WEBVTT

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Hi, everyone. Welcome to the Billy

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Wilder Theater. I'm Claudia Bestor.

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I'm the director of public programs

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here at the Hammer Museum.

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And it's my pleasure to welcome you

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all for tonight's Hammer forum

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on the upcoming presidential

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election.

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The Hammer Forum is a monthly series

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of discussions about current social

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and political issues and is made

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possible with the generous support

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of the Rosenbloom Family Foundation.

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And I also want to thank our

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wonderful Co-presenters the

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Safeguarding Democracy Project at

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UCLA School of Law.

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Tonight, we have a thought provoking

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discussion that will question the

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risks that come with the acceptance

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of election results and

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peaceful transition of power between

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Election Day, November 5th

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and January 6th, when Congress

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counts the state's Electoral College

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votes, for example.

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Will there be delays in reporting

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about vote totals?

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Probably so.

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And if so, will it undermine the

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public's confidence in election

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results regardless of how well the

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election is administered?

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Before we dive into tonight's

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discussion, I'd like to highlight

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some other upcoming programs we have

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planned On Tuesday,

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October 22nd, we have a program with

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an oceanographer, a

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glaciologist and an artist

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who works with both of them,

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discussing the impact of climate

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change on icebergs and how it will

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affect ocean salinity,

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temperature, currents, weather

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and animal and plant life in the

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near future.

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And then I hope you'll join me in

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casting your ballot at the Hammer.

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The Hammer will be a voting center

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from November 2nd to November 5th.

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So come and vote and enjoy the

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museum.

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If you'd like to stay updated on our

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upcoming programs and events, please

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sign up for our newsletter on our

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website or you can do it out in the

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theater lobby.

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Now, I'm delighted to introduce our

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distinguished guests for tonight's

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conversation Larry Diamond, Ben

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Ginsburg, Rachel Kleinfeld, Franita

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Tolson, and our moderator, Rick

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Hasen.

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Larry Diamond is a senior fellow in

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global democracy at the Freeman

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Spogli Institute for International

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Studies, where he leads the program

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on Arab reform and democracy

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based at the Center on Democracy,

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Development and the Rule of Law,

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which he directed for more than six

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years.

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He's also a professor by courtesy

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of political science and sociology

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at Stanford University, where he's

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also been recognized for his

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extraordinary contributions to

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undergraduate education.

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In addition, he's a fellow at the

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Hoover Institution, where he

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co-chairs programs on China's

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global sharp power and

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on Taiwan in the Indo-Pacific

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region.

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And he's the author of

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Ill Winds Saving Democracy

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from Russian Rage, Chinese Ambition

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and American Complacency.

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That Means us.

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Ben Ginsberg is a nationally

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known political law advocate who

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represents participants in the

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political process.

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His clients have included political

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parties, political campaigns,

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candidates, members of Congress

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and state legislators,

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legislatures, governors,

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corporations, trade associations,

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PACs, vendors, donors

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and individuals.

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He represented four of the last

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six presidents last six

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Republican presidential nominees.

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His representations ranged across

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a variety of election law and

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regulatory issues, including voting

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issues and elections, federal

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and state campaign finance laws,

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recounts and contests,

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government investigations, election

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administration and redistricting.

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He served as national

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counsel to the 2002

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thousand for Bush-Cheney

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presidential campaigns and played

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a central role in the 2000

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Florida recount.

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We all remember maybe

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not the youngest in the audience.

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I remember it very well.

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Ginsburg also served as co-chair of

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the Bipartisan Presidential

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Commission on Election

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Administration, which produced a

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very well-received report on best

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practices and recommendations for

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state and local officials to make

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U.S. elections run better.

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Dr. Rachel Kleinfeld advises

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governments, philanthropists and

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activists on how democracies make

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major social change.

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As a senior fellow at the Carnegie

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Endowment for International Peace.

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She's a leading expert on how

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democracies, including the United

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States, can improve with a

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particular focus on countries facing

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poor leadership, polarized

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populations, violence and

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corruption.

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Kleinfields work focuses on the

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intersection of democracy and

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security.

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She regularly briefs the governments

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of the United States and allied

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democracies on issues of policing,

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security sector reform, the rule

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of law and improving climate

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conflict.

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And she's also consulted for

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international organizations such as

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the European Union, OECD

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and the World Bank.

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She's a senior advisor to the

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Democracy Funders Network and is a

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member of the National Task Force

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on Election Crises in the United

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States.

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Franita Tolson is the chair of USC's

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Gould School of Law.

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She also holds a faculty appointment

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at USC's Political science

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and international relations

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department.

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Her scholarship and teaching focus

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on the areas of election law,

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constitutional law, legal history

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and employment discrimination.

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She has written on a wide range

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of topics, including partisan

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gerrymandering, political

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parties, the elections clause,

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the Voting Rights Act of 1965

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and the 14th and 15th Amendments.

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Tolson is one of the coauthors of

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the leading Election Law Casebook,

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The Law of Democracy Now!

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In its sixth edition.

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Her forthcoming book, in Congress We

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Trust Question Mark Enforcing

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Voting Rights from the Founding to

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the Jim Crow Era will be

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published by Cambridge University

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Press.

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Tolson has testified before Congress

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numerous times on voting rights

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issues. She's also authored

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a legal analysis for an amendment

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to the U.S. Constitution

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introduced by Senator Elizabeth

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Warren and Senator Richard Durbin

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that would explicitly protect the

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right to vote.

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I have managed to.

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Accidentally to read the

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introduction for Rick Hasen, so I'm

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going to win it.

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Rick Hasen is an internationally

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renowned expert on election law

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issues.

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He is a professor

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here at UCLA School of Law

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and the founder of the Safeguarding

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Democracy Project.

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He's written for every major law

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journal and is extremely

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involved in election law.

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But I don't have the precise details

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in front of me at this moment.

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Trust me, he's fantastic.

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So after tonight's discussion,

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we'll have a chance to continue the

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conversation over some light

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refreshments out in the lobby and

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invite you all to join us there.

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Now, please join me in welcoming

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Larry Diamond, Ben Ginsburg,

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Rachel Kleinfeld, Franita Tolson,

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and our moderator, Rick Hasen.

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Thank you

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very much for being with.

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Well, good evening, everyone.

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This is the third in our three part

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series on

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issues and risks facing the

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2024 elections.

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And really,

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in terms of what we're talking about

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tonight, the period from

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Election Day until

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January 6th or maybe even January

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20th, you could not get

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a stronger group of people together.

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The range of experience and the

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knowledge here is unparalleled.

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I'm really grateful to all of them

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in their very busy schedules for

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coming out today to

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speak with us.

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I remember back in January

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of 2009, I

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was writing for my

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website, the Election Law Blog,

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and I was writing about the occasion

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of Barack Obama's inauguration.

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And I was writing how remarkable

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it was. It was here you had

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George W Bush, a conservative

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Republican,

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who was transferring power to

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Barack Obama, liberal Democrat.

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The Obamas went over to the White

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House, had coffee with the Bushes.

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They rode together in a limousine

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over to the inauguration.

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The inauguration happened, and

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Obama saw Bush go off on Marine

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One to go off on his post

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presidential life.

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And no one,

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you know, wondered what George

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W Bush give up power.

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But what I wrote at the time

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was in this country,

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we take peaceful transition

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of power for granted.

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And what I can say about today is

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that this is no longer true.

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That, in fact, at least judged

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by my inbox,

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people are panicked.

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And I gave two other talks today.

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And really, the number one question

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is, how is the election going to go?

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Are we going to be able to

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make it through, given what the

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events were in 2020,

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given the polarization in this

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country?

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And so I want to start

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by turning to Ben.

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And Ben, I want to ask you in

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terms first in terms of

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how we are actually

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prepared.

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So are we prepared to

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00:09:50.100 --> 00:09:52.079
have an election that

291
00:09:52.080 --> 00:09:54.749
is going to be administered fairly

292
00:09:54.750 --> 00:09:56.879
in the face of kind of unprecedented

293
00:09:56.880 --> 00:09:58.529
public scrutiny and in some cases

294
00:09:58.530 --> 00:10:00.780
harassment of elected officials?

295
00:10:02.130 --> 00:10:04.019
And then even

296
00:10:04.020 --> 00:10:06.539
if we have a free and fair election.

297
00:10:09.080 --> 00:10:10.159
Are people going to accept the

298
00:10:10.160 --> 00:10:12.079
results, especially if there

299
00:10:12.080 --> 00:10:13.009
may be delays?

300
00:10:13.010 --> 00:10:15.079
If we wake up Wednesday morning

301
00:10:15.080 --> 00:10:16.459
and we don't know because there are

302
00:10:16.460 --> 00:10:18.079
still ballots to be counted, who the

303
00:10:18.080 --> 00:10:20.179
president is. So are we prepared

304
00:10:20.180 --> 00:10:22.039
both in terms of administering the

305
00:10:22.040 --> 00:10:24.019
election and in terms of the

306
00:10:24.020 --> 00:10:25.849
public understanding and accepting

307
00:10:25.850 --> 00:10:26.959
the results of that election?

308
00:10:28.580 --> 00:10:30.169
Good evening, everyone.

309
00:10:30.170 --> 00:10:31.999
First, thanks very much for having

310
00:10:32.000 --> 00:10:34.099
me. And it's great to be on with

311
00:10:34.100 --> 00:10:37.009
with these folks on the panel.

312
00:10:37.010 --> 00:10:38.779
So, Rick, part of your questions,

313
00:10:38.780 --> 00:10:41.599
much easier than the other part.

314
00:10:41.600 --> 00:10:43.609
The answer to are we are

315
00:10:43.610 --> 00:10:45.079
are we prepared?

316
00:10:45.080 --> 00:10:46.999
Is that I believe that we

317
00:10:47.000 --> 00:10:48.379
are.

318
00:10:48.380 --> 00:10:50.689
I say that based on working

319
00:10:50.690 --> 00:10:52.909
with numerous election officials

320
00:10:52.910 --> 00:10:54.859
across the country.

321
00:10:54.860 --> 00:10:56.899
Group by co-chair called

322
00:10:56.900 --> 00:10:58.789
Pillars of Community had the

323
00:10:58.790 --> 00:11:00.529
leading election officials from the

324
00:11:00.530 --> 00:11:02.419
six battleground states

325
00:11:02.420 --> 00:11:04.099
together a couple of weeks ago in

326
00:11:04.100 --> 00:11:06.049
Ann Arbor, along

327
00:11:06.050 --> 00:11:08.809
with national media to brief them.

