700 --> 00:28:14.599
at the university.

778
00:28:14.600 --> 00:28:15.619
And I kept it up there.

779
00:28:15.620 --> 00:28:17.449
And so my idea was

780
00:28:17.450 --> 00:28:19.729
like, maybe students will see

781
00:28:19.730 --> 00:28:21.739
that I find this important, like

782
00:28:21.740 --> 00:28:23.569
for them to relate.

783
00:28:23.570 --> 00:28:24.740
And also.

784
00:28:26.780 --> 00:28:28.249
You know, one of the things that I

785
00:28:28.250 --> 00:28:29.629
ended up finding out, some of my

786
00:28:29.630 --> 00:28:31.219
students would say, you know, the

787
00:28:31.220 --> 00:28:33.259
reason I came to this university

788
00:28:33.260 --> 00:28:35.089
was because they did a

789
00:28:35.090 --> 00:28:36.949
video on you,

790
00:28:36.950 --> 00:28:39.139
and I saw

791
00:28:39.140 --> 00:28:40.939
someone running a program that

792
00:28:40.940 --> 00:28:42.529
looked like me. And I thought, okay,

793
00:28:42.530 --> 00:28:44.659
this school might be different.

794
00:28:44.660 --> 00:28:45.619
Okay.

795
00:28:45.620 --> 00:28:46.459
Excuse me.

796
00:28:46.460 --> 00:28:48.529
So I ran

797
00:28:48.530 --> 00:28:50.149
into a lot of things like that.

798
00:28:50.150 --> 00:28:51.979
I mean, you already know what,

799
00:28:51.980 --> 00:28:53.779
where I went to undergrad, but when

800
00:28:53.780 --> 00:28:55.939
I was in undergrad, when I went,

801
00:28:57.020 --> 00:28:58.909
I was dealing with work that

802
00:28:58.910 --> 00:29:00.619
dealt with identity, and I didn't

803
00:29:00.620 --> 00:29:02.420
feel like it was welcomed.

804
00:29:03.710 --> 00:29:05.779
It was they were like, well,

805
00:29:05.780 --> 00:29:07.969
you know, the 90s, they had identity

806
00:29:07.970 --> 00:29:08.809
politics.

807
00:29:08.810 --> 00:29:10.759
So maybe, you know,

808
00:29:10.760 --> 00:29:12.409
So how are we going to, you know,

809
00:29:12.410 --> 00:29:13.729
bring something new?

810
00:29:13.730 --> 00:29:16.189
And I'm like, well,

811
00:29:16.190 --> 00:29:18.019
you know, it's not fashion for

812
00:29:18.020 --> 00:29:19.129
me.

813
00:29:19.130 --> 00:29:20.989
What I do is just

814
00:29:20.990 --> 00:29:22.639
it's part of my story.

815
00:29:22.640 --> 00:29:24.469
You know, this is this is why

816
00:29:24.470 --> 00:29:26.779
I do the art that I do.

817
00:29:26.780 --> 00:29:27.780
And so

818
00:29:29.480 --> 00:29:31.549
at when the,

819
00:29:31.550 --> 00:29:33.739
you know, when I finish,

820
00:29:33.740 --> 00:29:35.569
the director of my program said,

821
00:29:35.570 --> 00:29:36.829
you know, I'm glad you kind of

822
00:29:36.830 --> 00:29:38.959
Faddis and because

823
00:29:38.960 --> 00:29:40.549
you develop something that still

824
00:29:40.550 --> 00:29:43.039
deals with identity and of course

825
00:29:43.040 --> 00:29:44.989
incorporated all these conceptual

826
00:29:44.990 --> 00:29:47.059
sort of like strategies,

827
00:29:47.060 --> 00:29:48.979
right. But I was coming from

828
00:29:50.210 --> 00:29:52.249
looking at Chicano artist, Chicano,

829
00:29:52.250 --> 00:29:53.749
Chicano artists looking at

830
00:29:53.750 --> 00:29:55.639
collectives like Asco and

831
00:29:55.640 --> 00:29:56.929
Los four.

832
00:29:56.930 --> 00:29:59.029
And I was really

833
00:29:59.030 --> 00:30:00.799
influenced by that work.

834
00:30:00.800 --> 00:30:02.689
And I just felt like

835
00:30:02.690 --> 00:30:04.849
I didn't have that support.

836
00:30:04.850 --> 00:30:07.099
And then the other thing that I also

837
00:30:07.100 --> 00:30:08.989
ran across is my professors

838
00:30:08.990 --> 00:30:10.959
were showing me images of work.

839
00:30:10.960 --> 00:30:12.639
And, you know, I was coming from,

840
00:30:12.640 --> 00:30:14.199
you know, from PCC and all that

841
00:30:14.200 --> 00:30:16.149
stuff. And so I would be like, hey,

842
00:30:16.150 --> 00:30:18.489
why why don't you show any

843
00:30:18.490 --> 00:30:20.409
more women or people

844
00:30:20.410 --> 00:30:21.549
of color in your slides?

845
00:30:21.550 --> 00:30:22.779
Or what are you talking about?

846
00:30:22.780 --> 00:30:24.729
Yeah, we do say, well, here's

847
00:30:24.730 --> 00:30:25.509
your list.

848
00:30:25.510 --> 00:30:26.739
I don't see anything in there.

849
00:30:26.740 --> 00:30:28.869
Right. So those are the

850
00:30:28.870 --> 00:30:30.249
things that I was finding,

851
00:30:31.360 --> 00:30:32.739
you know, issues when I was in

852
00:30:32.740 --> 00:30:33.669
school.

853
00:30:33.670 --> 00:30:35.889
And as an artist, I

854
00:30:35.890 --> 00:30:37.899
was really interested in talking

855
00:30:37.900 --> 00:30:40.449
about these things within my work.

856
00:30:40.450 --> 00:30:41.679
What you're seeing here is that one

857
00:30:41.680 --> 00:30:43.449
of my pieces, it's a sculpture.

858
00:30:43.450 --> 00:30:46.059
It's called dance of the conquest.

859
00:30:46.060 --> 00:30:48.579
And in the,

860
00:30:48.580 --> 00:30:50.409
in the in, you'll see

861
00:30:50.410 --> 00:30:52.059
a mask. And that mask is

862
00:30:53.200 --> 00:30:55.209
I cut two dance masks.

863
00:30:55.210 --> 00:30:57.129
From what the Mala.

864
00:30:57.130 --> 00:30:59.199
One is Pedro de Alvarado,

865
00:30:59.200 --> 00:31:01.179
and the other one is Dacono

866
00:31:01.180 --> 00:31:03.579
man. Alvarado was a conquistador

867
00:31:03.580 --> 00:31:05.200
and Dacono man is

868
00:31:06.610 --> 00:31:08.739
a Mayan warrior.

869
00:31:08.740 --> 00:31:09.939
And these are my histories.

870
00:31:09.940 --> 00:31:12.369
You know, in my mom's side.

871
00:31:12.370 --> 00:31:14.559
My grandparents speak my dialect.

872
00:31:14.560 --> 00:31:16.749
And then in my father's side,

873
00:31:16.750 --> 00:31:18.909
my great grandfather

874
00:31:18.910 --> 00:31:19.719
came from Spain.

875
00:31:19.720 --> 00:31:20.739
So.

876
00:31:20.740 --> 00:31:22.689
And in the back you have the

877
00:31:22.690 --> 00:31:24.579
the flower of Los Angeles, which is

878
00:31:24.580 --> 00:31:26.439
the the bird of

879
00:31:26.440 --> 00:31:27.309
Paradise.

880
00:31:27.310 --> 00:31:29.079
And the moral is

881
00:31:30.100 --> 00:31:32.079
I, you know, it's like a bag

882
00:31:32.080 --> 00:31:33.789
that many farm workers comp casinos

883
00:31:33.790 --> 00:31:35.589
use for crops or just to carry

884
00:31:35.590 --> 00:31:36.369
things.

885
00:31:36.370 --> 00:31:38.229
So for me, this symbolizes this

886
00:31:38.230 --> 00:31:39.230
sort of like.

887
00:31:41.500 --> 00:31:43.419
You know, colonialization

888
00:31:43.420 --> 00:31:45.729
and also like migration

889
00:31:45.730 --> 00:31:48.429
that I find very interesting

890
00:31:48.430 --> 00:31:49.239
and important.

891
00:31:49.240 --> 00:31:50.379
And these are the things that I

892
00:31:50.380 --> 00:31:51.879
wanted to talk about.

893
00:31:51.880 --> 00:31:53.889
And so when it comes to art

894
00:31:53.890 --> 00:31:55.809
education, I think it's

895
00:31:55.810 --> 00:31:57.669
very important to to look for

896
00:31:57.670 --> 00:31:58.689
these narratives. Right.

897
00:31:58.690 --> 00:32:00.429
So you have like drawing classes,

898
00:32:00.430 --> 00:32:02.259
you have sculpture classes.

899
00:32:02.260 --> 00:32:04.509
And I constantly

900
00:32:04.510 --> 00:32:07.509
look for ways to incorporate

901
00:32:07.510 --> 00:32:08.949
different narratives within the

902
00:32:08.950 --> 00:32:10.179
work.

903
00:32:10.180 --> 00:32:12.039
And as a director of a

904
00:32:12.040 --> 00:32:13.869
program, it's like I look over the

905
00:32:13.870 --> 00:32:15.519
syllabi and see, like what's being

906
00:32:15.520 --> 00:32:17.859
taught to just make sure that

907
00:32:17.860 --> 00:32:19.779
that, that the curriculum

908
00:32:19.780 --> 00:32:21.399
is diverse.

909
00:32:21.400 --> 00:32:22.629
I don't know if you guys have heard

910
00:32:22.630 --> 00:32:24.909
of this book, Art,

911
00:32:24.910 --> 00:32:27.189
Art in theory, 1900 to 2000.

912
00:32:27.190 --> 00:32:28.389
They teach it in almost every

913
00:32:28.390 --> 00:32:29.319
school, right?

914
00:32:29.320 --> 00:32:31.479
So I looked it over, and

915
00:32:31.480 --> 00:32:33.459
one of the things that I saw

916
00:32:33.460 --> 00:32:35.469
is like, you know, you have

917
00:32:35.470 --> 00:32:36.470
the,

918
00:32:37.450 --> 00:32:39.399
you know, Walter Benjamin, you

919
00:32:39.400 --> 00:32:41.229
know, you know,

920
00:32:41.230 --> 00:32:42.579
of course, Sigmund Freud, some of

921
00:32:42.580 --> 00:32:43.569
those essays.

922
00:32:43.570 --> 00:32:45.279
And I was like, I was looking back

923
00:32:45.280 --> 00:32:46.659
at everything that was highlighted

924
00:32:46.660 --> 00:32:47.609
that I was supposed to read.

925
00:32:47.610 --> 00:32:49.569
And I was like, there's

926
00:32:49.570 --> 00:32:51.069
like so much in here, right?

927
00:32:51.070 --> 00:32:52.119
So what?

928
00:32:52.120 --> 00:32:53.499
Just to give you an example, what I

929
00:32:53.500 --> 00:32:55.359
would do, it's like there's a

930
00:32:55.360 --> 00:32:57.399
there's a interview with Adam

931
00:32:57.400 --> 00:32:59.259
and there's

932
00:32:59.260 --> 00:33:01.179
David, David, Rafael Siqueiros wrote

933
00:33:01.180 --> 00:33:02.530
an essay, Diego Rivera.

934
00:33:03.640 --> 00:33:06.149
And then at the very beginning,

935
00:33:06.150 --> 00:33:08.159
there's an essay by Carl

936
00:33:08.160 --> 00:33:09.109
Einstein.

937
00:33:09.110 --> 00:33:10.919
It's called Negro sculpture.

938
00:33:10.920 --> 00:33:12.269
He was referring to African

939
00:33:12.270 --> 00:33:13.619
sculpture. But I find it really

940
00:33:13.620 --> 00:33:15.719
interesting because in that essay

941
00:33:15.720 --> 00:33:17.430
he's talking about how

942
00:33:19.350 --> 00:33:21.329
how the sculpture is seen like

943
00:33:21.330 --> 00:33:23.909
lacking sort of like,

944
00:33:23.910 --> 00:33:25.949
like skill, so on and so forth.

945
00:33:25.950 --> 00:33:28.019
But it's seen through this, this

946
00:33:28.020 --> 00:33:29.399
Eurocentric lens.

947
00:33:29.400 --> 00:33:31.229
Right. And what he was, he's

948
00:33:31.230 --> 00:33:33.089
arguing in that essay is

949
00:33:33.090 --> 00:33:35.009
like, there's a spiritual

950
00:33:35.010 --> 00:33:36.869
connection. These objects have

951
00:33:36.870 --> 00:33:39.179
this spiritual connection, right?

952
00:33:39.180 --> 00:33:41.129
That many people don't take into

953
00:33:41.130 --> 00:33:42.779
consideration when they're looking

954
00:33:42.780 --> 00:33:43.799
at that type of work.

955
00:33:44.910 --> 00:33:47.309
So for me,

956
00:33:47.310 --> 00:33:49.469
being taking that active approach

957
00:33:49.470 --> 00:33:51.179
in what is being taught in schools,

958
00:33:51.180 --> 00:33:53.039
in the curriculum, I find it

959
00:33:53.040 --> 00:33:54.989
very important. But that's sort

960
00:33:54.990 --> 00:33:56.849
of what I've done and why this

961
00:33:56.850 --> 00:33:58.619
this topic is so important to me,

962
00:33:58.620 --> 00:33:59.789
you know, particularly because of

963
00:33:59.790 --> 00:34:01.469
the things I felt was lacking in my

964
00:34:01.470 --> 00:34:02.609
education.

965
00:34:02.610 --> 00:34:05.039
And, you know,

966
00:34:05.040 --> 00:34:07.319
the other big thing is, like

967
00:34:07.320 --> 00:34:09.319
almost every university,

968
00:34:09.320 --> 00:34:11.259
majority of my students are female.

969
00:34:11.260 --> 00:34:12.658
Majority of my students, it never,

970
00:34:12.659 --> 00:34:14.039
never fails, right.

971
00:34:14.040 --> 00:34:15.869
And so it's important to

972
00:34:15.870 --> 00:34:17.908
have those those, you know, artists

973
00:34:17.909 --> 00:34:19.319
represented in the, in the

974
00:34:19.320 --> 00:34:21.209
curriculum. So it's

975
00:34:21.210 --> 00:34:23.219
a very important topics anyway.

976
00:34:32.850 --> 00:34:33.959
Okay.

977
00:34:33.960 --> 00:34:35.039
Hey there.

978
00:34:35.040 --> 00:34:36.449
Sorry I don't have any slides,

979
00:34:38.400 --> 00:34:39.569
but I'm just going to talk.

980
00:34:39.570 --> 00:34:41.428
I hope I can say

981
00:34:41.429 --> 00:34:42.989
something of interest.

982
00:34:44.429 --> 00:34:46.259
I really kind of like,

983
00:34:46.260 --> 00:34:47.729
was sticking on what you were saying

984
00:34:47.730 --> 00:34:50.579
about whiteness hides.

985
00:34:50.580 --> 00:34:52.468
As part of this thing

986
00:34:52.469 --> 00:34:53.249
that we're going through.

987
00:34:53.250 --> 00:34:55.439
And the violence of

988
00:34:55.440 --> 00:34:57.329
forgetting is that I was.

989
00:34:57.330 --> 00:34:58.769
Describe the violence of forgetting.

990
00:35:00.240 --> 00:35:01.320
It made me think of this.

991
00:35:02.400 --> 00:35:03.989
Thing that I did in

992
00:35:05.010 --> 00:35:06.959
in teaching a few years ago, back

993
00:35:06.960 --> 00:35:07.960
in 2020.

994
00:35:09.690 --> 00:35:12.089
I was sort of tired of all of

995
00:35:12.090 --> 00:35:13.979
the students of color

996
00:35:13.980 --> 00:35:15.749
writing their artists statements and

997
00:35:15.750 --> 00:35:18.629
having to explain their identity.

998
00:35:18.630 --> 00:35:20.549
And so I kind of said, I, like

999
00:35:20.550 --> 00:35:21.869
I said it in class and then I like,

1000
00:35:21.870 --> 00:35:23.009
just said it on the internet.

1001
00:35:23.010 --> 00:35:24.869
I was like, okay,

1002
00:35:24.870 --> 00:35:26.549
just stop. Just like withdraw.

1003
00:35:26.550 --> 00:35:28.289
Just like, don't do that work

1004
00:35:28.290 --> 00:35:29.849
anymore. And then I said, okay, all

1005
00:35:29.850 --> 00:35:31.709
white students, you have to

1006
00:35:31.710 --> 00:35:32.879
put whiteness in your artist's

1007
00:35:32.880 --> 00:35:34.469
statement. I'm not going to tell you

1008
00:35:34.470 --> 00:35:36.449
what to do with it.

1009
00:35:36.450 --> 00:35:38.459
But you have to you

1010
00:35:38.460 --> 00:35:40.169
have to contend with it, because I

1011
00:35:40.170 --> 00:35:42.089
think this is part of the thing of

1012
00:35:42.090 --> 00:35:43.090
just like

1013
00:35:44.100 --> 00:35:45.689
the colonization is like it's just

1014
00:35:45.690 --> 00:35:47.909
normalizing, just like,

1015
00:35:47.910 --> 00:35:49.469
okay, it was it's just so

1016
00:35:49.470 --> 00:35:50.969
frustrating. And we've all had to do

1017
00:35:50.970 --> 00:35:52.949
this, whether it's race, gender,

1018
00:35:52.950 --> 00:35:55.019
sexuality, migration,

1019
00:35:55.020 --> 00:35:57.299
all these things. And it was the

1020
00:35:57.300 --> 00:35:59.189
people cannot handle it.

1021
00:35:59.190 --> 00:36:00.709
It's like I'm tempted to do this

1022
00:36:00.710 --> 00:36:01.579
right now when I go back.

1023
00:36:01.580 --> 00:36:02.839
I'm on sabbatical right now, so I'm

1024
00:36:02.840 --> 00:36:03.979
not having to deal with this, but

1025
00:36:03.980 --> 00:36:05.059
I'm really thinking about it in the

1026
00:36:05.060 --> 00:36:06.060
fall.

1027
00:36:06.530 --> 00:36:08.029
So yeah, that's something that's

1028
00:36:08.030 --> 00:36:09.050
really on my mind.

1029
00:36:10.550 --> 00:36:12.229
But also I think as part of

1030
00:36:12.230 --> 00:36:14.539
teaching, it's like I'm

1031
00:36:14.540 --> 00:36:16.309
kind of constantly learning from

1032
00:36:16.310 --> 00:36:18.409
students because I'm

1033
00:36:18.410 --> 00:36:21.049
not someone who came into teaching

1034
00:36:21.050 --> 00:36:23.659
from like a theoretical background,

1035
00:36:23.660 --> 00:36:26.119
like really in-depth with pedagogy

1036
00:36:26.120 --> 00:36:26.989
and things like that.

1037
00:36:26.990 --> 00:36:28.699
It is a job that I do.

1038
00:36:28.700 --> 00:36:29.869
It's one that I enjoy being in

1039
00:36:29.870 --> 00:36:30.870
conversation, but

1040
00:36:32.690 --> 00:36:34.729
so I so

1041
00:36:34.730 --> 00:36:37.459
for me, being a teacher,

1042
00:36:37.460 --> 00:36:39.379
being at UCSD, I

1043
00:36:39.380 --> 00:36:41.149
was at Cal Arts before and Bard is

1044
00:36:41.150 --> 00:36:43.099
where I it's probably where I was

1045
00:36:43.100 --> 00:36:44.779
introduced to a lot of these, a lot

1046
00:36:44.780 --> 00:36:45.780
of these concerns.

1047
00:36:47.600 --> 00:36:49.549
And so something that I think about

1048
00:36:49.550 --> 00:36:51.499
also with, with my work

1049
00:36:51.500 --> 00:36:53.089
and also teaching is this idea of

1050
00:36:53.090 --> 00:36:54.919
like infiltration,

1051
00:36:54.920 --> 00:36:56.839
where it's kind of like,

1052
00:36:56.840 --> 00:36:58.009
you know, I'm dealing with

1053
00:36:58.010 --> 00:36:59.899
photography and it's, you know,

1054
00:36:59.900 --> 00:37:01.489
kind of medium.

1055
00:37:01.490 --> 00:37:03.409
It's medium specificity.

1056
00:37:03.410 --> 00:37:04.909
And, you know, it's burdened with

1057
00:37:04.910 --> 00:37:05.989
representation.

1058
00:37:05.990 --> 00:37:07.579
And the first thing is like, okay,

1059
00:37:07.580 --> 00:37:09.079
you have to make an image that then

1060
00:37:09.080 --> 00:37:11.839
describes like your, your

1061
00:37:11.840 --> 00:37:13.669
identity or social conditions.

1062
00:37:13.670 --> 00:37:14.569
And it's like, well, there's all

1063
00:37:14.570 --> 00:37:15.979
these other things that are into it.

1064
00:37:15.980 --> 00:37:18.079
So how can we navigate

1065
00:37:18.080 --> 00:37:19.369
in that space is something that I'm

1066
00:37:19.370 --> 00:37:21.469
always trying to to, to figure

1067
00:37:21.470 --> 00:37:22.470
out.

1068
00:37:22.760 --> 00:37:24.589
But one thing I was talking about

1069
00:37:24.590 --> 00:37:26.869
when we all met on like a zoom

1070
00:37:26.870 --> 00:37:28.489
about this was kind of examples that

1071
00:37:28.490 --> 00:37:29.599
we use in teaching.

1072
00:37:30.740 --> 00:37:32.569
So this is particularly like

1073
00:37:32.570 --> 00:37:33.499
embarrassing for me to have

1074
00:37:33.500 --> 00:37:35.809
forgotten to submit my slides.

1075
00:37:35.810 --> 00:37:37.729
But so I teach like an intro

1076
00:37:37.730 --> 00:37:39.319
to photo class at UCSD.

1077
00:37:39.320 --> 00:37:41.149
And I was looking at the prior

1078
00:37:42.290 --> 00:37:44.899
curriculums or the syllabi,

1079
00:37:44.900 --> 00:37:46.309
you know, and it's like you have

1080
00:37:46.310 --> 00:37:47.509
like, okay, here's some technical

1081
00:37:47.510 --> 00:37:49.339
stuff. And then like

1082
00:37:49.340 --> 00:37:51.259
week six, it's like, okay, now we're

1083
00:37:51.260 --> 00:37:52.849
going to talk about like women

1084
00:37:52.850 --> 00:37:53.699
photographers.

1085
00:37:53.700 --> 00:37:55.129
Then the next week it's like

1086
00:37:55.130 --> 00:37:56.989
subcultures and queerness, and then

1087
00:37:56.990 --> 00:37:58.589
it's like black people.

1088
00:37:58.590 --> 00:37:59.779
And it's just I was like, this is

1089
00:37:59.780 --> 00:38:00.889
crazy.

1090
00:38:00.890 --> 00:38:02.329
So I stopped.

1091
00:38:02.330 --> 00:38:03.739
I was like, I'm not going to do

1092
00:38:03.740 --> 00:38:05.239
trigger warnings and I'm going to

1093
00:38:05.240 --> 00:38:07.249
show difficult content.

1094
00:38:07.250 --> 00:38:09.069
We're going to look at like the the

1095
00:38:09.070 --> 00:38:11.239
Gary types. We're going to look at,

1096
00:38:11.240 --> 00:38:13.189
you know, but hopefully

1097
00:38:13.190 --> 00:38:15.259
we can get there without having

1098
00:38:15.260 --> 00:38:16.879
to section everyone off.

1099
00:38:16.880 --> 00:38:17.880
So.

1100
00:38:18.350 --> 00:38:20.299
So one example I was thinking about

1101
00:38:20.300 --> 00:38:21.529
is like, you know, you pick up a

1102
00:38:21.530 --> 00:38:23.059
camera and you have to you're having

1103
00:38:23.060 --> 00:38:24.709
to deal with a lens, right?

1104
00:38:24.710 --> 00:38:25.669
You're having to deal with this

1105
00:38:25.670 --> 00:38:27.529
unnatural thing that sort of tries

1106
00:38:27.530 --> 00:38:28.909
to naturalize itself through its

1107
00:38:28.910 --> 00:38:30.679
pictures. And so like the frame is

1108
00:38:30.680 --> 00:38:32.569
an unnatural imposition on the

1109
00:38:32.570 --> 00:38:33.799
world. And I think we can think of

1110
00:38:33.800 --> 00:38:35.299
that as like a metaphor for all this

1111
00:38:35.300 --> 00:38:36.379
colonization stuff we're talking

1112
00:38:36.380 --> 00:38:37.999
about. It's like unnatural things

1113
00:38:38.000 --> 00:38:40.069
that are imposed.

1114
00:38:40.070 --> 00:38:41.749
And so there's an act of framing.

1115
00:38:41.750 --> 00:38:43.759
So it's like when we when

1116
00:38:43.760 --> 00:38:45.739
we're talking about lens and focal

1117
00:38:45.740 --> 00:38:47.479
length, that's like, okay, we can't

1118
00:38:47.480 --> 00:38:49.429
be just sort of passive users of

1119
00:38:49.430 --> 00:38:50.430
this.

1120
00:38:51.050 --> 00:38:53.179
So it's like this is about okay,

1121
00:38:53.180 --> 00:38:54.079
what is.

1122
00:38:54.080 --> 00:38:55.539
This is a choice of what to include

1123
00:38:55.540 --> 00:38:56.589
and by an extension of what to

1124
00:38:56.590 --> 00:38:57.819
exclude, which seems really simple.

1125
00:38:57.820 --> 00:38:59.319
But when you're talking to like

1126
00:38:59.320 --> 00:39:00.549
freshmen, they're often like, oh my

1127
00:39:00.550 --> 00:39:02.679
God, I never thought about that.

1128
00:39:02.680 --> 00:39:04.359
And sometimes I think we forget that

1129
00:39:04.360 --> 00:39:06.309
too. And so, you know,

1130
00:39:06.310 --> 00:39:07.310
and then it's okay. How does

1131
00:39:08.560 --> 00:39:10.360
how does looking at photographs,

1132
00:39:11.500 --> 00:39:12.729
you know, that's an act of aligning

1133
00:39:12.730 --> 00:39:14.559
our vision with that of the camera

1134
00:39:14.560 --> 00:39:15.369
and by extension, of the

1135
00:39:15.370 --> 00:39:16.359
photographer. Right.

1136
00:39:16.360 --> 00:39:17.979
And then that's also a metaphor for

1137
00:39:17.980 --> 00:39:19.869
colonization

1138
00:39:19.870 --> 00:39:20.859
and the frame.

1139
00:39:20.860 --> 00:39:22.359
And that framework itself is

1140
00:39:22.360 --> 00:39:24.039
composed of, you know, cultural and

1141
00:39:24.040 --> 00:39:25.719
historic and institutional and

1142
00:39:25.720 --> 00:39:26.919
subjective information.

1143
00:39:26.920 --> 00:39:28.869
So it's like if you you can

1144
00:39:28.870 --> 00:39:30.729
look at any image and it's and it's

1145
00:39:30.730 --> 00:39:32.649
there. So, you

1146
00:39:32.650 --> 00:39:34.869
know, I also like in the

1147
00:39:34.870 --> 00:39:37.329
shortness of like a quarter

1148
00:39:37.330 --> 00:39:38.109
and you're trying to get through so

1149
00:39:38.110 --> 00:39:39.639
much stuff I can't sort of like give

1150
00:39:39.640 --> 00:39:41.529
all the in-depth readings, you know,

1151
00:39:41.530 --> 00:39:43.089
I can just sort of point to things

1152
00:39:43.090 --> 00:39:44.769
on a, you know, if people want to

1153
00:39:44.770 --> 00:39:46.809
sort of follow up. But I'm hoping

1154
00:39:46.810 --> 00:39:49.329
that by introducing

1155
00:39:49.330 --> 00:39:50.349
so that, that they're not just

1156
00:39:50.350 --> 00:39:52.209
picking up a medium and

1157
00:39:52.210 --> 00:39:53.739
learning about photography.

1158
00:39:53.740 --> 00:39:55.509
And then later on, someone asked to

1159
00:39:55.510 --> 00:39:57.369
come in and be like, let me correct

1160
00:39:57.370 --> 00:39:58.569
you and let's do that.

1161
00:39:58.570 --> 00:40:00.759
Like hopefully when they're

1162
00:40:00.760 --> 00:40:02.739
first adopting it, they

1163
00:40:02.740 --> 00:40:04.569
have some critical tools of it

1164
00:40:04.570 --> 00:40:06.549
so that hopefully they can take that

1165
00:40:06.550 --> 00:40:08.709
amazing seminar with a theorist

1166
00:40:08.710 --> 00:40:11.229
or a, you know, someone who really

1167
00:40:11.230 --> 00:40:12.579
knows us in depth and they can

1168
00:40:12.580 --> 00:40:13.869
connect it to what they're doing

1169
00:40:13.870 --> 00:40:15.519
every day.

1170
00:40:15.520 --> 00:40:17.349
And then like one thing I also

1171
00:40:17.350 --> 00:40:19.629
talk about is, you know, frame

1172
00:40:19.630 --> 00:40:21.099
along with framing is like scale.

1173
00:40:21.100 --> 00:40:23.439
And, you know, like the

1174
00:40:23.440 --> 00:40:25.599
a lot of texts that,

1175
00:40:25.600 --> 00:40:27.459
you know, the developers of Western

1176
00:40:27.460 --> 00:40:28.989
developers of photography are based

1177
00:40:28.990 --> 00:40:30.819
off of is like the The Book of

1178
00:40:30.820 --> 00:40:32.619
Optics, which was written in Egypt.

1179
00:40:32.620 --> 00:40:34.089
And like the middle aid, what we

1180
00:40:34.090 --> 00:40:34.959
call the Middle Ages.

1181
00:40:34.960 --> 00:40:36.489
Like I think it was around 1100.

1182
00:40:36.490 --> 00:40:39.399
Ibn al-Haytham, I believe.

1183
00:40:39.400 --> 00:40:41.319
And, you know, we

1184
00:40:41.320 --> 00:40:43.749
look at then, you know, 1500

1185
00:40:43.750 --> 00:40:45.879
years later, the photographs

1186
00:40:45.880 --> 00:40:49.059
that, like Francis Frith takes,

1187
00:40:49.060 --> 00:40:50.919
you know, the irony about, like the

1188
00:40:50.920 --> 00:40:52.119
Book of Optics, which lays out the

1189
00:40:52.120 --> 00:40:53.679
principles of photography first,

1190
00:40:53.680 --> 00:40:55.659
kind of like really finds its place

1191
00:40:55.660 --> 00:40:57.159
in these photographs that, like the

1192
00:40:57.160 --> 00:40:59.109
British imperial people are

1193
00:40:59.110 --> 00:41:00.489
making in Egypt.

1194
00:41:00.490 --> 00:41:02.499
But then the fact that, like people

1195
00:41:02.500 --> 00:41:04.659
in northern Europe have no concept

1196
00:41:04.660 --> 00:41:06.789
of what they're looking at,

1197
00:41:06.790 --> 00:41:08.649
like photographs don't tell scale

1198
00:41:08.650 --> 00:41:10.119
unless you have a comparison in

1199
00:41:10.120 --> 00:41:11.019
there. So they.

1200
00:41:11.020 --> 00:41:12.610
So he he's like smart to put

1201
00:41:14.410 --> 00:41:16.509
indigenous Egyptians

1202
00:41:16.510 --> 00:41:18.759
in the frame alongside

1203
00:41:18.760 --> 00:41:20.649
for example the Colossus of Memnon

1204
00:41:20.650 --> 00:41:21.579
or these things like that.

1205
00:41:21.580 --> 00:41:23.079
And then later on you'll have like

1206
00:41:23.080 --> 00:41:25.389
British tourists in their Victorian

1207
00:41:25.390 --> 00:41:27.249
dress. But there's these, you

1208
00:41:27.250 --> 00:41:28.689
know, this stuff kind of comes full

1209
00:41:28.690 --> 00:41:30.399
circle.

1210
00:41:30.400 --> 00:41:32.649
And so I think these are

1211
00:41:32.650 --> 00:41:35.109
ways to kind of build in metaphors

1212
00:41:35.110 --> 00:41:36.579
for being able to think about

1213
00:41:36.580 --> 00:41:38.169
decolonization later on, because I

1214
00:41:38.170 --> 00:41:40.149
honestly don't know what that will

1215
00:41:40.150 --> 00:41:41.150
look like.

1216
00:41:42.250 --> 00:41:44.199
But hopefully, you know,

1217
00:41:44.200 --> 00:41:46.269
that somewhere to kind of start.

1218
00:41:46.270 --> 00:41:47.530
But I'll leave it there.

1219
00:41:55.770 --> 00:41:56.770
Okay.

1220
00:41:57.600 --> 00:41:59.039
It's great to be in conversation

1221
00:41:59.040 --> 00:42:00.040
with you all.

1222
00:42:01.430 --> 00:42:03.149
I feel like I have too many things

1223
00:42:03.150 --> 00:42:04.150
to hold on to.

1224
00:42:06.150 --> 00:42:07.150
Yeah.

1225
00:42:07.800 --> 00:42:09.659
So I think what I want to

1226
00:42:09.660 --> 00:42:11.189
talk about today is

1227
00:42:13.050 --> 00:42:15.089
echoing a lot of what everybody

1228
00:42:15.090 --> 00:42:16.289
here has talked about already.

1229
00:42:16.290 --> 00:42:18.569
I believe a lot of resonance

1230
00:42:18.570 --> 00:42:20.429
with the importance of

1231
00:42:20.430 --> 00:42:22.139
representation, the importance of

1232
00:42:23.490 --> 00:42:24.779
pushing back against being

1233
00:42:24.780 --> 00:42:26.399
pigeonholed into certain types of

1234
00:42:26.400 --> 00:42:28.349
siloed identity as well,

1235
00:42:28.350 --> 00:42:30.449
and thinking about curriculum

1236
00:42:30.450 --> 00:42:31.769
specifically in round

1237
00:42:33.630 --> 00:42:37.199
ways to concretely

1238
00:42:37.200 --> 00:42:38.219
change things within the

1239
00:42:38.220 --> 00:42:39.719
institution. But what I actually

1240
00:42:39.720 --> 00:42:41.799
want to talk about in my seven

1241
00:42:41.800 --> 00:42:44.339
minutes is more around

1242
00:42:44.340 --> 00:42:46.409
the work that you do, not officially

1243
00:42:46.410 --> 00:42:49.229
with others, other faculty

1244
00:42:49.230 --> 00:42:51.749
alongside students and staff.

1245
00:42:51.750 --> 00:42:53.729
Organizing to educate

1246
00:42:53.730 --> 00:42:56.039
and agitate for

1247
00:42:56.040 --> 00:42:58.169
futures that we

1248
00:42:58.170 --> 00:42:59.609
want to see happen.

1249
00:42:59.610 --> 00:43:01.619
So this

1250
00:43:01.620 --> 00:43:03.449
is an image from 2020 where

1251
00:43:03.450 --> 00:43:05.339
I joined an official

1252
00:43:05.340 --> 00:43:06.340
group,

1253
00:43:07.320 --> 00:43:09.719
Cops Off Campus, to

1254
00:43:09.720 --> 00:43:11.609
take one small step

1255
00:43:11.610 --> 00:43:13.409
in our organizing towards thinking

1256
00:43:13.410 --> 00:43:15.329
about, first off,

1257
00:43:15.330 --> 00:43:17.159
cops off campus and and

1258
00:43:17.160 --> 00:43:18.160
larger

1259
00:43:19.620 --> 00:43:21.599
forms of national and

1260
00:43:21.600 --> 00:43:23.039
global abolition.