328
00:11:08.810 --> 00:11:11.089
Election officials, especially

329
00:11:11.090 --> 00:11:12.229
in the most contentious

330
00:11:12.230 --> 00:11:14.179
jurisdictions, have,

331
00:11:14.180 --> 00:11:16.189
I think, learned a lot

332
00:11:16.190 --> 00:11:18.709
of the lessons from 2020

333
00:11:18.710 --> 00:11:20.419
when they were caught quite a bit

334
00:11:20.420 --> 00:11:22.669
shorthanded and

335
00:11:22.670 --> 00:11:24.559
have prepared well for many

336
00:11:24.560 --> 00:11:26.179
more contingencies.

337
00:11:26.180 --> 00:11:28.249
Among the contingencies

338
00:11:28.250 --> 00:11:30.139
that they have had to plan

339
00:11:30.140 --> 00:11:32.059
for is people saying

340
00:11:32.060 --> 00:11:34.309
that the results of elections

341
00:11:34.310 --> 00:11:35.689
are not accurate.

342
00:11:35.690 --> 00:11:37.699
And they've handled that, first

343
00:11:37.700 --> 00:11:39.319
of all, by being tremendously

344
00:11:39.320 --> 00:11:41.449
transparent in ways

345
00:11:41.450 --> 00:11:43.309
they never have been before.

346
00:11:43.310 --> 00:11:45.259
So that and

347
00:11:45.260 --> 00:11:47.119
boy, is a courageous act.

348
00:11:47.120 --> 00:11:48.919
They will go out and into the

349
00:11:48.920 --> 00:11:52.099
community, hold town halls,

350
00:11:52.100 --> 00:11:54.169
invite election

351
00:11:54.170 --> 00:11:55.460
skeptics in.

352
00:11:56.520 --> 00:11:58.439
Invite them to kick the tires

353
00:11:58.440 --> 00:12:00.269
and answer all the questions.

354
00:12:00.270 --> 00:12:01.590
Show them the facilities.

355
00:12:02.880 --> 00:12:05.489
I do believe they are prepared

356
00:12:05.490 --> 00:12:07.649
and that the safeguards

357
00:12:07.650 --> 00:12:09.479
in the system that

358
00:12:09.480 --> 00:12:11.639
guarantee an accurate

359
00:12:11.640 --> 00:12:13.469
and reliable count

360
00:12:13.470 --> 00:12:15.659
are in place and

361
00:12:15.660 --> 00:12:17.909
are really pretty well documented

362
00:12:17.910 --> 00:12:20.459
in all 11 stages.

363
00:12:20.460 --> 00:12:22.679
So the second part of the question

364
00:12:22.680 --> 00:12:24.869
is, will people accept the result?

365
00:12:24.870 --> 00:12:26.699
It's a tad more difficult to put

366
00:12:26.700 --> 00:12:28.049
your finger on.

367
00:12:28.050 --> 00:12:29.939
Given the rhetoric and given

368
00:12:29.940 --> 00:12:32.669
the polls that show roughly a third

369
00:12:32.670 --> 00:12:34.589
of the American public, mostly

370
00:12:34.590 --> 00:12:35.590
Republicans,

371
00:12:36.840 --> 00:12:38.669
do not have faith in

372
00:12:38.670 --> 00:12:41.099
the reliability of our elections.

373
00:12:41.100 --> 00:12:43.229
And so that basic

374
00:12:43.230 --> 00:12:45.359
belief fan,

375
00:12:45.360 --> 00:12:47.279
to be sure by Donald

376
00:12:47.280 --> 00:12:49.109
Trump over the

377
00:12:49.110 --> 00:12:51.419
last eight years

378
00:12:51.420 --> 00:12:53.069
has had an effect on what the

379
00:12:53.070 --> 00:12:54.899
acceptance will be.

380
00:12:54.900 --> 00:12:56.849
Another truism is that

381
00:12:56.850 --> 00:12:58.769
if it is as close an election as

382
00:12:58.770 --> 00:13:01.799
the polls now indicate,

383
00:13:01.800 --> 00:13:03.269
it's going to be a long time before

384
00:13:03.270 --> 00:13:04.469
we get results.

385
00:13:04.470 --> 00:13:06.149
It's not going to happen on election

386
00:13:06.150 --> 00:13:07.109
night.

387
00:13:07.110 --> 00:13:08.909
Five of the seven battleground

388
00:13:08.910 --> 00:13:10.859
states have either

389
00:13:10.860 --> 00:13:12.749
passed new laws or

390
00:13:12.750 --> 00:13:14.759
left in place laws

391
00:13:14.760 --> 00:13:17.759
that led to a delay.

392
00:13:17.760 --> 00:13:19.889
And as a result,

393
00:13:19.890 --> 00:13:21.929
we're not going to know results

394
00:13:21.930 --> 00:13:23.939
in a close election anytime soon.

395
00:13:23.940 --> 00:13:25.799
Maybe not before the weekend

396
00:13:27.420 --> 00:13:29.069
at the earliest.

397
00:13:29.070 --> 00:13:31.229
And it is also true that that period

398
00:13:31.230 --> 00:13:33.329
between the close of polls

399
00:13:33.330 --> 00:13:35.009
and when the results are known is

400
00:13:35.010 --> 00:13:37.409
sort of a Petri dish for

401
00:13:37.410 --> 00:13:39.899
election disinformation.

402
00:13:39.900 --> 00:13:41.969
And so back to your original

403
00:13:41.970 --> 00:13:43.559
question about are the election

404
00:13:43.560 --> 00:13:45.059
officials prepared?

405
00:13:45.060 --> 00:13:46.529
And if they are better prepared to

406
00:13:46.530 --> 00:13:48.359
deal and to answer

407
00:13:48.360 --> 00:13:50.279
questions, to rebut

408
00:13:50.280 --> 00:13:52.739
arguments and to

409
00:13:52.740 --> 00:13:53.669
and to respond.

410
00:13:53.670 --> 00:13:55.559
But it can get a little yeasty

411
00:13:55.560 --> 00:13:57.599
in those in that time period.

412
00:13:57.600 --> 00:13:58.649
And I'm going to want to come back

413
00:13:58.650 --> 00:14:00.089
to you after I've gone through the

414
00:14:00.090 --> 00:14:01.319
first round of questions and ask

415
00:14:01.320 --> 00:14:02.789
specifically about

416
00:14:04.020 --> 00:14:05.279
if anything can be done to speed

417
00:14:05.280 --> 00:14:07.889
this up, especially

418
00:14:07.890 --> 00:14:09.719
with Pennsylvania and Wisconsin not

419
00:14:09.720 --> 00:14:11.189
changing their rules about how they

420
00:14:11.190 --> 00:14:12.389
process the ballots.

421
00:14:12.390 --> 00:14:14.039
But I'll come back to that.

422
00:14:14.040 --> 00:14:15.989
I want to bring in the other

423
00:14:15.990 --> 00:14:17.459
panelists first and first turn to

424
00:14:17.460 --> 00:14:18.429
for need. And first, let me say

425
00:14:18.430 --> 00:14:20.349
first is I, I

426
00:14:20.350 --> 00:14:21.629
you were at the top of my list of

427
00:14:21.630 --> 00:14:22.409
someone to invite here.

428
00:14:22.410 --> 00:14:23.909
But knowing that you're dean of U.S.

429
00:14:23.910 --> 00:14:25.169
law school, I'm shocked that you

430
00:14:25.170 --> 00:14:26.489
have the time to even breathe.

431
00:14:26.490 --> 00:14:28.349
So I'm especially appreciative that

432
00:14:28.350 --> 00:14:30.719
you were able to come here tonight.

433
00:14:30.720 --> 00:14:32.339
And the reason I really wanted you

434
00:14:32.340 --> 00:14:34.199
is I feel like, you

435
00:14:34.200 --> 00:14:35.159
know, they talk about the fog of

436
00:14:35.160 --> 00:14:36.269
war.

437
00:14:36.270 --> 00:14:37.949
We're in the midst of a very

438
00:14:37.950 --> 00:14:39.419
contentious, polarized period in

439
00:14:39.420 --> 00:14:41.399
politics. And what we really need is

440
00:14:41.400 --> 00:14:42.629
a historical perspective.

441
00:14:42.630 --> 00:14:44.459
And that's what you can tell us.

442
00:14:44.460 --> 00:14:46.409
So how does this period that we're

443
00:14:46.410 --> 00:14:48.809
in right now compare to

444
00:14:48.810 --> 00:14:50.699
American history, which, as

445
00:14:50.700 --> 00:14:52.229
I understand it, we haven't always

446
00:14:52.230 --> 00:14:53.969
had free and fair elections.

447
00:14:53.970 --> 00:14:55.799
We haven't always had peaceful

448
00:14:55.800 --> 00:14:57.569
transitions. We've had other

449
00:14:57.570 --> 00:14:59.909
moments. So is can you

450
00:14:59.910 --> 00:15:01.229
leverage history a little bit to

451
00:15:01.230 --> 00:15:03.419
give us a sense of where we are

452
00:15:03.420 --> 00:15:04.860
and how worried we should be?

453
00:15:06.810 --> 00:15:08.399
So first of all, thank you for

454
00:15:08.400 --> 00:15:09.779
having me. I'm very happy to be

455
00:15:09.780 --> 00:15:11.039
here. This is the happy part of my

456
00:15:11.040 --> 00:15:12.929
day, spending time with

457
00:15:12.930 --> 00:15:14.819
you folks and also

458
00:15:14.820 --> 00:15:15.899
spending time with my very

459
00:15:15.900 --> 00:15:17.759
distinguished panelists.

460
00:15:17.760 --> 00:15:19.619
So, personally, I think

461
00:15:19.620 --> 00:15:21.509
we should always be worried, in

462
00:15:21.510 --> 00:15:22.979
part because we don't ever fix

463
00:15:22.980 --> 00:15:24.149
anything.

464
00:15:24.150 --> 00:15:25.469
And I know that sounds extreme.

465
00:15:25.470 --> 00:15:27.389
Like, you know, the Electoral

466
00:15:27.390 --> 00:15:29.099
Count Reform Act, for example, was

467
00:15:29.100 --> 00:15:30.089
designed to address some of the

468
00:15:30.090 --> 00:15:31.949
problems we have four years ago.

469
00:15:31.950 --> 00:15:33.119
Every once in a while we get a piece

470
00:15:33.120 --> 00:15:35.009
of legislation that will try to

471
00:15:35.010 --> 00:15:36.059
alter some things.

472
00:15:36.060 --> 00:15:37.469
But the reality is that

473
00:15:37.470 --> 00:15:39.509
structurally, fundamentally, things

474
00:15:39.510 --> 00:15:40.739
don't really change.

475
00:15:40.740 --> 00:15:42.509
And so for me, every four years is

476
00:15:42.510 --> 00:15:44.039
really just this waiting game to see

477
00:15:44.040 --> 00:15:45.389
what happens, how we blow up,

478
00:15:45.390 --> 00:15:46.499
especially as we've become more

479
00:15:46.500 --> 00:15:48.389
polarized really since the mid

480
00:15:48.390 --> 00:15:50.459
1990s, but arguably earlier

481
00:15:50.460 --> 00:15:52.619
than that. But the mid 1990s,

482
00:15:52.620 --> 00:15:54.119
you really start to really see it

483
00:15:54.120 --> 00:15:56.549
manifested in our politics.

484
00:15:56.550 --> 00:15:58.559
And so I think historically we're

485
00:15:58.560 --> 00:16:00.899
also very spoiled

486
00:16:00.900 --> 00:16:03.389
and so this feels crazy,

487
00:16:03.390 --> 00:16:04.979
right? You're very worried.

488
00:16:04.980 --> 00:16:05.819
It feels disruptive.

489
00:16:05.820 --> 00:16:07.109
It feels unusual.

490
00:16:07.110 --> 00:16:08.369
But I think for most of American

491
00:16:08.370 --> 00:16:09.989
history, we tended we have tended to

492
00:16:09.990 --> 00:16:11.189
be polarized.

493
00:16:11.190 --> 00:16:13.049
I'm the last fact five decades.

494
00:16:13.050 --> 00:16:14.309
It just felt like that was kind of a

495
00:16:14.310 --> 00:16:15.419
consensus around things.

496
00:16:15.420 --> 00:16:17.279
And here there wasn't.

497
00:16:17.280 --> 00:16:19.019
And so I think this feels

498
00:16:19.020 --> 00:16:20.519
unprecedented. But in some ways it's

499
00:16:20.520 --> 00:16:21.520
not.

500
00:16:22.350 --> 00:16:24.029
The interesting thing to me, as I

501
00:16:24.030 --> 00:16:25.769
sort of thought about this question

502
00:16:25.770 --> 00:16:26.969
of how can we learn from this.

503
00:16:26.970 --> 00:16:28.889
Historically, things always

504
00:16:28.890 --> 00:16:30.569
come down to a guy.

505
00:16:30.570 --> 00:16:31.889
So let me explain.

506
00:16:31.890 --> 00:16:32.789
Right.

507
00:16:32.790 --> 00:16:34.349
I was thinking about the Nebraska

508
00:16:34.350 --> 00:16:35.159
situation, right?

509
00:16:35.160 --> 00:16:36.449
Well, there was this whole conversation

510
00:16:36.450 --> 00:16:37.499
about switch in the way they

511
00:16:37.500 --> 00:16:38.819
allocate their electoral College

512
00:16:38.820 --> 00:16:40.649
votes to winner

513
00:16:40.650 --> 00:16:41.699
take all.

514
00:16:41.700 --> 00:16:43.679
And there was a guy who said no,

515
00:16:43.680 --> 00:16:45.719
a Republican state senator, who

516
00:16:45.720 --> 00:16:47.609
decided that that is not something

517
00:16:47.610 --> 00:16:48.539
that should be done before the

518
00:16:48.540 --> 00:16:49.379
election.

519
00:16:49.380 --> 00:16:50.909
Now, of course, if we end up in a

520
00:16:50.910 --> 00:16:52.859
situation where it's 269 to

521
00:16:52.860 --> 00:16:54.779
69 and, you know, they've changed

522
00:16:54.780 --> 00:16:56.579
the rules, then that made it more

523
00:16:56.580 --> 00:16:58.439
likely that Trump will

524
00:16:58.440 --> 00:16:59.939
win the entirety of the state's

525
00:16:59.940 --> 00:17:01.499
Electoral College votes, as opposed

526
00:17:01.500 --> 00:17:03.359
to now Nebraska has kind

527
00:17:03.360 --> 00:17:04.469
of a hybrid system where they

528
00:17:04.470 --> 00:17:05.848
allocate some electoral college

529
00:17:05.849 --> 00:17:07.919
votes, but statewide,

530
00:17:07.920 --> 00:17:09.029
and they do so by congressional

531
00:17:09.030 --> 00:17:10.348
district.

532
00:17:10.349 --> 00:17:11.909
And so he said no, Right.

533
00:17:11.910 --> 00:17:13.409
So it is entirely possible that

534
00:17:13.410 --> 00:17:15.449
depending on how things work out

535
00:17:15.450 --> 00:17:16.318
now, that would be a very

536
00:17:16.319 --> 00:17:18.299
consequential decision that changed

537
00:17:18.300 --> 00:17:19.889
the course of the election.

538
00:17:19.890 --> 00:17:21.299
And it brought to mind the election

539
00:17:21.300 --> 00:17:23.129
of 1876, where there was also a

540
00:17:23.130 --> 00:17:24.299
guy, right.

541
00:17:24.300 --> 00:17:26.368
So the speaker of the House, Samuel

542
00:17:26.369 --> 00:17:28.229
Randall, decided

543
00:17:28.230 --> 00:17:30.089
not to allow his party to delay

544
00:17:30.090 --> 00:17:31.109
the counting of the Electoral

545
00:17:31.110 --> 00:17:32.189
College votes because what they

546
00:17:32.190 --> 00:17:34.349
wanted to do was so confusion.

547
00:17:34.350 --> 00:17:35.729
They wanted to introduce competing

548
00:17:35.730 --> 00:17:37.889
slates in order to deny Rutherford

549
00:17:37.890 --> 00:17:40.409
behaves the majority.

550
00:17:40.410 --> 00:17:42.389
And so he chose country

551
00:17:42.390 --> 00:17:43.349
over party.

552
00:17:43.350 --> 00:17:44.699
Now, of course, this did not make

553
00:17:44.700 --> 00:17:46.679
him a popular figure in his party.

554
00:17:46.680 --> 00:17:48.239
But so often, because we don't

555
00:17:48.240 --> 00:17:50.159
really fix anything, our elections

556
00:17:50.160 --> 00:17:52.049
tend to come down to a guy,

557
00:17:52.050 --> 00:17:53.879
right? And so in my mind, that

558
00:17:53.880 --> 00:17:55.859
is a completely dysfunctional way

559
00:17:55.860 --> 00:17:57.149
to run a system of elections.

560
00:17:57.150 --> 00:17:58.949
And it happens far too often.

561
00:17:58.950 --> 00:18:00.869
But I can think of other times where

562
00:18:00.870 --> 00:18:02.699
it's come down to either a

563
00:18:02.700 --> 00:18:04.439
person or group of people.

564
00:18:04.440 --> 00:18:06.029
I think back to 2020 where you had a

565
00:18:06.030 --> 00:18:07.859
group of judges who decided

566
00:18:07.860 --> 00:18:09.869
that the 60 plus

567
00:18:09.870 --> 00:18:11.399
lawsuits filed challenging the

568
00:18:11.400 --> 00:18:12.449
election results were not

569
00:18:12.450 --> 00:18:13.499
meritorious.

570
00:18:13.500 --> 00:18:14.849
Right. That is a group of people who

571
00:18:14.850 --> 00:18:17.069
basically were responsible

572
00:18:17.070 --> 00:18:18.449
for making sure that the guardrails

573
00:18:18.450 --> 00:18:20.129
of democracy held.

574
00:18:20.130 --> 00:18:22.199
That is a bonkers way

575
00:18:22.200 --> 00:18:23.489
to run a political system.

576
00:18:23.490 --> 00:18:25.139
Yet here we are again trying to

577
00:18:25.140 --> 00:18:26.699
figure out who the guy will be this

578
00:18:26.700 --> 00:18:27.700
time.

579
00:18:29.680 --> 00:18:31.299
Well, that doesn't make me feel all

580
00:18:31.300 --> 00:18:33.669
that relaxed.

581
00:18:33.670 --> 00:18:35.799
Today I said I was a 7.5

582
00:18:35.800 --> 00:18:37.029
instead of a 9.9.

583
00:18:37.030 --> 00:18:38.829
In terms of my nervousness about the

584
00:18:38.830 --> 00:18:40.659
election, I think that's a relative

585
00:18:40.660 --> 00:18:42.669
improvement, but still not maybe

586
00:18:42.670 --> 00:18:43.670
enough.

587
00:18:44.170 --> 00:18:45.399
Larry, the reason I wanted to bring

588
00:18:45.400 --> 00:18:46.899
you in here is because you have a

589
00:18:46.900 --> 00:18:48.489
unique comparative perspective.

590
00:18:48.490 --> 00:18:50.529
You studied democracies and failures

591
00:18:50.530 --> 00:18:52.419
of democracies around the world.

592
00:18:52.420 --> 00:18:54.459
So I want to talk specifically about

593
00:18:54.460 --> 00:18:55.869
the period that Ben mentioned

594
00:18:55.870 --> 00:18:57.369
earlier, that period between

595
00:18:57.370 --> 00:18:59.049
Election Day and the time that the

596
00:18:59.050 --> 00:19:00.050
Electoral

597
00:19:01.330 --> 00:19:02.649
College votes are counted, which

598
00:19:02.650 --> 00:19:04.299
should be January 6th.

599
00:19:04.300 --> 00:19:06.129
And what are the particular risks

600
00:19:06.130 --> 00:19:07.130
that we face?

601
00:19:08.050 --> 00:19:10.029
How does

602
00:19:10.030 --> 00:19:11.829
the situation in United States

603
00:19:11.830 --> 00:19:13.899
compare to other

604
00:19:13.900 --> 00:19:15.879
democracies that have faced

605
00:19:15.880 --> 00:19:18.699
risks to their elections and

606
00:19:18.700 --> 00:19:20.949
the kind of the the role

607
00:19:20.950 --> 00:19:22.809
of both political forces

608
00:19:22.810 --> 00:19:24.219
and civil society in terms of

609
00:19:24.220 --> 00:19:26.289
keeping or not being able to keep

610
00:19:26.290 --> 00:19:27.400
the democracy together?