1261
00:43:24.240 --> 00:43:25.530
And so in this group,

1262
00:43:26.940 --> 00:43:28.619
oh my

1263
00:43:29.640 --> 00:43:31.499
my, in

1264
00:43:31.500 --> 00:43:32.500
this group.

1265
00:43:33.450 --> 00:43:35.099
There's a lot of amazing scholars.

1266
00:43:35.100 --> 00:43:36.100
And

1267
00:43:37.530 --> 00:43:38.939
we looked at a lot of

1268
00:43:40.200 --> 00:43:41.309
scholarly examples.

1269
00:43:41.310 --> 00:43:43.109
We did a lot of political education

1270
00:43:43.110 --> 00:43:45.269
conversations with each other and

1271
00:43:45.270 --> 00:43:46.800
looked at all the ways that

1272
00:43:48.630 --> 00:43:50.369
the presence of police on on

1273
00:43:50.370 --> 00:43:52.079
campuses have harmed our students

1274
00:43:52.080 --> 00:43:53.249
rather than protected them.

1275
00:43:53.250 --> 00:43:54.929
This is an abolition project by

1276
00:43:55.950 --> 00:43:58.019
PhD student Christian Marino

1277
00:43:58.020 --> 00:43:59.849
and Kim Fuentes, among others, that

1278
00:43:59.850 --> 00:44:01.979
they worked on, which mapped out

1279
00:44:01.980 --> 00:44:04.079
on UCLA's campus over

1280
00:44:04.080 --> 00:44:05.309
a span of time.

1281
00:44:05.310 --> 00:44:07.139
Incidents where police harmed

1282
00:44:07.140 --> 00:44:09.149
camp, harmed students, and as

1283
00:44:09.150 --> 00:44:11.519
well as sites where

1284
00:44:11.520 --> 00:44:14.519
UCLA is funding research

1285
00:44:14.520 --> 00:44:16.769
for surveillance or police

1286
00:44:16.770 --> 00:44:18.629
technologies that are

1287
00:44:18.630 --> 00:44:19.709
to control and

1288
00:44:21.030 --> 00:44:23.459
curtail people's

1289
00:44:23.460 --> 00:44:24.570
free speech rights.

1290
00:44:26.130 --> 00:44:27.130
And so

1291
00:44:28.410 --> 00:44:29.789
this kind of abolition mapping

1292
00:44:29.790 --> 00:44:31.379
project is a political education

1293
00:44:31.380 --> 00:44:32.819
project that comes out of this

1294
00:44:32.820 --> 00:44:35.129
unofficial organizing.

1295
00:44:35.130 --> 00:44:36.659
And it's really important because

1296
00:44:37.680 --> 00:44:39.779
history is really important and

1297
00:44:39.780 --> 00:44:41.279
educational institutions are really

1298
00:44:41.280 --> 00:44:42.419
important. That's why they're under

1299
00:44:42.420 --> 00:44:44.249
attack right now.

1300
00:44:44.250 --> 00:44:45.649
If we don't know our history,

1301
00:44:45.650 --> 00:44:47.029
there's that line we're doomed to

1302
00:44:47.030 --> 00:44:48.889
repeat ourselves.

1303
00:44:48.890 --> 00:44:50.809
So this map would include many more

1304
00:44:50.810 --> 00:44:52.669
incidents of police violence from

1305
00:44:52.670 --> 00:44:54.409
the last year and a half.

1306
00:44:54.410 --> 00:44:56.419
If we had time to

1307
00:44:56.420 --> 00:44:57.420
add to it,

1308
00:44:59.030 --> 00:45:00.949
and we've just seen

1309
00:45:00.950 --> 00:45:02.479
over that time the ongoing

1310
00:45:02.480 --> 00:45:05.599
escalation of UK's

1311
00:45:05.600 --> 00:45:07.519
investment in seeing our students

1312
00:45:07.520 --> 00:45:10.369
as threats rather than as

1313
00:45:10.370 --> 00:45:12.829
voices of moral courage,

1314
00:45:12.830 --> 00:45:14.599
speaking truth to power, speaking

1315
00:45:14.600 --> 00:45:16.879
about the genocide in Gaza.

1316
00:45:16.880 --> 00:45:18.739
And instead

1317
00:45:18.740 --> 00:45:20.779
of that, they continue

1318
00:45:20.780 --> 00:45:22.849
to repress brutally with

1319
00:45:22.850 --> 00:45:24.560
you, CPD and LAPD,

1320
00:45:26.480 --> 00:45:27.559
the student movement.

1321
00:45:27.560 --> 00:45:29.539
And in September,

1322
00:45:29.540 --> 00:45:31.699
this fall, UC Regents even

1323
00:45:31.700 --> 00:45:33.199
had a closed door meeting where they

1324
00:45:33.200 --> 00:45:34.759
used you CPD, to clear the

1325
00:45:34.760 --> 00:45:36.499
protesters so that they could vote

1326
00:45:36.500 --> 00:45:38.509
and unanimously to

1327
00:45:38.510 --> 00:45:40.669
buy even more munitions,

1328
00:45:40.670 --> 00:45:42.709
including more rounds

1329
00:45:42.710 --> 00:45:44.599
of plastic rubber

1330
00:45:44.600 --> 00:45:46.549
bullets, the 40 millimeter kind of

1331
00:45:46.550 --> 00:45:48.469
which broke the hand of

1332
00:45:48.470 --> 00:45:50.419
an art student and

1333
00:45:50.420 --> 00:45:51.420
my department

1334
00:45:52.370 --> 00:45:54.259
for simply daring to be present,

1335
00:45:54.260 --> 00:45:57.229
to simply dare to raise her voice

1336
00:45:57.230 --> 00:45:59.329
against UCLA's complicity

1337
00:45:59.330 --> 00:46:00.440
in the genocide.

1338
00:46:08.540 --> 00:46:09.540
Okay,

1339
00:46:10.520 --> 00:46:12.589
so as one of the few artists

1340
00:46:12.590 --> 00:46:14.509
in this group, I was

1341
00:46:14.510 --> 00:46:16.339
actually glad I had a useful skill

1342
00:46:16.340 --> 00:46:18.259
because I am very

1343
00:46:18.260 --> 00:46:19.579
humbled in these groups because I'm

1344
00:46:19.580 --> 00:46:20.899
often the person that has the least

1345
00:46:20.900 --> 00:46:22.789
amount of political knowledge

1346
00:46:22.790 --> 00:46:24.139
about these social issues that I

1347
00:46:24.140 --> 00:46:25.699
care about. And I'm, like, always

1348
00:46:25.700 --> 00:46:27.679
glad and humbled to get to learn

1349
00:46:27.680 --> 00:46:29.509
from people whose life, work

1350
00:46:29.510 --> 00:46:30.560
and experiences

1351
00:46:31.820 --> 00:46:33.349
are dedicated to subjects like

1352
00:46:33.350 --> 00:46:35.810
abolition and social justice.

1353
00:46:36.830 --> 00:46:38.929
And at least I can draw the pictures

1354
00:46:38.930 --> 00:46:39.930
for them.

1355
00:46:42.170 --> 00:46:43.729
And this PowerPoint was one of the

1356
00:46:43.730 --> 00:46:46.129
things where we worked on together.

1357
00:46:46.130 --> 00:46:47.359
And one thing I want to point out is

1358
00:46:47.360 --> 00:46:49.039
that groups like this are often

1359
00:46:49.040 --> 00:46:50.419
always trying to think in

1360
00:46:50.420 --> 00:46:53.329
intersectional ways and

1361
00:46:53.330 --> 00:46:55.159
thinking through solidarity

1362
00:46:55.160 --> 00:46:57.409
with calls for decolonization,

1363
00:46:57.410 --> 00:46:58.849
solidarity for.

1364
00:47:00.860 --> 00:47:03.259
Anti immigrant violence that

1365
00:47:03.260 --> 00:47:04.939
pushing back against that.

1366
00:47:04.940 --> 00:47:05.940
And

1367
00:47:06.980 --> 00:47:09.019
this political education always

1368
00:47:09.020 --> 00:47:10.969
begins with a kind of foundation of

1369
00:47:10.970 --> 00:47:12.949
understanding that the museum

1370
00:47:12.950 --> 00:47:14.449
as well as the university and these

1371
00:47:14.450 --> 00:47:15.799
kind of institutions that seem

1372
00:47:15.800 --> 00:47:17.749
really liberal and benign

1373
00:47:17.750 --> 00:47:19.849
are, you know,

1374
00:47:19.850 --> 00:47:21.019
they seem like they're places that

1375
00:47:21.020 --> 00:47:22.879
are for our empowerment and

1376
00:47:22.880 --> 00:47:24.859
our mental liberation, but that

1377
00:47:24.860 --> 00:47:26.779
they come out of

1378
00:47:26.780 --> 00:47:28.859
settler colonialism directly,

1379
00:47:28.860 --> 00:47:30.169
for example, with some of these

1380
00:47:30.170 --> 00:47:31.999
examples here, the

1381
00:47:32.000 --> 00:47:33.739
moral act, which was the land grant

1382
00:47:33.740 --> 00:47:35.689
universities where 11 million

1383
00:47:35.690 --> 00:47:37.099
acres of indigenous land

1384
00:47:38.870 --> 00:47:40.329
were given, to universities like

1385
00:47:40.330 --> 00:47:42.489
UCLA to use to build

1386
00:47:42.490 --> 00:47:44.739
their cultural wealth and university

1387
00:47:44.740 --> 00:47:45.740
wealth from.

1388
00:47:47.200 --> 00:47:48.200
So.

1389
00:47:53.920 --> 00:47:55.719
This form of settler colonialism is

1390
00:47:55.720 --> 00:47:57.249
something that I felt like when I

1391
00:47:57.250 --> 00:47:59.469
heard the title Decolonizing

1392
00:47:59.470 --> 00:48:01.449
Education. How do we talk about

1393
00:48:01.450 --> 00:48:02.859
what is happening now?

1394
00:48:02.860 --> 00:48:04.689
The, the, the largest kind

1395
00:48:04.690 --> 00:48:06.729
of issue

1396
00:48:06.730 --> 00:48:09.009
that came to my mind is the denial

1397
00:48:09.010 --> 00:48:10.869
of addressing the settler

1398
00:48:10.870 --> 00:48:12.939
colonialism that UCLA is complicit

1399
00:48:12.940 --> 00:48:13.959
in. And so

1400
00:48:14.980 --> 00:48:16.629
this kind of accumulation of wealth

1401
00:48:16.630 --> 00:48:18.219
that began with the founding of UCLA

1402
00:48:18.220 --> 00:48:19.959
and the moral acts, you know,

1403
00:48:19.960 --> 00:48:22.119
continues with UC is investments

1404
00:48:22.120 --> 00:48:23.979
in weapons companies which

1405
00:48:23.980 --> 00:48:25.449
support the settler colonial

1406
00:48:25.450 --> 00:48:27.699
genocide in Gaza,

1407
00:48:27.700 --> 00:48:29.799
which last Monday marked the 500th

1408
00:48:29.800 --> 00:48:30.800
day of.

1409
00:48:32.050 --> 00:48:33.339
And this investment in settler

1410
00:48:33.340 --> 00:48:34.569
colonial violence is something that

1411
00:48:34.570 --> 00:48:36.189
campus organizations like you

1412
00:48:36.190 --> 00:48:38.349
Diverse Jewish Voices for peace

1413
00:48:38.350 --> 00:48:40.449
and recently banned group

1414
00:48:40.450 --> 00:48:42.579
SJP students for Justice

1415
00:48:42.580 --> 00:48:45.279
in Palestine and grad SJP

1416
00:48:45.280 --> 00:48:47.709
have been protesting and amplifying

1417
00:48:47.710 --> 00:48:49.299
this call for the university to

1418
00:48:49.300 --> 00:48:50.439
divest.

1419
00:48:50.440 --> 00:48:52.869
And as of now, like despite

1420
00:48:52.870 --> 00:48:55.329
many different organizations and

1421
00:48:55.330 --> 00:48:56.860
across coalitions, across

1422
00:48:57.970 --> 00:48:59.499
the whole university, across

1423
00:48:59.500 --> 00:49:01.269
faculty, students and staff working

1424
00:49:01.270 --> 00:49:02.889
together, the leadership has refused

1425
00:49:02.890 --> 00:49:04.359
to even come to the table to have a

1426
00:49:04.360 --> 00:49:06.010
conversation about divestment.

1427
00:49:07.570 --> 00:49:09.759
And as an artist and educator,

1428
00:49:09.760 --> 00:49:11.349
it's pretty frightening to see the

1429
00:49:11.350 --> 00:49:13.269
university so

1430
00:49:13.270 --> 00:49:15.729
quickly align itself with

1431
00:49:15.730 --> 00:49:18.309
the repression of free speech.

1432
00:49:18.310 --> 00:49:20.229
They've created free speech zones

1433
00:49:20.230 --> 00:49:22.329
at UCLA, where

1434
00:49:22.330 --> 00:49:25.299
posters like these are

1435
00:49:25.300 --> 00:49:27.459
criminalized and not allowed to be

1436
00:49:27.460 --> 00:49:29.379
shown if they're shown outside

1437
00:49:29.380 --> 00:49:30.549
of the free speech zone.

1438
00:49:30.550 --> 00:49:32.739
So we had posters

1439
00:49:32.740 --> 00:49:35.049
in our grad building of

1440
00:49:35.050 --> 00:49:37.119
a lithograph of a it was an artwork,

1441
00:49:37.120 --> 00:49:38.619
actually, not a poster.

1442
00:49:38.620 --> 00:49:39.999
A lithograph of a Palestinian

1443
00:49:40.000 --> 00:49:41.829
children whose hand

1444
00:49:41.830 --> 00:49:43.119
is up and is pointing to free

1445
00:49:43.120 --> 00:49:45.219
Palestine. And

1446
00:49:45.220 --> 00:49:47.169
we had a silkscreen students made

1447
00:49:47.170 --> 00:49:48.999
in a workshop together said, we keep

1448
00:49:49.000 --> 00:49:51.279
us safe. And these were flagged

1449
00:49:51.280 --> 00:49:52.959
by the university, and we were told

1450
00:49:52.960 --> 00:49:55.599
to take them down as being out of

1451
00:49:55.600 --> 00:49:57.189
the free speech zone and against the

1452
00:49:57.190 --> 00:49:59.109
time, place, manner

1453
00:49:59.110 --> 00:50:01.329
rules, which are often ways

1454
00:50:01.330 --> 00:50:03.339
that the university is

1455
00:50:03.340 --> 00:50:05.619
finding to kind of be complicit

1456
00:50:05.620 --> 00:50:07.509
in silencing these

1457
00:50:07.510 --> 00:50:08.650
student organizations.

1458
00:50:10.840 --> 00:50:13.779
So, okay, I'm gonna finish

1459
00:50:13.780 --> 00:50:15.219
I'm bringing up these examples of

1460
00:50:15.220 --> 00:50:17.079
campus organizing in response

1461
00:50:17.080 --> 00:50:20.139
to this idea of decolonizing

1462
00:50:20.140 --> 00:50:21.159
pedagogy, because I think it's

1463
00:50:21.160 --> 00:50:22.749
important to think about pedagogy

1464
00:50:22.750 --> 00:50:25.059
that happens outside the classroom,

1465
00:50:25.060 --> 00:50:27.309
pedagogy that upends hierarchy,

1466
00:50:27.310 --> 00:50:29.199
that is about utilizing

1467
00:50:29.200 --> 00:50:31.179
university resources, but using

1468
00:50:31.180 --> 00:50:32.679
them to challenge the abuses of the

1469
00:50:32.680 --> 00:50:34.509
university and using

1470
00:50:34.510 --> 00:50:36.479
them to learn from

1471
00:50:36.480 --> 00:50:37.799
each other. So I've learned so much

1472
00:50:37.800 --> 00:50:39.599
from these different faculty and

1473
00:50:39.600 --> 00:50:41.339
students that I've organized from.

1474
00:50:41.340 --> 00:50:42.659
I think we need to build more

1475
00:50:42.660 --> 00:50:44.309
alignment with students and student

1476
00:50:44.310 --> 00:50:45.509
and student movements.

1477
00:50:45.510 --> 00:50:46.919
We have to use our faculty

1478
00:50:46.920 --> 00:50:49.319
associations and organizations

1479
00:50:49.320 --> 00:50:51.929
and resources and access to power

1480
00:50:51.930 --> 00:50:53.849
to push back against what's

1481
00:50:53.850 --> 00:50:54.850
happening.

1482
00:50:55.500 --> 00:50:56.500
And

1483
00:50:57.600 --> 00:50:59.579
so I've used this as my as

1484
00:50:59.580 --> 00:51:01.169
the kind of way that I focused on

1485
00:51:01.170 --> 00:51:02.999
the way that I

1486
00:51:03.000 --> 00:51:04.679
see the university as upholding

1487
00:51:04.680 --> 00:51:06.569
settler colonialism in its kind

1488
00:51:06.570 --> 00:51:08.459
of financial and

1489
00:51:08.460 --> 00:51:10.769
ideological intersection.

1490
00:51:10.770 --> 00:51:12.959
And I hope that there is a way that

1491
00:51:12.960 --> 00:51:15.119
even as a settler educator myself

1492
00:51:15.120 --> 00:51:16.589
like that, we can use these kind of

1493
00:51:16.590 --> 00:51:19.409
conversations and actions

1494
00:51:19.410 --> 00:51:21.539
to build real solidarity

1495
00:51:21.540 --> 00:51:23.489
across different like

1496
00:51:23.490 --> 00:51:24.490
minded interests.

1497
00:51:37.560 --> 00:51:38.560
Exciting.

1498
00:51:40.470 --> 00:51:41.470
So.

1499
00:51:43.110 --> 00:51:45.119
It's it's it's so interesting

1500
00:51:45.120 --> 00:51:47.009
because it's it's such a,

1501
00:51:47.010 --> 00:51:48.899
you know, this phrase

1502
00:51:48.900 --> 00:51:51.119
is so large and

1503
00:51:51.120 --> 00:51:53.369
seems quite

1504
00:51:53.370 --> 00:51:54.899
I don't know, in a way.

1505
00:51:54.900 --> 00:51:55.900
I think it

1506
00:51:57.150 --> 00:51:59.819
seems very impenetrable.

1507
00:51:59.820 --> 00:52:01.709
And it also seems like something

1508
00:52:01.710 --> 00:52:04.319
that's very hard to

1509
00:52:04.320 --> 00:52:06.209
to address or

1510
00:52:06.210 --> 00:52:08.339
actually like insert

1511
00:52:08.340 --> 00:52:10.499
into, you know, syllabi

1512
00:52:10.500 --> 00:52:11.609
or projects or assignment.

1513
00:52:11.610 --> 00:52:13.289
But it sounds like everybody is

1514
00:52:13.290 --> 00:52:15.689
doing some kind of like groundwork

1515
00:52:15.690 --> 00:52:19.019
or trying to like, lay groundwork

1516
00:52:19.020 --> 00:52:20.999
in, you know, how

1517
00:52:21.000 --> 00:52:23.369
you address the material

1518
00:52:23.370 --> 00:52:24.370
with students,

1519
00:52:25.890 --> 00:52:27.719
you know, especially like the

1520
00:52:27.720 --> 00:52:29.069
kind of material that they're

1521
00:52:29.070 --> 00:52:30.179
expecting

1522
00:52:31.260 --> 00:52:33.149
to encounter as like, you

1523
00:52:33.150 --> 00:52:34.150
know, in India,

1524
00:52:35.400 --> 00:52:37.289
a beginner beginning class and such,

1525
00:52:37.290 --> 00:52:39.299
or what Candace is talking about,

1526
00:52:39.300 --> 00:52:40.300
like,

1527
00:52:41.280 --> 00:52:42.929
you know, which is also a kind of

1528
00:52:42.930 --> 00:52:45.089
groundwork, like a latter reality,

1529
00:52:45.090 --> 00:52:46.859
like a horizontal kind of focusing

1530
00:52:46.860 --> 00:52:48.839
on the the horizontal if, if

1531
00:52:48.840 --> 00:52:51.119
like destabilizing

1532
00:52:51.120 --> 00:52:53.309
or unsettling that the the pyramid

1533
00:52:53.310 --> 00:52:55.499
is very difficult.

1534
00:52:55.500 --> 00:52:57.449
I'm not sure what the the

1535
00:52:57.450 --> 00:52:59.099
question is there because I feel

1536
00:52:59.100 --> 00:53:01.709
very I feel also very

1537
00:53:01.710 --> 00:53:03.929
challenged by this

1538
00:53:03.930 --> 00:53:06.179
as a, as a faculty because

1539
00:53:06.180 --> 00:53:08.729
I think sometimes we are,

1540
00:53:08.730 --> 00:53:10.679
you know, we get these jobs because

1541
00:53:10.680 --> 00:53:12.449
we we need them.

1542
00:53:12.450 --> 00:53:14.279
We didn't go to school to be

1543
00:53:14.280 --> 00:53:16.349
an arts educator necessarily.

1544
00:53:16.350 --> 00:53:18.239
So it's like having to

1545
00:53:18.240 --> 00:53:20.880
take on this multifold

1546
00:53:22.290 --> 00:53:23.520
responsibility.

1547
00:53:25.440 --> 00:53:26.819
I'm not I'm not sure if there's a

1548
00:53:26.820 --> 00:53:29.249
question there, but if if anyone

1549
00:53:29.250 --> 00:53:31.789
wanted to expand

1550
00:53:31.790 --> 00:53:33.769
on doing so many

1551
00:53:33.770 --> 00:53:34.770
things at once.

1552
00:53:38.240 --> 00:53:39.799
I think the interesting thing is to

1553
00:53:39.800 --> 00:53:41.869
sort of forgo ideas

1554
00:53:41.870 --> 00:53:43.189
of expertise.

1555
00:53:43.190 --> 00:53:44.149
Right.

1556
00:53:44.150 --> 00:53:45.949
I think academia this is.

1557
00:53:48.260 --> 00:53:50.989
Quoting George Lipschitz.

1558
00:53:50.990 --> 00:53:52.279
Academia has a problem.

1559
00:53:52.280 --> 00:53:53.659
That fetishize is the first and

1560
00:53:53.660 --> 00:53:54.589
last.

1561
00:53:54.590 --> 00:53:56.329
Right. Who's the first one to do

1562
00:53:56.330 --> 00:53:58.129
something? Who's the last?

1563
00:53:58.130 --> 00:53:59.929
Who's the last person to do X?

1564
00:53:59.930 --> 00:54:01.099
Conclusion. Right.

1565
00:54:01.100 --> 00:54:03.409
I think perhaps the decolonize

1566
00:54:03.410 --> 00:54:05.509
methodology is the one one

1567
00:54:05.510 --> 00:54:07.999
that insists to stay in the middle.

1568
00:54:08.000 --> 00:54:09.649
So our job is not to be first or

1569
00:54:09.650 --> 00:54:11.089
last, but it's a kind of create

1570
00:54:11.090 --> 00:54:12.769
continuities and connections.

1571
00:54:12.770 --> 00:54:13.609
Right.

1572
00:54:13.610 --> 00:54:15.439
I also think, you

1573
00:54:15.440 --> 00:54:16.579
know, John, we're talking about this

1574
00:54:16.580 --> 00:54:17.389
over lunch, right?

1575
00:54:17.390 --> 00:54:18.949
I think there's a certain limits.

1576
00:54:19.970 --> 00:54:21.679
What's been revealed are limits to

1577
00:54:21.680 --> 00:54:24.349
kind of identifier identitarian.

1578
00:54:24.350 --> 00:54:26.239
So I pronounce it identitarian kind

1579
00:54:26.240 --> 00:54:28.399
of politics, like a sheer kind of

1580
00:54:28.400 --> 00:54:29.629
like just the limits of

1581
00:54:29.630 --> 00:54:31.429
representational politics and fact

1582
00:54:31.430 --> 00:54:32.929
that we need to think about it as a

1583
00:54:32.930 --> 00:54:34.489
epistemic side, right?

1584
00:54:34.490 --> 00:54:36.169
Where certain people are allowed to

1585
00:54:36.170 --> 00:54:37.459
have stories and certain people are

1586
00:54:37.460 --> 00:54:38.389
not right.

1587
00:54:38.390 --> 00:54:39.889
So that's a very different type of

1588
00:54:39.890 --> 00:54:42.079
coalition or project that forces

1589
00:54:42.080 --> 00:54:43.400
us to not just think about.

1590
00:54:45.440 --> 00:54:47.209
Again, George Lipschitz said this

1591
00:54:47.210 --> 00:54:48.589
beautiful quote. We should we need

1592
00:54:48.590 --> 00:54:49.849
to stop thinking about one's

1593
00:54:49.850 --> 00:54:51.739
bloodline. But but think about our

1594
00:54:51.740 --> 00:54:54.109
shared bloodshed,

1595
00:54:54.110 --> 00:54:55.579
right? Like there's ways to think

1596
00:54:55.580 --> 00:54:57.409
about how

1597
00:54:57.410 --> 00:54:59.479
type of comparative relation

1598
00:54:59.480 --> 00:55:01.789
or anti-racism, a comparative

1599
00:55:01.790 --> 00:55:03.979
relation or kind of antiseptic

1600
00:55:03.980 --> 00:55:05.389
colonialism, right?

1601
00:55:05.390 --> 00:55:07.429
That is not just focusing on one

1602
00:55:07.430 --> 00:55:09.259
story, but perhaps all of our

1603
00:55:09.260 --> 00:55:10.279
stories. Right?

1604
00:55:10.280 --> 00:55:11.179
So we need to think about

1605
00:55:11.180 --> 00:55:12.409
coalitions.

1606
00:55:12.410 --> 00:55:14.629
I applaud the AAPI network

1607
00:55:14.630 --> 00:55:16.369
to sort of take this on.

1608
00:55:16.370 --> 00:55:17.599
Right.

1609
00:55:17.600 --> 00:55:19.849
I remember

1610
00:55:19.850 --> 00:55:21.409
what's the Michelle Michelle Yeoh

1611
00:55:21.410 --> 00:55:23.179
movie that got the Oscars?

1612
00:55:24.230 --> 00:55:26.539
Yeah, it was the same time the

1613
00:55:26.540 --> 00:55:28.189
the students for Fair Admissions or

1614
00:55:28.190 --> 00:55:30.199
something were instrumental in kind

1615
00:55:30.200 --> 00:55:31.669
of banning affirmative action.

1616
00:55:31.670 --> 00:55:32.509
Right.

1617
00:55:32.510 --> 00:55:34.789
So this is I'm so happy to see

1618
00:55:34.790 --> 00:55:36.529
my Asian students, Asian diasporic

1619
00:55:36.530 --> 00:55:38.179
students here. But it's also perhaps

1620
00:55:38.180 --> 00:55:40.189
for us to really kind

1621
00:55:40.190 --> 00:55:42.259
of focus our commitments,

1622
00:55:42.260 --> 00:55:43.909
right, in terms of thinking about

1623
00:55:45.080 --> 00:55:47.449
abolition, decolonization,

1624
00:55:47.450 --> 00:55:48.450
coalition

1625
00:55:49.670 --> 00:55:51.109
participation.

1626
00:55:51.110 --> 00:55:52.999
How can we think about trust?

1627
00:55:53.000 --> 00:55:54.139
All those things are in my head.

1628
00:56:01.310 --> 00:56:02.310
Is that too much?

1629
00:56:13.370 --> 00:56:15.589
We we had a maybe we could.

1630
00:56:15.590 --> 00:56:16.549
This would be beneficial.

1631
00:56:16.550 --> 00:56:18.379
We had a talk when we did

1632
00:56:18.380 --> 00:56:20.269
the zoom conversation where we

1633
00:56:20.270 --> 00:56:22.249
were talking about the,

1634
00:56:22.250 --> 00:56:24.289
the kind of like the economizing

1635
00:56:24.290 --> 00:56:25.149
education.

1636
00:56:25.150 --> 00:56:26.169
And I think you said something

1637
00:56:26.170 --> 00:56:27.519
really, really cool.

1638
00:56:27.520 --> 00:56:28.729
Do you mind talking about that?

1639
00:56:28.730 --> 00:56:30.069
Do you remember what else what I'm

1640
00:56:30.070 --> 00:56:31.070
referring to?

1641
00:56:32.290 --> 00:56:33.999
Giving us a different perspective of

1642
00:56:34.000 --> 00:56:34.959
looking at the term.

1643
00:56:34.960 --> 00:56:36.339
So I thought that might be kind of

1644
00:56:36.340 --> 00:56:38.139
interesting for us to jump into.

1645
00:56:38.140 --> 00:56:39.789
Again, bit of a refresher.

1646
00:56:39.790 --> 00:56:40.809
Oh.

1647
00:56:40.810 --> 00:56:42.639
What was it? It was it was sort

1648
00:56:42.640 --> 00:56:43.640
of like.

1649
00:56:45.280 --> 00:56:47.109
Do it. I can't remember as so

1650
00:56:47.110 --> 00:56:49.299
good. It was so good.

1651
00:56:49.300 --> 00:56:50.649
That was really good.

1652
00:56:50.650 --> 00:56:51.579
You guys don't remember?

1653
00:56:51.580 --> 00:56:51.849
I don't have.

1654
00:56:51.850 --> 00:56:52.669
My dress from that.

1655
00:56:52.670 --> 00:56:54.519
Oh, I think yeah,

1656
00:56:54.520 --> 00:56:55.659
I was, I, I was like trying to take

1657
00:56:55.660 --> 00:56:57.639
notes, but I wasn't like having

1658
00:56:57.640 --> 00:56:59.769
to. I was in the car on zoom,

1659
00:56:59.770 --> 00:57:01.149
so like, I couldn't, I was just like

1660
00:57:01.150 --> 00:57:02.119
off the top of my head.

1661
00:57:02.120 --> 00:57:03.909
I didn't know I was saying, yeah.

1662
00:57:03.910 --> 00:57:04.809
I don't know. It was just a

1663
00:57:04.810 --> 00:57:06.369
different way of like thinking about

1664
00:57:06.370 --> 00:57:07.389
it, you know, because we, you know,

1665
00:57:07.390 --> 00:57:09.219
it's like we've used that

1666
00:57:09.220 --> 00:57:11.169
term for a bit, you know, and you're

1667
00:57:11.170 --> 00:57:12.429
talking about.

1668
00:57:12.430 --> 00:57:13.959
Oh, okay.

1669
00:57:13.960 --> 00:57:15.459
I think it's coming.

1670
00:57:15.460 --> 00:57:17.709
It was I don't know, I guess

1671
00:57:17.710 --> 00:57:19.539
maybe I'll just start with like

1672
00:57:19.540 --> 00:57:20.709
I'm always thinking like, well,

1673
00:57:20.710 --> 00:57:23.199
we're just here, like we're here.

1674
00:57:23.200 --> 00:57:25.539
And so what do we do now that we are

1675
00:57:25.540 --> 00:57:27.009
all here?

1676
00:57:27.010 --> 00:57:28.010
And so.

1677
00:57:29.980 --> 00:57:31.809
I think it was like D it was like,

1678
00:57:31.810 --> 00:57:33.729
okay, we've gone through waves

1679
00:57:33.730 --> 00:57:36.279
of colonization and there's,

1680
00:57:36.280 --> 00:57:38.229
you know, decolonization.

1681
00:57:38.230 --> 00:57:40.099
But just calling it like all

1682
00:57:40.100 --> 00:57:41.470
these things like is there

1683
00:57:42.880 --> 00:57:44.439
I don't, I actually don't know what

1684
00:57:44.440 --> 00:57:46.769
the next world will look like.

1685
00:57:46.770 --> 00:57:47.770
Right.

1686
00:57:48.160 --> 00:57:49.479
Well, I mean, I think part of it is

1687
00:57:49.480 --> 00:57:51.339
like that colonization

1688
00:57:51.340 --> 00:57:53.349
part is not like get rid

1689
00:57:53.350 --> 00:57:55.329
of get rid of it, that that history,

1690
00:57:55.330 --> 00:57:56.799
it's like, and that's what sort of

1691
00:57:56.800 --> 00:57:57.849
like what you're talking about

1692
00:57:57.850 --> 00:57:59.529
peeling back the onion, you know,

1693
00:57:59.530 --> 00:58:01.269
it's like that, that history needs

1694
00:58:01.270 --> 00:58:02.589
to be talked about, you know, in

1695
00:58:02.590 --> 00:58:04.689
education, but was like

1696
00:58:04.690 --> 00:58:06.549
like having that component in

1697
00:58:06.550 --> 00:58:07.809
there as well I don't know.

1698
00:58:07.810 --> 00:58:08.919
Yeah.

1699
00:58:08.920 --> 00:58:10.899
No. Yeah I think, I think

1700
00:58:10.900 --> 00:58:12.789
maybe that

1701
00:58:12.790 --> 00:58:15.009
could go also

1702
00:58:15.010 --> 00:58:17.859
to this like undoing

1703
00:58:17.860 --> 00:58:19.719
book because as I'm trying

1704
00:58:19.720 --> 00:58:21.039
to figure out what it was that I was

1705
00:58:21.040 --> 00:58:22.169
thinking about, I'm thinking about

1706
00:58:22.170 --> 00:58:23.549
what it's good just talking about

1707
00:58:23.550 --> 00:58:25.409
here of, like, the refusing

1708
00:58:25.410 --> 00:58:27.149
to be the first and the last and

1709
00:58:27.150 --> 00:58:29.039
those like the burdens of the work

1710
00:58:29.040 --> 00:58:30.269
that we all have because we all know

1711
00:58:30.270 --> 00:58:32.099
this experience of like in

1712
00:58:32.100 --> 00:58:33.929
the department, whatever you're

1713
00:58:33.930 --> 00:58:36.209
in, it's like everyone looks to us

1714
00:58:36.210 --> 00:58:38.609
to have the answers and it's

1715
00:58:38.610 --> 00:58:40.859
you're not just an expert because

1716
00:58:40.860 --> 00:58:42.719
of your identity and having

1717
00:58:42.720 --> 00:58:44.639
had to face things, you, you

1718
00:58:44.640 --> 00:58:46.589
know, and so

1719
00:58:46.590 --> 00:58:48.149
there is this like, you have to be

1720
00:58:48.150 --> 00:58:49.979
both excellent at

1721
00:58:49.980 --> 00:58:51.149
something and an expert at

1722
00:58:51.150 --> 00:58:53.249
something. But then also this,

1723
00:58:53.250 --> 00:58:54.719
but especially with all this like

1724
00:58:54.720 --> 00:58:56.879
crack down on Dei, then it's like,

1725
00:58:56.880 --> 00:58:58.379
oh, but maybe you're just here just

1726
00:58:58.380 --> 00:59:00.299
because we're not what you know.