611
00:19:29.250 --> 00:19:32.039
Well, I'll briefly answer

612
00:19:32.040 --> 00:19:34.079
the second of your two questions by

613
00:19:34.080 --> 00:19:36.269
saying it's pretty near

614
00:19:36.270 --> 00:19:37.270
unique.

615
00:19:38.350 --> 00:19:41.019
Brazil had, as you know, in 2022

616
00:19:41.020 --> 00:19:43.209
when Bolsonaro was defeated.

617
00:19:43.210 --> 00:19:45.550
A Trump like figure and incumbent

618
00:19:47.020 --> 00:19:48.879
a somewhat similar election

619
00:19:48.880 --> 00:19:49.880
crisis

620
00:19:50.770 --> 00:19:52.599
with him questioning the vote.

621
00:19:54.000 --> 00:19:55.379
Knocking on the doors of the

622
00:19:55.380 --> 00:19:57.449
military, maneuvering

623
00:19:57.450 --> 00:19:59.369
to try and hold on to

624
00:19:59.370 --> 00:20:00.989
power. There were echoes of

625
00:20:00.990 --> 00:20:02.099
similarity there.

626
00:20:02.100 --> 00:20:04.229
There was even a

627
00:20:04.230 --> 00:20:06.299
January 6th like

628
00:20:06.300 --> 00:20:09.419
assault on the Brazilian Congress.

629
00:20:09.420 --> 00:20:11.279
But honestly, most of what we're

630
00:20:11.280 --> 00:20:13.169
experiencing now, you really just

631
00:20:13.170 --> 00:20:15.089
don't see in any of our

632
00:20:15.090 --> 00:20:18.059
pure advanced democracies.

633
00:20:18.060 --> 00:20:20.879
I spent a lot of time in Taiwan.

634
00:20:20.880 --> 00:20:22.829
I observe

635
00:20:22.830 --> 00:20:24.899
many of their quadrennial

636
00:20:24.900 --> 00:20:27.299
presidential elections.

637
00:20:27.300 --> 00:20:29.729
You know, it's a simple system.

638
00:20:29.730 --> 00:20:31.619
Everybody votes on the

639
00:20:31.620 --> 00:20:32.459
same day.

640
00:20:32.460 --> 00:20:33.809
There's a central election

641
00:20:33.810 --> 00:20:35.819
commission and the votes are counted

642
00:20:35.820 --> 00:20:37.439
at the polling station.

643
00:20:37.440 --> 00:20:39.239
They're sent to the Central Election

644
00:20:39.240 --> 00:20:40.199
Commission.

645
00:20:40.200 --> 00:20:42.239
The result is announced by

646
00:20:42.240 --> 00:20:44.399
8 or 9:00.

647
00:20:44.400 --> 00:20:46.319
The loser concedes the

648
00:20:46.320 --> 00:20:48.149
winner is gracious.

649
00:20:48.150 --> 00:20:50.549
If only we could be that.

650
00:20:50.550 --> 00:20:52.379
But let me

651
00:20:52.380 --> 00:20:54.569
just break it up into a few pin

652
00:20:54.570 --> 00:20:56.489
familiar pieces for you

653
00:20:56.490 --> 00:20:59.219
can probably for our audience.

654
00:20:59.220 --> 00:21:00.569
There will be the immediate

655
00:21:00.570 --> 00:21:02.549
aftermath

656
00:21:02.550 --> 00:21:04.829
of five weeks

657
00:21:04.830 --> 00:21:06.809
until the presidential

658
00:21:06.810 --> 00:21:08.879
election and still

659
00:21:08.880 --> 00:21:10.769
until states are required

660
00:21:10.770 --> 00:21:13.919
on December 11th to certify

661
00:21:13.920 --> 00:21:15.389
their results.

662
00:21:15.390 --> 00:21:18.329
And then, of course, six days later,

663
00:21:18.330 --> 00:21:20.669
the electors are supposed to

664
00:21:20.670 --> 00:21:22.439
meet in each state to cast their

665
00:21:22.440 --> 00:21:23.440
votes.

666
00:21:24.300 --> 00:21:25.889
There are two possibilities.

667
00:21:25.890 --> 00:21:26.879
Well, there's two and a half

668
00:21:26.880 --> 00:21:28.259
possibilities.

669
00:21:28.260 --> 00:21:29.430
Possibility.

670
00:21:30.840 --> 00:21:32.849
One is that Trump

671
00:21:32.850 --> 00:21:36.209
will win. And like in 2016,

672
00:21:36.210 --> 00:21:37.619
people will be in shock.

673
00:21:37.620 --> 00:21:39.989
But there won't be widespread

674
00:21:39.990 --> 00:21:42.329
allegations of of fraud

675
00:21:42.330 --> 00:21:45.269
or illegitimacy, and

676
00:21:45.270 --> 00:21:47.279
he will move on to

677
00:21:47.280 --> 00:21:49.379
become president again.

678
00:21:49.380 --> 00:21:52.019
Possibility one and a half,

679
00:21:52.020 --> 00:21:53.729
I don't think should be entirely

680
00:21:53.730 --> 00:21:55.589
dismissed, and

681
00:21:55.590 --> 00:21:57.449
that is that efforts

682
00:21:57.450 --> 00:21:59.429
at voter suppression in

683
00:21:59.430 --> 00:22:01.799
some states and to

684
00:22:01.800 --> 00:22:02.849
intimidate

685
00:22:04.350 --> 00:22:07.499
or harass minority voters

686
00:22:07.500 --> 00:22:09.959
from voting and Native Americans

687
00:22:09.960 --> 00:22:11.819
on some tribal reservations and

688
00:22:11.820 --> 00:22:12.820
so on

689
00:22:13.770 --> 00:22:16.689
in a very close election.

690
00:22:16.690 --> 00:22:18.729
That some people and if Trump wins,

691
00:22:18.730 --> 00:22:21.159
some people on the Democratic side

692
00:22:21.160 --> 00:22:23.019
could say this

693
00:22:23.020 --> 00:22:25.239
would not have happened without

694
00:22:25.240 --> 00:22:27.249
efforts to purge the rolls or.

695
00:22:28.780 --> 00:22:30.459
There is. I don't know what to make

696
00:22:30.460 --> 00:22:32.319
of it. Others may have

697
00:22:32.320 --> 00:22:34.179
more knowledge and insight than

698
00:22:34.180 --> 00:22:35.169
I do.

699
00:22:35.170 --> 00:22:36.789
But there is an effort on the

700
00:22:36.790 --> 00:22:38.709
Republican side to motivate to

701
00:22:38.710 --> 00:22:41.079
organize a lot of observers

702
00:22:41.080 --> 00:22:43.119
at the polling stations.

703
00:22:43.120 --> 00:22:44.709
There is a very considerable

704
00:22:44.710 --> 00:22:47.289
narrative about non-citizens

705
00:22:47.290 --> 00:22:49.029
voting and so on.

706
00:22:49.030 --> 00:22:50.949
So if that gains momentum

707
00:22:50.950 --> 00:22:52.599
and a lot of people claim they were

708
00:22:52.600 --> 00:22:54.579
prevented from voting by

709
00:22:54.580 --> 00:22:56.050
one means or another,

710
00:22:57.070 --> 00:22:59.489
that could gain some traction.

711
00:22:59.490 --> 00:23:00.490
And

712
00:23:02.320 --> 00:23:04.479
in any case,

713
00:23:04.480 --> 00:23:06.999
the big other possibility

714
00:23:07.000 --> 00:23:09.189
is that we have an election

715
00:23:09.190 --> 00:23:11.499
pretty much like 2020

716
00:23:11.500 --> 00:23:13.449
with results very similar

717
00:23:13.450 --> 00:23:16.539
to 2020, and

718
00:23:16.540 --> 00:23:19.179
that we have the

719
00:23:19.180 --> 00:23:21.069
red mirage on election

720
00:23:21.070 --> 00:23:22.959
night because we're waiting

721
00:23:22.960 --> 00:23:24.789
for the absentee ballots to

722
00:23:24.790 --> 00:23:25.839
come in.

723
00:23:25.840 --> 00:23:27.729
Trump is ahead at,

724
00:23:27.730 --> 00:23:28.730
you know,

725
00:23:29.680 --> 00:23:31.839
midnight Eastern time.

726
00:23:31.840 --> 00:23:33.639
He declares victory.

727
00:23:33.640 --> 00:23:35.709
A lot of votes remain to be counted.

728
00:23:35.710 --> 00:23:37.179
They come in. A lot of them are

729
00:23:37.180 --> 00:23:40.029
absentee ballots that lean blue.

730
00:23:40.030 --> 00:23:42.159
And, you know, the Democrats

731
00:23:42.160 --> 00:23:44.559
narrowly pull out Pennsylvania,

732
00:23:44.560 --> 00:23:46.539
Michigan, Wisconsin.

733
00:23:46.540 --> 00:23:48.909
And Harris is elected president.

734
00:23:48.910 --> 00:23:51.699
I mean, Trump has so repeatedly

735
00:23:51.700 --> 00:23:53.979
so certainly

736
00:23:53.980 --> 00:23:56.559
and so adamantly

737
00:23:56.560 --> 00:23:58.119
declared that

738
00:23:59.830 --> 00:24:02.589
he cannot lose

739
00:24:02.590 --> 00:24:04.899
if there's a free and fair election

740
00:24:04.900 --> 00:24:07.059
that I think we have now, sorry

741
00:24:07.060 --> 00:24:09.339
to say it so bluntly,

742
00:24:09.340 --> 00:24:11.169
a virtual certainty of

743
00:24:11.170 --> 00:24:13.089
an election crisis if

744
00:24:13.090 --> 00:24:14.409
he loses.

745
00:24:14.410 --> 00:24:16.269
And that is going to be,

746
00:24:16.270 --> 00:24:18.249
I think, a very,

747
00:24:18.250 --> 00:24:20.259
very perilous time, which

748
00:24:20.260 --> 00:24:21.910
is, as Ben was

749
00:24:23.590 --> 00:24:25.779
indicating, is just

750
00:24:25.780 --> 00:24:28.539
going to be drenched

751
00:24:28.540 --> 00:24:31.269
in disinformation,

752
00:24:31.270 --> 00:24:34.119
polarization, suspicion,

753
00:24:34.120 --> 00:24:36.819
conspiracy theorizing,

754
00:24:36.820 --> 00:24:39.489
and unfortunately, a milieu

755
00:24:39.490 --> 00:24:41.619
that could be conducive

756
00:24:41.620 --> 00:24:43.329
to the kinds of problems Rachel

757
00:24:43.330 --> 00:24:44.330
worries about.

758
00:24:45.310 --> 00:24:47.649
Okay. My 7.5 is going

759
00:24:47.650 --> 00:24:49.869
up as we have this discussion.

760
00:24:49.870 --> 00:24:51.189
So if we've typecast people, you

761
00:24:51.190 --> 00:24:52.749
know, we've got we've got the the

762
00:24:52.750 --> 00:24:54.309
lawyer, the historian, the

763
00:24:54.310 --> 00:24:56.109
comparative US and the expert on

764
00:24:56.110 --> 00:24:57.849
political violence.

765
00:24:57.850 --> 00:24:58.899
I don't know if we should even be

766
00:24:58.900 --> 00:25:00.339
talking about political violence

767
00:25:00.340 --> 00:25:01.479
because talking about political

768
00:25:01.480 --> 00:25:03.399
violence maybe makes that more

769
00:25:03.400 --> 00:25:04.539
likely.

770
00:25:04.540 --> 00:25:06.189
You see polls that suggest that

771
00:25:06.190 --> 00:25:07.329
political violence is a major

772
00:25:07.330 --> 00:25:08.330
problem.

773
00:25:09.730 --> 00:25:11.589
Many of you this is a spoiler,

774
00:25:11.590 --> 00:25:13.359
but it's late enough that I think I

775
00:25:13.360 --> 00:25:14.619
can say it.

776
00:25:14.620 --> 00:25:16.239
Ben was a consultant on the TV show

777
00:25:16.240 --> 00:25:18.169
Succession, and there was a

778
00:25:18.170 --> 00:25:19.989
a he

779
00:25:19.990 --> 00:25:21.399
was the one that I think came up

780
00:25:21.400 --> 00:25:22.959
with the scenario of lighting the

781
00:25:22.960 --> 00:25:24.789
ballots on fire in Milwaukee

782
00:25:24.790 --> 00:25:26.649
in the. And then not knowing

783
00:25:26.650 --> 00:25:28.509
what the rules would be to

784
00:25:28.510 --> 00:25:30.069
deal with such a situation.

785
00:25:30.070 --> 00:25:32.169
That's the kind of action

786
00:25:32.170 --> 00:25:34.059
that keeps me up at night

787
00:25:34.060 --> 00:25:36.079
along with cyber attack on a

788
00:25:36.080 --> 00:25:38.319
on like the city of Detroit that

789
00:25:38.320 --> 00:25:39.729
like there's lots of bad things that

790
00:25:39.730 --> 00:25:42.339
could happen that are extralegal.

791
00:25:42.340 --> 00:25:44.229
How worried should we be

792
00:25:44.230 --> 00:25:46.479
and more importantly, what

793
00:25:46.480 --> 00:25:48.669
should we be doing as a country

794
00:25:48.670 --> 00:25:50.559
so that these things don't

795
00:25:50.560 --> 00:25:51.560
come to pass?

796
00:25:53.080 --> 00:25:55.029
So I think I'm going to up your

797
00:25:55.030 --> 00:25:56.499
ante a little bit here in your in

798
00:25:56.500 --> 00:25:57.789
your numbers.

799
00:25:57.790 --> 00:25:59.799
The good news is that actually very

800
00:25:59.800 --> 00:26:01.329
few Americans support political

801
00:26:01.330 --> 00:26:02.559
violence. When you look at good

802
00:26:02.560 --> 00:26:03.969
polls, there's a lot of horrible

803
00:26:03.970 --> 00:26:05.739
polls out there that ask questions

804
00:26:05.740 --> 00:26:07.629
like, do you support political

805
00:26:07.630 --> 00:26:09.039
violence? And a lot of people think,

806
00:26:09.040 --> 00:26:10.509
well, you know, if it was the

807
00:26:10.510 --> 00:26:12.369
revolution of 1776

808
00:26:12.370 --> 00:26:13.989
and the answer yes, but good polls,

809
00:26:13.990 --> 00:26:15.909
it's usually about 3 or 4% from each

810
00:26:15.910 --> 00:26:17.979
party. And the vast majority

811
00:26:17.980 --> 00:26:19.839
of Americans are very against it.

812
00:26:19.840 --> 00:26:21.519
The bad news is that in a country

813
00:26:21.520 --> 00:26:23.649
our size, every one percentage point

814
00:26:23.650 --> 00:26:26.109
is 2.5 million people.

815
00:26:26.110 --> 00:26:27.729
And when you ask them questions that

816
00:26:27.730 --> 00:26:29.169
are very specific, you know, do you

817
00:26:29.170 --> 00:26:31.179
support assassinating an opponent

818
00:26:31.180 --> 00:26:32.469
or what have you? You get pretty

819
00:26:32.470 --> 00:26:34.299
high numbers of those 3

820
00:26:34.300 --> 00:26:35.179
or 4 percentages.

821
00:26:35.180 --> 00:26:37.479
So it's actually very few people.

822
00:26:37.480 --> 00:26:39.339
However, there's

823
00:26:39.340 --> 00:26:40.629
enough of them to cause some

824
00:26:40.630 --> 00:26:42.669
trouble. The other good news

825
00:26:42.670 --> 00:26:45.219
is that we have many, many fewer

826
00:26:45.220 --> 00:26:47.169
organized groups now than

827
00:26:47.170 --> 00:26:48.219
in 2020.

828
00:26:48.220 --> 00:26:50.079
In 2020, we had the Proud Boys and

829
00:26:50.080 --> 00:26:51.129
the Oath Keepers and the three

830
00:26:51.130 --> 00:26:53.409
percenters and these real militias.

831
00:26:53.410 --> 00:26:55.329
When you look at civil wars, you

832
00:26:55.330 --> 00:26:56.859
look at organized groups because

833
00:26:56.860 --> 00:26:58.869
it's really hard to have violence

834
00:26:58.870 --> 00:27:00.849
on a sustained basis, a kind

835
00:27:00.850 --> 00:27:02.679
of civil war basis if you don't

836
00:27:02.680 --> 00:27:03.969
have organized groups.

837
00:27:03.970 --> 00:27:05.799
Right now, organized groups are at

838
00:27:05.800 --> 00:27:07.119
the lowest point they've been in

839
00:27:07.120 --> 00:27:08.559
many, many years.

840
00:27:08.560 --> 00:27:09.969
So that's the good news.

841
00:27:09.970 --> 00:27:11.769
The bad news is, again, it doesn't

842
00:27:11.770 --> 00:27:13.419
take organized groups to have

843
00:27:13.420 --> 00:27:14.709
somebody take a pot shot at a

844
00:27:14.710 --> 00:27:16.569
presidential candidate,

845
00:27:16.570 --> 00:27:19.179
to have a lot of folks

846
00:27:19.180 --> 00:27:21.699
coming out to mob

847
00:27:21.700 --> 00:27:23.529
election official

848
00:27:23.530 --> 00:27:25.449
who they want to intimidate.

849
00:27:25.450 --> 00:27:27.609
When you have that red mirage

850
00:27:27.610 --> 00:27:29.179
and blue. A wave that we are

851
00:27:29.180 --> 00:27:30.739
expecting, I think, in a number of

852
00:27:30.740 --> 00:27:32.569
red states to have people

853
00:27:32.570 --> 00:27:34.339
who are armed to show up.

854
00:27:34.340 --> 00:27:35.989
You don't need organized groups for

855
00:27:35.990 --> 00:27:38.119
that. So I'm

856
00:27:38.120 --> 00:27:40.009
I'm low in belief that

857
00:27:40.010 --> 00:27:40.909
we're going to have the kind of

858
00:27:40.910 --> 00:27:42.469
civil wars and so on that people are

859
00:27:42.470 --> 00:27:43.669
worried about. But I think the

860
00:27:43.670 --> 00:27:45.799
likelihood of during a period

861
00:27:45.800 --> 00:27:47.629
of uncertainty of a week or so,

862
00:27:47.630 --> 00:27:49.759
which is extremely likely,

863
00:27:49.760 --> 00:27:51.589
that we'll have

864
00:27:51.590 --> 00:27:54.229
armed people pressuring

865
00:27:54.230 --> 00:27:56.299
those who make decisions very,

866
00:27:56.300 --> 00:27:57.859
very likely. And as Panetta was

867
00:27:57.860 --> 00:27:59.779
saying, I mean, I, I don't think

868
00:27:59.780 --> 00:28:01.399
we have had a sustained level of

869
00:28:01.400 --> 00:28:02.329
violence in this country.

870
00:28:02.330 --> 00:28:03.979
I don't think that's a useful way of

871
00:28:03.980 --> 00:28:04.849
looking at it.

872
00:28:04.850 --> 00:28:06.679
We've had punctuated violence in

873
00:28:06.680 --> 00:28:08.419
this country really back to the know

874
00:28:08.420 --> 00:28:11.029
nothings in the 1830s.

875
00:28:11.030 --> 00:28:12.739
And what happens in our country is

876
00:28:12.740 --> 00:28:13.969
every time there's a political

877
00:28:13.970 --> 00:28:15.439
realignment, we have violence.

878
00:28:15.440 --> 00:28:17.479
Every time the parties are trying

879
00:28:17.480 --> 00:28:19.399
to grab vote share from the other

880
00:28:19.400 --> 00:28:21.439
party, you end up with political

881
00:28:21.440 --> 00:28:22.699
violence because a winner take all

882
00:28:22.700 --> 00:28:24.559
system like we have is

883
00:28:24.560 --> 00:28:26.509
just God awful for political

884
00:28:26.510 --> 00:28:28.219
violence. What it means is that

885
00:28:28.220 --> 00:28:30.289
moving one vote in

886
00:28:30.290 --> 00:28:32.209
a tight election wins you

887
00:28:32.210 --> 00:28:33.109
the whole district.

888
00:28:33.110 --> 00:28:34.909
And in a country as polarized as

889
00:28:34.910 --> 00:28:36.739
ours and Congress, winning

890
00:28:36.740 --> 00:28:39.109
one district might win you power

891
00:28:39.110 --> 00:28:40.759
over all of the appointments that

892
00:28:40.760 --> 00:28:42.229
the future president will make or

893
00:28:42.230 --> 00:28:44.089
what have you. So the stakes

894
00:28:44.090 --> 00:28:45.979
are incredibly high to push a

895
00:28:45.980 --> 00:28:47.659
small number of voters.