1727
00:59:01.860 --> 00:59:04.109
But I also wonder if, like,

1728
00:59:05.550 --> 00:59:07.829
part of, like, coalitions

1729
00:59:07.830 --> 00:59:09.809
like this is I've is

1730
00:59:09.810 --> 00:59:11.709
maybe getting past

1731
00:59:11.710 --> 00:59:13.739
a lot of the ways

1732
00:59:13.740 --> 00:59:16.229
in which the problem of colonization

1733
00:59:16.230 --> 00:59:17.789
just ends up pitting us against,

1734
00:59:17.790 --> 00:59:18.599
like when you're talking about,

1735
00:59:18.600 --> 00:59:19.559
like, this thing with, like,

1736
00:59:19.560 --> 00:59:21.389
affirmative action, and it's like we

1737
00:59:21.390 --> 00:59:23.279
all need to be in this together

1738
00:59:23.280 --> 00:59:24.659
because it's like the system is

1739
00:59:24.660 --> 00:59:25.919
going to is going to try to like,

1740
00:59:25.920 --> 00:59:27.629
pit one group against another to get

1741
00:59:27.630 --> 00:59:29.339
what they want. But then it's like,

1742
00:59:29.340 --> 00:59:31.139
then they're going to come for those

1743
00:59:31.140 --> 00:59:33.059
same students who put

1744
00:59:33.060 --> 00:59:34.919
this Supreme Court case forward,

1745
00:59:34.920 --> 00:59:36.299
right? You know, it's like this

1746
00:59:36.300 --> 00:59:38.279
whole that can't be like

1747
00:59:38.280 --> 00:59:40.319
the end of affirmative action

1748
00:59:40.320 --> 00:59:41.519
can't be separated from these

1749
00:59:41.520 --> 00:59:42.569
attacks on like, birthright

1750
00:59:42.570 --> 00:59:43.979
citizenship. And we all know the

1751
00:59:43.980 --> 00:59:45.449
history of that, especially when it

1752
00:59:45.450 --> 00:59:47.519
comes to Asian Americans.

1753
00:59:47.520 --> 00:59:49.919
And it's just like, you know,

1754
00:59:49.920 --> 00:59:50.969
yeah, I don't know. I'm just

1755
00:59:52.500 --> 00:59:53.609
I don't know where that's going.

1756
00:59:53.610 --> 00:59:54.610
But

1757
00:59:55.770 --> 00:59:56.770
yeah.

1758
01:00:01.830 --> 01:00:04.019
I also think education

1759
01:00:04.020 --> 01:00:05.489
doesn't need to be within an

1760
01:00:05.490 --> 01:00:06.490
institution.

1761
01:00:08.850 --> 01:00:10.169
Says a dean.

1762
01:00:14.580 --> 01:00:16.409
Was also thinking about

1763
01:00:16.410 --> 01:00:18.269
what Porfirio brought up

1764
01:00:18.270 --> 01:00:20.279
about like, you know,

1765
01:00:20.280 --> 01:00:21.449
the that.

1766
01:00:23.670 --> 01:00:25.889
That, that in this the space

1767
01:00:25.890 --> 01:00:27.809
that we're located in, we're

1768
01:00:27.810 --> 01:00:29.789
also having to

1769
01:00:29.790 --> 01:00:30.719
kind of. Yeah.

1770
01:00:30.720 --> 01:00:31.979
We're I mean, I don't know

1771
01:00:31.980 --> 01:00:33.869
automatically you kind of start

1772
01:00:33.870 --> 01:00:36.419
to like,

1773
01:00:36.420 --> 01:00:38.699
like wear the coat of,

1774
01:00:38.700 --> 01:00:40.799
of a, of a, someone who's an

1775
01:00:40.800 --> 01:00:43.229
authority or, or

1776
01:00:43.230 --> 01:00:44.819
and it's kind of really, I don't

1777
01:00:44.820 --> 01:00:47.399
know, like a split personality

1778
01:00:47.400 --> 01:00:49.409
to, to to have to

1779
01:00:49.410 --> 01:00:51.389
have like authority

1780
01:00:51.390 --> 01:00:53.279
to convince

1781
01:00:53.280 --> 01:00:55.889
students or to, for them to believe

1782
01:00:55.890 --> 01:00:58.139
you as well as at the same time

1783
01:00:59.880 --> 01:01:01.709
kind of like inspire

1784
01:01:01.710 --> 01:01:04.259
them with, with

1785
01:01:04.260 --> 01:01:06.089
a radical about

1786
01:01:06.090 --> 01:01:08.159
that this is all bullshit or

1787
01:01:08.160 --> 01:01:10.499
you know, or that

1788
01:01:10.500 --> 01:01:13.169
that, you know,

1789
01:01:13.170 --> 01:01:15.029
I think would prefer was saying

1790
01:01:15.030 --> 01:01:17.239
about also like the

1791
01:01:17.240 --> 01:01:19.340
spiritual aspect to

1792
01:01:20.420 --> 01:01:22.649
being an artist or being creative.

1793
01:01:22.650 --> 01:01:24.230
I think in that way that's,

1794
01:01:25.280 --> 01:01:27.109
I don't know, useful

1795
01:01:27.110 --> 01:01:29.569
to think, you know, like underneath

1796
01:01:29.570 --> 01:01:30.860
and through all of these

1797
01:01:32.330 --> 01:01:34.549
boundaries and like categories

1798
01:01:34.550 --> 01:01:35.550
and silos.

1799
01:01:39.140 --> 01:01:40.939
Which, I don't know, it's either

1800
01:01:40.940 --> 01:01:43.069
it's hard to I maybe there's no

1801
01:01:43.070 --> 01:01:45.170
reconciliation of all of that stuff.

1802
01:01:50.480 --> 01:01:51.480
Yeah.

1803
01:01:53.300 --> 01:01:54.440
There's no question in there

1804
01:01:55.670 --> 01:01:57.469
because I, I feel like I'm really

1805
01:01:57.470 --> 01:01:58.729
thinking with you all because my

1806
01:01:58.730 --> 01:02:00.439
questions that I actually have

1807
01:02:00.440 --> 01:02:02.539
prepared are like like,

1808
01:02:03.860 --> 01:02:05.779
you know, are we

1809
01:02:05.780 --> 01:02:07.969
to an extent, extent do our efforts

1810
01:02:07.970 --> 01:02:10.399
reproduce like settler

1811
01:02:10.400 --> 01:02:12.289
occupation and it's ongoing ness?

1812
01:02:12.290 --> 01:02:14.239
And I think that

1813
01:02:14.240 --> 01:02:16.369
maybe that's like, maybe too

1814
01:02:16.370 --> 01:02:18.169
reductive of a question because you

1815
01:02:18.170 --> 01:02:20.239
kind of talked about this impossible

1816
01:02:20.240 --> 01:02:21.889
binary. I feel very

1817
01:02:23.150 --> 01:02:25.099
like pulled

1818
01:02:25.100 --> 01:02:27.769
by this. I don't know, maybe.

1819
01:02:27.770 --> 01:02:29.629
How do you how do you how do

1820
01:02:29.630 --> 01:02:31.609
you deal with that?

1821
01:02:31.610 --> 01:02:33.019
I, I don't know.

1822
01:02:33.020 --> 01:02:34.339
Okay. I'm trying to think of, like,

1823
01:02:34.340 --> 01:02:35.719
what I can say because there's some

1824
01:02:35.720 --> 01:02:36.889
things that happen that we all deal

1825
01:02:36.890 --> 01:02:38.929
with in the places where we work

1826
01:02:38.930 --> 01:02:39.919
with. Like, how much can I talk

1827
01:02:39.920 --> 01:02:41.449
about, how much can talk about.

1828
01:02:41.450 --> 01:02:42.829
But it makes me think about, like

1829
01:02:42.830 --> 01:02:44.209
what you were saying, Candace,

1830
01:02:44.210 --> 01:02:46.009
about, like, the need to organize

1831
01:02:46.010 --> 01:02:47.359
outside of these spaces because

1832
01:02:47.360 --> 01:02:49.669
something that I experienced was

1833
01:02:49.670 --> 01:02:51.679
the ways in which I think try

1834
01:02:51.680 --> 01:02:53.300
attempting to tackle

1835
01:02:54.380 --> 01:02:56.959
like embedded problematic

1836
01:02:56.960 --> 01:02:59.089
systems.

1837
01:02:59.090 --> 01:03:01.609
When you are trying

1838
01:03:01.610 --> 01:03:03.139
your best to work through the

1839
01:03:03.140 --> 01:03:05.299
channels that the department

1840
01:03:05.300 --> 01:03:07.069
and the division put up, I've seen

1841
01:03:07.070 --> 01:03:09.979
how it has ended up reproducing

1842
01:03:09.980 --> 01:03:11.689
or just like shifting the violence

1843
01:03:11.690 --> 01:03:13.549
on to other people Paul

1844
01:03:13.550 --> 01:03:15.589
and it's can

1845
01:03:15.590 --> 01:03:17.060
be really Trump like

1846
01:03:18.920 --> 01:03:20.689
traumatizing I think for everyone

1847
01:03:20.690 --> 01:03:22.339
involved. Which is why I think what

1848
01:03:22.340 --> 01:03:24.889
you're talking about, of

1849
01:03:24.890 --> 01:03:26.779
finding places where we can

1850
01:03:26.780 --> 01:03:27.780
organize

1851
01:03:28.970 --> 01:03:31.099
and other, you know, like these

1852
01:03:31.100 --> 01:03:32.809
other kinds of faculty associations

1853
01:03:32.810 --> 01:03:34.819
or community is probably the

1854
01:03:34.820 --> 01:03:37.159
place where these things can happen.

1855
01:03:37.160 --> 01:03:38.160
I don't know.

1856
01:03:39.140 --> 01:03:40.140
Yeah.

1857
01:03:41.930 --> 01:03:43.849
What do you think about, like,

1858
01:03:43.850 --> 01:03:44.850
on these,

1859
01:03:45.980 --> 01:03:47.479
you know, on these.

1860
01:03:47.480 --> 01:03:49.639
Yeah. On these issues of, like, what

1861
01:03:49.640 --> 01:03:52.099
can get done within the institution

1862
01:03:52.100 --> 01:03:53.989
and then outside where you just have

1863
01:03:53.990 --> 01:03:55.189
to sort of say, I'm not going to do

1864
01:03:55.190 --> 01:03:57.379
it in this space,

1865
01:03:57.380 --> 01:03:58.669
and that's necessarily going to be

1866
01:03:58.670 --> 01:03:59.269
in that space.

1867
01:03:59.270 --> 01:04:01.399
But yeah,

1868
01:04:01.400 --> 01:04:03.529
I mean, I have a very

1869
01:04:03.530 --> 01:04:05.599
close, beloved colleague that says

1870
01:04:05.600 --> 01:04:07.669
that the university is like a cruise

1871
01:04:07.670 --> 01:04:08.479
ship.

1872
01:04:08.480 --> 01:04:10.069
There's like a buffet if you want to

1873
01:04:10.070 --> 01:04:12.219
like, get some free your resources.

1874
01:04:12.220 --> 01:04:14.019
But the change that happens, it's

1875
01:04:14.020 --> 01:04:15.519
like a cruise ship is very slow,

1876
01:04:15.520 --> 01:04:17.529
right? So you can do what you can

1877
01:04:17.530 --> 01:04:20.139
within it to try to redirect

1878
01:04:20.140 --> 01:04:21.909
that big ass ship that's going to go

1879
01:04:21.910 --> 01:04:22.910
off from.

1880
01:04:23.620 --> 01:04:25.059
And it will make real changes.

1881
01:04:25.060 --> 01:04:26.499
Like what I was saying, I do believe

1882
01:04:26.500 --> 01:04:28.029
in like curriculum changes and

1883
01:04:28.030 --> 01:04:30.069
changes to like the diversification

1884
01:04:30.070 --> 01:04:31.569
of the faculty in the student body.

1885
01:04:31.570 --> 01:04:33.399
And those things have changed within

1886
01:04:33.400 --> 01:04:34.929
the seven years I've been been at

1887
01:04:34.930 --> 01:04:37.329
UCLA, and I've seen that

1888
01:04:37.330 --> 01:04:39.069
have a really big impact.

1889
01:04:39.070 --> 01:04:41.499
But there's

1890
01:04:41.500 --> 01:04:42.849
real limits, right?

1891
01:04:44.470 --> 01:04:46.869
So and I think specifically around

1892
01:04:46.870 --> 01:04:48.219
Pearl, you were asking specifically

1893
01:04:48.220 --> 01:04:49.809
around the question of

1894
01:04:49.810 --> 01:04:50.949
decolonization, right?

1895
01:04:53.260 --> 01:04:55.149
Like, yeah, I don't know.

1896
01:04:55.150 --> 01:04:57.579
I think if you know, we if we

1897
01:04:59.080 --> 01:05:00.219
it's an interesting question, like,

1898
01:05:00.220 --> 01:05:02.259
why was this panel chosen

1899
01:05:02.260 --> 01:05:04.149
to talk about that when, you

1900
01:05:04.150 --> 01:05:05.619
know, like, I don't know, I

1901
01:05:05.620 --> 01:05:07.689
personally I don't

1902
01:05:07.690 --> 01:05:09.549
I am not doing a lot

1903
01:05:09.550 --> 01:05:11.349
of work and I probably should be

1904
01:05:11.350 --> 01:05:13.419
around working for land

1905
01:05:13.420 --> 01:05:15.609
back and repatriating

1906
01:05:15.610 --> 01:05:16.509
indigenous land.

1907
01:05:16.510 --> 01:05:17.649
But if I'm not doing that, then

1908
01:05:17.650 --> 01:05:19.929
yeah, everything I'm doing is along.

1909
01:05:19.930 --> 01:05:21.129
You know, it's not necessarily

1910
01:05:21.130 --> 01:05:22.600
against it, but it is.

1911
01:05:24.550 --> 01:05:26.379
It is not aligned with

1912
01:05:26.380 --> 01:05:28.779
that and it doesn't serve that.

1913
01:05:28.780 --> 01:05:30.759
And if I pretend that

1914
01:05:30.760 --> 01:05:32.829
the curriculum

1915
01:05:32.830 --> 01:05:34.719
or kind of

1916
01:05:34.720 --> 01:05:36.429
social justice issues I care about

1917
01:05:36.430 --> 01:05:38.649
in my teaching

1918
01:05:38.650 --> 01:05:40.479
are somehow the same as

1919
01:05:40.480 --> 01:05:42.069
decolonization, then it is actually

1920
01:05:42.070 --> 01:05:43.070
harming it. Like what

1921
01:05:43.960 --> 01:05:46.089
you know, Steven said around

1922
01:05:46.090 --> 01:05:47.259
settler moves to innocence.

1923
01:05:47.260 --> 01:05:48.609
So the so one thing we talked about

1924
01:05:48.610 --> 01:05:49.610
in the zoom was,

1925
01:05:50.770 --> 01:05:53.169
you know, uneasiness with

1926
01:05:53.170 --> 01:05:54.819
with the topic at hand, but also why

1927
01:05:54.820 --> 01:05:56.799
we chose to to be in

1928
01:05:56.800 --> 01:05:59.049
it and

1929
01:05:59.050 --> 01:06:01.209
feeling uneasy with

1930
01:06:01.210 --> 01:06:03.039
is this in itself a settler

1931
01:06:03.040 --> 01:06:04.689
move to, in a sense, like have a

1932
01:06:04.690 --> 01:06:06.729
bunch of nonwhite educators

1933
01:06:06.730 --> 01:06:08.349
up here talking about decolonizing

1934
01:06:08.350 --> 01:06:09.789
education.

1935
01:06:09.790 --> 01:06:11.709
And how do we how do we be

1936
01:06:11.710 --> 01:06:13.719
allies? How do we be actually

1937
01:06:13.720 --> 01:06:15.069
thoughtful about how we try to

1938
01:06:15.070 --> 01:06:16.070
engage the subject?

1939
01:06:21.310 --> 01:06:22.869
Right. Okay.

1940
01:06:22.870 --> 01:06:23.870
I thought so.

1941
01:06:26.770 --> 01:06:29.109
Thank you for this portion

1942
01:06:29.110 --> 01:06:30.579
of the panel.

1943
01:06:30.580 --> 01:06:32.589
Now we'd like to open

1944
01:06:32.590 --> 01:06:34.469
the the the

1945
01:06:34.470 --> 01:06:36.429
discussion up to the audience

1946
01:06:36.430 --> 01:06:37.599
for a Q&A.

1947
01:06:39.040 --> 01:06:40.029
Yes.

1948
01:06:40.030 --> 01:06:41.139
This fellow right here.

1949
01:06:44.530 --> 01:06:46.179
Thank you for asking a question.

1950
01:06:47.920 --> 01:06:49.629
Thank you guys so much for being

1951
01:06:49.630 --> 01:06:50.630
here today.

1952
01:06:51.910 --> 01:06:53.889
I mean, we're all arts students

1953
01:06:53.890 --> 01:06:54.679
at UCLA.

1954
01:06:54.680 --> 01:06:56.199
We're all students of color.

1955
01:06:56.200 --> 01:06:57.339
And I think a lot of us have

1956
01:06:57.340 --> 01:06:59.019
definitely felt, you know,

1957
01:06:59.020 --> 01:07:00.579
disregarded in race and

1958
01:07:00.580 --> 01:07:01.779
discriminated against even.

1959
01:07:01.780 --> 01:07:02.349
Within the own.

1960
01:07:02.350 --> 01:07:03.350
Community.

1961
01:07:03.880 --> 01:07:05.979
But I think a panel like this

1962
01:07:05.980 --> 01:07:07.589
and educators like you are the.

1963
01:07:07.590 --> 01:07:09.479
Reason we haven't given up.

1964
01:07:09.480 --> 01:07:10.649
And I feel like it's given us a lot

1965
01:07:10.650 --> 01:07:11.789
of hope.

1966
01:07:11.790 --> 01:07:13.589
I kind of want to harken back to one

1967
01:07:13.590 --> 01:07:14.669
thing that was said earlier in the

1968
01:07:14.670 --> 01:07:15.939
conversation.

1969
01:07:15.940 --> 01:07:17.969
It was that creating identity based

1970
01:07:17.970 --> 01:07:20.189
work is not welcome, and has made

1971
01:07:20.190 --> 01:07:21.899
a lot of us and other students of

1972
01:07:21.900 --> 01:07:23.879
color very unpopular with

1973
01:07:23.880 --> 01:07:25.289
our white classmates.

1974
01:07:25.290 --> 01:07:26.459
And these are the same white

1975
01:07:26.460 --> 01:07:28.379
classmates that claim to an act

1976
01:07:28.380 --> 01:07:30.209
of pseudo liberalism.

1977
01:07:30.210 --> 01:07:31.439
And I'm just kind of curious.

1978
01:07:31.440 --> 01:07:33.329
When you make work that's

1979
01:07:33.330 --> 01:07:35.339
confronting white supremacy.

1980
01:07:35.340 --> 01:07:37.709
And that's implicating white people.

1981
01:07:37.710 --> 01:07:38.729
There is discomfort.

1982
01:07:38.730 --> 01:07:40.169
And when you push back, you're

1983
01:07:40.170 --> 01:07:42.089
seeing as aggressive and as

1984
01:07:42.090 --> 01:07:43.619
militant.

1985
01:07:43.620 --> 01:07:45.389
But I really I really like what you

1986
01:07:45.390 --> 01:07:47.399
said, Paul, about how if we can

1987
01:07:47.400 --> 01:07:48.539
collectively.

1988
01:07:48.540 --> 01:07:50.609
Experience this as people of color,

1989
01:07:50.610 --> 01:07:51.629
white people at the very.

1990
01:07:51.630 --> 01:07:52.949
Least can learn about it in their

1991
01:07:52.950 --> 01:07:54.659
programs and in their schools.

1992
01:07:54.660 --> 01:07:56.519
And I think my question for all

1993
01:07:56.520 --> 01:07:58.529
of you on the panel is,

1994
01:07:58.530 --> 01:08:00.029
you know, I mean, there's not I

1995
01:08:00.030 --> 01:08:00.839
mean, there's definitely

1996
01:08:00.840 --> 01:08:02.879
organization within the arts where

1997
01:08:02.880 --> 01:08:04.259
students of color are trying to band

1998
01:08:04.260 --> 01:08:06.119
together, but it can also

1999
01:08:06.120 --> 01:08:07.889
be very isolating because it still

2000
01:08:07.890 --> 01:08:10.049
is a predominantly white landscape.

2001
01:08:10.050 --> 01:08:11.549
And I was talking to a friend last

2002
01:08:11.550 --> 01:08:12.659
night about this, and she's an

2003
01:08:12.660 --> 01:08:14.009
African-American artist in the art

2004
01:08:14.010 --> 01:08:15.149
school at UCLA.

2005
01:08:15.150 --> 01:08:16.228
And I was like, well, we got to do

2006
01:08:16.229 --> 01:08:17.699
something. And she looked at me and

2007
01:08:17.700 --> 01:08:18.749
she was like, there's nothing we can

2008
01:08:18.750 --> 01:08:19.559
do.

2009
01:08:19.560 --> 01:08:20.398
There's nothing we can do.

2010
01:08:20.399 --> 01:08:21.269
There's no space for us.

2011
01:08:21.270 --> 01:08:22.528
There's nothing we can do.

2012
01:08:22.529 --> 01:08:23.699
So I'm just kind of curious.

2013
01:08:23.700 --> 01:08:25.139
A lot of us have kind of reached a

2014
01:08:25.140 --> 01:08:26.249
point of.

2015
01:08:26.250 --> 01:08:28.049
I guess, of hopelessness in terms.

2016
01:08:28.050 --> 01:08:29.579
Of thinking about, like, how do we

2017
01:08:29.580 --> 01:08:30.509
organize?

2018
01:08:30.510 --> 01:08:32.549
We don't really have a space for us.

2019
01:08:32.550 --> 01:08:33.959
Is there any advice you would have

2020
01:08:33.960 --> 01:08:35.459
on, on really uniting students of

2021
01:08:35.460 --> 01:08:37.318
color within our programs and

2022
01:08:37.319 --> 01:08:38.969
democratizing that curriculum?

2023
01:08:38.970 --> 01:08:39.929
But again, thank you so much for

2024
01:08:39.930 --> 01:08:40.349
being here.

2025
01:08:40.350 --> 01:08:41.350
Appreciate it.

2026
01:08:45.660 --> 01:08:47.818
Should I take that as the UCLA rep

2027
01:08:47.819 --> 01:08:49.259
in the room?

2028
01:08:49.260 --> 01:08:51.329
I mean, in line with what I talked

2029
01:08:51.330 --> 01:08:52.919
about, I think like organize

2030
01:08:52.920 --> 01:08:54.959
yourselves like use the

2031
01:08:54.960 --> 01:08:56.278
there's the Journal club money.

2032
01:08:56.279 --> 01:08:57.269
You can get money from the

2033
01:08:57.270 --> 01:08:59.009
university to start a club.

2034
01:08:59.010 --> 01:09:00.689
And then you can use that money to,

2035
01:09:01.710 --> 01:09:02.879
you know, fund some of your own

2036
01:09:02.880 --> 01:09:04.228
research that you share with each

2037
01:09:04.229 --> 01:09:06.239
other. Go to field trips with

2038
01:09:06.240 --> 01:09:07.648
other. Bring in speakers with.

2039
01:09:08.939 --> 01:09:10.169
Find a conversation there.

2040
01:09:10.170 --> 01:09:12.000
I think, you know, as faculty,

2041
01:09:13.439 --> 01:09:15.148
some of the faculty are working on

2042
01:09:15.149 --> 01:09:16.469
our side of things to do the

2043
01:09:16.470 --> 01:09:17.608
curricular kinds of things.

2044
01:09:17.609 --> 01:09:19.528
But, you know, in terms of the

2045
01:09:19.529 --> 01:09:20.699
building community, if you're

2046
01:09:20.700 --> 01:09:22.858
feeling alienated or whatever,

2047
01:09:22.859 --> 01:09:25.379
I think that's self investigation

2048
01:09:25.380 --> 01:09:26.339
around that.

2049
01:09:26.340 --> 01:09:28.108
Like a somebody from the outside is

2050
01:09:28.109 --> 01:09:30.148
not going to organize that for you.

2051
01:09:30.149 --> 01:09:32.249
And in terms of hopelessness,

2052
01:09:32.250 --> 01:09:34.169
like, don't fucking be hope

2053
01:09:34.170 --> 01:09:36.119
of sorry, don't be hopeless,

2054
01:09:36.120 --> 01:09:36.898
don't be hopeless.

2055
01:09:36.899 --> 01:09:38.519
That's like that's how power defeats

2056
01:09:38.520 --> 01:09:39.959
you. Like that's how the institution

2057
01:09:39.960 --> 01:09:41.999
defeats you. Like, like that is

2058
01:09:42.000 --> 01:09:43.499
that is the the words don't

2059
01:09:43.500 --> 01:09:45.089
capitulate to that hopelessness.

2060
01:09:45.090 --> 01:09:47.398
Like the whole reason the students

2061
01:09:47.399 --> 01:09:48.778
and the student movements are so

2062
01:09:48.779 --> 01:09:50.909
powerful that the nation is

2063
01:09:50.910 --> 01:09:52.259
so frightened of them is because

2064
01:09:52.260 --> 01:09:54.059
they're not hopeless.

2065
01:09:54.060 --> 01:09:55.769
They're full of hope and they're

2066
01:09:55.770 --> 01:09:57.689
pushing constantly.

2067
01:09:59.160 --> 01:10:00.749
Yeah. And I appreciate that.

2068
01:10:00.750 --> 01:10:02.539
And that's the you can't lose hope.

2069
01:10:02.540 --> 01:10:04.699
I think, you know,

2070
01:10:04.700 --> 01:10:06.559
one of the I think I read a study a

2071
01:10:06.560 --> 01:10:08.420
long time ago that said, like

2072
01:10:10.130 --> 01:10:12.169
a large amount of students that are

2073
01:10:12.170 --> 01:10:14.299
in the arts lose

2074
01:10:14.300 --> 01:10:16.279
interest and and

2075
01:10:16.280 --> 01:10:18.049
stop being artists, you know.

2076
01:10:18.050 --> 01:10:20.029
And the primary reason is that

2077
01:10:21.530 --> 01:10:23.359
they're that the work

2078
01:10:23.360 --> 01:10:24.889
does not relate to them anymore.

2079
01:10:24.890 --> 01:10:27.349
Right. I honestly believe our work

2080
01:10:27.350 --> 01:10:28.729
artwork is about identity.

2081
01:10:28.730 --> 01:10:30.409
I mean, you could argue it up the

2082
01:10:30.410 --> 01:10:32.299
but it's like it has an essence of

2083
01:10:32.300 --> 01:10:34.159
the artist, right?

2084
01:10:34.160 --> 01:10:36.109
And you know, the

2085
01:10:36.110 --> 01:10:37.669
thing that I was seeing is like

2086
01:10:38.690 --> 01:10:40.459
work that dealt with identity was

2087
01:10:40.460 --> 01:10:42.379
seen as like like

2088
01:10:42.380 --> 01:10:43.939
like if there is like it's like fast

2089
01:10:43.940 --> 01:10:45.379
fashion, like, oh, that happened

2090
01:10:45.380 --> 01:10:47.269
then, you know, and now it's like,

2091
01:10:47.270 --> 01:10:48.169
how do we move on?

2092
01:10:48.170 --> 01:10:50.209
How do we, you know,

2093
01:10:50.210 --> 01:10:51.769
how are we progressive in this area

2094
01:10:51.770 --> 01:10:53.959
as like, well, wait a minute,

2095
01:10:53.960 --> 01:10:55.759
I'm talking about my life.

2096
01:10:55.760 --> 01:10:57.559
I'm talking about my own personal

2097
01:10:57.560 --> 01:10:58.429
experiences.

2098
01:10:58.430 --> 01:11:00.319
Right. So For

2099
01:11:00.320 --> 01:11:01.999
me. It's like what I tell students,

2100
01:11:02.000 --> 01:11:04.159
it's like, I'll never tell you what

2101
01:11:04.160 --> 01:11:06.109
to do as an artist.

2102
01:11:06.110 --> 01:11:08.179
Whatever you're interested in, I'm

2103
01:11:08.180 --> 01:11:09.199
going to encourage you.

2104
01:11:09.200 --> 01:11:10.189
Of course, I'm going to give you

2105
01:11:10.190 --> 01:11:11.599
feedback. I tell you, look at this,

2106
01:11:11.600 --> 01:11:12.409
look at that.

2107
01:11:12.410 --> 01:11:14.299
But I'm encourage you as a student.

2108
01:11:14.300 --> 01:11:15.139
Right.

2109
01:11:15.140 --> 01:11:16.159
And I think

2110
01:11:17.330 --> 01:11:19.129
for me it's like

2111
01:11:20.720 --> 01:11:22.159
helping, just helping people

2112
01:11:22.160 --> 01:11:23.029
understand that.

2113
01:11:23.030 --> 01:11:24.769
It's like whatever world you're in,

2114
01:11:24.770 --> 01:11:25.969
you're going to you're going to

2115
01:11:25.970 --> 01:11:27.829
stick to it if it relates

2116
01:11:27.830 --> 01:11:29.179
to you. Right.

2117
01:11:29.180 --> 01:11:30.769
And if you start doing something

2118
01:11:30.770 --> 01:11:32.509
just to fit into the art world that

2119
01:11:32.510 --> 01:11:33.679
maybe doesn't deal with that.

2120
01:11:33.680 --> 01:11:35.509
I mean, I've had a lot of things.

2121
01:11:35.510 --> 01:11:36.889
I can remember being in this one

2122
01:11:36.890 --> 01:11:37.909
situation.

2123
01:11:37.910 --> 01:11:39.829
When I first started off, I

2124
01:11:39.830 --> 01:11:41.239
was at Susanville Matter.

2125
01:11:41.240 --> 01:11:42.469
There were some other collectors

2126
01:11:42.470 --> 01:11:44.419
there, and

2127
01:11:44.420 --> 01:11:46.339
they said, oh,

2128
01:11:46.340 --> 01:11:48.259
we saw your you know, I

2129
01:11:48.260 --> 01:11:49.279
told them about my my work at

2130
01:11:49.280 --> 01:11:50.899
Charlie James is one of my first

2131
01:11:50.900 --> 01:11:52.159
shows. I said, oh yeah, we saw that

2132
01:11:52.160 --> 01:11:53.029
work there.

2133
01:11:53.030 --> 01:11:54.349
Is it? But white people don't

2134
01:11:54.350 --> 01:11:55.909
collect your work, do they?

2135
01:11:55.910 --> 01:11:57.319
I'm like, well, they're my biggest

2136
01:11:57.320 --> 01:11:58.999
collectors, you know what I mean?

2137
01:11:59.000 --> 01:12:00.319
It's like, but there's a lot of

2138
01:12:00.320 --> 01:12:01.669
misunderstandings there.

2139
01:12:01.670 --> 01:12:03.619
And the thing is, just

2140
01:12:03.620 --> 01:12:04.849
keep on doing your work.

2141
01:12:04.850 --> 01:12:06.919
You know, it's not about, you know,

2142
01:12:06.920 --> 01:12:08.539
trying to please somebody or what

2143
01:12:08.540 --> 01:12:09.829
have you, you know, and

2144
01:12:11.150 --> 01:12:12.889
once you're grounded in that, it's

2145
01:12:12.890 --> 01:12:14.779
like you just speaking your truth.

2146
01:12:14.780 --> 01:12:16.639
And other artists are doing it so we

2147
01:12:16.640 --> 01:12:18.169
don't have to apologize for doing

2148
01:12:18.170 --> 01:12:20.029
it. We don't have to give an

2149
01:12:20.030 --> 01:12:21.559
explanation per se.

2150
01:12:21.560 --> 01:12:24.049
It's like, hey, this is my

2151
01:12:24.050 --> 01:12:25.189
my world, right?

2152
01:12:25.190 --> 01:12:26.190
So.

2153
01:12:29.450 --> 01:12:30.589
I would say organize around

2154
01:12:30.590 --> 01:12:31.699
struggle.

2155
01:12:31.700 --> 01:12:33.559
I'm sure that this affection

2156
01:12:33.560 --> 01:12:35.509
UCLA what we have that at Cal

2157
01:12:35.510 --> 01:12:36.799
Arts right now.

2158
01:12:36.800 --> 01:12:38.389
Cue up with some disaffected

2159
01:12:38.390 --> 01:12:40.579
students at Cal Arts.

2160
01:12:40.580 --> 01:12:41.959
But I also think there's something

2161
01:12:41.960 --> 01:12:44.359
really important to recognize

2162
01:12:44.360 --> 01:12:46.789
that feelings of victimhood,

2163
01:12:46.790 --> 01:12:49.309
of being a vilification,

2164
01:12:49.310 --> 01:12:50.579
of being the victor.

2165
01:12:50.580 --> 01:12:53.119
I once read that the three vs

2166
01:12:53.120 --> 01:12:55.339
victim victim

2167
01:12:55.340 --> 01:12:57.729
villain Victor

2168
01:12:57.730 --> 01:12:59.679
is a product

2169
01:12:59.680 --> 01:13:01.629
of a certain type of winners take

2170
01:13:01.630 --> 01:13:04.389
all kind of colonialism, right?

2171
01:13:04.390 --> 01:13:06.399
So the key is

2172
01:13:06.400 --> 01:13:08.229
to not sort of translate

2173
01:13:08.230 --> 01:13:09.759
that sort of disaffection or

2174
01:13:09.760 --> 01:13:11.589
grievance, but

2175
01:13:11.590 --> 01:13:13.419
to sort of transform it into

2176
01:13:13.420 --> 01:13:14.949
a kind of collective struggle.

2177
01:13:14.950 --> 01:13:16.629
Right. That's why I love Robin D.G.

2178
01:13:16.630 --> 01:13:18.669
Kelly's like love study struggle.

2179
01:13:18.670 --> 01:13:20.340
You know, you have to

2180
01:13:21.770 --> 01:13:23.919
have to know your roots,

2181
01:13:23.920 --> 01:13:25.599
right? Have to have a sense of trust

2182
01:13:25.600 --> 01:13:26.799
and love.

2183
01:13:26.800 --> 01:13:28.719
But also everything has

2184
01:13:28.720 --> 01:13:29.949
to be kind of organized around

2185
01:13:29.950 --> 01:13:30.819
struggle.

2186
01:13:30.820 --> 01:13:32.049
And I think the cool thing about art

2187
01:13:32.050 --> 01:13:34.269
is that is that like,

2188
01:13:34.270 --> 01:13:35.270
isn't that

2189
01:13:36.430 --> 01:13:38.859
don't we correct the norms?

2190
01:13:38.860 --> 01:13:40.449
Right. We're living in a particular

2191
01:13:40.450 --> 01:13:42.309
moment in time where

2192
01:13:42.310 --> 01:13:43.989
who would have thought that all of

2193
01:13:43.990 --> 01:13:45.699
these things are being banned?

2194
01:13:45.700 --> 01:13:47.529
So perhaps it's our kind of task and

2195
01:13:47.530 --> 01:13:49.719
challenge to, to

2196
01:13:49.720 --> 01:13:51.549
really kind of

2197
01:13:51.550 --> 01:13:53.289
redress that sort of norm.

2198
01:13:55.720 --> 01:13:56.720
Don't feel lonely.

2199
01:14:01.960 --> 01:14:03.789
Yeah. What?

2200
01:14:03.790 --> 01:14:05.499
So I honestly, I think that, like,

2201
01:14:05.500 --> 01:14:07.059
maybe people are jealous.