896
00:28:47.660 --> 00:28:49.639
When you have a system like that,

897
00:28:49.640 --> 00:28:52.309
it just the incentives are so

898
00:28:52.310 --> 00:28:53.959
desirous of violence that it's

899
00:28:53.960 --> 00:28:55.639
actually hard to imagine it not

900
00:28:55.640 --> 00:28:57.049
getting used in such a powerful

901
00:28:57.050 --> 00:28:58.639
country. So these political

902
00:28:58.640 --> 00:29:00.889
realignments, when the country

903
00:29:00.890 --> 00:29:02.869
starts grabbing from from

904
00:29:02.870 --> 00:29:04.789
one party to another, which we're in

905
00:29:04.790 --> 00:29:06.529
right now with the Republican Party

906
00:29:06.530 --> 00:29:07.530
trying to take

907
00:29:08.450 --> 00:29:10.489
white working class

908
00:29:10.490 --> 00:29:12.409
voters, but also black and Hispanic

909
00:29:12.410 --> 00:29:14.479
men, young men and so on.

910
00:29:14.480 --> 00:29:16.129
As that happens, you're seeing this

911
00:29:16.130 --> 00:29:17.149
political violence come out.

912
00:29:17.150 --> 00:29:19.249
And I really don't think

913
00:29:19.250 --> 00:29:21.319
it's caused solely by one person.

914
00:29:21.320 --> 00:29:23.329
I think it has clearly been

915
00:29:23.330 --> 00:29:25.339
amped up quite a bit by

916
00:29:25.340 --> 00:29:26.659
the rhetoric. We always see that it

917
00:29:26.660 --> 00:29:28.729
comes up by political rhetoric,

918
00:29:28.730 --> 00:29:30.739
but it's also the structural

919
00:29:30.740 --> 00:29:32.809
change. And it won't really go down

920
00:29:32.810 --> 00:29:34.939
until either the parties realign

921
00:29:34.940 --> 00:29:36.109
or we start changing these

922
00:29:36.110 --> 00:29:37.459
underlying structures that are

923
00:29:37.460 --> 00:29:39.619
incentivizing the violence.

924
00:29:39.620 --> 00:29:40.909
I want to just follow up with you

925
00:29:40.910 --> 00:29:43.279
about the two assassination

926
00:29:43.280 --> 00:29:44.659
attempts against Donald Trump and

927
00:29:44.660 --> 00:29:46.339
how they seem to have just like

928
00:29:46.340 --> 00:29:48.049
everything else that's happened,

929
00:29:48.050 --> 00:29:49.879
it's like they roll off the

930
00:29:49.880 --> 00:29:51.889
news. I mean, is this because

931
00:29:51.890 --> 00:29:53.299
our information environment has

932
00:29:53.300 --> 00:29:54.919
changed so much? I mean, you think

933
00:29:54.920 --> 00:29:56.839
back to, you know, I

934
00:29:56.840 --> 00:29:57.859
can remember the, you know, the

935
00:29:57.860 --> 00:29:59.209
attempted assassination of Ronald

936
00:29:59.210 --> 00:30:01.729
Reagan, and that was

937
00:30:01.730 --> 00:30:03.349
a huge deal for a long time.

938
00:30:03.350 --> 00:30:04.909
And here it's like, that was last

939
00:30:04.910 --> 00:30:06.529
week. And like we just kind of move

940
00:30:06.530 --> 00:30:08.269
on from what, you know, this

941
00:30:08.270 --> 00:30:10.159
abhorrent attempt to

942
00:30:10.160 --> 00:30:11.599
solve our problems through

943
00:30:11.600 --> 00:30:12.600
assassination.

944
00:30:13.590 --> 00:30:15.449
So our news media is

945
00:30:15.450 --> 00:30:17.189
in a very weakened state right now.

946
00:30:17.190 --> 00:30:19.139
Local news has been decimated

947
00:30:19.140 --> 00:30:21.269
and local news really

948
00:30:21.270 --> 00:30:23.489
holds the center of our country.

949
00:30:23.490 --> 00:30:25.319
It gives people trust.

950
00:30:25.320 --> 00:30:26.849
It gives people an understanding of

951
00:30:26.850 --> 00:30:27.809
what's going on.

952
00:30:27.810 --> 00:30:29.669
When it's all national news,

953
00:30:29.670 --> 00:30:31.049
people can kind of believe whatever

954
00:30:31.050 --> 00:30:32.519
they want about the other side, and

955
00:30:32.520 --> 00:30:33.809
they do. So you get this very

956
00:30:33.810 --> 00:30:35.669
sensationalistic kind of

957
00:30:35.670 --> 00:30:36.899
yellow journalism.

958
00:30:36.900 --> 00:30:38.519
These two assassination attempts

959
00:30:38.520 --> 00:30:40.799
didn't fit into the story

960
00:30:40.800 --> 00:30:41.969
that Americans are telling

961
00:30:41.970 --> 00:30:43.139
themselves. Americans are telling

962
00:30:43.140 --> 00:30:44.759
ourselves that we're extraordinarily

963
00:30:44.760 --> 00:30:45.869
polarized.

964
00:30:45.870 --> 00:30:48.119
There's truth to that, of course.

965
00:30:48.120 --> 00:30:50.129
But it's truth on an emotional

966
00:30:50.130 --> 00:30:51.269
level. We're emotionally very

967
00:30:51.270 --> 00:30:52.889
polarized. Ideologically, actually,

968
00:30:52.890 --> 00:30:54.179
not so much.

969
00:30:54.180 --> 00:30:56.369
And that emotional truth

970
00:30:56.370 --> 00:30:58.289
requires us to say the

971
00:30:58.290 --> 00:30:59.759
assassin or the attempted

972
00:30:59.760 --> 00:31:01.529
assassination of Trump came from the

973
00:31:01.530 --> 00:31:02.339
left.

974
00:31:02.340 --> 00:31:03.839
Well, that actually was not true at

975
00:31:03.840 --> 00:31:05.189
all. The first one looks much more

976
00:31:05.190 --> 00:31:06.509
like a school shooter.

977
00:31:06.510 --> 00:31:07.409
And actually, presidential

978
00:31:07.410 --> 00:31:09.599
assassinations are always

979
00:31:09.600 --> 00:31:11.399
not not always like this, but

980
00:31:11.400 --> 00:31:14.119
they're much more commonly weirdos.

981
00:31:14.120 --> 00:31:16.289
They're much less commonly very

982
00:31:16.290 --> 00:31:18.149
strongly ideological people.

983
00:31:18.150 --> 00:31:20.039
So someone who's looking for fame

984
00:31:20.040 --> 00:31:21.989
and notoriety

985
00:31:21.990 --> 00:31:23.489
and is taking it out on the

986
00:31:23.490 --> 00:31:25.199
president, but it doesn't fit into

987
00:31:25.200 --> 00:31:27.209
the story of polarization, thank

988
00:31:27.210 --> 00:31:28.829
God, because if it had, we could

989
00:31:28.830 --> 00:31:30.539
have really had another wave of

990
00:31:30.540 --> 00:31:32.519
major violence instead, actually,

991
00:31:32.520 --> 00:31:33.719
both assassination attempts.

992
00:31:33.720 --> 00:31:36.059
What you saw was that Republican

993
00:31:36.060 --> 00:31:37.679
support for violence went down in

994
00:31:37.680 --> 00:31:39.539
both cases. Right afterward,

995
00:31:39.540 --> 00:31:41.489
Democrats didn't really go down or

996
00:31:41.490 --> 00:31:42.809
up, but it has been lower in

997
00:31:42.810 --> 00:31:43.979
general.

998
00:31:43.980 --> 00:31:46.049
And so in that way,

999
00:31:46.050 --> 00:31:47.759
I think it helped people imagine,

1000
00:31:47.760 --> 00:31:49.079
geez, this could really be bad.

1001
00:31:49.080 --> 00:31:50.759
And it and it brought things down.

1002
00:31:50.760 --> 00:31:52.199
But that also is not the media

1003
00:31:52.200 --> 00:31:54.029
story, that things are getting

1004
00:31:54.030 --> 00:31:55.339
better. I mean, right now, we're

1005
00:31:55.340 --> 00:31:57.209
we're actually at the lowest level

1006
00:31:57.210 --> 00:31:59.279
of actual violence since

1007
00:31:59.280 --> 00:32:01.379
2020, much higher level

1008
00:32:01.380 --> 00:32:02.669
of threats and the threats are

1009
00:32:02.670 --> 00:32:03.719
believable.

1010
00:32:03.720 --> 00:32:05.939
And so people are very scared.

1011
00:32:05.940 --> 00:32:08.789
But the actual violence is very low

1012
00:32:08.790 --> 00:32:11.009
for for politicians and so on.

1013
00:32:11.010 --> 00:32:12.329
But again, that's not the story.

1014
00:32:12.330 --> 00:32:13.919
It's a complicated story right now.

1015
00:32:13.920 --> 00:32:15.449
And we need to be willing to take in

1016
00:32:15.450 --> 00:32:16.450
the nuance, I think.

1017
00:32:17.550 --> 00:32:18.419
Thank you.

1018
00:32:18.420 --> 00:32:20.189
We are going to come to you for

1019
00:32:20.190 --> 00:32:21.689
questions a little bit later on in

1020
00:32:21.690 --> 00:32:23.519
the program. I want to delve

1021
00:32:23.520 --> 00:32:25.589
now a little bit more into

1022
00:32:25.590 --> 00:32:28.349
what's happened from

1023
00:32:28.350 --> 00:32:30.749
the time of 2020 till now.

1024
00:32:30.750 --> 00:32:32.909
That maybe makes

1025
00:32:32.910 --> 00:32:35.009
an attempt to overturn

1026
00:32:35.010 --> 00:32:36.599
the results of a fair election

1027
00:32:36.600 --> 00:32:37.589
harder to do.

1028
00:32:37.590 --> 00:32:39.419
And so I want to turn specifically

1029
00:32:39.420 --> 00:32:40.770
to legislation that

1030
00:32:41.880 --> 00:32:43.019
a few of you mentioned, which is the

1031
00:32:43.020 --> 00:32:44.429
Electoral Count Reform Act.

1032
00:32:44.430 --> 00:32:45.839
So let me start with Ben, and then

1033
00:32:45.840 --> 00:32:47.009
I'll go to all of you.

1034
00:32:47.010 --> 00:32:48.149
Ben, could you just explain, like,

1035
00:32:48.150 --> 00:32:50.009
what this thing is

1036
00:32:50.010 --> 00:32:51.509
and then what I want to ask all of

1037
00:32:51.510 --> 00:32:53.549
you is, does this matter?

1038
00:32:53.550 --> 00:32:55.379
Does law really make a difference in

1039
00:32:55.380 --> 00:32:57.269
terms of lessening the risk of

1040
00:32:57.270 --> 00:32:59.159
at least the same thing

1041
00:32:59.160 --> 00:33:01.619
that we saw in 2020 post-election

1042
00:33:01.620 --> 00:33:02.620
happening again?

1043
00:33:03.970 --> 00:33:05.829
The Electoral Count Reform

1044
00:33:05.830 --> 00:33:07.749
Act was originally passed in

1045
00:33:07.750 --> 00:33:09.729
the 1880s and had

1046
00:33:09.730 --> 00:33:11.769
some very quaint language to

1047
00:33:11.770 --> 00:33:13.689
it that really got put

1048
00:33:13.690 --> 00:33:15.849
to a stress test in

1049
00:33:15.850 --> 00:33:18.039
the events of 2020.

1050
00:33:18.040 --> 00:33:20.049
And so as opposed to most

1051
00:33:20.050 --> 00:33:22.689
legislative attempts in Washington,

1052
00:33:22.690 --> 00:33:24.639
there was bipartisan agreement on

1053
00:33:24.640 --> 00:33:27.219
it, largely because

1054
00:33:27.220 --> 00:33:29.169
it is an act for the future

1055
00:33:29.170 --> 00:33:31.029
and neither party

1056
00:33:31.030 --> 00:33:33.759
could game out how to get advantage

1057
00:33:33.760 --> 00:33:35.019
under the act.

1058
00:33:35.020 --> 00:33:37.239
In other words, you

1059
00:33:37.240 --> 00:33:39.009
react to a recount situation

1060
00:33:39.010 --> 00:33:40.239
differently if you're ahead or

1061
00:33:40.240 --> 00:33:41.079
behind.

1062
00:33:41.080 --> 00:33:43.449
You can't know that in advance.

1063
00:33:43.450 --> 00:33:45.279
It depends who's sitting in

1064
00:33:45.280 --> 00:33:47.199
the chair as head of the

1065
00:33:47.200 --> 00:33:48.579
Senate, the vice president of the

1066
00:33:48.580 --> 00:33:49.659
United States.

1067
00:33:49.660 --> 00:33:52.029
Is that a Democrat or Republican?

1068
00:33:52.030 --> 00:33:53.979
So both parties saw the messiness

1069
00:33:53.980 --> 00:33:55.899
of of 2020

1070
00:33:55.900 --> 00:33:57.849
and realized this antiquated

1071
00:33:57.850 --> 00:33:59.679
law from the 1800s

1072
00:33:59.680 --> 00:34:01.179
needed to be updated.

1073
00:34:01.180 --> 00:34:02.799
So it did a few things.

1074
00:34:02.800 --> 00:34:04.779
It made it clear that

1075
00:34:04.780 --> 00:34:06.699
the vice president plays

1076
00:34:06.700 --> 00:34:08.678
only a

1077
00:34:08.679 --> 00:34:10.238
ministerial role, not a

1078
00:34:10.239 --> 00:34:12.039
discretionary role.

1079
00:34:12.040 --> 00:34:13.839
He or she just has to open the

1080
00:34:13.840 --> 00:34:16.059
votes, the Electoral College

1081
00:34:16.060 --> 00:34:17.738
votes, and announce them.

1082
00:34:19.030 --> 00:34:21.158
It put in some

1083
00:34:21.159 --> 00:34:23.138
provisions that make

1084
00:34:23.139 --> 00:34:25.899
it clear that local jurisdictions

1085
00:34:25.900 --> 00:34:27.908
have deadlines

1086
00:34:27.909 --> 00:34:30.099
for signing the certificate

1087
00:34:30.100 --> 00:34:31.959
of ascertainment.

1088
00:34:31.960 --> 00:34:33.729
There are some provisions in the law

1089
00:34:33.730 --> 00:34:35.678
that allow

1090
00:34:35.679 --> 00:34:37.899
for what's called mandamus

1091
00:34:37.900 --> 00:34:39.999
actions and other, in other words,

1092
00:34:40.000 --> 00:34:42.829
forcing the signing officials to

1093
00:34:42.830 --> 00:34:44.979
to get their results

1094
00:34:44.980 --> 00:34:47.259
in to Washington.

1095
00:34:47.260 --> 00:34:49.629
There are some

1096
00:34:49.630 --> 00:34:52.119
provisions that arguably

1097
00:34:52.120 --> 00:34:54.279
deal with catastrophic

1098
00:34:54.280 --> 00:34:56.979
events that you mentioned before,

1099
00:34:56.980 --> 00:34:59.049
although I think that that

1100
00:34:59.050 --> 00:35:01.239
you could never quite anticipate

1101
00:35:01.240 --> 00:35:03.459
what what that looks like.

1102
00:35:03.460 --> 00:35:05.619
So, in essence, it was an attempt

1103
00:35:05.620 --> 00:35:07.599
to clean up what looked

1104
00:35:07.600 --> 00:35:09.369
to be a dysfunctional law.

1105
00:35:10.410 --> 00:35:12.689
But nonetheless,

1106
00:35:12.690 --> 00:35:15.569
it tries to anticipate the future.

1107
00:35:15.570 --> 00:35:17.369
And that's a really tough thing to

1108
00:35:17.370 --> 00:35:19.259
do for all the

1109
00:35:19.260 --> 00:35:21.149
situations that that

1110
00:35:21.150 --> 00:35:22.150
can arise.

1111
00:35:23.100 --> 00:35:24.089
So just turning to the other

1112
00:35:24.090 --> 00:35:25.090
panelists,

1113
00:35:25.920 --> 00:35:27.959
we heard Mike Johnson,

1114
00:35:27.960 --> 00:35:29.189
the speaker of the House, who may

1115
00:35:29.190 --> 00:35:30.599
again be speaker of the House, we

1116
00:35:30.600 --> 00:35:32.499
don't know yet. On January

1117
00:35:32.500 --> 00:35:34.409
3rd, 2025,

1118
00:35:34.410 --> 00:35:36.329
when the new Congress

1119
00:35:36.330 --> 00:35:37.469
will convene.

1120
00:35:37.470 --> 00:35:38.789
When he was asked if he would accept

1121
00:35:38.790 --> 00:35:40.709
the results of the

1122
00:35:40.710 --> 00:35:42.179
whatever the states come up with, he

1123
00:35:42.180 --> 00:35:43.499
said if the election is free and

1124
00:35:43.500 --> 00:35:45.029
fair, which I took as a kind of

1125
00:35:45.030 --> 00:35:47.009
hedging and like

1126
00:35:47.010 --> 00:35:48.839
some people have said, I know Clay

1127
00:35:48.840 --> 00:35:50.819
Mitchell, who's one of Trump's

1128
00:35:50.820 --> 00:35:52.679
lawyer allies, has said, well, the

1129
00:35:52.680 --> 00:35:54.509
12th Amendment, you know, might make

1130
00:35:54.510 --> 00:35:56.099
the ACA unconstitutional.

1131
00:35:56.100 --> 00:35:57.659
I don't think that's a strong legal

1132
00:35:57.660 --> 00:35:58.660
argument.

1133
00:35:59.490 --> 00:36:00.490
But.

1134
00:36:01.130 --> 00:36:02.869
How much does lock constrain?

1135
00:36:02.870 --> 00:36:04.099
Let me let me turn to you for

1136
00:36:04.100 --> 00:36:05.100
Franita.

1137
00:36:05.990 --> 00:36:07.339
Should we take solace?

1138
00:36:07.340 --> 00:36:09.199
Should our number go down

1139
00:36:09.200 --> 00:36:11.149
our Richter scale?

1140
00:36:11.150 --> 00:36:12.679
I think it Larry called it earlier

1141
00:36:12.680 --> 00:36:14.389
before. Maybe that's a bad thing to

1142
00:36:14.390 --> 00:36:16.189
use in Los Angeles as a metaphor.

1143
00:36:17.570 --> 00:36:19.129
Should our should our nervousness go

1144
00:36:19.130 --> 00:36:20.959
down because of

1145
00:36:20.960 --> 00:36:23.119
the passage of the ACA and

1146
00:36:23.120 --> 00:36:24.290
how constraining as local.

1147
00:36:25.340 --> 00:36:27.109
Law constrains as much as we believe

1148
00:36:27.110 --> 00:36:28.159
in it? Right.

1149
00:36:28.160 --> 00:36:29.160
Like

1150
00:36:30.050 --> 00:36:31.669
there's this movie. I won't name it

1151
00:36:31.670 --> 00:36:33.769
because it makes me look bad,

1152
00:36:33.770 --> 00:36:35.059
but there's a character in a movie

1153
00:36:35.060 --> 00:36:36.529
that says, you know, he supports

1154
00:36:36.530 --> 00:36:38.509
Napoleon and his son is like,

1155
00:36:38.510 --> 00:36:40.189
my God, Napoleon was overthrown,

1156
00:36:40.190 --> 00:36:41.449
what are you doing? And the guy

1157
00:36:41.450 --> 00:36:43.619
says, Treason is a matter of dates.

1158
00:36:43.620 --> 00:36:44.899
Right. I kind of think of law is

1159
00:36:44.900 --> 00:36:46.729
contextual like that, right?

1160
00:36:46.730 --> 00:36:48.559
Like law matters when we believe in

1161
00:36:48.560 --> 00:36:50.479
it. It has less force when

1162
00:36:50.480 --> 00:36:51.499
we don't.

1163
00:36:51.500 --> 00:36:52.489
I think we're really living in a

1164
00:36:52.490 --> 00:36:54.319
time where that's true.

1165
00:36:54.320 --> 00:36:55.489
So this doesn't mean that we

1166
00:36:55.490 --> 00:36:57.289
shouldn't do things legally to try

1167
00:36:57.290 --> 00:36:58.369
to make

1168
00:36:59.570 --> 00:37:01.279
election outcomes more certain.

1169
00:37:01.280 --> 00:37:02.989
So the Electoral Count Reform Act is

1170
00:37:02.990 --> 00:37:04.579
definitely a step in the right

1171
00:37:04.580 --> 00:37:05.689
direction.