2202
01:14:07.060 --> 01:14:09.579
Like, the white students are jealous

2203
01:14:09.580 --> 01:14:11.739
because it's because it's not

2204
01:14:11.740 --> 01:14:13.359
because there's just, like these

2205
01:14:13.360 --> 01:14:15.129
spaces that oftentimes you don't

2206
01:14:15.130 --> 01:14:16.239
have to go to when you're not

2207
01:14:16.240 --> 01:14:17.859
challenged in a way.

2208
01:14:17.860 --> 01:14:19.839
And so I think there's

2209
01:14:19.840 --> 01:14:20.829
something like something I was

2210
01:14:20.830 --> 01:14:22.749
observing classrooms is

2211
01:14:22.750 --> 01:14:24.789
I think because we

2212
01:14:24.790 --> 01:14:26.469
have had to think these things

2213
01:14:26.470 --> 01:14:27.459
through so much, it's on the

2214
01:14:27.460 --> 01:14:28.989
surface. So it's going to come into

2215
01:14:28.990 --> 01:14:30.879
the work. And so it's becomes

2216
01:14:30.880 --> 01:14:32.619
very uncomfortable for someone who's

2217
01:14:32.620 --> 01:14:35.019
never had to think about this

2218
01:14:35.020 --> 01:14:36.369
to engage. And so I think there's a

2219
01:14:36.370 --> 01:14:38.379
jealousy because there's a depth

2220
01:14:38.380 --> 01:14:39.189
there.

2221
01:14:39.190 --> 01:14:40.299
But I think that's also like a

2222
01:14:40.300 --> 01:14:41.829
double edged sword.

2223
01:14:41.830 --> 01:14:43.269
And that kind of goes with this sort

2224
01:14:43.270 --> 01:14:45.399
of like what was

2225
01:14:45.400 --> 01:14:46.779
what everyone sort of talk about

2226
01:14:46.780 --> 01:14:48.909
here. Because also

2227
01:14:48.910 --> 01:14:51.249
in art, making it in critique,

2228
01:14:51.250 --> 01:14:53.589
you have to make a space between

2229
01:14:53.590 --> 01:14:55.389
your identity and the work that's on

2230
01:14:55.390 --> 01:14:57.459
the wall or on the pedestal

2231
01:14:57.460 --> 01:15:00.279
or in the performance, because your

2232
01:15:00.280 --> 01:15:02.169
the facts of your existence can't

2233
01:15:02.170 --> 01:15:04.689
be up for debate or critique.

2234
01:15:04.690 --> 01:15:05.829
The history of your life, the

2235
01:15:05.830 --> 01:15:07.089
history of where you come from,

2236
01:15:07.090 --> 01:15:08.739
that's like not that's like no, no,

2237
01:15:08.740 --> 01:15:09.579
no, no.

2238
01:15:09.580 --> 01:15:11.469
But you have to be able

2239
01:15:11.470 --> 01:15:12.969
to you have to have the skill.

2240
01:15:12.970 --> 01:15:14.229
And that's the challenge of dealing

2241
01:15:14.230 --> 01:15:16.119
with these students of figure

2242
01:15:16.120 --> 01:15:17.499
out, okay, this is what I'm this is

2243
01:15:17.500 --> 01:15:18.879
why I talk about infiltrating the

2244
01:15:18.880 --> 01:15:21.189
medium. So like, whatever

2245
01:15:21.190 --> 01:15:23.379
tools you're using know exactly

2246
01:15:23.380 --> 01:15:24.849
how and why you're using them.

2247
01:15:24.850 --> 01:15:27.099
So if someone just, like, can't go,

2248
01:15:27.100 --> 01:15:28.089
like, they're just, like, not

2249
01:15:28.090 --> 01:15:30.219
prepared to go with

2250
01:15:30.220 --> 01:15:32.409
identity, that you still

2251
01:15:32.410 --> 01:15:34.989
have something to kind of like,

2252
01:15:34.990 --> 01:15:36.309
you know, keep pushing that

2253
01:15:36.310 --> 01:15:38.469
conversation forward and then

2254
01:15:38.470 --> 01:15:39.729
they won't even know that you've,

2255
01:15:39.730 --> 01:15:41.229
like, caught them in the trap, you

2256
01:15:41.230 --> 01:15:43.119
know? So because I

2257
01:15:43.120 --> 01:15:44.319
think that's one of the hardest

2258
01:15:44.320 --> 01:15:46.389
things that artists of color,

2259
01:15:46.390 --> 01:15:48.399
queer artists like

2260
01:15:48.400 --> 01:15:50.229
non male cis male artists

2261
01:15:50.230 --> 01:15:51.879
have is like, you find yourself in

2262
01:15:51.880 --> 01:15:54.029
this space where

2263
01:15:54.030 --> 01:15:55.949
if we haven't developed that

2264
01:15:55.950 --> 01:15:57.479
space between ourselves and the

2265
01:15:57.480 --> 01:15:59.369
work, it becomes incredibly

2266
01:15:59.370 --> 01:16:01.439
traumatic because you're standing

2267
01:16:01.440 --> 01:16:02.369
there in front of a classroom

2268
01:16:02.370 --> 01:16:04.829
defending like your existence.

2269
01:16:04.830 --> 01:16:06.629
And it's just there's no escape from

2270
01:16:06.630 --> 01:16:09.059
that. So it's like, you know,

2271
01:16:09.060 --> 01:16:11.399
so if it's a painting like

2272
01:16:11.400 --> 01:16:13.529
know exactly why and how you

2273
01:16:13.530 --> 01:16:15.419
chose that, you know,

2274
01:16:15.420 --> 01:16:17.069
the scale, the form, all of these

2275
01:16:17.070 --> 01:16:18.809
things, like, and then figure out

2276
01:16:18.810 --> 01:16:20.879
what you want the work to do versus

2277
01:16:20.880 --> 01:16:23.099
like what.

2278
01:16:23.100 --> 01:16:24.059
And that's something that I also

2279
01:16:24.060 --> 01:16:25.589
learned from a student at Cal Arts

2280
01:16:25.590 --> 01:16:27.419
years ago who was making work

2281
01:16:27.420 --> 01:16:29.759
dealing with histories and

2282
01:16:29.760 --> 01:16:32.009
violence, and trauma was like

2283
01:16:32.010 --> 01:16:34.019
something that they said to me was

2284
01:16:34.020 --> 01:16:35.099
the biggest thing that they learned

2285
01:16:35.100 --> 01:16:37.319
was figuring

2286
01:16:37.320 --> 01:16:39.959
out that the

2287
01:16:39.960 --> 01:16:41.879
success of the work on the crate

2288
01:16:41.880 --> 01:16:44.429
was not the same thing as their own

2289
01:16:44.430 --> 01:16:46.439
journey and

2290
01:16:46.440 --> 01:16:47.429
getting where they needed to go in

2291
01:16:47.430 --> 01:16:49.379
terms of healing, like the work,

2292
01:16:49.380 --> 01:16:50.699
the work on the wall couldn't do it.

2293
01:16:50.700 --> 01:16:51.689
It's just okay. It's just

2294
01:16:51.690 --> 01:16:52.799
information.

2295
01:16:52.800 --> 01:16:54.629
So. Yeah.

2296
01:16:54.630 --> 01:16:55.739
And then. Yeah, just push it back.

2297
01:16:55.740 --> 01:16:57.629
Make make the white students figure

2298
01:16:57.630 --> 01:16:59.459
their whiteness out.

2299
01:16:59.460 --> 01:17:00.299
Yeah.

2300
01:17:00.300 --> 01:17:01.300
Thank you so much.

2301
01:17:04.920 --> 01:17:07.079
Oh, they're back

2302
01:17:07.080 --> 01:17:08.080
row.

2303
01:17:12.870 --> 01:17:14.429
I think that official there.

2304
01:17:14.430 --> 01:17:16.289
Oh, she

2305
01:17:16.290 --> 01:17:18.149
said oh, sorry.

2306
01:17:18.150 --> 01:17:20.009
Sorry. It's not back

2307
01:17:20.010 --> 01:17:21.060
row. It's too late.

2308
01:17:24.480 --> 01:17:25.480
Hello.

2309
01:17:31.860 --> 01:17:32.860
Can I,

2310
01:17:33.750 --> 01:17:35.729
can we testing.

2311
01:17:35.730 --> 01:17:36.730
Okay, great.

2312
01:17:38.850 --> 01:17:40.709
So I guess my

2313
01:17:40.710 --> 01:17:41.729
question is.

2314
01:17:43.080 --> 01:17:44.429
It does seem like a large.

2315
01:17:44.430 --> 01:17:45.269
Task.

2316
01:17:45.270 --> 01:17:46.979
Decolonization.

2317
01:17:46.980 --> 01:17:48.269
I feel like.

2318
01:17:48.270 --> 01:17:50.939
I still don't understand

2319
01:17:50.940 --> 01:17:52.799
how we do that.

2320
01:17:52.800 --> 01:17:55.499
And I often wonder.

2321
01:17:55.500 --> 01:17:57.449
What does identity mean in the

2322
01:17:57.450 --> 01:17:58.450
United States?

2323
01:17:59.490 --> 01:18:01.829
Are we American or are we.

2324
01:18:01.830 --> 01:18:03.479
All these subcategories?

2325
01:18:04.770 --> 01:18:06.509
I feel like the gentleman in the

2326
01:18:06.510 --> 01:18:08.399
blazer. I really like your

2327
01:18:08.400 --> 01:18:10.439
approach, in the sense that we

2328
01:18:10.440 --> 01:18:12.959
have to make our struggles

2329
01:18:12.960 --> 01:18:14.399
intersectional

2330
01:18:15.480 --> 01:18:17.909
and collective because we

2331
01:18:17.910 --> 01:18:20.789
I still feel like our fragmented

2332
01:18:20.790 --> 01:18:22.979
and our approach to these difficult

2333
01:18:22.980 --> 01:18:24.059
things.

2334
01:18:24.060 --> 01:18:26.249
For example, I'm an artist myself,

2335
01:18:26.250 --> 01:18:28.499
and I never thought of myself

2336
01:18:28.500 --> 01:18:30.869
as a black conceptual

2337
01:18:30.870 --> 01:18:32.309
or abstract artist.

2338
01:18:32.310 --> 01:18:33.839
But I also realized.

2339
01:18:33.840 --> 01:18:34.889
In my 30s that.

2340
01:18:34.890 --> 01:18:37.049
I never really embraced.

2341
01:18:37.050 --> 01:18:38.759
What that even could potentially

2342
01:18:38.760 --> 01:18:39.509
mean.

2343
01:18:39.510 --> 01:18:41.789
Because I was still.

2344
01:18:41.790 --> 01:18:44.429
Viewing myself under

2345
01:18:44.430 --> 01:18:45.430
European,

2346
01:18:46.440 --> 01:18:47.869
you know, I guess

2347
01:18:49.220 --> 01:18:51.019
esthetics.

2348
01:18:51.020 --> 01:18:53.179
And it was

2349
01:18:53.180 --> 01:18:55.279
troubling at first, but now

2350
01:18:55.280 --> 01:18:57.499
I feel like I can understand

2351
01:18:57.500 --> 01:18:59.629
how these very powerful

2352
01:18:59.630 --> 01:19:00.349
systems.

2353
01:19:00.350 --> 01:19:02.029
Frame and shape the world.

2354
01:19:02.030 --> 01:19:04.339
But I often also wonder.

2355
01:19:04.340 --> 01:19:06.319
To move forward, do

2356
01:19:06.320 --> 01:19:08.299
we have more conversations about

2357
01:19:08.300 --> 01:19:10.999
our collective Americanness

2358
01:19:11.000 --> 01:19:12.379
as well? That brings us all

2359
01:19:12.380 --> 01:19:14.269
together. And instead

2360
01:19:14.270 --> 01:19:16.339
of and so like, does

2361
01:19:16.340 --> 01:19:18.709
identities sometimes prohibit

2362
01:19:18.710 --> 01:19:20.569
us from

2363
01:19:20.570 --> 01:19:22.429
sharing our stories in

2364
01:19:22.430 --> 01:19:24.109
a way that helps us to all heal?

2365
01:19:32.150 --> 01:19:33.920
There's a there's a

2366
01:19:35.000 --> 01:19:37.009
scholar who teaches at Georgetown.

2367
01:19:37.010 --> 01:19:38.329
I'm not sure if you have read The

2368
01:19:38.330 --> 01:19:40.249
Elite Capture.

2369
01:19:40.250 --> 01:19:41.250
Have you read that?

2370
01:19:42.290 --> 01:19:44.629
There's a recent interview

2371
01:19:44.630 --> 01:19:46.609
with Ben Davis, the kind of art

2372
01:19:46.610 --> 01:19:48.889
news art critic who interviews

2373
01:19:48.890 --> 01:19:50.779
a other famous elephant at the

2374
01:19:50.780 --> 01:19:52.639
table who's, I think a

2375
01:19:52.640 --> 01:19:54.319
moral philosopher and ethical

2376
01:19:54.320 --> 01:19:56.269
philosopher, and in the whole,

2377
01:19:56.270 --> 01:19:58.279
the word, I think.

2378
01:19:58.280 --> 01:20:00.529
Let me see if I remember the problem

2379
01:20:00.530 --> 01:20:01.909
in Elite Capture.

2380
01:20:01.910 --> 01:20:03.529
He kind of talks about the problem

2381
01:20:03.530 --> 01:20:06.139
of difference politics,

2382
01:20:06.140 --> 01:20:08.179
where we kind of defer

2383
01:20:08.180 --> 01:20:09.180
to

2384
01:20:10.190 --> 01:20:11.629
marginalized communities.

2385
01:20:11.630 --> 01:20:13.339
And part of it is it's actually a

2386
01:20:13.340 --> 01:20:15.079
response to kind of standpoint

2387
01:20:15.080 --> 01:20:16.489
epistemology or feminist

2388
01:20:16.490 --> 01:20:18.319
epistemology, where like

2389
01:20:18.320 --> 01:20:20.039
one doesn't, you know, one does

2390
01:20:20.040 --> 01:20:21.409
understand their lived experience

2391
01:20:21.410 --> 01:20:22.399
and therefore that lived

2392
01:20:22.400 --> 01:20:25.249
experiences, the kind of authentic

2393
01:20:25.250 --> 01:20:26.809
becomes the sort of authentic,

2394
01:20:26.810 --> 01:20:28.789
authentic authenticity

2395
01:20:28.790 --> 01:20:30.979
of authority, authority

2396
01:20:30.980 --> 01:20:31.969
to a certain degree.

2397
01:20:31.970 --> 01:20:33.919
So he's sort of arguing that we

2398
01:20:33.920 --> 01:20:37.009
need to move beyond recognizing

2399
01:20:37.010 --> 01:20:38.839
standpoint. Epistemology is an

2400
01:20:38.840 --> 01:20:40.939
extension of kind of like women

2401
01:20:40.940 --> 01:20:43.489
of color feminism, but recognizing

2402
01:20:43.490 --> 01:20:45.319
that institutions

2403
01:20:45.320 --> 01:20:47.659
have co-opted

2404
01:20:47.660 --> 01:20:49.609
ideas of identity

2405
01:20:49.610 --> 01:20:51.589
to still kind of maintain a

2406
01:20:51.590 --> 01:20:53.389
certain type of status quo or

2407
01:20:53.390 --> 01:20:55.549
scenario, or differences sorted,

2408
01:20:55.550 --> 01:20:57.589
contained, etc..

2409
01:20:57.590 --> 01:20:59.419
So he's sort of arguing that

2410
01:20:59.420 --> 01:21:01.219
we need to think about

2411
01:21:01.220 --> 01:21:02.899
constructivist notions of

2412
01:21:02.900 --> 01:21:05.479
anti-racism, right?

2413
01:21:05.480 --> 01:21:06.559
That's a really short book.

2414
01:21:06.560 --> 01:21:07.560
I wish it was longer

2415
01:21:08.690 --> 01:21:10.039
in terms of just trying to parse it

2416
01:21:10.040 --> 01:21:11.720
out, but that was a very useful.

2417
01:21:12.740 --> 01:21:15.469
This podcast is a very useful

2418
01:21:15.470 --> 01:21:17.329
interview for me personally.

2419
01:21:20.090 --> 01:21:22.849
In the interest of time,

2420
01:21:22.850 --> 01:21:23.960
we might have to

2421
01:21:25.250 --> 01:21:27.319
continue this

2422
01:21:27.320 --> 01:21:29.390
discussion in our ten minute break

2423
01:21:31.040 --> 01:21:32.930
so that we can take a break and

2424
01:21:34.070 --> 01:21:36.379
give everyone a little stretching

2425
01:21:36.380 --> 01:21:37.380
stretching period.

2426
01:21:38.570 --> 01:21:40.459
But yeah, I welcome us

2427
01:21:40.460 --> 01:21:42.759
to keep talking about this,

2428
01:21:42.760 --> 01:21:43.809
you know, even when we get off

2429
01:21:43.810 --> 01:21:45.189
stage.

2430
01:21:45.190 --> 01:21:48.699
So I want to thank our panelists

2431
01:21:48.700 --> 01:21:50.529
today and also to the

2432
01:21:50.530 --> 01:21:51.579
audience.

2433
01:21:51.580 --> 01:21:53.649
So after ten,

2434
01:21:53.650 --> 01:21:54.879
we'll come back and

2435
01:21:56.320 --> 01:21:58.299
begin panel to.

2436
01:21:58.300 --> 01:21:59.300
Thank you for.

2437
01:22:02.620 --> 01:22:04.779
With a discussion, Practical

2438
01:22:04.780 --> 01:22:06.609
Strategies to break free

2439
01:22:06.610 --> 01:22:09.009
from imposed West as centric

2440
01:22:09.010 --> 01:22:10.899
discourses and to re

2441
01:22:10.900 --> 01:22:13.599
learn arts and Humanities.

2442
01:22:13.600 --> 01:22:15.609
Panelists will explore ways

2443
01:22:15.610 --> 01:22:18.039
to expand knowledge systems

2444
01:22:18.040 --> 01:22:19.869
and to culture expressions

2445
01:22:19.870 --> 01:22:21.759
through self-education,

2446
01:22:21.760 --> 01:22:23.679
collective initiatives

2447
01:22:23.680 --> 01:22:26.139
and public engagement.

2448
01:22:26.140 --> 01:22:28.059
Please help me welcome

2449
01:22:28.060 --> 01:22:29.060
our speakers.

2450
01:22:36.040 --> 01:22:37.390
Thank you Danielle.

2451
01:22:38.590 --> 01:22:40.029
Good afternoon.

2452
01:22:40.030 --> 01:22:42.039
My name is Mel Genre Puerto.

2453
01:22:42.040 --> 01:22:44.109
I'm an artist and I will be

2454
01:22:44.110 --> 01:22:46.359
moderating this panel.

2455
01:22:46.360 --> 01:22:48.729
Here with me is

2456
01:22:48.730 --> 01:22:50.649
Oscar. He's a the

2457
01:22:50.650 --> 01:22:53.529
director of learning and engagement

2458
01:22:53.530 --> 01:22:54.910
at ICA LA.

2459
01:22:56.230 --> 01:22:57.230
And.

2460
01:23:00.550 --> 01:23:01.629
Next, next.

2461
01:23:01.630 --> 01:23:03.489
Here is Carolina

2462
01:23:03.490 --> 01:23:05.289
Kizito, artist.

2463
01:23:06.670 --> 01:23:07.670
And.

2464
01:23:09.730 --> 01:23:11.779
And then Pablo Hussein

2465
01:23:11.780 --> 01:23:13.719
Ramirez, a curator

2466
01:23:13.720 --> 01:23:14.720
here at the hammer.

2467
01:23:18.100 --> 01:23:20.109
And at the end

2468
01:23:20.110 --> 01:23:21.699
is Walid Basti.

2469
01:23:21.700 --> 01:23:22.700
Artist.

2470
01:23:26.860 --> 01:23:27.860
Okay.

2471
01:23:29.200 --> 01:23:31.299
I'd like to spend the next

2472
01:23:31.300 --> 01:23:33.459
hour together talking

2473
01:23:33.460 --> 01:23:35.499
about our projects and

2474
01:23:35.500 --> 01:23:37.119
having a conversation about how

2475
01:23:37.120 --> 01:23:39.129
change can happen through

2476
01:23:39.130 --> 01:23:40.130
through our work.

2477
01:23:42.070 --> 01:23:44.049
Realism is the language of

2478
01:23:44.050 --> 01:23:45.639
entrenched power.

2479
01:23:45.640 --> 01:23:47.199
Anything beyond what exists in

2480
01:23:47.200 --> 01:23:48.850
reality. We have to dream

2481
01:23:49.990 --> 01:23:51.669
a project. Spending too much

2482
01:23:51.670 --> 01:23:53.889
attention in dealing with reality

2483
01:23:53.890 --> 01:23:55.599
affirms that reality.

2484
01:23:55.600 --> 01:23:57.579
But a project that spends too much

2485
01:23:57.580 --> 01:23:59.409
attention and dreaming stays in the

2486
01:23:59.410 --> 01:24:00.410
dreaming.

2487
01:24:01.000 --> 01:24:03.129
As we develop projects that push

2488
01:24:03.130 --> 01:24:04.089
for change.

2489
01:24:04.090 --> 01:24:06.069
We must keep in mind that

2490
01:24:06.070 --> 01:24:08.079
these projects must always

2491
01:24:08.080 --> 01:24:10.029
account for both the world we have

2492
01:24:10.030 --> 01:24:11.859
inherited and the imagined

2493
01:24:11.860 --> 01:24:13.959
world that we want to bring

2494
01:24:13.960 --> 01:24:15.429
to being.

2495
01:24:15.430 --> 01:24:17.259
It is imperative that we answer

2496
01:24:17.260 --> 01:24:19.749
the question of how to co-opt spaces

2497
01:24:19.750 --> 01:24:21.759
in reality, and how

2498
01:24:21.760 --> 01:24:23.739
to fill it with our imagined world.

2499
01:24:24.790 --> 01:24:26.769
And so, during our talk today,

2500
01:24:26.770 --> 01:24:29.589
I'd like to I'd like our panelists

2501
01:24:29.590 --> 01:24:31.479
to talk about where they think we're

2502
01:24:31.480 --> 01:24:33.369
at and

2503
01:24:33.370 --> 01:24:36.219
where they think we should be going.

2504
01:24:36.220 --> 01:24:37.799
And I'd like to ask them to

2505
01:24:37.800 --> 01:24:39.659
articulate the trajectory, that

2506
01:24:39.660 --> 01:24:41.999
trajectory through their respective

2507
01:24:42.000 --> 01:24:43.000
projects.

2508
01:24:44.130 --> 01:24:45.989
So we're going to start

2509
01:24:45.990 --> 01:24:46.990
with Oscar.

2510
01:24:49.170 --> 01:24:50.170
Okay. Yeah.

2511
01:24:51.600 --> 01:24:53.009
Thank you John.

2512
01:24:53.010 --> 01:24:54.629
That was beautiful.

2513
01:24:54.630 --> 01:24:56.699
And thanks to Danielle and

2514
01:24:56.700 --> 01:24:58.619
the hammer team for inviting

2515
01:24:58.620 --> 01:25:00.569
me to discuss something that is near

2516
01:25:00.570 --> 01:25:02.850
and dear artists and education.

2517
01:25:05.070 --> 01:25:06.989
I've done many, many, many, many,

2518
01:25:06.990 --> 01:25:09.119
many years of museum public

2519
01:25:09.120 --> 01:25:11.069
programing, from talks

2520
01:25:11.070 --> 01:25:13.019
to gallery tours to workshops

2521
01:25:13.020 --> 01:25:14.909
to special participatory

2522
01:25:14.910 --> 01:25:16.859
projects for the young to

2523
01:25:16.860 --> 01:25:17.999
the mature.

2524
01:25:18.000 --> 01:25:20.459
And nothing excites me more

2525
01:25:20.460 --> 01:25:22.439
than striving for

2526
01:25:22.440 --> 01:25:24.389
the a typical

2527
01:25:24.390 --> 01:25:26.459
and a good time.

2528
01:25:26.460 --> 01:25:28.349
And as Steve said

2529
01:25:28.350 --> 01:25:31.439
earlier, depth education.

2530
01:25:31.440 --> 01:25:33.329
When a program hits the goals of

2531
01:25:33.330 --> 01:25:35.189
learning and engagement

2532
01:25:35.190 --> 01:25:37.049
and is atypical.

2533
01:25:37.050 --> 01:25:39.299
It is the result of a synergy

2534
01:25:39.300 --> 01:25:40.769
of making.

2535
01:25:40.770 --> 01:25:42.629
Making something happen

2536
01:25:42.630 --> 01:25:45.119
and making learning happen.

2537
01:25:45.120 --> 01:25:46.979
I have an artist background,

2538
01:25:46.980 --> 01:25:49.169
so the feeling of making is a big

2539
01:25:49.170 --> 01:25:51.359
part of the process

2540
01:25:51.360 --> 01:25:53.279
and doing it in collaboration with

2541
01:25:53.280 --> 01:25:55.139
others artists,

2542
01:25:55.140 --> 01:25:57.329
museum staff, community

2543
01:25:57.330 --> 01:25:59.279
members and a whole range

2544
01:25:59.280 --> 01:26:01.169
of folks whom I, I bet

2545
01:26:01.170 --> 01:26:02.699
also have an artist background

2546
01:26:02.700 --> 01:26:04.469
because they get it.

2547
01:26:04.470 --> 01:26:05.970
It is the best

2548
01:26:07.230 --> 01:26:08.579
ecology.

2549
01:26:08.580 --> 01:26:10.199
Institute of contemporary Art Los

2550
01:26:10.200 --> 01:26:12.059
Angeles is not the biggest

2551
01:26:12.060 --> 01:26:14.009
museum in town, and my

2552
01:26:14.010 --> 01:26:15.869
department is only comprised

2553
01:26:15.870 --> 01:26:17.519
of two individuals.

2554
01:26:17.520 --> 01:26:18.809
Two.

2555
01:26:18.810 --> 01:26:20.729
But I brag that my

2556
01:26:20.730 --> 01:26:22.799
department is infinite

2557
01:26:22.800 --> 01:26:24.539
as I pull partnerships with the

2558
01:26:24.540 --> 01:26:26.399
community, the city,

2559
01:26:26.400 --> 01:26:27.809
and beyond.

2560
01:26:27.810 --> 01:26:29.819
I'm also fortunate that as a curator

2561
01:26:29.820 --> 01:26:32.429
of programs for over 25 years,

2562
01:26:32.430 --> 01:26:34.409
I've earned some trust.

2563
01:26:34.410 --> 01:26:36.809
Trust is essential.

2564
01:26:36.810 --> 01:26:38.669
And iCarly

2565
01:26:38.670 --> 01:26:40.140
has an incredible mission.

2566
01:26:41.580 --> 01:26:43.409
ICarly mission is

2567
01:26:43.410 --> 01:26:45.359
to support art that sparks

2568
01:26:45.360 --> 01:26:47.699
the pleasure of discovery

2569
01:26:47.700 --> 01:26:49.529
and challenges the way

2570
01:26:49.530 --> 01:26:51.839
we see the world, ourselves,

2571
01:26:51.840 --> 01:26:53.399
and each other.

2572
01:26:53.400 --> 01:26:55.319
ICarly is committed

2573
01:26:55.320 --> 01:26:57.239
to upending hierarchies of

2574
01:26:57.240 --> 01:26:59.099
race, class,

2575
01:26:59.100 --> 01:27:01.559
gender, and culture

2576
01:27:01.560 --> 01:27:03.539
through exhibitions, education

2577
01:27:03.540 --> 01:27:04.829
programs, and community

2578
01:27:04.830 --> 01:27:05.939
partnerships.

2579
01:27:05.940 --> 01:27:08.069
ICarly fosters critique

2580
01:27:08.070 --> 01:27:10.229
of the familiar and empathy

2581
01:27:10.230 --> 01:27:11.550
with the different.

2582
01:27:13.260 --> 01:27:15.479
For this panel, I'd like to describe

2583
01:27:15.480 --> 01:27:17.129
a little about what we did for a

2584
01:27:17.130 --> 01:27:19.109
recent exhibition at iCarly

2585
01:27:19.110 --> 01:27:22.229
titled scratching at the moon.

2586
01:27:22.230 --> 01:27:24.179
Co-curated by artist Anna

2587
01:27:24.180 --> 01:27:26.249
Sue Hoy and iCarly

2588
01:27:26.250 --> 01:27:28.409
is executive director and curator

2589
01:27:28.410 --> 01:27:30.179
and Elgood, whose excellent

2590
01:27:30.180 --> 01:27:32.239
curatorial work happened a lot

2591
01:27:32.240 --> 01:27:34.069
right here at The Hammer.

2592
01:27:35.180 --> 01:27:37.009
The exhibition resulted from

2593
01:27:37.010 --> 01:27:39.139
conversations during the pandemic

2594
01:27:39.140 --> 01:27:41.059
summer of 2020, the

2595
01:27:41.060 --> 01:27:42.829
justice uprisings.

2596
01:27:42.830 --> 01:27:44.509
The growing Black Lives Matter

2597
01:27:44.510 --> 01:27:46.459
movement and increased

2598
01:27:46.460 --> 01:27:49.039
anti-Asian hate.

2599
01:27:49.040 --> 01:27:50.329
Here's part of the exhibition

2600
01:27:50.330 --> 01:27:51.739
description.

2601
01:27:51.740 --> 01:27:53.569
Scratching at the moon is the

2602
01:27:53.570 --> 01:27:55.369
first focused survey of

2603
01:27:55.370 --> 01:27:57.289
Asian-American artists in

2604
01:27:57.290 --> 01:27:59.209
a major Los Angeles contemporary art

2605
01:27:59.210 --> 01:28:00.499
museum.

2606
01:28:00.500 --> 01:28:02.479
The exhibition celebrates the work

2607
01:28:02.480 --> 01:28:04.519
of an intergenerational group of

2608
01:28:04.520 --> 01:28:06.559
13 leading artists

2609
01:28:06.560 --> 01:28:08.719
in the Asian-American community

2610
01:28:08.720 --> 01:28:10.639
whose contributions to culture

2611
01:28:10.640 --> 01:28:12.619
are multiple, ranging

2612
01:28:12.620 --> 01:28:14.299
from their distinctive visual arts

2613
01:28:14.300 --> 01:28:16.219
production to their commitment

2614
01:28:16.220 --> 01:28:18.139
to pedagogy and to

2615
01:28:18.140 --> 01:28:20.779
their dedication to research,

2616
01:28:20.780 --> 01:28:23.899
activism, and community engagement.

2617
01:28:23.900 --> 01:28:25.849
And the featured artists included

2618
01:28:25.850 --> 01:28:27.799
Patty Chang, Young

2619
01:28:27.800 --> 01:28:30.229
Chang, Michel Jack Teo,

2620
01:28:30.230 --> 01:28:32.539
Simon Lung, Michel Lopez,

2621
01:28:32.540 --> 01:28:35.119
Yung soon. Min na Mira.

2622
01:28:35.120 --> 01:28:37.069
Amanda. Ros ho mil.

2623
01:28:37.070 --> 01:28:38.419
John. Roberto.

2624
01:28:38.420 --> 01:28:40.189
Dean. Sam. Ashima.

2625
01:28:40.190 --> 01:28:41.269
Anna. Sui.

2626
01:28:41.270 --> 01:28:42.409
Amy. Yao.

2627
01:28:42.410 --> 01:28:43.640
And Bruce. Yamamoto.

2628
01:28:45.290 --> 01:28:47.569
In addition to and in conversation

2629
01:28:47.570 --> 01:28:49.069
with scratching at the moon, we

2630
01:28:49.070 --> 01:28:50.899
invited Ooga Booga, a

2631
01:28:50.900 --> 01:28:52.789
wonderful art and culture book

2632
01:28:52.790 --> 01:28:54.769
objects entity founded by Wendy

2633
01:28:54.770 --> 01:28:55.969
Yao.

2634
01:28:55.970 --> 01:28:57.709
We invited Booga Booga to be part of

2635
01:28:57.710 --> 01:28:59.719
our bookshelf residency, where

2636
01:28:59.720 --> 01:29:01.579
Ooga Booga celebrated their 20th

2637
01:29:01.580 --> 01:29:03.619
anniversary year with a beautiful

2638
01:29:03.620 --> 01:29:05.599
bookshop on our shelves and three

2639
01:29:05.600 --> 01:29:07.309
mini exhibitions with more

2640
01:29:07.310 --> 01:29:09.709
Asian-Americans Kima

2641
01:29:09.710 --> 01:29:11.719
aka Lauryn Gray Car,

2642
01:29:11.720 --> 01:29:13.789
Misa chan and Maggie

2643
01:29:13.790 --> 01:29:15.289
Lee with Angela Dema.

2644
01:29:15.290 --> 01:29:16.290
Yuga.

2645
01:29:16.850 --> 01:29:18.769
The process of creating programing

2646
01:29:18.770 --> 01:29:20.209
for public engagement in a

2647
01:29:20.210 --> 01:29:21.799
contemporary art museum around an

2648
01:29:21.800 --> 01:29:23.959
exhibition is, as I said,

2649
01:29:23.960 --> 01:29:26.119
making and making things together

2650
01:29:26.120 --> 01:29:28.159
and making things happen.

2651
01:29:28.160 --> 01:29:30.139
And if possible, make it atypical

2652
01:29:30.140 --> 01:29:32.269
and make it a good time and depth

2653
01:29:32.270 --> 01:29:33.799
education.

2654
01:29:33.800 --> 01:29:35.389
This was the first exhibition where

2655
01:29:35.390 --> 01:29:37.819
we decided to extend our exhibition

2656
01:29:37.820 --> 01:29:39.919
periods to about five months,

2657
01:29:39.920 --> 01:29:41.929
instead of 3 to 3 and a half,

2658
01:29:41.930 --> 01:29:43.669
and scratching ended up being six

2659
01:29:43.670 --> 01:29:44.749
months.

2660
01:29:44.750 --> 01:29:47.419
So prior to a show's opening,

2661
01:29:47.420 --> 01:29:49.369
over months, many emails,

2662
01:29:49.370 --> 01:29:52.009
texts, calls, in-person meetings

2663
01:29:52.010 --> 01:29:54.169
and for this one, our general

2664
01:29:54.170 --> 01:29:56.149
extreme enthusiasm

2665
01:29:56.150 --> 01:29:59.179
of having a diasporic Asian moment.

2666
01:29:59.180 --> 01:30:01.609
We planned many programs,

2667
01:30:01.610 --> 01:30:03.259
and it's funny to have a feeling

2668
01:30:03.260 --> 01:30:05.479
like, is it too much Asian

2669
01:30:07.190 --> 01:30:09.109
against what the

2670
01:30:09.110 --> 01:30:10.999
show is Asian, we're Asian,

2671
01:30:11.000 --> 01:30:11.869
this is who we are.

2672
01:30:11.870 --> 01:30:14.209
And I, as an Asian American

2673
01:30:15.440 --> 01:30:17.329
who works in the museum world, was

2674
01:30:17.330 --> 01:30:18.350
very excited.

2675
01:30:19.460 --> 01:30:21.139
So between scratching at the moon,

2676
01:30:21.140 --> 01:30:23.119
ooga booga, we had a number

2677
01:30:23.120 --> 01:30:25.249
of programs a week for six months,

2678
01:30:25.250 --> 01:30:27.549
not including our other family days,

2679
01:30:27.550 --> 01:30:29.529
Teen Fellowship, and other monthly

2680
01:30:29.530 --> 01:30:31.899
things like intro to ESL,

2681
01:30:31.900 --> 01:30:33.459
which we had begun in collaboration

2682
01:30:33.460 --> 01:30:35.139
in conjunction with our Christine

2683
01:30:35.140 --> 01:30:36.879
Son Kim project.

2684
01:30:36.880 --> 01:30:38.589
We had our panel discussions,

2685
01:30:38.590 --> 01:30:41.109
lectures, but we also had Mahjong

2686
01:30:41.110 --> 01:30:43.359
Ping Pong, an AAPI

2687
01:30:43.360 --> 01:30:46.479
arts network convening with a major

2688
01:30:46.480 --> 01:30:49.179
Asian food potluck,

2689
01:30:49.180 --> 01:30:51.789
Asian candy performances,

2690
01:30:51.790 --> 01:30:53.889
bringing Simon Lung and Nami

2691
01:30:53.890 --> 01:30:55.869
Ra out for a beautiful collaborative

2692
01:30:55.870 --> 01:30:56.919
work.

2693
01:30:56.920 --> 01:30:58.899
A subversion of sorts of

2694
01:30:58.900 --> 01:31:01.209
the exhibition by the FAC Extra

2695
01:31:01.210 --> 01:31:02.210
Retreat

2696
01:31:03.070 --> 01:31:05.259
Collective with Anna Sue Hoy, I

2697
01:31:05.260 --> 01:31:07.359
Arakawa, Amy Yao, Shirley Tay,

2698
01:31:07.360 --> 01:31:09.819
Amanda Russell and Pearl Shen

2699
01:31:09.820 --> 01:31:12.009
using utility carts and endless

2700
01:31:12.010 --> 01:31:13.899
extension cords all over

2701
01:31:13.900 --> 01:31:15.939
and projectors to project and

2702
01:31:15.940 --> 01:31:17.949
overlay images of work by

2703
01:31:17.950 --> 01:31:19.899
Asian-American artist forebears.

2704
01:31:19.900 --> 01:31:21.939
On top of the works in

2705
01:31:21.940 --> 01:31:23.469
scratching at the moon.

2706
01:31:23.470 --> 01:31:24.669
And people could go up to these

2707
01:31:24.670 --> 01:31:26.559
artists next to their utility carts

2708
01:31:26.560 --> 01:31:28.029
and ask questions.

2709
01:31:28.030 --> 01:31:29.739
Atypical.

2710
01:31:29.740 --> 01:31:31.329
We added a panel discussion at the

2711
01:31:31.330 --> 01:31:33.189
end to discuss race and identity

2712
01:31:33.190 --> 01:31:34.839
based exhibitions, as we realized

2713
01:31:34.840 --> 01:31:36.099
that there were several happening in

2714
01:31:36.100 --> 01:31:38.019
LA at the same time, and

2715
01:31:38.020 --> 01:31:39.849
thus we created a new curatorial

2716
01:31:39.850 --> 01:31:42.099
based curatorial practice

2717
01:31:42.100 --> 01:31:44.199
based program titled A Closer Look.

2718
01:31:44.200 --> 01:31:46.149
We did so much, we just couldn't

2719
01:31:46.150 --> 01:31:48.009
help ourselves, and it

2720
01:31:48.010 --> 01:31:49.869
was good times.

2721
01:31:49.870 --> 01:31:51.279
So a beautiful thing about an

2722
01:31:51.280 --> 01:31:53.109
extended exhibition period of six

2723
01:31:53.110 --> 01:31:54.999
months, we were able to program

2724
01:31:55.000 --> 01:31:57.279
in new ideas that responded

2725
01:31:57.280 --> 01:31:58.929
to people's reactions to the

2726
01:31:58.930 --> 01:32:00.909
exhibition, or

2727
01:32:00.910 --> 01:32:03.039
through deep learning about

2728
01:32:03.040 --> 01:32:05.169
ourselves, of what this exhibition

2729
01:32:05.170 --> 01:32:07.059
meant in real time,

2730
01:32:07.060 --> 01:32:09.189
allowed us to propose ideas

2731
01:32:09.190 --> 01:32:11.139
forward that weren't in

2732
01:32:11.140 --> 01:32:13.119
the original plan, which made us

2733
01:32:13.120 --> 01:32:15.069
a space for listening and

2734
01:32:15.070 --> 01:32:17.529
receiving and processing

2735
01:32:17.530 --> 01:32:18.530
and responding.

2736
01:32:19.510 --> 01:32:21.759
Sadly, our reality right now

2737
01:32:21.760 --> 01:32:23.919
feels like we are under siege

2738
01:32:23.920 --> 01:32:25.959
with relentless forms of hate.

2739
01:32:25.960 --> 01:32:28.539
Intolerance and aggression.

2740
01:32:28.540 --> 01:32:30.429
I imagine work these days

2741
01:32:30.430 --> 01:32:32.409
to always have an activist

2742
01:32:32.410 --> 01:32:35.379
element with the world collapsing,

2743
01:32:35.380 --> 01:32:37.449
imploding and burning

2744
01:32:37.450 --> 01:32:38.229
up.

2745
01:32:38.230 --> 01:32:41.289
Is it okay to have a good time?

2746
01:32:41.290 --> 01:32:43.389
If anything, we have to fight for

2747
01:32:43.390 --> 01:32:44.499
justice.

2748
01:32:44.500 --> 01:32:46.449
Be atypical and

2749
01:32:46.450 --> 01:32:47.589
bring the good times.

2750
01:32:52.810 --> 01:32:53.810
Thank you. Oscar.

2751
01:32:55.480 --> 01:32:56.480
Karolina.

2752
01:32:58.390 --> 01:32:59.529
Okay, I'm going to do something

2753
01:32:59.530 --> 01:33:00.879
atypical.

2754
01:33:00.880 --> 01:33:01.659
Let's stand up.

2755
01:33:01.660 --> 01:33:03.099
Everyone, please.

2756
01:33:03.100 --> 01:33:05.139
Yes, let's stand up

2757
01:33:05.140 --> 01:33:06.140
and.

2758
01:33:07.060 --> 01:33:08.379
Yes, if you want.

2759
01:33:08.380 --> 01:33:09.999
Nobody has to stand up if you don't

2760
01:33:10.000 --> 01:33:11.319
want to. So if you want to say it,

2761
01:33:11.320 --> 01:33:12.489
you can say it.

2762
01:33:12.490 --> 01:33:14.529
You don't have to. I'm not going to

2763
01:33:14.530 --> 01:33:16.569
oblige anyone.

2764
01:33:16.570 --> 01:33:17.919
And, yeah.

2765
01:33:17.920 --> 01:33:19.959
Put your two feet on the ground

2766
01:33:19.960 --> 01:33:21.879
to feel where we are.

2767
01:33:21.880 --> 01:33:23.669
Not only us. I think it's a question

2768
01:33:23.670 --> 01:33:25.289
that is relevant for all of us where

2769
01:33:25.290 --> 01:33:26.249
we are.

2770
01:33:26.250 --> 01:33:28.589
So let's feel one foot

2771
01:33:28.590 --> 01:33:30.839
in Westwood, right

2772
01:33:30.840 --> 01:33:32.909
where we are, and then imagine

2773
01:33:32.910 --> 01:33:35.219
your other foot where you're from.

2774
01:33:35.220 --> 01:33:36.839
I'm going to imagine my foot goes

2775
01:33:36.840 --> 01:33:37.949
all the way to Colombia

2776
01:33:39.090 --> 01:33:40.979
and imagine where your other

2777
01:33:40.980 --> 01:33:42.029
foot is.

2778
01:33:42.030 --> 01:33:43.679
Maybe it's another neighborhood in

2779
01:33:43.680 --> 01:33:46.289
L.A., maybe it's East L.A.,

2780
01:33:46.290 --> 01:33:48.149
maybe it's Guatemala,

2781
01:33:48.150 --> 01:33:49.409
maybe it's China.

2782
01:33:49.410 --> 01:33:50.610
What part of China?

2783
01:33:52.140 --> 01:33:54.179
And think that we are bridges

2784
01:33:54.180 --> 01:33:56.399
between these two places, Westwood,

2785
01:33:56.400 --> 01:33:58.469
L.A. and whatever that place is

2786
01:33:58.470 --> 01:34:00.419
and what's our responsibility?

2787
01:34:00.420 --> 01:34:02.669
As Porfirio was calling

2788
01:34:02.670 --> 01:34:04.649
in his kidnap a keynote

2789
01:34:04.650 --> 01:34:05.699
lecture.

2790
01:34:05.700 --> 01:34:07.049
Being an artist is not just a

2791
01:34:07.050 --> 01:34:08.399
certification, but it's a

2792
01:34:08.400 --> 01:34:10.349
responsibility to bridge those

2793
01:34:10.350 --> 01:34:12.329
two places, to connect those

2794
01:34:12.330 --> 01:34:14.219
two places and to

2795
01:34:14.220 --> 01:34:16.019
connect to the people.

2796
01:34:16.020 --> 01:34:17.999
That's besides you, too.

2797
01:34:18.000 --> 01:34:20.099
So find the body that's closer

2798
01:34:20.100 --> 01:34:21.989
to you and support that

2799
01:34:21.990 --> 01:34:22.990
body.

2800
01:34:25.140 --> 01:34:27.179
Support. Support each other

2801
01:34:27.180 --> 01:34:28.589
so that we don't feel lonely.

2802
01:34:28.590 --> 01:34:30.569
Like that student that triggered

2803
01:34:30.570 --> 01:34:32.429
me and made me cry.

2804
01:34:32.430 --> 01:34:34.109
Like I don't see if he's in the in

2805
01:34:34.110 --> 01:34:35.939
the audience again, but

2806
01:34:35.940 --> 01:34:36.940
yeah.

2807
01:34:37.920 --> 01:34:40.079
And so something sometimes

2808
01:34:40.080 --> 01:34:42.389
a very simple gesture can

2809
01:34:42.390 --> 01:34:44.279
make us feel better, can

2810
01:34:44.280 --> 01:34:46.589
make us see

2811
01:34:46.590 --> 01:34:48.479
and understand the moment

2812
01:34:48.480 --> 01:34:50.669
we live in in a different way too.

2813
01:34:51.750 --> 01:34:53.159
So sometimes it's just about

2814
01:34:53.160 --> 01:34:54.810
shifting that perspective and.

2815
01:34:56.910 --> 01:34:59.789
Taking a deep breath and like

2816
01:34:59.790 --> 01:35:01.799
making a little

2817
01:35:01.800 --> 01:35:03.989
shake that you can do to

2818
01:35:03.990 --> 01:35:05.429
shake it, shake it.

2819
01:35:05.430 --> 01:35:07.199
There's a song right then.

2820
01:35:09.240 --> 01:35:10.889
Okay. But I wanted to say that

2821
01:35:10.890 --> 01:35:11.890
because.

2822
01:35:13.830 --> 01:35:15.659
I think one

2823
01:35:15.660 --> 01:35:17.849
of the things that bridge reality

2824
01:35:17.850 --> 01:35:20.609
and imagination for me, is the body

2825
01:35:20.610 --> 01:35:22.619
and our experiences and

2826
01:35:22.620 --> 01:35:24.149
the embodied knowledge that we

2827
01:35:24.150 --> 01:35:26.669
carry. Yes, we are all.

2828
01:35:26.670 --> 01:35:27.989
Maybe some of us has gone through

2829
01:35:27.990 --> 01:35:29.859
academic training and that gives us

2830
01:35:29.860 --> 01:35:31.679
certification.

2831
01:35:31.680 --> 01:35:33.869
But regardless, if we pass

2832
01:35:33.870 --> 01:35:35.729
through a classroom at any level

2833
01:35:35.730 --> 01:35:37.829
or not, we do carry

2834
01:35:37.830 --> 01:35:38.819
embodied knowledge.

2835
01:35:38.820 --> 01:35:40.349
We have inherited all sorts of

2836
01:35:40.350 --> 01:35:42.359
knowledge from our family

2837
01:35:42.360 --> 01:35:44.499
members, from our our,

2838
01:35:44.500 --> 01:35:46.499
our grandmothers and mothers.

2839
01:35:46.500 --> 01:35:47.969
Our cousins are sisters, our

2840
01:35:47.970 --> 01:35:50.099
grandfathers, and

2841
01:35:50.100 --> 01:35:51.719
we carry that memory and our

2842
01:35:51.720 --> 01:35:52.559
muscles.

2843
01:35:52.560 --> 01:35:54.659
And I think what's

2844
01:35:54.660 --> 01:35:56.069
happening today is that they want to

2845
01:35:56.070 --> 01:35:57.899
disconnect us from this memory.

2846
01:35:57.900 --> 01:35:59.549
They want to make the embodiment of

2847
01:35:59.550 --> 01:36:01.679
this memory illegal or delinquent.

2848
01:36:01.680 --> 01:36:03.959
We have moved across this continent

2849
01:36:03.960 --> 01:36:06.209
forever, for since time immemorial,

2850
01:36:06.210 --> 01:36:08.069
we have moved across continents for

2851
01:36:08.070 --> 01:36:10.229
ever since time immemorial.

2852
01:36:10.230 --> 01:36:11.339
And they want to

2853
01:36:13.110 --> 01:36:15.089
make us believe that this

2854
01:36:15.090 --> 01:36:16.649
is something recent, that this

2855
01:36:16.650 --> 01:36:18.079
should not be happening.

2856
01:36:18.080 --> 01:36:20.179
So we should remember

2857
01:36:20.180 --> 01:36:22.249
like what are the mechanisms we

2858
01:36:22.250 --> 01:36:23.270
have to remember.

2859
01:36:24.950 --> 01:36:26.719
Can this also mention that how

2860
01:36:26.720 --> 01:36:29.149
important is to know our histories

2861
01:36:29.150 --> 01:36:31.279
so that we don't repeat violences

2862
01:36:31.280 --> 01:36:32.659
that are in those histories?

2863
01:36:34.400 --> 01:36:36.529
So the embodiment of knowledge

2864
01:36:36.530 --> 01:36:39.019
is an important part of me.

2865
01:36:39.020 --> 01:36:41.209
It's where I believe

2866
01:36:41.210 --> 01:36:42.889
I want to route my practice and

2867
01:36:42.890 --> 01:36:43.969
where I'm trying to root my

2868
01:36:43.970 --> 01:36:46.399
practice. And also that moment of

2869
01:36:46.400 --> 01:36:48.079
generating spaces for the

2870
01:36:48.080 --> 01:36:50.149
construction of collective bodies to

2871
01:36:50.150 --> 01:36:51.799
like that little moment that we had

2872
01:36:51.800 --> 01:36:53.359
where we were just all standing at

2873
01:36:53.360 --> 01:36:55.279
the same time and feeling

2874
01:36:55.280 --> 01:36:57.679
the place with our feet and

2875
01:36:57.680 --> 01:36:58.789
holding each other.

2876
01:36:58.790 --> 01:37:00.079
This little moment that we

2877
01:37:00.080 --> 01:37:02.119
constructed this collective body

2878
01:37:02.120 --> 01:37:03.439
in this room.

2879
01:37:03.440 --> 01:37:04.819
Yeah. That's the kind of things that

2880
01:37:04.820 --> 01:37:05.930
I'm invested in.

2881
01:37:10.460 --> 01:37:11.269
Thank you.

2882
01:37:11.270 --> 01:37:12.270
Carolina.

2883
01:37:13.640 --> 01:37:14.640
Pablo.

2884
01:37:16.160 --> 01:37:16.939
Hi.

2885
01:37:16.940 --> 01:37:17.749
Yeah. Can you hear me?

2886
01:37:17.750 --> 01:37:18.750
Okay.

2887
01:37:20.480 --> 01:37:21.919
Well, thank you for the invitation,

2888
01:37:21.920 --> 01:37:23.869
Danielle. And to, like, a

2889
01:37:23.870 --> 01:37:25.759
big shout out to the amazing

2890
01:37:25.760 --> 01:37:27.499
public programs team here at the

2891
01:37:27.500 --> 01:37:28.500
hammer.

2892
01:37:28.940 --> 01:37:30.859
I'm gonna try to

2893
01:37:30.860 --> 01:37:32.839
do something like, what, seven, ten

2894
01:37:32.840 --> 01:37:33.840
minutes.

2895
01:37:34.520 --> 01:37:35.719
And just think about.

2896
01:37:35.720 --> 01:37:37.669
Because there's a couple of

2897
01:37:37.670 --> 01:37:39.469
ideas that have been kind of popping

2898
01:37:39.470 --> 01:37:40.429
up.

2899
01:37:40.430 --> 01:37:42.319
One is identity, and

2900
01:37:42.320 --> 01:37:44.299
the other is kind of like the

2901
01:37:44.300 --> 01:37:45.589
sort of like current kind of

2902
01:37:45.590 --> 01:37:46.590
political

2903
01:37:48.260 --> 01:37:49.260
situation.

2904
01:37:51.260 --> 01:37:53.269
And going back to your comment

2905
01:37:53.270 --> 01:37:55.369
about reality

2906
01:37:55.370 --> 01:37:56.839
that make me think of

2907
01:37:58.040 --> 01:37:59.839
the late Mark Fisher.

2908
01:37:59.840 --> 01:38:01.399
He wrote this book called Capitalist

2909
01:38:01.400 --> 01:38:03.319
Realism, and in

2910
01:38:03.320 --> 01:38:04.789
the book it's a very, very tiny

2911
01:38:04.790 --> 01:38:05.689
book.

2912
01:38:05.690 --> 01:38:07.529
Mark speaks about, like, how

2913
01:38:07.530 --> 01:38:09.499
is that capitalism is actually kind

2914
01:38:09.500 --> 01:38:11.689
of like engineering

2915
01:38:11.690 --> 01:38:14.289
realities, and the problem is not

2916
01:38:14.290 --> 01:38:16.479
reality itself as been

2917
01:38:16.480 --> 01:38:17.289
capitalism.

2918
01:38:17.290 --> 01:38:18.849
But the problem is that it's sort of

2919
01:38:18.850 --> 01:38:20.919
like kind of kidnaps

2920
01:38:20.920 --> 01:38:23.169
our cognitive capacity

2921
01:38:23.170 --> 01:38:24.339
to imagine.

2922
01:38:24.340 --> 01:38:26.229
So the

2923
01:38:26.230 --> 01:38:28.239
whole thing with capitalist

2924
01:38:28.240 --> 01:38:30.309
realism is the kidnaping

2925
01:38:30.310 --> 01:38:32.109
of our kind of capacity for

2926
01:38:32.110 --> 01:38:33.609
imagination.

2927
01:38:33.610 --> 01:38:34.899
And I guess that in a way, that's

2928
01:38:34.900 --> 01:38:36.759
where, you know, arts,

2929
01:38:36.760 --> 01:38:38.649
writing, literature and many other

2930
01:38:38.650 --> 01:38:40.509
creative practices come to

2931
01:38:40.510 --> 01:38:41.949
play a role.

2932
01:38:41.950 --> 01:38:43.209
The second thing I just wanted to

2933
01:38:43.210 --> 01:38:45.489
mention very briefly is that

2934
01:38:45.490 --> 01:38:46.929
the way we think about and I'm

2935
01:38:46.930 --> 01:38:48.249
speaking here, I guess, as a

2936
01:38:48.250 --> 01:38:49.329
curator, is that

2937
01:38:50.410 --> 01:38:52.359
museums are

2938
01:38:52.360 --> 01:38:54.609
somehow still acting under

2939
01:38:54.610 --> 01:38:57.159
some kind of like, neoliberal ethos.

2940
01:38:57.160 --> 01:38:59.049
And neoliberalism,

2941
01:38:59.050 --> 01:39:00.969
as we know it is a system

2942
01:39:00.970 --> 01:39:02.560
of governance, of difference

2943
01:39:03.940 --> 01:39:06.549
and difference

2944
01:39:06.550 --> 01:39:07.809
in relation to identity.

2945
01:39:07.810 --> 01:39:10.509
So when we speak about identity,

2946
01:39:10.510 --> 01:39:12.369
I mean, I guess we

2947
01:39:12.370 --> 01:39:14.679
need more an expanded vocabulary

2948
01:39:14.680 --> 01:39:16.269
to see how we can think about these

2949
01:39:16.270 --> 01:39:18.369
and write and

2950
01:39:18.370 --> 01:39:19.839
kind of create discourse around

2951
01:39:19.840 --> 01:39:21.189
these things.

2952
01:39:21.190 --> 01:39:23.139
In the case of museums, in

2953
01:39:23.140 --> 01:39:25.089
the in 1989, with the fall

2954
01:39:25.090 --> 01:39:26.090
of the Berlin Wall,

2955
01:39:27.520 --> 01:39:29.229
a kind of like a sort of new moment

2956
01:39:29.230 --> 01:39:30.939
of celebration of diversity came to

2957
01:39:30.940 --> 01:39:33.009
place, and the so-called global

2958
01:39:33.010 --> 01:39:35.169
museums worldwide started to

2959
01:39:35.170 --> 01:39:37.089
decentralize their collections,

2960
01:39:37.090 --> 01:39:38.679
look at different regions Southeast

2961
01:39:38.680 --> 01:39:41.499
Asia, Latin America,

2962
01:39:41.500 --> 01:39:43.479
etc., Africa,

2963
01:39:43.480 --> 01:39:44.889
the Central Asian acquisition

2964
01:39:44.890 --> 01:39:46.599
communities, etcetera, etcetera.

2965
01:39:46.600 --> 01:39:48.429
So it is not by chance

2966
01:39:48.430 --> 01:39:50.589
that in the 90s and like three

2967
01:39:50.590 --> 01:39:52.869
decades later, we are,

2968
01:39:54.070 --> 01:39:56.379
you know, somehow able

2969
01:39:56.380 --> 01:39:58.329
to have these type of conversations.

2970
01:39:58.330 --> 01:40:00.429
So one of the paradoxes is that

2971
01:40:00.430 --> 01:40:02.499
on one hand, museums have

2972
01:40:02.500 --> 01:40:04.689
a more diverse representation

2973
01:40:04.690 --> 01:40:06.399
of artists from around the world.

2974
01:40:06.400 --> 01:40:08.139
The collections are I mean, there is

2975
01:40:08.140 --> 01:40:09.969
a lot to do still there, but the

2976
01:40:09.970 --> 01:40:12.099
collections somehow are also

2977
01:40:12.100 --> 01:40:13.929
representative of the sort

2978
01:40:13.930 --> 01:40:16.629
of like, quote unquote diversity.

2979
01:40:16.630 --> 01:40:19.239
But in a way,

2980
01:40:19.240 --> 01:40:21.069
we still thinking and

2981
01:40:21.070 --> 01:40:23.350
acting with regards to,

2982
01:40:24.850 --> 01:40:27.249
let's say, a neoliberal ethos.

2983
01:40:27.250 --> 01:40:29.619
So neoliberalism is expression

2984
01:40:29.620 --> 01:40:31.389
of this sort of multiplicity of

2985
01:40:31.390 --> 01:40:33.759
identities, while at the same time

2986
01:40:33.760 --> 01:40:35.409
reaffirms a sort of like

2987
01:40:35.410 --> 01:40:38.169
universalizing white mind.

2988
01:40:38.170 --> 01:40:40.389
And so when we think about identity,

2989
01:40:40.390 --> 01:40:42.249
going back to this kind of

2990
01:40:42.250 --> 01:40:44.169
like the paradox here, is that

2991
01:40:44.170 --> 01:40:45.999
the more we speak about diversity

2992
01:40:46.000 --> 01:40:48.009
and identity within museums, the

2993
01:40:48.010 --> 01:40:50.049
more at the same time we

2994
01:40:50.050 --> 01:40:51.939
reaffirm the

2995
01:40:51.940 --> 01:40:54.129
centrality of contemporary

2996
01:40:54.130 --> 01:40:55.869
art as a canon that is somehow

2997
01:40:55.870 --> 01:40:57.339
controlled by some kind of, you

2998
01:40:57.340 --> 01:40:59.259
know, let's say, white subjectivity.

2999
01:40:59.260 --> 01:41:00.549
So why is that?

3000
01:41:00.550 --> 01:41:02.469
For instance, if I am a white

3001
01:41:02.470 --> 01:41:04.449
race, I have the

3002
01:41:04.450 --> 01:41:06.369
right to not speak about my

3003
01:41:06.370 --> 01:41:08.409
own identity because whiteness can

3004
01:41:08.410 --> 01:41:10.259
claim universalism.

3005
01:41:10.260 --> 01:41:12.479
Well, you know, Latin America

3006
01:41:12.480 --> 01:41:13.679
and Indigenous had said they don't

3007
01:41:13.680 --> 01:41:15.419
have to speak about their identity

3008
01:41:15.420 --> 01:41:16.439
all the time.

3009
01:41:16.440 --> 01:41:18.269
And I think Paul was, in a

3010
01:41:18.270 --> 01:41:19.949
way also referring to this.

3011
01:41:19.950 --> 01:41:20.950
So

3012
01:41:21.810 --> 01:41:23.789
I guess kind of like my point with

3013
01:41:23.790 --> 01:41:26.099
this is like kind of like question

3014
01:41:26.100 --> 01:41:28.019
what how from we think

3015
01:41:28.020 --> 01:41:29.429
curatorial practice, we can think

3016
01:41:29.430 --> 01:41:31.469
about other sort of engagement

3017
01:41:31.470 --> 01:41:34.289
with what we would call difference.

3018
01:41:34.290 --> 01:41:36.239
And, and, and you know,

3019
01:41:36.240 --> 01:41:38.159
kind of like thinking about like

3020
01:41:38.160 --> 01:41:40.379
forms of, I guess,

3021
01:41:40.380 --> 01:41:41.850
intersectionality and so on.

3022
01:41:43.620 --> 01:41:45.599
The last thing that

3023
01:41:45.600 --> 01:41:47.849
I would just briefly say is,

3024
01:41:47.850 --> 01:41:49.739
as I see it, one of the answers

3025
01:41:49.740 --> 01:41:51.149
is kind of going back to the art

3026
01:41:51.150 --> 01:41:52.150
object.

3027
01:41:53.160 --> 01:41:54.089
So curators.

3028
01:41:54.090 --> 01:41:55.499
Right.

3029
01:41:55.500 --> 01:41:56.309
Translate.

3030
01:41:56.310 --> 01:41:58.109
And most of the times, curators are

3031
01:41:58.110 --> 01:41:59.939
somehow using this kind of weird

3032
01:41:59.940 --> 01:42:01.289
ethnographic language when they're

3033
01:42:01.290 --> 01:42:02.290
speaking about art.

3034
01:42:03.690 --> 01:42:05.669
And let's, for instance, think

3035
01:42:05.670 --> 01:42:07.380
about indigenous contemporary art.

3036
01:42:08.850 --> 01:42:10.199
One of the problems I have, for

3037
01:42:10.200 --> 01:42:12.089
instance, with the idea of learning,

3038
01:42:12.090 --> 01:42:13.979
is that for some reason, now,

3039
01:42:13.980 --> 01:42:15.989
like all of the museums are like

3040
01:42:15.990 --> 01:42:17.879
celebrating indigenous art and,

3041
01:42:17.880 --> 01:42:18.929
you know, thinking what?

3042
01:42:18.930 --> 01:42:20.339
How we can learn about indigenous

3043
01:42:20.340 --> 01:42:21.719
communities, they really know the

3044
01:42:21.720 --> 01:42:23.099
thing, right? Like look at Amazonian

3045
01:42:23.100 --> 01:42:24.419
communities, etc..

3046
01:42:24.420 --> 01:42:26.159
And the thing is that, you know, if

3047
01:42:26.160 --> 01:42:28.199
you think about that carefully,

3048
01:42:28.200 --> 01:42:29.639
it's there is some kind of like are

3049
01:42:29.640 --> 01:42:30.959
continuation of the logic of

3050
01:42:30.960 --> 01:42:33.359
extraction through curatorial

3051
01:42:33.360 --> 01:42:35.399
practice and museum practices.

3052
01:42:35.400 --> 01:42:37.469
So I don't know if the question

3053
01:42:37.470 --> 01:42:39.419
is how we can learn about indigenous

3054
01:42:39.420 --> 01:42:41.099
practices, for instance, or how

3055
01:42:41.100 --> 01:42:42.329
about non-Western artistic

3056
01:42:42.330 --> 01:42:43.319
practices?

3057
01:42:43.320 --> 01:42:45.329
Or there is something else that

3058
01:42:45.330 --> 01:42:47.339
is more about disruption

3059
01:42:47.340 --> 01:42:49.649
in the world, some kind of like

3060
01:42:49.650 --> 01:42:51.689
interruption of kind

3061
01:42:51.690 --> 01:42:53.759
of the sort of universal

3062
01:42:53.760 --> 01:42:55.949
logos or neoliberalism

3063
01:42:55.950 --> 01:42:57.419
in this case.

3064
01:42:57.420 --> 01:42:59.429
And by by that, I mean, and

3065
01:42:59.430 --> 01:43:00.779
I'm just thinking, for instance, of

3066
01:43:00.780 --> 01:43:01.780
this famous

3067
01:43:02.730 --> 01:43:04.739
conference that Gilda Lou gave

3068
01:43:04.740 --> 01:43:06.749
where he was speaking to filmmakers,

3069
01:43:06.750 --> 01:43:08.069
and he was like, art is not about

3070
01:43:08.070 --> 01:43:09.719
communication.

3071
01:43:09.720 --> 01:43:11.549
So I think that there

3072
01:43:11.550 --> 01:43:13.379
is something else going on when we

3073
01:43:13.380 --> 01:43:15.659
see shows and when we look at art

3074
01:43:15.660 --> 01:43:17.159
that is not about learning and it is

3075
01:43:17.160 --> 01:43:18.749
not about communication, but some

3076
01:43:18.750 --> 01:43:20.249
kind of like esthetic experience

3077
01:43:20.250 --> 01:43:22.079
that is not completely cognitive

3078
01:43:22.080 --> 01:43:24.329
and that force is

3079
01:43:24.330 --> 01:43:26.849
somehow deposited in the art object.

3080
01:43:26.850 --> 01:43:28.769
And I don't have the

3081
01:43:28.770 --> 01:43:30.089
answers, but I think that there is

3082
01:43:30.090 --> 01:43:31.949
something about how us

3083
01:43:31.950 --> 01:43:33.869
create or some museums mediate

3084
01:43:33.870 --> 01:43:35.819
and connect to the art object that

3085
01:43:35.820 --> 01:43:37.679
is still very powerful and the

3086
01:43:37.680 --> 01:43:38.489
art object.

3087
01:43:38.490 --> 01:43:39.809
When I say object, I'm not just

3088
01:43:39.810 --> 01:43:40.769
talking, of course, about an a

3089
01:43:40.770 --> 01:43:42.689
sculpture or a painting, but it can

3090
01:43:42.690 --> 01:43:44.639
be an action of performance time.

3091
01:43:44.640 --> 01:43:46.769
There is media, whatever, but

3092
01:43:46.770 --> 01:43:48.059
there is something about that.

3093
01:43:48.060 --> 01:43:50.129
And I guess my

3094
01:43:50.130 --> 01:43:52.349
concern is that the way sometimes

3095
01:43:52.350 --> 01:43:54.779
that we are discussing and building

3096
01:43:54.780 --> 01:43:56.609
mediation with the museum practices

3097
01:43:56.610 --> 01:43:58.529
in relation to non-Western art

3098
01:43:58.530 --> 01:43:59.969
is still a little kind of overly

3099
01:43:59.970 --> 01:44:01.559
mediated sometimes.

3100
01:44:01.560 --> 01:44:02.969
And yeah.

3101
01:44:02.970 --> 01:44:04.789
So I guess what what what

3102
01:44:04.790 --> 01:44:07.249
other practices can we build via

3103
01:44:07.250 --> 01:44:08.250
a question to end with?

3104
01:44:10.430 --> 01:44:11.630
Thanks, Pablo.

3105
01:44:15.470 --> 01:44:17.659
Yeah, this is a good lead

3106
01:44:17.660 --> 01:44:19.549
up to while Leads

3107
01:44:19.550 --> 01:44:20.689
project.

3108
01:44:20.690 --> 01:44:21.829
Is it? Yes.

3109
01:44:24.800 --> 01:44:25.800
So

3110
01:44:27.200 --> 01:44:28.550
I think that, you know,

3111
01:44:30.170 --> 01:44:31.219
I wasn't really sure what I was

3112
01:44:31.220 --> 01:44:32.509
going to say, and I'm still not sure

3113
01:44:32.510 --> 01:44:33.589
what I'm going to say.

3114
01:44:33.590 --> 01:44:35.509
And what I will

3115
01:44:35.510 --> 01:44:37.489
start by saying is that I,

3116
01:44:37.490 --> 01:44:38.569
I talked for about

3117
01:44:39.630 --> 01:44:41.479
been teaching for like 22 years.

3118
01:44:41.480 --> 01:44:42.620
I started teaching

3119
01:44:43.910 --> 01:44:45.799
when I was 24

3120
01:44:45.800 --> 01:44:47.420
at UCLA here.

3121
01:44:48.560 --> 01:44:49.909
So I've thought about it a lot.

3122
01:44:49.910 --> 01:44:52.279
And always the idea of an artist

3123
01:44:52.280 --> 01:44:54.139
was always inextricable from

3124
01:44:54.140 --> 01:44:55.729
that and the idea of teaching,

3125
01:44:56.810 --> 01:44:58.699
and that the

3126
01:44:58.700 --> 01:45:00.409
notion of communing or coming

3127
01:45:00.410 --> 01:45:02.299
together, communication has a root

3128
01:45:02.300 --> 01:45:03.799
route in coming together, right?

3129
01:45:03.800 --> 01:45:04.800
Communion.

3130
01:45:06.380 --> 01:45:08.209
This idea of being in the

3131
01:45:08.210 --> 01:45:10.339
same place or creating

3132
01:45:10.340 --> 01:45:12.319
mechanisms to produce a commons.

3133
01:45:12.320 --> 01:45:14.329
And I think so,

3134
01:45:14.330 --> 01:45:16.009
one of the things that sort of

3135
01:45:16.010 --> 01:45:17.749
occurs to me, or I was thinking

3136
01:45:17.750 --> 01:45:19.729
about while we're discussing this,

3137
01:45:19.730 --> 01:45:21.679
is that oftentimes

3138
01:45:21.680 --> 01:45:23.689
you can't name a specific form

3139
01:45:23.690 --> 01:45:24.469
of commons.

3140
01:45:24.470 --> 01:45:26.329
But what sort of got emphasized by

3141
01:45:26.330 --> 01:45:28.489
both of your presentations was

3142
01:45:28.490 --> 01:45:30.349
this notion, this notion

3143
01:45:30.350 --> 01:45:32.539
of the unsayable version of it,

3144
01:45:32.540 --> 01:45:34.519
which is sensorial experience,

3145
01:45:34.520 --> 01:45:36.019
which is what brings people together

3146
01:45:36.020 --> 01:45:37.849
around the sharing

3147
01:45:37.850 --> 01:45:40.099
of a kind of ability to experience

3148
01:45:40.100 --> 01:45:41.179
something and have that be a

3149
01:45:41.180 --> 01:45:42.559
framework.

3150
01:45:42.560 --> 01:45:44.509
And that in

3151
01:45:44.510 --> 01:45:46.579
a lot of cases, the enemy of

3152
01:45:46.580 --> 01:45:47.749
something like that, I don't want to

3153
01:45:47.750 --> 01:45:49.069
say enemy, but like one of the

3154
01:45:49.070 --> 01:45:50.719
things that is a restriction on it.

3155
01:45:50.720 --> 01:45:52.579
And one of the dangers, I

3156
01:45:52.580 --> 01:45:54.079
think, that often pops up in

3157
01:45:54.080 --> 01:45:56.239
everyone's head when they hear

3158
01:45:56.240 --> 01:45:58.069
discussions of diaspora

3159
01:45:58.070 --> 01:45:59.540
decolonization

3160
01:46:00.860 --> 01:46:02.899
Is, is this re bracketing

3161
01:46:02.900 --> 01:46:04.399
of difference within a set of

3162
01:46:04.400 --> 01:46:06.289
taxonomies that are also

3163
01:46:06.290 --> 01:46:08.629
reduplication of the notion of law,

3164
01:46:08.630 --> 01:46:11.629
of order, of institutionalization,

3165
01:46:11.630 --> 01:46:12.679
of restriction.

3166
01:46:12.680 --> 01:46:14.839
So that's always this fear.

3167
01:46:14.840 --> 01:46:16.729
So is the fear that under is the

3168
01:46:16.730 --> 01:46:18.379
sort of undercurrent of discussions

3169
01:46:18.380 --> 01:46:20.719
like this and

3170
01:46:20.720 --> 01:46:22.489
reconciling those two.

3171
01:46:25.100 --> 01:46:26.479
I would just say that recourse to

3172
01:46:26.480 --> 01:46:28.460
abstraction tends to be

3173
01:46:30.140 --> 01:46:32.179
a real difficulty in actually

3174
01:46:32.180 --> 01:46:34.069
constructing a shared a

3175
01:46:34.070 --> 01:46:36.289
commons and defending a commons and,

3176
01:46:36.290 --> 01:46:37.729
and the notion of something that's

3177
01:46:37.730 --> 01:46:39.409
shared, that's not privatized,

3178
01:46:39.410 --> 01:46:41.149
that's not, you know, property

3179
01:46:41.150 --> 01:46:43.429
begins with the right to exclude

3180
01:46:43.430 --> 01:46:45.349
and to not start with these

3181
01:46:45.350 --> 01:46:47.089
kinds of partitions, but by the

3182
01:46:47.090 --> 01:46:49.759
establishment of something

3183
01:46:49.760 --> 01:46:51.649
collective. And I think that's what

3184
01:46:51.650 --> 01:46:54.109
fundamentally esthetics

3185
01:46:54.110 --> 01:46:55.939
as I

3186
01:46:55.940 --> 01:46:57.739
mean, language is arguably a subset

3187
01:46:57.740 --> 01:46:59.229
of esthetics, but esthetics is the

3188
01:46:59.230 --> 01:47:01.089
appearance of something being known

3189
01:47:01.090 --> 01:47:02.739
and knowing through the senses,

3190
01:47:02.740 --> 01:47:04.719
something becoming sensate.

3191
01:47:04.720 --> 01:47:06.609
And that is a bodily kind

3192
01:47:06.610 --> 01:47:07.719
of understanding.

3193
01:47:07.720 --> 01:47:10.209
And it's a bodily kind of thinking.

3194
01:47:10.210 --> 01:47:12.579
And not to say that it's simply

3195
01:47:12.580 --> 01:47:14.439
a vibration or something

3196
01:47:14.440 --> 01:47:16.029
like that, but it is becoming

3197
01:47:16.030 --> 01:47:17.619
something, becoming sensate that

3198
01:47:17.620 --> 01:47:19.569
wasn't before and shared

3199
01:47:19.570 --> 01:47:21.609
among a group, among the group

3200
01:47:21.610 --> 01:47:24.069
and becoming sensate together.

3201
01:47:24.070 --> 01:47:26.079
So I think of art as

3202
01:47:26.080 --> 01:47:28.059
a kind of discourse about esthetics

3203
01:47:28.060 --> 01:47:29.769
that happens through esthetics.

3204
01:47:29.770 --> 01:47:31.599
It looks at itself.

3205
01:47:31.600 --> 01:47:33.939
It concerns itself with how

3206
01:47:33.940 --> 01:47:36.609
communion or community is formed

3207
01:47:36.610 --> 01:47:38.559
through shared sensation,

3208
01:47:38.560 --> 01:47:40.419
through a kind of coming together

3209
01:47:40.420 --> 01:47:42.039
through a knowledge or an

3210
01:47:42.040 --> 01:47:44.049
understanding, and

3211
01:47:44.050 --> 01:47:45.879
that furthermore, this

3212
01:47:45.880 --> 01:47:47.350
space of pedagogy

3213
01:47:48.490 --> 01:47:50.619
is where you you have

3214
01:47:50.620 --> 01:47:53.079
to always balance that

3215
01:47:53.080 --> 01:47:54.939
compartmentalization,

3216
01:47:54.940 --> 01:47:56.949
that taxonomy structure

3217
01:47:56.950 --> 01:47:59.169
of proposing histories

3218
01:47:59.170 --> 01:48:01.539
with, with the fundamental

3219
01:48:01.540 --> 01:48:03.279
opposition that that might have to

3220
01:48:03.280 --> 01:48:04.569
the discourse itself.

3221
01:48:04.570 --> 01:48:07.419
In other words, communion,

3222
01:48:07.420 --> 01:48:10.089
sensate continuities

3223
01:48:10.090 --> 01:48:12.129
and sharing a framework of

3224
01:48:12.130 --> 01:48:14.049
common experience.

3225
01:48:14.050 --> 01:48:15.639
And that's a kind of tension that

3226
01:48:15.640 --> 01:48:17.439
then operates is also when you talk

3227
01:48:17.440 --> 01:48:19.179
about teaching, because it's always

3228
01:48:19.180 --> 01:48:20.919
has this function of being within an

3229
01:48:20.920 --> 01:48:22.659
institution or having an

3230
01:48:22.660 --> 01:48:24.639
institutional kind of dimension

3231
01:48:24.640 --> 01:48:26.619
or authority, or

3232
01:48:26.620 --> 01:48:28.569
us being on a raised platform

3233
01:48:28.570 --> 01:48:30.639
and you being facing us in chairs

3234
01:48:30.640 --> 01:48:32.589
and etc., etc., and all of these

3235
01:48:32.590 --> 01:48:33.879
hierarchies that are reinforced

3236
01:48:33.880 --> 01:48:35.349
through esthetics.

3237
01:48:35.350 --> 01:48:36.350
So.

3238
01:48:37.840 --> 01:48:40.359
So then what am

3239
01:48:40.360 --> 01:48:41.560
I it just.

3240
01:48:43.930 --> 01:48:46.029
So I think that,

3241
01:48:46.030 --> 01:48:47.679
you know, with teaching, you're

3242
01:48:47.680 --> 01:48:49.689
always rebuilding that kind of

3243
01:48:49.690 --> 01:48:51.909
shared notion or critical

3244
01:48:51.910 --> 01:48:54.039
engagement with what kind

3245
01:48:54.040 --> 01:48:56.799
of communion you are constructing

3246
01:48:56.800 --> 01:48:58.949
and how you're producing a sensate

3247
01:48:58.950 --> 01:49:01.539
shared set of experiences.

3248
01:49:01.540 --> 01:49:03.429
And on some level, it's

3249
01:49:03.430 --> 01:49:05.739
not about history

3250
01:49:05.740 --> 01:49:07.899
or even just multiple histories.

3251
01:49:07.900 --> 01:49:09.759
It's in each moment

3252
01:49:09.760 --> 01:49:11.709
of thinking lineages

3253
01:49:11.710 --> 01:49:13.809
or origins or things

3254
01:49:13.810 --> 01:49:15.669
like that. You're rebuilding a new

3255
01:49:15.670 --> 01:49:17.529
history, and it's always being

3256
01:49:17.530 --> 01:49:19.479
remade in every moment, and

3257
01:49:19.480 --> 01:49:21.399
it's always being reconstructed.

3258
01:49:21.400 --> 01:49:23.229
And you're and you're altering

3259
01:49:23.230 --> 01:49:24.729
it in that retelling.

3260
01:49:24.730 --> 01:49:26.559
So there's quite a bit of agency

3261
01:49:26.560 --> 01:49:28.089
in that as well.

3262
01:49:28.090 --> 01:49:29.559
And it's not it.

3263
01:49:29.560 --> 01:49:32.139
It isn't merely a restriction,

3264
01:49:32.140 --> 01:49:33.999
it's also an act of

3265
01:49:34.000 --> 01:49:35.829
production. So

3266
01:49:35.830 --> 01:49:37.060
for whatever that's worth,

3267
01:49:38.080 --> 01:49:40.030
I think we could then talk.

3268
01:49:41.680 --> 01:49:42.680
Yeah.

3269
01:49:43.870 --> 01:49:44.870
Thanks, Wally.

3270
01:49:48.610 --> 01:49:49.539
Yeah.

3271
01:49:49.540 --> 01:49:52.569
There's there's a term

3272
01:49:52.570 --> 01:49:54.660
from an Ursula Le Gwen

3273
01:49:56.010 --> 01:49:57.929
short story called

3274
01:49:57.930 --> 01:49:59.489
A Showbiz Story.

3275
01:49:59.490 --> 01:50:02.759
And the term is Enter verification,

3276
01:50:02.760 --> 01:50:04.440
where basically

3277
01:50:05.670 --> 01:50:07.979
a crew reconstructs reality

3278
01:50:07.980 --> 01:50:09.569
through a kind of internal

3279
01:50:09.570 --> 01:50:11.219
verification where they ask each

3280
01:50:11.220 --> 01:50:13.619
other, they gather around a campfire

3281
01:50:13.620 --> 01:50:15.779
and and talk to each other and

3282
01:50:15.780 --> 01:50:17.819
reconstruct their reality.

3283
01:50:19.380 --> 01:50:21.539
Yeah. So it makes me think of this,

3284
01:50:21.540 --> 01:50:22.540
this,

3285
01:50:23.430 --> 01:50:24.430
this sort of

3286
01:50:25.410 --> 01:50:27.359
this attitudes towards

3287
01:50:29.280 --> 01:50:31.769
affirming and recreating reality

3288
01:50:31.770 --> 01:50:33.089
all the time.

3289
01:50:33.090 --> 01:50:35.819
Yeah. And not,

3290
01:50:35.820 --> 01:50:37.979
you know, where

3291
01:50:37.980 --> 01:50:39.869
it seems like it's not about

3292
01:50:39.870 --> 01:50:41.309
protection, right?

3293
01:50:41.310 --> 01:50:43.439
It's about assent and

3294
01:50:44.640 --> 01:50:46.799
and and

3295
01:50:46.800 --> 01:50:49.439
harmonizing towards building

3296
01:50:49.440 --> 01:50:50.339
the present.

3297
01:50:50.340 --> 01:50:51.340
Right.

3298
01:50:52.470 --> 01:50:53.470
Okay, so

3299
01:50:54.600 --> 01:50:56.009
I guess want to I'm just going to go

3300
01:50:56.010 --> 01:50:58.049
through and and sort of

3301
01:50:59.610 --> 01:51:02.009
ask follow up questions

3302
01:51:02.010 --> 01:51:03.750
and people can just jump in.

3303
01:51:05.280 --> 01:51:07.259
But in terms

3304
01:51:07.260 --> 01:51:09.299
of for the

3305
01:51:09.300 --> 01:51:11.309
curators, I guess for us

3306
01:51:11.310 --> 01:51:12.310
and Pablo,

3307
01:51:13.170 --> 01:51:15.089
there's, you

3308
01:51:15.090 --> 01:51:17.129
know, there's a slowness

3309
01:51:17.130 --> 01:51:19.139
in, in, in the

3310
01:51:19.140 --> 01:51:20.009
institution.

3311
01:51:20.010 --> 01:51:22.889
Right, in the museum institution.

3312
01:51:22.890 --> 01:51:24.959
And Candice brought up this,

3313
01:51:24.960 --> 01:51:26.849
this, this analogy

3314
01:51:26.850 --> 01:51:28.739
to, to to

3315
01:51:28.740 --> 01:51:29.740
cruise ship.

3316
01:51:31.170 --> 01:51:33.179
And, but there's, there's

3317
01:51:33.180 --> 01:51:34.889
also positive things about that

3318
01:51:34.890 --> 01:51:36.119
slowness.

3319
01:51:36.120 --> 01:51:37.079
Right.

3320
01:51:37.080 --> 01:51:38.909
And so I guess

3321
01:51:38.910 --> 01:51:41.249
how do you imagine your

3322
01:51:41.250 --> 01:51:43.109
positions and

3323
01:51:43.110 --> 01:51:44.969
in your case are in

3324
01:51:44.970 --> 01:51:46.859
being, in opening up

3325
01:51:46.860 --> 01:51:49.169
a kind of responsiveness

3326
01:51:49.170 --> 01:51:51.149
to the museum, what's lost

3327
01:51:51.150 --> 01:51:52.150
and what's gained.

3328
01:51:57.900 --> 01:51:59.429
I don't think of our institution.

3329
01:51:59.430 --> 01:52:02.069
Is that like a cruise ship at all?

3330
01:52:02.070 --> 01:52:04.469
First of all, we're pretty small.

3331
01:52:04.470 --> 01:52:05.470
I'm more like a

3332
01:52:06.480 --> 01:52:07.979
a regular boat.

3333
01:52:07.980 --> 01:52:08.980
But.

3334
01:52:11.760 --> 01:52:13.379
But the I.

3335
01:52:13.380 --> 01:52:15.329
You have to balance those

3336
01:52:15.330 --> 01:52:16.469
those things, right?

3337
01:52:16.470 --> 01:52:18.449
Because you shouldn't be

3338
01:52:18.450 --> 01:52:20.459
so responsive that you're not

3339
01:52:20.460 --> 01:52:22.409
seeing all the details.

3340
01:52:22.410 --> 01:52:24.389
And I,

3341
01:52:24.390 --> 01:52:25.859
I will say that

3342
01:52:27.210 --> 01:52:29.009
what what Pablo is saying is, is

3343
01:52:29.010 --> 01:52:30.569
really interesting because.

3344
01:52:33.180 --> 01:52:35.009
You feel are we

3345
01:52:35.010 --> 01:52:36.029
are we doing the right thing?

3346
01:52:36.030 --> 01:52:37.889
And I, I just want to

3347
01:52:37.890 --> 01:52:38.890
open up

3348
01:52:39.870 --> 01:52:41.129
the conversation as much as

3349
01:52:41.130 --> 01:52:42.809
possible. So we learn from each

3350
01:52:42.810 --> 01:52:43.810
other.

3351
01:52:44.580 --> 01:52:46.649
We have a teen fellowship

3352
01:52:46.650 --> 01:52:48.919
called Agency of Assets, and we

3353
01:52:48.920 --> 01:52:50.449
provide a stipend for those teens

3354
01:52:50.450 --> 01:52:52.219
because we value their opinion as

3355
01:52:52.220 --> 01:52:53.839
members of the community.

3356
01:52:53.840 --> 01:52:55.489
So learning from that perspective,

3357
01:52:55.490 --> 01:52:57.379
which I no longer have as

3358
01:52:57.380 --> 01:52:59.269
a teen in Los Angeles

3359
01:52:59.270 --> 01:53:00.799
and what they're up against.

3360
01:53:00.800 --> 01:53:02.869
And so it's

3361
01:53:02.870 --> 01:53:03.859
a constant learning.

3362
01:53:03.860 --> 01:53:06.109
And I and I say this all the time

3363
01:53:06.110 --> 01:53:08.599
about exposure is

3364
01:53:08.600 --> 01:53:10.339
is the best education.

3365
01:53:10.340 --> 01:53:11.929
Right. Just seeing as much as you

3366
01:53:11.930 --> 01:53:14.179
can. So then, you know, so

3367
01:53:14.180 --> 01:53:16.399
seeing and learning and

3368
01:53:16.400 --> 01:53:18.409
meeting as many people

3369
01:53:18.410 --> 01:53:19.999
and learning about it even in your

3370
01:53:20.000 --> 01:53:21.949
daily coffee run, you know,

3371
01:53:21.950 --> 01:53:22.909
education is everywhere.

3372
01:53:22.910 --> 01:53:24.799
I think Steve also mentioned it in

3373
01:53:24.800 --> 01:53:27.019
the last panel. Or maybe

3374
01:53:27.020 --> 01:53:28.549
education comes outside of the

3375
01:53:28.550 --> 01:53:30.799
institution and I wholeheartedly

3376
01:53:30.800 --> 01:53:31.759
agree.

3377
01:53:31.760 --> 01:53:33.499
I said that to my kids all the time.

3378
01:53:33.500 --> 01:53:35.509
It's like, well, school doesn't

3379
01:53:35.510 --> 01:53:36.890
end in the classroom.

3380
01:53:38.690 --> 01:53:40.040
So that

3381
01:53:41.420 --> 01:53:43.549
the slowness is important

3382
01:53:43.550 --> 01:53:45.469
to know when to slow down and

3383
01:53:45.470 --> 01:53:47.600
then when to be Urgent.

3384
01:53:50.600 --> 01:53:51.680
Okay. Thank you.

3385
01:53:53.510 --> 01:53:54.510
Pablo.

3386
01:53:56.900 --> 01:53:57.900
Do you want to chime in?

3387
01:54:00.680 --> 01:54:02.329
Oh. The slowness.

3388
01:54:02.330 --> 01:54:04.519
Yeah, just. Just working.

3389
01:54:04.520 --> 01:54:05.930
You know, what do you.

3390
01:54:07.940 --> 01:54:09.679
Sort of. What are you pushing

3391
01:54:09.680 --> 01:54:11.509
towards? What kind of change

3392
01:54:11.510 --> 01:54:14.179
are you pushing towards, and

3393
01:54:14.180 --> 01:54:15.469
how does it work within the

3394
01:54:15.470 --> 01:54:16.579
institution?

3395
01:54:16.580 --> 01:54:18.679
And what what

3396
01:54:18.680 --> 01:54:20.659
do you want to leave behind

3397
01:54:20.660 --> 01:54:22.969
and what do you want to gain

3398
01:54:22.970 --> 01:54:24.979
in, in sort of,

3399
01:54:26.270 --> 01:54:27.529
I don't know, creating

3400
01:54:28.730 --> 01:54:30.619
controls or something to to

3401
01:54:30.620 --> 01:54:32.629
have the museum be more

3402
01:54:32.630 --> 01:54:34.579
responsive or.

3403
01:54:34.580 --> 01:54:35.569
Yeah.

3404
01:54:35.570 --> 01:54:36.570
Yeah.

3405
01:54:37.590 --> 01:54:39.409
I, I think that

3406
01:54:39.410 --> 01:54:41.269
book curators are we

3407
01:54:41.270 --> 01:54:42.949
are strange creatures.

3408
01:54:42.950 --> 01:54:44.839
Right. Like you are

3409
01:54:44.840 --> 01:54:46.879
kind of worrying many hats and

3410
01:54:46.880 --> 01:54:48.709
talking to artists and going

3411
01:54:48.710 --> 01:54:50.629
to freeze. And then you have

3412
01:54:50.630 --> 01:54:52.009
you go to your house and you write a

3413
01:54:52.010 --> 01:54:54.349
text. You know, it's it's pretty

3414
01:54:54.350 --> 01:54:56.000
schizophrenic, I guess.

3415
01:54:57.620 --> 01:54:59.569
And about change, I'm thinking

3416
01:54:59.570 --> 01:55:02.299
about the question that someone

3417
01:55:02.300 --> 01:55:04.369
made before with the previous panel

3418
01:55:04.370 --> 01:55:05.479
about hope.

3419
01:55:05.480 --> 01:55:06.619
And I was thinking of this quote.

3420
01:55:08.330 --> 01:55:10.069
I think he was gramscian he said

3421
01:55:10.070 --> 01:55:11.899
about optimism

3422
01:55:11.900 --> 01:55:14.689
of wheel, pessimism of intellect.

3423
01:55:14.690 --> 01:55:15.769
Right.

3424
01:55:15.770 --> 01:55:17.059
And, you know, it's kind of like

3425
01:55:17.060 --> 01:55:18.439
how, I guess, the question of how

3426
01:55:18.440 --> 01:55:19.999
you balance that, right, how you

3427
01:55:20.000 --> 01:55:20.899
best balance.

3428
01:55:20.900 --> 01:55:22.459
And it is not about objectivity, but

3429
01:55:22.460 --> 01:55:23.809
it's about like, you know, let's.

3430
01:55:23.810 --> 01:55:25.669
Yeah. I mean, I guess kind of like

3431
01:55:25.670 --> 01:55:27.859
the idea of educational depth

3432
01:55:27.860 --> 01:55:29.959
versus educational,

3433
01:55:29.960 --> 01:55:31.849
as you were saying, like celebrate

3434
01:55:31.850 --> 01:55:33.619
positive education, though.

3435
01:55:33.620 --> 01:55:34.620
And

3436
01:55:35.720 --> 01:55:37.609
I, I also feel that we are

3437
01:55:37.610 --> 01:55:40.009
somehow a bit of like a

3438
01:55:40.010 --> 01:55:41.449
kind of like a generation of

3439
01:55:41.450 --> 01:55:42.450
transition.

3440
01:55:43.400 --> 01:55:46.149
For me, it's very hard to

3441
01:55:46.150 --> 01:55:48.099
ambition, concrete

3442
01:55:48.100 --> 01:55:50.799
future scenarios, to be honest.

3443
01:55:50.800 --> 01:55:52.839
But I,

3444
01:55:52.840 --> 01:55:54.729
I kind of feel that

3445
01:55:54.730 --> 01:55:56.229
I have an idea of what I want to do

3446
01:55:56.230 --> 01:55:57.159
today.

3447
01:55:57.160 --> 01:55:59.109
Right? And

3448
01:55:59.110 --> 01:56:01.389
and for me, it's about,

3449
01:56:01.390 --> 01:56:03.159
I guess, kind of like, as Carolina

3450
01:56:03.160 --> 01:56:04.899
was saying, kind of thinking about

3451
01:56:04.900 --> 01:56:07.599
bridges, thinking about

3452
01:56:07.600 --> 01:56:09.639
my role or our role as

3453
01:56:09.640 --> 01:56:11.119
also translators.

3454
01:56:11.120 --> 01:56:12.399
Right. There are many forms of

3455
01:56:12.400 --> 01:56:13.239
translation, right?

3456
01:56:13.240 --> 01:56:15.039
So also how to think about these

3457
01:56:15.040 --> 01:56:16.779
sort of like let's say mediation.

3458
01:56:16.780 --> 01:56:18.879
What what does it mean to

3459
01:56:18.880 --> 01:56:20.769
for me, for instance, to to work

3460
01:56:20.770 --> 01:56:22.509
with like in the lobby.

3461
01:56:22.510 --> 01:56:24.579
Well, with a collective

3462
01:56:24.580 --> 01:56:26.619
from children in Michoacan and bring

3463
01:56:26.620 --> 01:56:28.539
them to the museum and, and do this

3464
01:56:28.540 --> 01:56:30.549
like so I guess I'm trying to work

3465
01:56:30.550 --> 01:56:31.779
through navigate through these

3466
01:56:31.780 --> 01:56:33.609
questions and, and

3467
01:56:33.610 --> 01:56:34.659
thinking on.

3468
01:56:34.660 --> 01:56:36.639
Yeah. Like how somehow you

3469
01:56:36.640 --> 01:56:38.499
are kind of like a bit of a

3470
01:56:38.500 --> 01:56:39.729
pirate, right?

3471
01:56:39.730 --> 01:56:41.499
Like you are kind of like in, in the

3472
01:56:41.500 --> 01:56:43.419
institution, but also you don't.

3473
01:56:43.420 --> 01:56:45.279
You are not determined completely

3474
01:56:45.280 --> 01:56:46.089
by the institution.

3475
01:56:46.090 --> 01:56:47.439
And I think curators, especially

3476
01:56:47.440 --> 01:56:49.119
institutional curators, really need

3477
01:56:49.120 --> 01:56:51.129
to remember that we are

3478
01:56:51.130 --> 01:56:52.929
we are our own voices as well.

3479
01:56:52.930 --> 01:56:55.029
And we are in constant kind of like

3480
01:56:55.030 --> 01:56:57.219
a state of, I guess, negotiation

3481
01:56:57.220 --> 01:56:59.229
with, with institutional policies,

3482
01:56:59.230 --> 01:57:01.149
expectations, but also in the

3483
01:57:01.150 --> 01:57:03.069
end, you work for the artist, right?

3484
01:57:03.070 --> 01:57:04.659
And and there are the ones who know

3485
01:57:04.660 --> 01:57:06.489
the thing, like, you know, we as

3486
01:57:06.490 --> 01:57:08.019
I said in another talk where

3487
01:57:08.020 --> 01:57:09.819
curators are just catching up, you

3488
01:57:09.820 --> 01:57:10.820
know?

3489
01:57:11.620 --> 01:57:12.819
Okay, great.

3490
01:57:15.190 --> 01:57:17.139
Carolina, can you

3491
01:57:17.140 --> 01:57:19.090
can you talk more about.

3492
01:57:21.790 --> 01:57:22.790
How?

3493
01:57:25.450 --> 01:57:27.459
How how you conceive

3494
01:57:27.460 --> 01:57:29.289
or imagine,

3495
01:57:29.290 --> 01:57:31.359
you know, embodiment working

3496
01:57:31.360 --> 01:57:33.969
in terms of addressing

3497
01:57:33.970 --> 01:57:34.970
kind of,

3498
01:57:35.920 --> 01:57:37.059
I don't know, a diasporic

3499
01:57:37.060 --> 01:57:37.899
subjectivity.

3500
01:57:37.900 --> 01:57:39.490
And so what what is that

3501
01:57:40.600 --> 01:57:42.130
what does that mean?

3502
01:57:49.950 --> 01:57:51.399
Well, first I want to comment on the

3503
01:57:51.400 --> 01:57:53.469
word diaspora and how

3504
01:57:53.470 --> 01:57:55.059
in the particular context, as a

3505
01:57:55.060 --> 01:57:56.859
Colombiana who lives outside,

3506
01:57:58.570 --> 01:58:00.669
we're trying to and

3507
01:58:00.670 --> 01:58:02.589
that means also to be to be, you

3508
01:58:02.590 --> 01:58:03.669
know, that's one of the things that

3509
01:58:03.670 --> 01:58:05.019
means to always have a photo of

3510
01:58:05.020 --> 01:58:05.949
where you come from.

3511
01:58:05.950 --> 01:58:07.180
To be very attentive,

3512
01:58:08.290 --> 01:58:10.239
because I collaborated

3513
01:58:10.240 --> 01:58:12.069
with a group of exiled women

3514
01:58:12.070 --> 01:58:14.049
last year, exiled

3515
01:58:14.050 --> 01:58:15.909
women in in Spain who

3516
01:58:15.910 --> 01:58:17.769
had to flee

3517
01:58:17.770 --> 01:58:19.719
the country to save their lives

3518
01:58:19.720 --> 01:58:21.639
during the worst times of the war

3519
01:58:21.640 --> 01:58:23.319
in Colombia.

3520
01:58:23.320 --> 01:58:25.239
And I was

3521
01:58:25.240 --> 01:58:27.429
talking to them about our diasporic

3522
01:58:27.430 --> 01:58:29.589
experiences, and they said, we're

3523
01:58:29.590 --> 01:58:31.539
trying to shy away from that

3524
01:58:31.540 --> 01:58:33.130
term of the diaspora.

3525
01:58:34.210 --> 01:58:35.829
And this is a very particular

3526
01:58:35.830 --> 01:58:37.479
Colombian context because.

3527
01:58:40.290 --> 01:58:42.539
We want to insist on the term

3528
01:58:42.540 --> 01:58:43.540
silent

3529
01:58:44.400 --> 01:58:47.579
as a violation of a human rights.

3530
01:58:47.580 --> 01:58:49.589
And because paramilitary

3531
01:58:49.590 --> 01:58:51.629
right wing armed groups

3532
01:58:51.630 --> 01:58:54.359
in Colombia who have been very

3533
01:58:54.360 --> 01:58:56.639
violent and and devastated

3534
01:58:56.640 --> 01:58:58.379
many lives, including them,

3535
01:58:59.520 --> 01:59:01.349
have started associating

3536
01:59:01.350 --> 01:59:02.579
themselves to that work to the

3537
01:59:02.580 --> 01:59:03.569
diaspora.

3538
01:59:03.570 --> 01:59:04.949
So it has turned another it has

3539
01:59:04.950 --> 01:59:06.479
taken another political context.

3540
01:59:06.480 --> 01:59:08.459
So I am going to honor

3541
01:59:08.460 --> 01:59:10.379
that teaching that these women

3542
01:59:10.380 --> 01:59:11.669
gave me last year.

3543
01:59:11.670 --> 01:59:13.559
And I'm going to disassociate myself

3544
01:59:13.560 --> 01:59:15.090
from that word, the diaspora

3545
01:59:16.560 --> 01:59:18.899
and, and talk about

3546
01:59:18.900 --> 01:59:21.749
an a kind of

3547
01:59:21.750 --> 01:59:23.639
not imposed exile, but an

3548
01:59:23.640 --> 01:59:24.779
utter exile.

3549
01:59:24.780 --> 01:59:26.639
I left Colombia

3550
01:59:26.640 --> 01:59:27.640
in 99.

3551
01:59:29.400 --> 01:59:30.569
So that one thing

3552
01:59:31.620 --> 01:59:32.620
and then.

3553
01:59:34.920 --> 01:59:36.599
And then I wanted to respond also to

3554
01:59:36.600 --> 01:59:38.129
the first question really quick.

3555
01:59:38.130 --> 01:59:41.159
And just to also offer a

3556
01:59:41.160 --> 01:59:43.409
a beautiful book

3557
01:59:43.410 --> 01:59:45.359
that's called Slow Down a Toda

3558
01:59:45.360 --> 01:59:47.699
Raja by

3559
01:59:47.700 --> 01:59:49.729
Cecilia Vicuna and Camilla, Madame

3560
01:59:49.730 --> 01:59:51.509
Vere I was published during the

3561
01:59:51.510 --> 01:59:53.519
pandemic. That specifically

3562
01:59:53.520 --> 01:59:55.529
speaks about

3563
01:59:55.530 --> 01:59:58.379
how we need to slow down quickly.

3564
01:59:58.380 --> 02:00:00.029
That's the title.

3565
02:00:00.030 --> 02:00:01.859
So that's what slow down the

3566
02:00:01.860 --> 02:00:02.860
recommends.

3567
02:00:03.870 --> 02:00:04.870
Okay.

3568
02:00:05.490 --> 02:00:07.679
And and the embodiment takes

3569
02:00:07.680 --> 02:00:09.839
many shapes, you know, takes shape

3570
02:00:09.840 --> 02:00:11.429
in the daily practice.

3571
02:00:11.430 --> 02:00:13.619
I wish much more.

3572
02:00:13.620 --> 02:00:15.179
Sometimes I forget to yeah.

3573
02:00:15.180 --> 02:00:15.989
To embody it.

3574
02:00:15.990 --> 02:00:17.939
And you know myself as a daily

3575
02:00:17.940 --> 02:00:19.259
practice.

3576
02:00:19.260 --> 02:00:21.149
And it takes shape

3577
02:00:21.150 --> 02:00:23.339
in opening up the

3578
02:00:23.340 --> 02:00:25.259
opportunities and

3579
02:00:25.260 --> 02:00:28.649
privileges that

3580
02:00:28.650 --> 02:00:30.629
I have when I get invited to

3581
02:00:30.630 --> 02:00:32.519
show work and opening up that

3582
02:00:32.520 --> 02:00:34.529
space of exhibition to other

3583
02:00:34.530 --> 02:00:36.899
artists and to other collectives

3584
02:00:36.900 --> 02:00:38.729
who are doing what for me

3585
02:00:38.730 --> 02:00:40.439
is contemporary art.

3586
02:00:40.440 --> 02:00:42.359
But maybe that these cultural

3587
02:00:42.360 --> 02:00:43.829
materials are not being produced for

3588
02:00:43.830 --> 02:00:45.389
the white box, or for a museum or a

3589
02:00:45.390 --> 02:00:46.439
gallery.

3590
02:00:46.440 --> 02:00:48.269
They're produced more in the context

3591
02:00:48.270 --> 02:00:49.680
of popular education.

3592
02:00:51.300 --> 02:00:52.799
I'm kind of trying to align myself

3593
02:00:52.800 --> 02:00:54.629
that as an artist, like, how can

3594
02:00:54.630 --> 02:00:56.969
I conceive

3595
02:00:56.970 --> 02:00:58.949
my art also as a tool of

3596
02:00:58.950 --> 02:01:00.809
popular education and

3597
02:01:00.810 --> 02:01:02.220
pedagogical space?

3598
02:01:03.570 --> 02:01:05.819
And and then

3599
02:01:07.200 --> 02:01:09.089
also trying to channel resources

3600
02:01:09.090 --> 02:01:10.829
to do more ambitious stuff.

3601
02:01:10.830 --> 02:01:12.419
And actually, I'm going to take the

3602
02:01:12.420 --> 02:01:15.539
opportunity to do some marketing

3603
02:01:15.540 --> 02:01:17.189
in a week.

3604
02:01:17.190 --> 02:01:19.229
March 1st Saturday

3605
02:01:19.230 --> 02:01:20.309
from 10 a.m..

3606
02:01:20.310 --> 02:01:21.979
I know it's morning from 10 a.m.

3607
02:01:21.980 --> 02:01:23.099
to 1 p.m..

3608
02:01:23.100 --> 02:01:24.869
We're hosting a huge collective

3609
02:01:24.870 --> 02:01:26.849
participatory performance at

3610
02:01:26.850 --> 02:01:28.769
USC as part

3611
02:01:28.770 --> 02:01:30.719
of a program that's

3612
02:01:30.720 --> 02:01:31.800
called Visions and Voices.

3613
02:01:34.550 --> 02:01:36.559
Reservations are open so you can

3614
02:01:36.560 --> 02:01:38.569
look it up. It's called El Respeto

3615
02:01:38.570 --> 02:01:40.459
or Aspire, and

3616
02:01:40.460 --> 02:01:43.429
the invitation is to have

3617
02:01:43.430 --> 02:01:46.249
hopefully 150 participants

3618
02:01:46.250 --> 02:01:48.019
where we're writing with our bodies,

3619
02:01:48.020 --> 02:01:49.879
a demand for a just

3620
02:01:49.880 --> 02:01:51.769
transition now or a

3621
02:01:51.770 --> 02:01:53.119
transition just ajar.

3622
02:01:54.950 --> 02:01:55.950
And so also

3623
02:01:56.930 --> 02:01:58.759
it's, you know, it's it takes,

3624
02:01:58.760 --> 02:02:00.409
you know, the whole range from very

3625
02:02:00.410 --> 02:02:02.389
humble everyday practices

3626
02:02:02.390 --> 02:02:04.399
as a mother, as a woman

3627
02:02:04.400 --> 02:02:06.439
of color, as a settler,

3628
02:02:06.440 --> 02:02:08.809
as an artist, as a housekeeper

3629
02:02:08.810 --> 02:02:10.729
to also hosting these

3630
02:02:10.730 --> 02:02:12.559
more ambitious

3631
02:02:12.560 --> 02:02:14.749
events like this one that we hope to

3632
02:02:14.750 --> 02:02:15.830
that all of you can come.

3633
02:02:17.810 --> 02:02:19.549
So, so yeah, I would say that that's

3634
02:02:19.550 --> 02:02:21.439
the range. And actually

3635
02:02:22.970 --> 02:02:24.589
to wrap up like a question to

3636
02:02:24.590 --> 02:02:25.590
myself.

3637
02:02:27.530 --> 02:02:29.389
How do I address the hierarchy

3638
02:02:29.390 --> 02:02:31.549
of the esthetics that Walid

3639
02:02:31.550 --> 02:02:34.009
mentioned In this performance

3640
02:02:34.010 --> 02:02:35.509
in El Respeto, because I'm going to

3641
02:02:35.510 --> 02:02:37.869
be bossing everyone around.

3642
02:02:37.870 --> 02:02:39.749
With the

3643
02:02:39.750 --> 02:02:40.750
the.

3644
02:02:41.240 --> 02:02:42.859
Megaphone to, you know, we're going

3645
02:02:42.860 --> 02:02:44.719
to do this huge choreography and,

3646
02:02:44.720 --> 02:02:46.699
you know, line up and write these.

3647
02:02:46.700 --> 02:02:48.289
So yeah, that's a question for

3648
02:02:48.290 --> 02:02:50.299
myself how to address that

3649
02:02:50.300 --> 02:02:51.619
hierarchy that I'm going to be

3650
02:02:51.620 --> 02:02:53.479
embodying that day when I'm like

3651
02:02:53.480 --> 02:02:55.249
giving people orders or

3652
02:02:55.250 --> 02:02:56.359
instructions. But anyway.

3653
02:02:56.360 --> 02:02:57.360
Yeah.

3654
02:02:59.420 --> 02:03:00.799
Thank you Karolina.

3655
02:03:02.930 --> 02:03:04.999
Well you do you want to speak

3656
02:03:05.000 --> 02:03:06.000
about

3657
02:03:07.610 --> 02:03:09.529
why why

3658
02:03:09.530 --> 02:03:11.600
you gravitate towards

3659
02:03:12.800 --> 02:03:14.569
a kind of material,

3660
02:03:16.320 --> 02:03:18.139
a materialist position in

3661
02:03:18.140 --> 02:03:19.489
speaking about esthetics?

3662
02:03:19.490 --> 02:03:22.100
And what's the previous problem

3663
02:03:23.480 --> 02:03:25.339
or the frustration with

3664
02:03:25.340 --> 02:03:26.689
what was out there?

3665
02:03:29.210 --> 02:03:30.679
Well, it is writing a book about

3666
02:03:30.680 --> 02:03:31.680
esthetics.

3667
02:03:35.690 --> 02:03:37.519
Well, so I

3668
02:03:37.520 --> 02:03:38.689
don't want to talk about that.

3669
02:03:38.690 --> 02:03:40.549
But what I

3670
02:03:40.550 --> 02:03:42.589
was thinking is like how

3671
02:03:43.670 --> 02:03:45.469
one really important or maybe this

3672
02:03:45.470 --> 02:03:47.359
partially does kind of answer your

3673
02:03:47.360 --> 02:03:48.360
question, but.

3674
02:03:50.550 --> 02:03:51.550
The.

3675
02:03:53.570 --> 02:03:55.069
I think it's always really important

3676
02:03:55.070 --> 02:03:57.529
to deal with like this specificity

3677
02:03:57.530 --> 02:03:59.659
of like what, what these activities

3678
02:03:59.660 --> 02:04:00.469
actually involve.

3679
02:04:00.470 --> 02:04:02.359
And, and I think that that

3680
02:04:02.360 --> 02:04:04.999
sort of danger of degenerating into

3681
02:04:05.000 --> 02:04:07.219
a set of a set of terminology

3682
02:04:07.220 --> 02:04:09.409
or negotiating over terminology

3683
02:04:09.410 --> 02:04:10.489
and negotiating over the

3684
02:04:10.490 --> 02:04:11.779
generalizations that sort of

3685
02:04:11.780 --> 02:04:13.399
terminology brings up, is just a

3686
02:04:13.400 --> 02:04:15.799
really tricky thing to try to avoid.

3687
02:04:15.800 --> 02:04:17.929
And starting with like really kind

3688
02:04:17.930 --> 02:04:19.759
of and for me, there are very

3689
02:04:19.760 --> 02:04:21.589
specific questions like

3690
02:04:21.590 --> 02:04:23.779
about art pedagogy and

3691
02:04:23.780 --> 02:04:25.489
it's it's failures and it's

3692
02:04:25.490 --> 02:04:27.469
functions within say on one

3693
02:04:27.470 --> 02:04:29.269
hand what what can is referred to.

3694
02:04:29.270 --> 02:04:30.819
Is that. Well, she's not over there.

3695
02:04:30.820 --> 02:04:32.739
I don't know where where to gesture

3696
02:04:32.740 --> 02:04:34.629
toward it. Okay, well, there

3697
02:04:34.630 --> 02:04:36.129
are two things. One was the activist

3698
02:04:36.130 --> 02:04:38.229
question, right where that takes

3699
02:04:38.230 --> 02:04:40.179
place, what operationally you

3700
02:04:40.180 --> 02:04:42.189
do when you are a part

3701
02:04:42.190 --> 02:04:43.779
of an institution and no matter how

3702
02:04:43.780 --> 02:04:45.219
much you want to be a pirate, you're

3703
02:04:45.220 --> 02:04:47.409
not because you have got a big

3704
02:04:47.410 --> 02:04:49.389
ship like you're part of the

3705
02:04:49.390 --> 02:04:51.189
Navy, you know?

3706
02:04:51.190 --> 02:04:53.979
So like it's it's it's

3707
02:04:53.980 --> 02:04:56.229
as an institutional actor,

3708
02:04:56.230 --> 02:04:58.959
what concrete things

3709
02:04:58.960 --> 02:05:01.119
have have to do with

3710
02:05:01.120 --> 02:05:03.129
affecting the course of that type

3711
02:05:03.130 --> 02:05:04.689
of ship and, and what I and I'm just

3712
02:05:04.690 --> 02:05:05.679
going to put this out. There is

3713
02:05:05.680 --> 02:05:07.179
something just that I'm thinking

3714
02:05:07.180 --> 02:05:09.249
about lately.

3715
02:05:09.250 --> 02:05:10.899
Did that sound aggressive when I

3716
02:05:10.900 --> 02:05:11.949
said you're not a pirate?

3717
02:05:11.950 --> 02:05:13.899
Because pirates are also pretty

3718
02:05:13.900 --> 02:05:16.269
dirty, you know, and

3719
02:05:16.270 --> 02:05:17.289
they have their own issue.

3720
02:05:17.290 --> 02:05:18.939
And so but I didn't want to.

3721
02:05:18.940 --> 02:05:20.429
And, you know, the Navy, they're

3722
02:05:20.430 --> 02:05:21.399
they look good.

3723
02:05:21.400 --> 02:05:23.619
You know, they're good good outfits.

3724
02:05:23.620 --> 02:05:24.620
So

3725
02:05:25.870 --> 02:05:26.870
anyway so

3726
02:05:28.000 --> 02:05:29.439
So I think it's kind of a brass

3727
02:05:29.440 --> 02:05:31.449
tacks kind of question.

3728
02:05:31.450 --> 02:05:33.609
Often cases in terms of human

3729
02:05:33.610 --> 02:05:35.169
suffering, it's brass tacks.

3730
02:05:35.170 --> 02:05:36.729
It's like specific.

3731
02:05:36.730 --> 02:05:38.169
And I think materialism in this,

3732
02:05:38.170 --> 02:05:39.999
sort of that kind of discourse

3733
02:05:40.000 --> 02:05:42.129
allows us to start talking

3734
02:05:42.130 --> 02:05:44.199
in specifics, and it tends to resist

3735
02:05:44.200 --> 02:05:46.059
questions of abstraction and

3736
02:05:46.060 --> 02:05:47.039
categorization.

3737
02:05:47.040 --> 02:05:48.159
Now, I'm not saying it's the end

3738
02:05:48.160 --> 02:05:49.539
all, be all, and it's solves

3739
02:05:49.540 --> 02:05:50.349
everything.

3740
02:05:50.350 --> 02:05:52.359
But like right now.

3741
02:05:52.360 --> 02:05:54.219
So I was invited to start a new art

3742
02:05:54.220 --> 02:05:55.179
graduate program.

3743
02:05:55.180 --> 02:05:58.029
And I think the MFA is a completely

3744
02:05:58.030 --> 02:06:00.999
suspect, absolutely broken,

3745
02:06:01.000 --> 02:06:02.769
fucked up thing.

3746
02:06:02.770 --> 02:06:04.299
That makes zero sense.

3747
02:06:04.300 --> 02:06:05.689
It's not a professional degree.

3748
02:06:05.690 --> 02:06:06.879
I mean, I went to a school where it

3749
02:06:06.880 --> 02:06:08.559
was it was associated with other

3750
02:06:08.560 --> 02:06:10.149
math terminal masters, which is

3751
02:06:10.150 --> 02:06:12.009
called a professional degree,

3752
02:06:12.010 --> 02:06:13.659
like nursing or.

3753
02:06:15.310 --> 02:06:16.239
Now, I can't think of other

3754
02:06:16.240 --> 02:06:18.069
professional degrees law as a

3755
02:06:18.070 --> 02:06:18.919
professional degree.

3756
02:06:18.920 --> 02:06:19.809
You know, these are terminal

3757
02:06:19.810 --> 02:06:21.729
master's types of degrees.

3758
02:06:21.730 --> 02:06:23.619
But there there was absolutely.

3759
02:06:23.620 --> 02:06:24.879
And Milton and I went to school

3760
02:06:24.880 --> 02:06:26.349
together. There was actually no

3761
02:06:26.350 --> 02:06:28.389
understanding of what professionally

3762
02:06:28.390 --> 02:06:30.579
that world actually was.

3763
02:06:30.580 --> 02:06:32.529
And and

3764
02:06:32.530 --> 02:06:34.059
then you have the, the other

3765
02:06:34.060 --> 02:06:35.619
element, which is an undergraduate

3766
02:06:35.620 --> 02:06:37.059
question of what is what is an

3767
02:06:37.060 --> 02:06:38.259
undergraduate education?

3768
02:06:38.260 --> 02:06:40.089
The arts really mean.

3769
02:06:40.090 --> 02:06:41.979
But in trying to imagine, how

3770
02:06:41.980 --> 02:06:43.539
do you solve these kinds of problems

3771
02:06:43.540 --> 02:06:45.489
that are associated with the

3772
02:06:45.490 --> 02:06:47.139
MFA?

3773
02:06:47.140 --> 02:06:49.149
And is that a am I getting

3774
02:06:49.150 --> 02:06:50.469
a time. No, no.

3775
02:06:50.470 --> 02:06:51.470
Okay.

3776
02:06:52.240 --> 02:06:54.129
Well, I can get well, you know, if

3777
02:06:54.130 --> 02:06:55.629
I had an idea of where I was going,

3778
02:06:55.630 --> 02:06:57.579
I could cut it short, but it

3779
02:06:57.580 --> 02:06:58.840
really would be arbitrary.

3780
02:07:00.910 --> 02:07:03.159
So it's always

3781
02:07:03.160 --> 02:07:04.569
this struggle of trying to deal with

3782
02:07:04.570 --> 02:07:06.279
these really specific things.

3783
02:07:06.280 --> 02:07:08.409
And, and as institutional

3784
02:07:08.410 --> 02:07:10.749
actors, I'm just curious because

3785
02:07:10.750 --> 02:07:12.729
two of you are institutional actors

3786
02:07:12.730 --> 02:07:14.229
and have been a lot of institutional

3787
02:07:14.230 --> 02:07:16.029
actors out here.

3788
02:07:16.030 --> 02:07:17.859
Is that and not to put anyone

3789
02:07:17.860 --> 02:07:18.849
on the spot because it's always

3790
02:07:18.850 --> 02:07:20.259
tricky, like, hey, what are you

3791
02:07:20.260 --> 02:07:21.909
going to do? Because like, I get to

3792
02:07:21.910 --> 02:07:24.039
be like, I don't have a job, so

3793
02:07:24.040 --> 02:07:25.229
I can't do anything to my

3794
02:07:25.230 --> 02:07:26.039
institution.

3795
02:07:26.040 --> 02:07:27.029
But I'm trying to start.

3796
02:07:27.030 --> 02:07:28.259
Girl, I'm supposed to start

3797
02:07:28.260 --> 02:07:30.149
something. So anyway, I'm

3798
02:07:30.150 --> 02:07:31.289
just kind of curious how you think

3799
02:07:31.290 --> 02:07:33.299
about those that those types

3800
02:07:33.300 --> 02:07:35.370
of questions and brass tacks ways.

3801
02:07:37.500 --> 02:07:38.579
Yeah, I don't know.

3802
02:07:38.580 --> 02:07:39.599
Is that unfair?

3803
02:07:39.600 --> 02:07:41.519
Maybe that's unfair and unfair.

3804
02:07:41.520 --> 02:07:42.929
Pablo I don't think so.

3805
02:07:42.930 --> 02:07:43.930
Yeah.

3806
02:07:45.600 --> 02:07:46.600
Yeah. I mean.

3807
02:07:48.630 --> 02:07:50.789
For the sake of debate.

3808
02:07:50.790 --> 02:07:52.619
I, I think that I, I, I get

3809
02:07:52.620 --> 02:07:53.729
what you mean. And I think

3810
02:07:54.870 --> 02:07:56.879
also that, that

3811
02:07:56.880 --> 02:07:58.319
that in part illustrates a big

3812
02:07:58.320 --> 02:08:00.059
prejudice towards curatorial

3813
02:08:00.060 --> 02:08:01.979
practice and the idea

3814
02:08:01.980 --> 02:08:03.689
of, like the institutional curators

3815
02:08:03.690 --> 02:08:06.029
somehow got like our

3816
02:08:06.030 --> 02:08:08.249
work in like 24 over seven with like

3817
02:08:08.250 --> 02:08:09.389
the infrastructure.

3818
02:08:09.390 --> 02:08:10.439
And what does that mean?

3819
02:08:10.440 --> 02:08:11.850
But let me explain.

3820
02:08:14.490 --> 02:08:15.569
You know, the thing with

3821
02:08:16.920 --> 02:08:17.909
I mean, I was thinking about

3822
02:08:17.910 --> 02:08:19.080
translation and

3823
02:08:20.520 --> 02:08:21.959
I mean, I didn't say I was a pirate.

3824
02:08:21.960 --> 02:08:24.059
I was talking about piracy

3825
02:08:24.060 --> 02:08:26.099
and and the thing is that, okay,

3826
02:08:26.100 --> 02:08:27.479
so I don't want to put myself as an

3827
02:08:27.480 --> 02:08:28.649
example, but I know many other

3828
02:08:28.650 --> 02:08:29.849
creators that probably are in this

3829
02:08:29.850 --> 02:08:30.850
room as well.

3830
02:08:33.600 --> 02:08:35.309
I, for instance, travel with a

3831
02:08:35.310 --> 02:08:36.389
watermelon passport.

3832
02:08:36.390 --> 02:08:37.919
Right? And I've been doing that for

3833
02:08:37.920 --> 02:08:39.270
the last 20 years.

3834
02:08:41.490 --> 02:08:43.439
Before coming to the hammer, I

3835
02:08:43.440 --> 02:08:45.659
was working at Tate,

3836
02:08:45.660 --> 02:08:46.829
another big institution.

3837
02:08:46.830 --> 02:08:47.850
So bigger ship.

3838
02:08:49.470 --> 02:08:51.479
And before that I was working ten

3839
02:08:51.480 --> 02:08:53.159
years as independent curator.

3840
02:08:55.350 --> 02:08:57.419
At Tate, I was the curator

3841
02:08:57.420 --> 02:08:59.969
of indigenous art at curator,

3842
02:08:59.970 --> 02:09:01.739
which meant that I had to negotiate

3843
02:09:01.740 --> 02:09:03.569
with different committees to

3844
02:09:03.570 --> 02:09:05.549
see how I could just put

3845
02:09:05.550 --> 02:09:07.619
their names of indigenous artist

3846
02:09:07.620 --> 02:09:09.899
if it was Taiwan or, well, Rodriguez

3847
02:09:09.900 --> 02:09:11.519
or Santiago.

3848
02:09:11.520 --> 02:09:13.049
So depending on the artists, like

3849
02:09:13.050 --> 02:09:14.459
the indigenous artists, I would have

3850
02:09:14.460 --> 02:09:15.899
to go to the Australian community,

3851
02:09:15.900 --> 02:09:17.999
the Taiwan, the Southeast

3852
02:09:18.000 --> 02:09:19.859
Asia or the East Asia.

3853
02:09:21.060 --> 02:09:22.439
And that, for me, is a practice of

3854
02:09:22.440 --> 02:09:23.759
piracy.

3855
02:09:23.760 --> 02:09:25.709
Because you have to, because

3856
02:09:25.710 --> 02:09:27.539
in the end, you come from a context,

3857
02:09:27.540 --> 02:09:29.219
right? And you speak from within

3858
02:09:29.220 --> 02:09:31.199
that context.

3859
02:09:31.200 --> 02:09:32.729
I mean, I am at the hammer now, but

3860
02:09:32.730 --> 02:09:33.539
I don't know where I'm going to be

3861
02:09:33.540 --> 02:09:34.499
in five years.

3862
02:09:34.500 --> 02:09:36.689
But when you have work independently

3863
02:09:36.690 --> 02:09:37.739
and then you have gone to the

3864
02:09:37.740 --> 02:09:39.689
institution and you're in and out,

3865
02:09:39.690 --> 02:09:41.609
you understand what it means to move

3866
02:09:41.610 --> 02:09:42.689
between worlds.

3867
02:09:42.690 --> 02:09:44.609
And also when you don't have

3868
02:09:44.610 --> 02:09:46.439
a European or a US passport,

3869
02:09:46.440 --> 02:09:47.909
you understand what it means to move

3870
02:09:47.910 --> 02:09:48.869
between worlds.

3871
02:09:48.870 --> 02:09:50.339
And I'm talking about very concrete

3872
02:09:50.340 --> 02:09:51.629
things here.

3873
02:09:51.630 --> 02:09:53.669
And I'm just saying that because

3874
02:09:53.670 --> 02:09:55.919
in so in another panel, someone

3875
02:09:55.920 --> 02:09:57.629
before when I was at Tate, someone

3876
02:09:57.630 --> 02:09:59.039
was like, Pablo, what do you know

3877
02:09:59.040 --> 02:10:01.349
that Tate is using you.

3878
02:10:01.350 --> 02:10:02.819
And I'm like, you know, I'm I don't

3879
02:10:02.820 --> 02:10:04.649
know, maybe. And I'm using Tate

3880
02:10:04.650 --> 02:10:06.479
as well, you know, so I just

3881
02:10:06.480 --> 02:10:08.369
I just think that there is a lot to

3882
02:10:08.370 --> 02:10:10.469
unpack here with these questions,

3883
02:10:10.470 --> 02:10:10.889
you know?

3884
02:10:10.890 --> 02:10:13.019
Yeah. I mean, the reformulation

3885
02:10:13.020 --> 02:10:15.299
of the prompt is basically this,

3886
02:10:15.300 --> 02:10:17.189
right, where we

3887
02:10:17.190 --> 02:10:19.189
have, you know,

3888
02:10:19.190 --> 02:10:20.809
To what extent are you working

3889
02:10:20.810 --> 02:10:22.969
within the the world that

3890
02:10:22.970 --> 02:10:25.099
we have inherited and

3891
02:10:25.100 --> 02:10:26.449
and what are you doing to bring

3892
02:10:26.450 --> 02:10:28.729
about the world that you

3893
02:10:28.730 --> 02:10:30.499
want to see?

3894
02:10:30.500 --> 02:10:32.359
Right. And it's always going

3895
02:10:32.360 --> 02:10:34.249
to be a relationship between those

3896
02:10:34.250 --> 02:10:35.269
two.

3897
02:10:35.270 --> 02:10:37.609
Right. With what you got and

3898
02:10:37.610 --> 02:10:39.109
where do you want to go.

3899
02:10:39.110 --> 02:10:41.300
And I think a lot of times there's

3900
02:10:42.470 --> 02:10:44.959
there's an anxiety over

3901
02:10:44.960 --> 02:10:47.419
not being realist

3902
02:10:47.420 --> 02:10:50.239
enough or too

3903
02:10:50.240 --> 02:10:51.529
idealistic.

3904
02:10:51.530 --> 02:10:53.420
Right. But I think the,

3905
02:10:54.560 --> 02:10:56.329
you know, for for the prompt, I try

3906
02:10:56.330 --> 02:10:58.549
to sort of push to

3907
02:10:58.550 --> 02:10:59.550
highlight

3908
02:11:00.500 --> 02:11:02.479
that navigation between those

3909
02:11:02.480 --> 02:11:04.399
two, those

3910
02:11:04.400 --> 02:11:06.679
two things.

3911
02:11:06.680 --> 02:11:07.519
Right. Those two.

3912
02:11:07.520 --> 02:11:08.779
Poles.

3913
02:11:08.780 --> 02:11:09.780
And I think

3914
02:11:10.850 --> 02:11:12.589
a lot of times we we get stuck

3915
02:11:12.590 --> 02:11:13.759
because we don't

3916
02:11:15.230 --> 02:11:17.389
acknowledge that we have to do

3917
02:11:17.390 --> 02:11:19.369
both Both works.

3918
02:11:19.370 --> 02:11:20.179
You know, both sides.

3919
02:11:20.180 --> 02:11:21.649
And I mean, sometimes you have to

3920
02:11:21.650 --> 02:11:24.079
work within the reality

3921
02:11:24.080 --> 02:11:25.789
of what we're given to open up

3922
02:11:25.790 --> 02:11:26.790
spaces.

3923
02:11:27.770 --> 02:11:28.309
Yeah.

3924
02:11:28.310 --> 02:11:29.779
Yeah. And that that makes me think

3925
02:11:29.780 --> 02:11:32.149
about how, after all the scary

3926
02:11:32.150 --> 02:11:34.069
work that many

3927
02:11:34.070 --> 02:11:36.499
of us did, I was so exhausted.

3928
02:11:36.500 --> 02:11:37.939
And I, you know, I was talking to

3929
02:11:37.940 --> 02:11:39.169
friends like, oh, can we just do

3930
02:11:39.170 --> 02:11:41.119
like, a gorilla exhibition without

3931
02:11:41.120 --> 02:11:42.979
any money? Just like in

3932
02:11:42.980 --> 02:11:44.869
a, you know, like somebody's living

3933
02:11:44.870 --> 02:11:46.819
room or an empty place or

3934
02:11:46.820 --> 02:11:47.930
like something, please.

3935
02:11:49.430 --> 02:11:52.189
And then the fires happen,

3936
02:11:52.190 --> 02:11:53.190
and then.

3937
02:11:54.920 --> 02:11:55.699
We did it.

3938
02:11:55.700 --> 02:11:57.259
We did it. And it's up right now at

3939
02:11:57.260 --> 02:11:58.519
Felix Art fair.

3940
02:11:58.520 --> 02:12:00.529
It's like a network.

3941
02:12:00.530 --> 02:12:03.019
We did an open call.

3942
02:12:03.020 --> 02:12:04.429
It was incredible.

3943
02:12:04.430 --> 02:12:06.499
We asked people to donate under

3944
02:12:06.500 --> 02:12:08.779
the idea of a cornerstone,

3945
02:12:08.780 --> 02:12:10.819
which was one of the very few things

3946
02:12:10.820 --> 02:12:13.909
that remained after the fires

3947
02:12:13.910 --> 02:12:15.889
of a of a structure of any given

3948
02:12:15.890 --> 02:12:17.959
structure to

3949
02:12:17.960 --> 02:12:19.519
respond to this idea of the

3950
02:12:19.520 --> 02:12:21.229
cornerstone and create a piece of

3951
02:12:21.230 --> 02:12:23.959
art under specific measurements

3952
02:12:23.960 --> 02:12:25.429
and donate it for this benefit.

3953
02:12:25.430 --> 02:12:27.259
That's up until this, fellas.

3954
02:12:27.260 --> 02:12:29.359
Until tomorrow. Yeah, it's been up

3955
02:12:29.360 --> 02:12:30.360
and

3956
02:12:31.190 --> 02:12:32.779
and there's a sliding scale.

3957
02:12:32.780 --> 02:12:34.609
Prices start at 250 up

3958
02:12:34.610 --> 02:12:36.259
to 500.

3959
02:12:36.260 --> 02:12:37.999
And and we did it.

3960
02:12:38.000 --> 02:12:39.499
And we'd like, we like you know ten

3961
02:12:39.500 --> 02:12:41.359
of us just did it with

3962
02:12:41.360 --> 02:12:43.219
our nails. How we say in Spanish

3963
02:12:43.220 --> 02:12:44.220
con lasagnas.

3964
02:12:45.440 --> 02:12:47.269
And it's up there and, and

3965
02:12:47.270 --> 02:12:49.099
it feels so good to be able

3966
02:12:49.100 --> 02:12:50.629
to operate in those both worlds

3967
02:12:50.630 --> 02:12:51.630
right under,

3968
02:12:52.790 --> 02:12:54.319
you know, with the incentives of

3969
02:12:54.320 --> 02:12:56.179
something like the post that allows

3970
02:12:56.180 --> 02:12:58.189
you to like, deeply

3971
02:12:58.190 --> 02:13:00.199
commit to something for five years

3972
02:13:00.200 --> 02:13:01.939
and to produce an exhibition and a

3973
02:13:01.940 --> 02:13:04.579
program and a book

3974
02:13:04.580 --> 02:13:07.009
and be exhausted and frustrated

3975
02:13:07.010 --> 02:13:08.010
to the

3976
02:13:09.140 --> 02:13:10.279
thing that we just did.

3977
02:13:10.280 --> 02:13:11.899
And, you know, because we felt we

3978
02:13:11.900 --> 02:13:13.849
needed to do something in

3979
02:13:13.850 --> 02:13:15.849
two weeks, and

3980
02:13:15.850 --> 02:13:17.560
we're still like trying to deal

3981
02:13:18.910 --> 02:13:19.989
with the aftermath.

3982
02:13:19.990 --> 02:13:22.059
So whoever wants this huge planks

3983
02:13:22.060 --> 02:13:24.129
of wood all needs

3984
02:13:24.130 --> 02:13:26.019
182 blocks of cinder

3985
02:13:26.020 --> 02:13:28.029
blocks. Please help us

3986
02:13:28.030 --> 02:13:30.399
pick us up tomorrow.

3987
02:13:30.400 --> 02:13:31.959
We're still dealing with what to do

3988
02:13:31.960 --> 02:13:33.589
with this leg after.

3989
02:13:33.590 --> 02:13:34.590
Yes.

3990
02:13:36.610 --> 02:13:38.679
Okay, well, that's a beautiful

3991
02:13:38.680 --> 02:13:40.179
fundraiser, and thank you for

3992
02:13:40.180 --> 02:13:40.989
organizing.

3993
02:13:40.990 --> 02:13:42.759
And that just is a testament to what

3994
02:13:42.760 --> 02:13:44.919
artists do.

3995
02:13:44.920 --> 02:13:47.559
And I'm always inspired by

3996
02:13:47.560 --> 02:13:49.719
artists not waiting.

3997
02:13:49.720 --> 02:13:52.269
And in the spectrum of time,

3998
02:13:52.270 --> 02:13:54.519
not waiting for their

3999
02:13:54.520 --> 02:13:56.769
gallery or their museum opportunity,

4000
02:13:56.770 --> 02:13:57.849
but to just do.

4001
02:13:58.870 --> 02:14:00.819
We have now, in our

4002
02:14:00.820 --> 02:14:02.799
time outrage

4003
02:14:02.800 --> 02:14:04.869
every 15 minutes.

4004
02:14:04.870 --> 02:14:06.069
What do you do with that?

4005
02:14:06.070 --> 02:14:08.109
You either shut down or you do

4006
02:14:08.110 --> 02:14:09.110
or you act.

4007
02:14:10.150 --> 02:14:12.009
And and back to that

4008
02:14:12.010 --> 02:14:14.079
idea of time slow or fast,

4009
02:14:15.310 --> 02:14:17.199
you know, and we have outrage and

4010
02:14:17.200 --> 02:14:18.200
anger and

4011
02:14:19.960 --> 02:14:21.939
helplessness like that student

4012
02:14:21.940 --> 02:14:22.940
had said,

4013
02:14:23.920 --> 02:14:26.649
we do need to take some time.

4014
02:14:26.650 --> 02:14:28.569
We have we we

4015
02:14:29.680 --> 02:14:31.509
as a museum, as an institutional

4016
02:14:31.510 --> 02:14:32.469
voice.

4017
02:14:32.470 --> 02:14:34.719
There is a sort of expectation,

4018
02:14:34.720 --> 02:14:36.609
right, to respond

4019
02:14:36.610 --> 02:14:38.409
and to present

4020
02:14:40.150 --> 02:14:41.260
for everyone.

4021
02:14:42.340 --> 02:14:44.679
And we

4022
02:14:44.680 --> 02:14:46.599
we need to take time, even as

4023
02:14:46.600 --> 02:14:48.819
a staff, to learn

4024
02:14:48.820 --> 02:14:51.279
and look at history and

4025
02:14:51.280 --> 02:14:53.799
talk to artists and talk to

4026
02:14:53.800 --> 02:14:55.419
ways to do things.

4027
02:14:55.420 --> 02:14:56.439
And that takes time.

4028
02:14:56.440 --> 02:14:58.509
And and it's hard because

4029
02:14:58.510 --> 02:15:00.279
against the expectations of social

4030
02:15:00.280 --> 02:15:02.289
media or just the public,

4031
02:15:02.290 --> 02:15:03.489
it's it's very difficult.

4032
02:15:03.490 --> 02:15:05.469
But you need to really

4033
02:15:05.470 --> 02:15:07.329
actually admit that you

4034
02:15:07.330 --> 02:15:08.529
need time.

4035
02:15:08.530 --> 02:15:10.389
And, and it's a

4036
02:15:10.390 --> 02:15:11.759
very enriching process.

4037
02:15:11.760 --> 02:15:13.589
It's a very I mean

4038
02:15:13.590 --> 02:15:15.359
it in the urgency.

4039
02:15:15.360 --> 02:15:17.009
You want it to happen way faster.

4040
02:15:17.010 --> 02:15:18.839
But history is

4041
02:15:18.840 --> 02:15:20.819
long and and we've

4042
02:15:20.820 --> 02:15:22.649
done amazing things and

4043
02:15:22.650 --> 02:15:24.599
we will continue to do amazing

4044
02:15:24.600 --> 02:15:25.600
things.

4045
02:15:27.000 --> 02:15:29.099
Okay. Thank you.

4046
02:15:29.100 --> 02:15:30.179
Alaska.

4047
02:15:30.180 --> 02:15:32.099
Thank you. Carolina.

4048
02:15:32.100 --> 02:15:34.379
So I think that's

4049
02:15:34.380 --> 02:15:35.669
it. Yeah.

4050
02:15:35.670 --> 02:15:37.589
We're we're just going

4051
02:15:37.590 --> 02:15:38.939
to start the Q&A.

4052
02:15:40.080 --> 02:15:41.760
But please first

4053
02:15:43.020 --> 02:15:44.939
thank you for your meal Janelle.

4054
02:15:48.690 --> 02:15:49.690
We Danielle.

4055
02:15:55.200 --> 02:15:57.389
So during Trump Trump 1.0

4056
02:15:57.390 --> 02:15:58.649
actually moved to Canada.

4057
02:15:59.790 --> 02:16:01.619
And I was there and

4058
02:16:01.620 --> 02:16:03.569
an institution right at

4059
02:16:03.570 --> 02:16:05.519
the same time when the Canadian

4060
02:16:05.520 --> 02:16:07.589
government was trying to implement,

4061
02:16:07.590 --> 02:16:09.839
they just completed the 94

4062
02:16:09.840 --> 02:16:11.909
Cause of action

4063
02:16:11.910 --> 02:16:12.929
as part of the Truth and

4064
02:16:12.930 --> 02:16:14.100
Reconciliation Commission.

4065
02:16:15.330 --> 02:16:17.219
I think I'm basically saying I am

4066
02:16:17.220 --> 02:16:20.129
a proud institutional agent

4067
02:16:20.130 --> 02:16:22.019
because change can happen,

4068
02:16:22.020 --> 02:16:23.699
because institutional leaders, if

4069
02:16:23.700 --> 02:16:25.709
there is alignment with public

4070
02:16:25.710 --> 02:16:27.629
will, can do many

4071
02:16:27.630 --> 02:16:29.039
things at once. And sometimes those

4072
02:16:29.040 --> 02:16:30.689
things are contradictory.

4073
02:16:30.690 --> 02:16:32.308
I sometimes see my role as harm

4074
02:16:32.309 --> 02:16:34.739
reduction, colonial harm reduction.

4075
02:16:34.740 --> 02:16:37.109
I see my role as spotlighting

4076
02:16:37.110 --> 02:16:39.449
content and and also

4077
02:16:39.450 --> 02:16:40.649
marshaling resources.

4078
02:16:40.650 --> 02:16:42.089
And I think sometimes that's what

4079
02:16:43.500 --> 02:16:44.429
to be brass tacks.

4080
02:16:44.430 --> 02:16:46.169
Like there needs to be an alignment

4081
02:16:46.170 --> 02:16:47.170
of all those things.

4082
02:16:48.750 --> 02:16:50.069
Just wanted to kind of provide that

4083
02:16:50.070 --> 02:16:51.070
context.

4084
02:16:52.080 --> 02:16:53.080
Thank you Stephen.

4085
02:16:55.230 --> 02:16:55.979
I also want to.

4086
02:16:55.980 --> 02:16:56.980
Add to that

4087
02:16:58.200 --> 02:17:00.329
to I've never work in institution

4088
02:17:00.330 --> 02:17:01.619
myself. And so I don't know the

4089
02:17:01.620 --> 02:17:03.628
depth on that, but meaning

4090
02:17:03.629 --> 02:17:04.739
like being an employee, an

4091
02:17:04.740 --> 02:17:06.208
institution, of course.

4092
02:17:06.209 --> 02:17:07.229
I have been working

4093
02:17:08.430 --> 02:17:10.589
For so many years now and

4094
02:17:10.590 --> 02:17:12.298
the exhibition and engagements like

4095
02:17:12.299 --> 02:17:13.138
this.

4096
02:17:13.139 --> 02:17:15.149
But I think institution can also

4097
02:17:15.150 --> 02:17:17.069
be a place of healing.

4098
02:17:17.070 --> 02:17:18.089
And whoever would like to

4099
02:17:18.090 --> 02:17:19.529
participate in that healing and

4100
02:17:19.530 --> 02:17:21.718
moving the narrative forward

4101
02:17:21.719 --> 02:17:22.979
can definitely participate.

4102
02:17:22.980 --> 02:17:25.979
I think in this room, everybody

4103
02:17:25.980 --> 02:17:28.019
is or not everybody,

4104
02:17:28.020 --> 02:17:29.968
but many are in a position of close

4105
02:17:29.969 --> 02:17:33.329
to even power, sometimes

4106
02:17:33.330 --> 02:17:35.339
right to where the decision makers

4107
02:17:35.340 --> 02:17:37.289
could help if they're choose

4108
02:17:37.290 --> 02:17:39.509
to, if and whatever narrative

4109
02:17:39.510 --> 02:17:41.729
they like to to move forward.

4110
02:17:41.730 --> 02:17:43.798
I think we could act

4111
02:17:43.799 --> 02:17:45.208
and we could, you know, take

4112
02:17:45.209 --> 02:17:47.329
responsibility from the space that

4113
02:17:47.330 --> 02:17:48.659
we're standing from.

4114
02:17:48.660 --> 02:17:51.058
And I see the beautiful exhibition

4115
02:17:51.059 --> 02:17:53.218
from, from Pablo out here.

4116
02:17:53.219 --> 02:17:55.048
And that is a

4117
02:17:55.049 --> 02:17:56.099
form of action and.

4118
02:17:56.100 --> 02:17:57.479
Moving the narrative forward,

4119
02:17:59.129 --> 02:18:00.129
I think.

4120
02:18:06.110 --> 02:18:07.579
I mean, I think institutions are

4121
02:18:07.580 --> 02:18:08.580
great

4122
02:18:09.770 --> 02:18:11.419
and I think the slowness is part of

4123
02:18:11.420 --> 02:18:12.619
their strength, right?

4124
02:18:12.620 --> 02:18:14.539
I mean, the thing is they they

4125
02:18:14.540 --> 02:18:15.739
are conservative.

4126
02:18:15.740 --> 02:18:17.749
They can serve things

4127
02:18:17.750 --> 02:18:20.539
right. They don't shift quickly.

4128
02:18:20.540 --> 02:18:22.429
They can be leveraged to do

4129
02:18:22.430 --> 02:18:24.468
things that are impossible if you

4130
02:18:24.469 --> 02:18:25.849
are groundless.

4131
02:18:25.850 --> 02:18:27.859
They provide they

4132
02:18:27.860 --> 02:18:30.289
route things in specifics,

4133
02:18:30.290 --> 02:18:32.149
and they also are a place where you

4134
02:18:32.150 --> 02:18:33.379
don't have to.

4135
02:18:35.750 --> 02:18:37.548
They they, they come inscribed with

4136
02:18:37.549 --> 02:18:39.138
power, which is which is what you

4137
02:18:39.139 --> 02:18:39.919
just said.

4138
02:18:39.920 --> 02:18:41.329
And that power is important.

4139
02:18:41.330 --> 02:18:43.099
And I think that there is a kind of

4140
02:18:43.100 --> 02:18:45.589
race to distance oneself from

4141
02:18:45.590 --> 02:18:47.509
centers of power, to claim that

4142
02:18:47.510 --> 02:18:48.499
they don't.

4143
02:18:48.500 --> 02:18:50.628
They're not real, but they are real

4144
02:18:50.629 --> 02:18:51.919
and they are dispersed.

4145
02:18:51.920 --> 02:18:53.839
And and these structures aren't

4146
02:18:53.840 --> 02:18:54.829
mysterious.

4147
02:18:54.830 --> 02:18:56.329
They're made of people that

4148
02:18:56.330 --> 02:18:57.289
replicate.

4149
02:18:57.290 --> 02:18:59.119
And the institutions only exist

4150
02:18:59.120 --> 02:18:59.958
with rules.

4151
02:18:59.959 --> 02:19:01.878
And and that's exactly why

4152
02:19:01.879 --> 02:19:04.159
I'd say this administration, which

4153
02:19:04.160 --> 02:19:06.048
is exhausting to talk about, but

4154
02:19:06.049 --> 02:19:07.429
because they break the rules,

4155
02:19:07.430 --> 02:19:09.409
they're that frustrating, right?

4156
02:19:09.410 --> 02:19:10.909
Because institutions start to

4157
02:19:10.910 --> 02:19:12.679
dissolve when they don't have rules.

4158
02:19:12.680 --> 02:19:14.509
They lose their conservatism.

4159
02:19:14.510 --> 02:19:16.399
They lose the slowness, and they

4160
02:19:16.400 --> 02:19:18.529
start becoming really scary

4161
02:19:18.530 --> 02:19:20.479
and broken and weird and

4162
02:19:20.480 --> 02:19:21.619
whatever, all those other

4163
02:19:21.620 --> 02:19:22.548
adjectives.

4164
02:19:22.549 --> 02:19:25.308
But I think there's this real,

4165
02:19:25.309 --> 02:19:27.048
you know, there's there's a it's

4166
02:19:27.049 --> 02:19:28.849
also recognizing that power, I

4167
02:19:28.850 --> 02:19:30.769
think, in being an institutional

4168
02:19:30.770 --> 02:19:33.079
actor and owning that and realizing

4169
02:19:33.080 --> 02:19:35.479
it's not outside of you, it's it's

4170
02:19:35.480 --> 02:19:37.279
in all of those structures.

4171
02:19:37.280 --> 02:19:38.839
And we build them for reasons.

4172
02:19:38.840 --> 02:19:40.638
Right? You know, we build them to

4173
02:19:40.639 --> 02:19:42.529
protect each other, and we affirm

4174
02:19:42.530 --> 02:19:44.749
them and we affirm them.

4175
02:19:44.750 --> 02:19:45.750
Yeah.

4176
02:19:48.530 --> 02:19:50.029
Other questions.

4177
02:19:50.030 --> 02:19:51.079
Oh. One more.

4178
02:19:58.760 --> 02:20:00.620
Thanks. I'm thinking a lot about

4179
02:20:02.390 --> 02:20:04.429
Permanence and fortification.

4180
02:20:04.430 --> 02:20:06.589
Not so much about speed, slowness,

4181
02:20:06.590 --> 02:20:08.449
or urgency, but about

4182
02:20:08.450 --> 02:20:10.279
how we might start

4183
02:20:10.280 --> 02:20:12.889
to rebuild foundations that aren't

4184
02:20:12.890 --> 02:20:14.719
so easily dismantled within a

4185
02:20:14.720 --> 02:20:15.799
space of a few weeks.

4186
02:20:15.800 --> 02:20:17.749
And I'm wondering how you might be

4187
02:20:17.750 --> 02:20:19.489
thinking or feeling about

4188
02:20:19.490 --> 02:20:21.169
foundation, permanence,

4189
02:20:21.170 --> 02:20:23.359
fortification, ways

4190
02:20:23.360 --> 02:20:25.189
of creating

4191
02:20:25.190 --> 02:20:26.719
structures, infrastructures,

4192
02:20:26.720 --> 02:20:28.759
institutions, art practices,

4193
02:20:28.760 --> 02:20:31.039
curatorial practices, ways that

4194
02:20:31.040 --> 02:20:32.929
or maybe not so flimsy.

4195
02:20:32.930 --> 02:20:34.909
And that's not to dismiss the work

4196
02:20:34.910 --> 02:20:36.289
that's been done over the past ten,

4197
02:20:36.290 --> 02:20:38.149
20 years, but also

4198
02:20:38.150 --> 02:20:39.150
I'm worried.

4199
02:20:45.110 --> 02:20:46.769
The excavation of Judas coal

4200
02:20:46.770 --> 02:20:48.289
foundations.

4201
02:20:48.290 --> 02:20:49.219
Precisely.

4202
02:20:49.220 --> 02:20:50.220
And.

4203
02:20:51.800 --> 02:20:53.450
I don't have a specific answer.

4204
02:20:54.590 --> 02:20:56.809
Maybe I just want to share that

4205
02:20:56.810 --> 02:20:59.479
and to give more context of largely

4206
02:20:59.480 --> 02:21:01.779
all the the benefit of the sales

4207
02:21:01.780 --> 02:21:03.459
of these stones that other artists

4208
02:21:03.460 --> 02:21:04.460
have generously

4209
02:21:06.310 --> 02:21:08.379
donated are going

4210
02:21:08.380 --> 02:21:10.029
to Altadena.

4211
02:21:10.030 --> 02:21:12.069
Families who are undocumented or

4212
02:21:12.070 --> 02:21:14.019
who do not have access

4213
02:21:14.020 --> 02:21:15.020
to.

4214
02:21:16.240 --> 02:21:18.129
Yeah. To the to the channels of

4215
02:21:18.130 --> 02:21:20.109
help that other

4216
02:21:20.110 --> 02:21:21.039
people do have.

4217
02:21:21.040 --> 02:21:22.929
So I wanted to give that

4218
02:21:22.930 --> 02:21:24.759
and we have talked

4219
02:21:24.760 --> 02:21:26.649
about how this is a first step and

4220
02:21:26.650 --> 02:21:28.899
the first moment of our collective

4221
02:21:28.900 --> 02:21:29.900
of La Juda.

4222
02:21:30.700 --> 02:21:32.529
Other stuff that we worked on

4223
02:21:32.530 --> 02:21:34.779
was to create printed

4224
02:21:34.780 --> 02:21:36.729
matter, with

4225
02:21:36.730 --> 02:21:38.709
recommendations on how to deal

4226
02:21:38.710 --> 02:21:40.629
with ash and how to clean, and

4227
02:21:40.630 --> 02:21:42.159
how to deal with the toxicity of the

4228
02:21:42.160 --> 02:21:44.049
air right now in L.A., and

4229
02:21:44.050 --> 02:21:45.909
also how to deal with

4230
02:21:45.910 --> 02:21:47.619
Ice specifically.

4231
02:21:47.620 --> 02:21:49.509
So and

4232
02:21:49.510 --> 02:21:51.969
we have talked how how

4233
02:21:51.970 --> 02:21:54.159
to keep on and how to organize

4234
02:21:54.160 --> 02:21:56.349
in the long run so that that

4235
02:21:56.350 --> 02:21:57.399
we don't know how this is going to

4236
02:21:57.400 --> 02:21:59.289
take shape. But we are

4237
02:21:59.290 --> 02:22:00.849
all of us have different backgrounds

4238
02:22:00.850 --> 02:22:02.799
and organizing, and somehow so

4239
02:22:02.800 --> 02:22:03.999
we have different strengths and I'm

4240
02:22:04.000 --> 02:22:06.219
sure great things

4241
02:22:06.220 --> 02:22:08.199
or maybe not

4242
02:22:08.200 --> 02:22:10.059
so visible things can

4243
02:22:10.060 --> 02:22:11.439
happen.

4244
02:22:11.440 --> 02:22:13.209
I believe also in the in the

4245
02:22:13.210 --> 02:22:15.009
invisibility of action too.

4246
02:22:15.010 --> 02:22:17.049
Sometimes the stuff that

4247
02:22:17.050 --> 02:22:18.789
really matters sometimes is not that

4248
02:22:18.790 --> 02:22:20.079
visible.

4249
02:22:20.080 --> 02:22:21.909
Sometimes the the most hard work you

4250
02:22:21.910 --> 02:22:23.829
do as an artist or as a curator is

4251
02:22:23.830 --> 02:22:25.269
not visible to.

4252
02:22:25.270 --> 02:22:26.889
So how to acknowledge that?

4253
02:22:28.180 --> 02:22:29.529
And maybe it doesn't have to be

4254
02:22:29.530 --> 02:22:31.389
accounted for, but we know we did

4255
02:22:31.390 --> 02:22:33.219
that. And that's important also to

4256
02:22:33.220 --> 02:22:34.839
acknowledge and to be considerate to

4257
02:22:34.840 --> 02:22:36.789
ourselves that we put a lot

4258
02:22:36.790 --> 02:22:38.769
of work and a lot of that is not

4259
02:22:38.770 --> 02:22:39.969
visible.

4260
02:22:39.970 --> 02:22:41.439
It's just when you do like a work of

4261
02:22:41.440 --> 02:22:43.090
art or when you're writing a book.

4262
02:22:45.400 --> 02:22:47.049
Most of the work doesn't end in the

4263
02:22:47.050 --> 02:22:48.429
final product.

4264
02:22:48.430 --> 02:22:49.430
That's fine too.

4265
02:22:51.310 --> 02:22:52.659
But maybe I rest a little bit

4266
02:22:52.660 --> 02:22:53.589
anyways.

4267
02:22:53.590 --> 02:22:55.509
You know, and there's also,

4268
02:22:55.510 --> 02:22:56.979
you know, a robust history of

4269
02:22:56.980 --> 02:22:59.089
resistance, Right.

4270
02:22:59.090 --> 02:23:01.029
And and

4271
02:23:01.030 --> 02:23:03.100
these, these issues,

4272
02:23:04.990 --> 02:23:07.029
you know, there is many occurrences

4273
02:23:07.030 --> 02:23:09.069
where people have

4274
02:23:09.070 --> 02:23:10.839
answered or addressed these these

4275
02:23:10.840 --> 02:23:11.649
issues.

4276
02:23:11.650 --> 02:23:12.939
Yeah.

4277
02:23:12.940 --> 02:23:15.069
So, you know, we're not alone,

4278
02:23:15.070 --> 02:23:16.070
you know.

4279
02:23:20.680 --> 02:23:21.680
Yes.

4280
02:23:24.790 --> 02:23:27.279
Not an artist, not a curator.

4281
02:23:27.280 --> 02:23:27.909
I work for.

4282
02:23:27.910 --> 02:23:28.910
Curators.

4283
02:23:32.050 --> 02:23:33.669
It was really interesting to.

4284
02:23:33.670 --> 02:23:36.189
Listen to ask Pablo,

4285
02:23:36.190 --> 02:23:38.139
you know, from the curatorial

4286
02:23:38.140 --> 02:23:40.089
practices through the

4287
02:23:40.090 --> 02:23:42.129
very different ways for ICA and for

4288
02:23:42.130 --> 02:23:44.199
hammer is the first time

4289
02:23:44.200 --> 02:23:46.269
I thought, you know, my bosses

4290
02:23:46.270 --> 02:23:47.709
are all curators because I do

4291
02:23:47.710 --> 02:23:49.269
exhibition design.

4292
02:23:49.270 --> 02:23:51.279
So my job is to

4293
02:23:51.280 --> 02:23:54.219
translate your career narrative.

4294
02:23:54.220 --> 02:23:55.569
But at the same time, I never

4295
02:23:55.570 --> 02:23:57.419
thought of you guys as potential

4296
02:23:57.420 --> 02:23:59.249
instigating agents

4297
02:23:59.250 --> 02:24:01.079
for Korea, for

4298
02:24:01.080 --> 02:24:02.159
institutional

4299
02:24:03.810 --> 02:24:05.699
critique, which I

4300
02:24:05.700 --> 02:24:07.769
think, Pablo, you're suggesting

4301
02:24:07.770 --> 02:24:09.749
because you talked about the kind

4302
02:24:09.750 --> 02:24:11.189
of white standard by which

4303
02:24:11.190 --> 02:24:13.079
everything else is

4304
02:24:13.080 --> 02:24:14.609
seen through.

4305
02:24:14.610 --> 02:24:17.219
And I'm wondering, how does some

4306
02:24:17.220 --> 02:24:18.240
institution

4307
02:24:19.410 --> 02:24:22.019
and gender or even act

4308
02:24:22.020 --> 02:24:23.879
and produce institutional

4309
02:24:23.880 --> 02:24:24.959
critique within.

4310
02:24:27.360 --> 02:24:29.699
Its art an agency powerful

4311
02:24:29.700 --> 02:24:30.989
enough.

4312
02:24:30.990 --> 02:24:32.969
That can participate

4313
02:24:32.970 --> 02:24:34.589
in that process?

4314
02:24:34.590 --> 02:24:35.129
Well, you.

4315
02:24:35.130 --> 02:24:36.899
Talked about this kind of commune,

4316
02:24:36.900 --> 02:24:38.909
Sense8 sort of kind

4317
02:24:38.910 --> 02:24:41.279
of bringing that space together

4318
02:24:41.280 --> 02:24:43.379
for people to really

4319
02:24:43.380 --> 02:24:45.329
dig deep into that kind

4320
02:24:45.330 --> 02:24:46.469
of art experience.

4321
02:24:47.610 --> 02:24:49.739
I'm just wondering if there is.

4322
02:24:49.740 --> 02:24:50.909
You know, you guys talked about

4323
02:24:50.910 --> 02:24:52.289
brass tacks.

4324
02:24:52.290 --> 02:24:55.289
How do you guys participate

4325
02:24:55.290 --> 02:24:57.239
or instigate your own

4326
02:24:57.240 --> 02:24:58.560
institutional critique?

4327
02:25:04.680 --> 02:25:05.999
Yeah, I can say something about

4328
02:25:06.000 --> 02:25:07.000
that.

4329
02:25:09.990 --> 02:25:11.099
With with an example.

4330
02:25:11.100 --> 02:25:11.879
Probably.

4331
02:25:11.880 --> 02:25:12.880
So

4332
02:25:14.400 --> 02:25:16.349
I was saying that in a way

4333
02:25:16.350 --> 02:25:19.199
I think that it's important to.

4334
02:25:19.200 --> 02:25:20.639
And speaking and thinking as a

4335
02:25:20.640 --> 02:25:22.919
curator to go back to the art object

4336
02:25:22.920 --> 02:25:25.079
and to remember that

4337
02:25:25.080 --> 02:25:27.449
our in the end, ultimately

4338
02:25:27.450 --> 02:25:28.739
art is the ones that are

4339
02:25:30.390 --> 02:25:32.249
kind of like out there doing the

4340
02:25:32.250 --> 02:25:34.469
things. And we,

4341
02:25:34.470 --> 02:25:36.329
you know, we we are close,

4342
02:25:36.330 --> 02:25:38.189
we catch up, we write about these,

4343
02:25:38.190 --> 02:25:39.869
we do shows.

4344
02:25:39.870 --> 02:25:41.759
And one of the questions is how we

4345
02:25:41.760 --> 02:25:43.799
can somehow translate to the best

4346
02:25:43.800 --> 02:25:44.800
of our abilities,

4347
02:25:45.960 --> 02:25:47.849
the kind of like art experience into

4348
02:25:47.850 --> 02:25:48.839
an the space. Right.

4349
02:25:48.840 --> 02:25:50.589
That's the is the question of space

4350
02:25:50.590 --> 02:25:52.679
and people

4351
02:25:52.680 --> 02:25:54.059
and objects interacting.

4352
02:25:55.170 --> 02:25:57.059
And this makes me think, and

4353
02:25:57.060 --> 02:25:58.739
I mentioned this a couple of times

4354
02:25:58.740 --> 02:25:59.729
before.

4355
02:25:59.730 --> 02:26:01.679
So when I was a Tate in

4356
02:26:01.680 --> 02:26:04.049
2020,

4357
02:26:04.050 --> 02:26:05.879
I believe there was

4358
02:26:05.880 --> 02:26:07.739
this work by Maya classical

4359
02:26:07.740 --> 02:26:09.899
artists at work in presenter

4360
02:26:09.900 --> 02:26:11.189
Frieze London.

4361
02:26:11.190 --> 02:26:13.109
It has an acquisition form

4362
02:26:13.110 --> 02:26:14.939
and they acquire with every

4363
02:26:14.940 --> 02:26:16.799
year they acquire works.

4364
02:26:16.800 --> 02:26:18.479
These were maybe you've seen it

4365
02:26:18.480 --> 02:26:21.269
where a set of stones,

4366
02:26:21.270 --> 02:26:23.759
like with cut fruit on top.

4367
02:26:23.760 --> 02:26:25.709
So you would see how like

4368
02:26:25.710 --> 02:26:27.299
the fruit would kind of like rot.

4369
02:26:27.300 --> 02:26:29.610
And on top of the stones

4370
02:26:31.320 --> 02:26:33.579
and on the walls, on the booth by

4371
02:26:33.580 --> 02:26:34.799
the letter, there were these

4372
02:26:34.800 --> 02:26:36.629
drawings, the representation of the

4373
02:26:36.630 --> 02:26:37.469
stones.

4374
02:26:37.470 --> 02:26:39.299
What was on sale were the drawings,

4375
02:26:39.300 --> 02:26:40.559
not the stones.

4376
02:26:40.560 --> 02:26:42.689
And obviously it was very beautiful

4377
02:26:42.690 --> 02:26:44.369
and seductive and everyone wanted to

4378
02:26:44.370 --> 02:26:45.629
buy it, especially because it was

4379
02:26:45.630 --> 02:26:46.680
not on sale, I guess.

4380
02:26:47.940 --> 02:26:50.009
And the

4381
02:26:50.010 --> 02:26:51.889
the idea was or the question was

4382
02:26:51.890 --> 02:26:54.229
how? If they

4383
02:26:54.230 --> 02:26:56.209
would acquire these, what would

4384
02:26:56.210 --> 02:26:57.079
it mean?

4385
02:26:57.080 --> 02:26:59.329
So I know

4386
02:26:59.330 --> 02:27:01.339
a got for many, many years we worked

4387
02:27:01.340 --> 02:27:02.749
together and then at some point we

4388
02:27:02.750 --> 02:27:05.299
sat together with the gallery, Edgar

4389
02:27:05.300 --> 02:27:07.909
and Tate, and

4390
02:27:07.910 --> 02:27:09.889
we thought that there

4391
02:27:09.890 --> 02:27:11.969
could be a model where the museum

4392
02:27:11.970 --> 02:27:14.029
could not acquire the work

4393
02:27:14.030 --> 02:27:16.219
but act as a custodian

4394
02:27:16.220 --> 02:27:18.319
of the piece, which means that

4395
02:27:18.320 --> 02:27:20.629
the piece would be at the Tate

4396
02:27:20.630 --> 02:27:22.579
for 12 years and

4397
02:27:22.580 --> 02:27:24.439
12. In reference to the cycles

4398
02:27:24.440 --> 02:27:25.729
of the Mayan calendar.

4399
02:27:25.730 --> 02:27:27.469
There are two kind of big branches

4400
02:27:27.470 --> 02:27:28.939
of the Mayan calendar the sacred and

4401
02:27:28.940 --> 02:27:30.799
the kind of harvest calendar.

4402
02:27:30.800 --> 02:27:32.689
So 13 energies and

4403
02:27:32.690 --> 02:27:33.979
13 cycles.

4404
02:27:33.980 --> 02:27:36.079
So after the 13 years,

4405
02:27:36.080 --> 02:27:38.209
the work would be either given

4406
02:27:38.210 --> 02:27:39.889
back to Earth or passed on to

4407
02:27:39.890 --> 02:27:41.299
another institution.

4408
02:27:41.300 --> 02:27:43.579
So that was the first case,

4409
02:27:43.580 --> 02:27:46.249
as far as I know, of a global museum

4410
02:27:46.250 --> 02:27:48.409
having a work in a custodianship,

4411
02:27:48.410 --> 02:27:50.239
which means it was not the

4412
02:27:50.240 --> 02:27:52.069
owner, but the community was

4413
02:27:52.070 --> 02:27:52.879
still the owner.

4414
02:27:52.880 --> 02:27:54.289
And the question there is like, what

4415
02:27:54.290 --> 02:27:55.729
is the state is acquiring?

4416
02:27:55.730 --> 02:27:57.769
Is it not the stones because

4417
02:27:57.770 --> 02:27:58.939
they are collected? Depending on

4418
02:27:58.940 --> 02:28:00.499
where the piece is presented, the

4419
02:28:00.500 --> 02:28:02.389
fruit is changed every couple

4420
02:28:02.390 --> 02:28:03.229
of weeks.

4421
02:28:03.230 --> 02:28:04.969
So but it is not a performance that

4422
02:28:04.970 --> 02:28:06.619
is not like an activation, like an

4423
02:28:06.620 --> 02:28:07.969
action of a body there.

4424
02:28:07.970 --> 02:28:09.799
So I

4425
02:28:09.800 --> 02:28:11.179
mean, you could say, I guess that it

4426
02:28:11.180 --> 02:28:13.219
was knowledge what the museum

4427
02:28:13.220 --> 02:28:15.019
was in custodianship of.

4428
02:28:15.020 --> 02:28:16.969
And, you know, like

4429
02:28:16.970 --> 02:28:18.769
everything sounds like really good

4430
02:28:18.770 --> 02:28:20.089
and it was interesting on itself and

4431
02:28:20.090 --> 02:28:22.309
so on. But the challenge

4432
02:28:22.310 --> 02:28:24.499
was when the legal department

4433
02:28:24.500 --> 02:28:26.209
of State was trying to figure out

4434
02:28:26.210 --> 02:28:27.739
what to do with this piece, there

4435
02:28:27.740 --> 02:28:28.849
was a custodianship.

4436
02:28:28.850 --> 02:28:30.199
So it's not an ownership.

4437
02:28:30.200 --> 02:28:31.549
What it means for a museum that has

4438
02:28:31.550 --> 02:28:33.259
been collecting for so many years to

4439
02:28:33.260 --> 02:28:34.669
have something that doesn't, that

4440
02:28:34.670 --> 02:28:35.719
cannot own.

4441
02:28:35.720 --> 02:28:37.789
And what kind of relationship then

4442
02:28:37.790 --> 02:28:39.319
should be established in

4443
02:28:39.320 --> 02:28:40.489
relationship, not just to the

4444
02:28:40.490 --> 02:28:42.439
artist, but to the Maya communities?

4445
02:28:42.440 --> 02:28:43.729
In what language is the contract

4446
02:28:43.730 --> 02:28:45.169
should be, etcetera, right.

4447
02:28:45.170 --> 02:28:46.999
So that kind of

4448
02:28:47.000 --> 02:28:48.079
destabilized Destabilize the

4449
02:28:48.080 --> 02:28:49.489
institution in that moment a little

4450
02:28:49.490 --> 02:28:51.409
bit, and it kind of forced.

4451
02:28:51.410 --> 02:28:53.299
To rethink and change some

4452
02:28:53.300 --> 02:28:54.829
of the institutional protocols when

4453
02:28:54.830 --> 02:28:56.569
it comes to acquisitions and to

4454
02:28:56.570 --> 02:28:59.089
think the very idea of ownership.

4455
02:28:59.090 --> 02:29:00.949
And that was done not by a

4456
02:29:00.950 --> 02:29:02.689
curator, not by a show, but it was

4457
02:29:02.690 --> 02:29:04.729
by it was owned by the art object.

4458
02:29:04.730 --> 02:29:07.009
It was the art object itself,

4459
02:29:07.010 --> 02:29:08.569
I mean, created by a person.

4460
02:29:08.570 --> 02:29:10.789
But it's collective knowledge.

4461
02:29:10.790 --> 02:29:12.649
So I do think

4462
02:29:12.650 --> 02:29:14.089
that there are as this a there are

4463
02:29:14.090 --> 02:29:16.099
so many other practices that can,

4464
02:29:16.100 --> 02:29:17.809
again, kind of push the boundaries

4465
02:29:17.810 --> 02:29:19.759
of what we've thought as a kind of

4466
02:29:19.760 --> 02:29:20.749
institutional theory.

4467
02:29:20.750 --> 02:29:22.039
And that on itself is

4468
02:29:22.040 --> 02:29:23.040
transformative.

4469
02:29:25.220 --> 02:29:26.149
Okay.

4470
02:29:26.150 --> 02:29:27.150
Do I have time?

4471
02:29:28.040 --> 02:29:29.659
I have a number of stories.

4472
02:29:29.660 --> 02:29:31.459
So I've been with this institution

4473
02:29:31.460 --> 02:29:32.460
for a long time. But

4474
02:29:33.650 --> 02:29:35.899
for those of you who don't know,

4475
02:29:35.900 --> 02:29:37.519
we are a museum.

4476
02:29:37.520 --> 02:29:38.599
We've been the Institute of

4477
02:29:38.600 --> 02:29:39.889
Contemporary Art, Los Angeles for

4478
02:29:39.890 --> 02:29:41.659
about seven years, having opened our

4479
02:29:41.660 --> 02:29:43.489
space in downtown L.A.

4480
02:29:43.490 --> 02:29:46.089
in the Arts District in 2017,

4481
02:29:46.090 --> 02:29:47.949
However, we were a museum by

4482
02:29:47.950 --> 02:29:49.479
another name, the Santa Monica

4483
02:29:49.480 --> 02:29:52.689
museum of Art, founded in 1988.

4484
02:29:52.690 --> 02:29:54.669
So we will be nearly 40

4485
02:29:54.670 --> 02:29:55.629
years old.

4486
02:29:55.630 --> 02:29:57.339
I like to say that we're fresh with

4487
02:29:57.340 --> 02:30:00.159
experience, and

4488
02:30:00.160 --> 02:30:02.469
we when we closed

4489
02:30:02.470 --> 02:30:04.389
our space in Bergamot Station in

4490
02:30:04.390 --> 02:30:05.890
2015.

4491
02:30:08.380 --> 02:30:10.149
It was a bit touch and go.

4492
02:30:10.150 --> 02:30:12.009
We didn't know if

4493
02:30:12.010 --> 02:30:13.089
we would continue in.

4494
02:30:13.090 --> 02:30:15.699
To your point about fragility

4495
02:30:15.700 --> 02:30:17.949
or impermanence and

4496
02:30:17.950 --> 02:30:19.779
and I and I was actually part of

4497
02:30:19.780 --> 02:30:21.579
the team that helped, that stayed

4498
02:30:21.580 --> 02:30:23.499
and helped bring it to downtown.

4499
02:30:23.500 --> 02:30:25.359
But it was an idea that

4500
02:30:25.360 --> 02:30:27.249
maybe we had a good run and that was

4501
02:30:27.250 --> 02:30:29.230
it. And we have a history.

4502
02:30:31.360 --> 02:30:34.389
But we have an artist council

4503
02:30:34.390 --> 02:30:35.559
and Carolyn is on our artist

4504
02:30:35.560 --> 02:30:37.209
council. So the.

4505
02:30:39.360 --> 02:30:41.769
It's we have this

4506
02:30:41.770 --> 02:30:43.719
amazing group of advisors of

4507
02:30:43.720 --> 02:30:46.180
artists who who recognized

4508
02:30:47.200 --> 02:30:49.179
that we have a

4509
02:30:49.180 --> 02:30:50.290
strength and

4510
02:30:52.270 --> 02:30:53.349
a reason to be.

4511
02:30:53.350 --> 02:30:55.779
We're actually the only museum

4512
02:30:55.780 --> 02:30:58.149
of our size in LA

4513
02:30:58.150 --> 02:31:00.159
and we're non collecting, so

4514
02:31:00.160 --> 02:31:02.189
we don't have a collection to care

4515
02:31:02.190 --> 02:31:03.009
take.

4516
02:31:03.010 --> 02:31:04.869
So the idea that our

4517
02:31:04.870 --> 02:31:07.029
museum would continue on.

4518
02:31:07.030 --> 02:31:09.279
How do you how do you fundraise

4519
02:31:09.280 --> 02:31:11.319
for that. We we we

4520
02:31:11.320 --> 02:31:12.519
don't have a building.

4521
02:31:12.520 --> 02:31:13.749
We didn't have any assets.

4522
02:31:13.750 --> 02:31:14.829
We didn't have a collection.

4523
02:31:14.830 --> 02:31:16.029
We didn't have a building we didn't

4524
02:31:16.030 --> 02:31:18.729
have. We just had our history

4525
02:31:18.730 --> 02:31:20.709
and our brain trust, like

4526
02:31:20.710 --> 02:31:23.349
the people who were still remaining.

4527
02:31:23.350 --> 02:31:25.089
And even just the handful of board

4528
02:31:25.090 --> 02:31:26.799
members that that still believed in

4529
02:31:26.800 --> 02:31:28.479
us. And then we proposed an idea to

4530
02:31:28.480 --> 02:31:29.499
go downtown.

4531
02:31:29.500 --> 02:31:31.449
So that was a bit of

4532
02:31:31.450 --> 02:31:33.759
institutional reckoning

4533
02:31:33.760 --> 02:31:35.649
and thinking about, do we

4534
02:31:35.650 --> 02:31:37.599
continue on and is it a value.

4535
02:31:37.600 --> 02:31:39.639
And as a non collecting

4536
02:31:39.640 --> 02:31:41.469
model, do you continue.

4537
02:31:41.470 --> 02:31:43.299
And it came from the artist that

4538
02:31:43.300 --> 02:31:45.639
said, you actually have

4539
02:31:45.640 --> 02:31:48.129
a particular role in this city

4540
02:31:48.130 --> 02:31:50.049
as a museum of your size,

4541
02:31:50.050 --> 02:31:52.449
to do art work,

4542
02:31:52.450 --> 02:31:54.279
art exhibitions and programs

4543
02:31:54.280 --> 02:31:55.959
of a certain caliber.

4544
02:31:55.960 --> 02:31:58.509
And hence we continued on.

4545
02:31:58.510 --> 02:31:59.619
And that's been an interesting

4546
02:31:59.620 --> 02:32:01.629
thing. And, you know, we have

4547
02:32:01.630 --> 02:32:03.609
examples of exhibitions of

4548
02:32:03.610 --> 02:32:05.289
institutional critique like the

4549
02:32:05.290 --> 02:32:07.480
Michael Ascher exhibition.

4550
02:32:08.770 --> 02:32:09.770
And.

4551
02:32:12.160 --> 02:32:14.410
We've also just looked at ourselves.

4552
02:32:16.930 --> 02:32:19.089
We have Andrea Frazier on our

4553
02:32:19.090 --> 02:32:20.109
board.

4554
02:32:20.110 --> 02:32:21.759
So that gets us to think about

4555
02:32:21.760 --> 02:32:23.739
things, even

4556
02:32:23.740 --> 02:32:26.079
fundraising models.

4557
02:32:26.080 --> 02:32:27.999
We had a very beautiful attempt at

4558
02:32:28.000 --> 02:32:29.949
having a museum for the people

4559
02:32:29.950 --> 02:32:32.169
with a membership drive

4560
02:32:32.170 --> 02:32:34.149
that was to imagine

4561
02:32:34.150 --> 02:32:36.129
that everyone would

4562
02:32:36.130 --> 02:32:38.739
fund the museum, not just

4563
02:32:38.740 --> 02:32:39.740
the most.

4564
02:32:40.830 --> 02:32:42.840
Well, well see.

4565
02:32:43.890 --> 02:32:45.419
And that we'd had one membership

4566
02:32:45.420 --> 02:32:47.549
price and we'd have to raise

4567
02:32:47.550 --> 02:32:49.559
60,000 memberships for that

4568
02:32:49.560 --> 02:32:51.329
price in order to run the museum

4569
02:32:51.330 --> 02:32:52.199
every year.

4570
02:32:52.200 --> 02:32:53.789
So that was a really beautiful

4571
02:32:53.790 --> 02:32:56.249
utopian idea of

4572
02:32:56.250 --> 02:32:57.869
running a museum.

4573
02:32:57.870 --> 02:32:59.699
And yeah, there have

4574
02:32:59.700 --> 02:33:01.080
been many examples of us,

4575
02:33:02.280 --> 02:33:05.159
you know, trying to address

4576
02:33:05.160 --> 02:33:07.289
what it is to be a museum,

4577
02:33:07.290 --> 02:33:08.910
and we'll continue to do so.

4578
02:33:10.290 --> 02:33:11.549
Just imagine a museum.

4579
02:33:11.550 --> 02:33:12.959
I imagine a museum without, you

4580
02:33:12.960 --> 02:33:14.159
know, walls and going into the

4581
02:33:14.160 --> 02:33:16.019
community all the time.

4582
02:33:16.020 --> 02:33:17.020
So

4583
02:33:17.880 --> 02:33:18.880
there you go.

4584
02:33:20.880 --> 02:33:22.469
Okay. Thanks, Haskell.

4585
02:33:22.470 --> 02:33:23.470
You're welcome.

4586
02:33:24.060 --> 02:33:26.069
I think that's it.

4587
02:33:27.360 --> 02:33:29.519
Thank you, everyone, for coming.

4588
02:33:29.520 --> 02:33:30.629
Thank you. Thank you.

4589
02:33:30.630 --> 02:33:33.029
And thank you to our

4590
02:33:33.030 --> 02:33:34.909
lovely panelists.

4591
02:33:34.910 --> 02:33:35.910
Thank you.