1172
00:37:05.690 --> 00:37:07.789
But part of our problem

1173
00:37:07.790 --> 00:37:08.869
is not necessarily legal.

1174
00:37:08.870 --> 00:37:10.789
We have a people problem, right?

1175
00:37:10.790 --> 00:37:12.769
We have people who, no matter

1176
00:37:12.770 --> 00:37:14.599
how many laws we pass, no money, no

1177
00:37:14.600 --> 00:37:15.859
matter how many safeguards we put

1178
00:37:15.860 --> 00:37:17.689
into place, they're

1179
00:37:17.690 --> 00:37:18.829
going to try to figure out ways to

1180
00:37:18.830 --> 00:37:20.869
subvert the election outcome.

1181
00:37:20.870 --> 00:37:22.129
And so some ways, you know, if we

1182
00:37:22.130 --> 00:37:23.509
just stick to law, it reflects a

1183
00:37:23.510 --> 00:37:25.909
failure of imagination on our part

1184
00:37:25.910 --> 00:37:27.769
because, you know, is it will,

1185
00:37:27.770 --> 00:37:29.089
for example, will there be another

1186
00:37:29.090 --> 00:37:31.819
January 6th maybe?

1187
00:37:31.820 --> 00:37:32.639
Well, maybe not.

1188
00:37:32.640 --> 00:37:34.819
Right. But either way, I

1189
00:37:34.820 --> 00:37:37.309
suspect that there's planning

1190
00:37:37.310 --> 00:37:38.689
going on to make sure that there's

1191
00:37:38.690 --> 00:37:40.069
not another January 6th.

1192
00:37:40.070 --> 00:37:41.779
Why? Because we saw that happen.

1193
00:37:41.780 --> 00:37:43.699
It's easy to try to prevent

1194
00:37:43.700 --> 00:37:45.199
what you've already seen.

1195
00:37:45.200 --> 00:37:46.669
Right. But Toobin's point is kind of

1196
00:37:46.670 --> 00:37:48.799
hard to try to anticipate

1197
00:37:48.800 --> 00:37:50.629
certain dangers because there are

1198
00:37:50.630 --> 00:37:52.399
just certain things you can't know.

1199
00:37:52.400 --> 00:37:53.719
So I think that we have to think

1200
00:37:53.720 --> 00:37:55.549
about law and how we pair with

1201
00:37:55.550 --> 00:37:57.469
other things in order for there

1202
00:37:57.470 --> 00:37:58.999
to be effective change within that

1203
00:37:59.000 --> 00:38:00.709
within our system, because frankly,

1204
00:38:00.710 --> 00:38:02.149
our norms have changed.

1205
00:38:02.150 --> 00:38:03.169
Right. We never think about

1206
00:38:03.170 --> 00:38:05.179
ourselves anymore as a collective is

1207
00:38:05.180 --> 00:38:07.159
we're very individualistic, which

1208
00:38:07.160 --> 00:38:08.629
makes it easy for us to hate each

1209
00:38:08.630 --> 00:38:09.469
other, right?

1210
00:38:09.470 --> 00:38:10.789
But when we start thinking about

1211
00:38:10.790 --> 00:38:12.319
each other as a collective, as in

1212
00:38:12.320 --> 00:38:14.419
we're in this together, then

1213
00:38:14.420 --> 00:38:15.769
we can start having conversations

1214
00:38:15.770 --> 00:38:17.059
about shared values and shared

1215
00:38:17.060 --> 00:38:18.109
ideals again.

1216
00:38:18.110 --> 00:38:19.639
So no matter how many changes that

1217
00:38:19.640 --> 00:38:21.319
we make to the law, as long as we

1218
00:38:21.320 --> 00:38:23.059
think about each other as enemies,

1219
00:38:23.060 --> 00:38:24.649
none of it really matters in the end

1220
00:38:24.650 --> 00:38:26.689
because come Election

1221
00:38:26.690 --> 00:38:28.429
Day, we may still find ourselves in

1222
00:38:28.430 --> 00:38:29.870
a situation where we're at odds.

1223
00:38:31.010 --> 00:38:32.989
Larry So thinking about the Mike

1224
00:38:32.990 --> 00:38:34.789
Johnson example, I and one of the

1225
00:38:34.790 --> 00:38:36.619
things I was putting together,

1226
00:38:36.620 --> 00:38:37.639
the advisory board for the

1227
00:38:37.640 --> 00:38:40.099
Safeguarding Democracy Project,

1228
00:38:40.100 --> 00:38:42.379
which you're on,

1229
00:38:42.380 --> 00:38:44.449
I felt like it's very important to

1230
00:38:44.450 --> 00:38:46.549
have conservatives

1231
00:38:46.550 --> 00:38:47.599
and liberals, Democrats,

1232
00:38:47.600 --> 00:38:49.009
Republicans, independents sitting

1233
00:38:49.010 --> 00:38:50.569
together because it's not just going

1234
00:38:50.570 --> 00:38:52.399
to be one side of the aisle

1235
00:38:52.400 --> 00:38:53.659
that's going to

1236
00:38:55.100 --> 00:38:57.709
be able to keep our democracy going.

1237
00:38:57.710 --> 00:38:59.719
And so, you know, what are the kind

1238
00:38:59.720 --> 00:39:01.099
of cross pressures that someone like

1239
00:39:01.100 --> 00:39:02.809
a mike Johnson is facing?

1240
00:39:02.810 --> 00:39:04.369
How do we know how constraining of

1241
00:39:04.370 --> 00:39:05.329
will be?

1242
00:39:05.330 --> 00:39:06.689
Who are the the levers?

1243
00:39:06.690 --> 00:39:07.879
Who are the actors that really

1244
00:39:07.880 --> 00:39:10.129
matter when we think about

1245
00:39:10.130 --> 00:39:12.169
how democracies stay

1246
00:39:12.170 --> 00:39:13.170
together?

1247
00:39:13.920 --> 00:39:16.019
Well, we know what the cross

1248
00:39:16.020 --> 00:39:17.079
pressures will be.

1249
00:39:17.080 --> 00:39:18.479
There will be the law and there will

1250
00:39:18.480 --> 00:39:20.039
be Donald Trump.

1251
00:39:20.040 --> 00:39:22.109
And if Mike Johnson is still

1252
00:39:22.110 --> 00:39:24.629
the speaker, he'll have to decide

1253
00:39:24.630 --> 00:39:26.309
which side he's on.

1254
00:39:26.310 --> 00:39:27.310
If.

1255
00:39:28.320 --> 00:39:29.519
The Democrats have won the

1256
00:39:29.520 --> 00:39:31.619
presidential election.

1257
00:39:31.620 --> 00:39:33.599
Trump is claiming it was rigged

1258
00:39:35.040 --> 00:39:37.109
and he is demanding that

1259
00:39:37.110 --> 00:39:38.999
the Republicans

1260
00:39:39.000 --> 00:39:40.979
try again

1261
00:39:40.980 --> 00:39:43.559
to overturn the election

1262
00:39:43.560 --> 00:39:45.509
in the Congress.

1263
00:39:45.510 --> 00:39:47.399
No, I mean,

1264
00:39:47.400 --> 00:39:49.289
you have to play this out in

1265
00:39:49.290 --> 00:39:50.939
terms of everything that happens,

1266
00:39:50.940 --> 00:39:53.189
because correct

1267
00:39:53.190 --> 00:39:55.229
me if I'm wrong, but in

1268
00:39:55.230 --> 00:39:57.899
order to overturn

1269
00:39:57.900 --> 00:40:00.899
and reject a state's delegation,

1270
00:40:00.900 --> 00:40:03.029
an electoral College slate,

1271
00:40:03.030 --> 00:40:05.009
you need a majority of of

1272
00:40:05.010 --> 00:40:06.299
both the House and Senate.

1273
00:40:06.300 --> 00:40:07.199
Is that is that.

1274
00:40:07.200 --> 00:40:08.849
I'm checking with my attorney here.

1275
00:40:08.850 --> 00:40:09.959
And he says, yes.

1276
00:40:09.960 --> 00:40:11.789
20% in each house has to

1277
00:40:11.790 --> 00:40:11.969
in.

1278
00:40:11.970 --> 00:40:13.439
Order to challenge.

1279
00:40:13.440 --> 00:40:15.539
So the Electoral Count Reform Act

1280
00:40:15.540 --> 00:40:17.459
did a very good thing by

1281
00:40:17.460 --> 00:40:19.289
raising the threshold to even

1282
00:40:19.290 --> 00:40:21.149
file a challenge to

1283
00:40:21.150 --> 00:40:23.099
20%, I believe, of each

1284
00:40:23.100 --> 00:40:24.479
house. Yes.

1285
00:40:24.480 --> 00:40:27.419
But then to succeed in rejecting

1286
00:40:27.420 --> 00:40:29.729
an electoral a

1287
00:40:29.730 --> 00:40:32.009
set of electors from a state,

1288
00:40:32.010 --> 00:40:34.199
you need a majority of each house.

1289
00:40:34.200 --> 00:40:35.200
And so

1290
00:40:36.390 --> 00:40:38.999
we're pondering a situation

1291
00:40:39.000 --> 00:40:42.329
which is quite plausible

1292
00:40:42.330 --> 00:40:44.549
in which Kamala Harris has

1293
00:40:44.550 --> 00:40:46.139
in the judgment, I'd say, of

1294
00:40:46.140 --> 00:40:48.059
independent people

1295
00:40:48.060 --> 00:40:50.249
and electoral professionals,

1296
00:40:50.250 --> 00:40:52.109
won the presidency,

1297
00:40:52.110 --> 00:40:54.359
won a majority of the state

1298
00:40:54.360 --> 00:40:56.729
of the vote in states

1299
00:40:56.730 --> 00:40:59.489
with 270 electoral votes.

1300
00:40:59.490 --> 00:41:00.959
But the Republicans have won the

1301
00:41:00.960 --> 00:41:03.059
House, which is possible

1302
00:41:03.060 --> 00:41:05.069
that they will retain and

1303
00:41:05.070 --> 00:41:06.629
the Republicans have won the Senate,

1304
00:41:06.630 --> 00:41:08.549
which is, in my view, highly,

1305
00:41:08.550 --> 00:41:10.229
highly likely.

1306
00:41:10.230 --> 00:41:12.149
And then you have

1307
00:41:12.150 --> 00:41:14.009
to presume that there are

1308
00:41:14.010 --> 00:41:17.339
not enough Republicans

1309
00:41:17.340 --> 00:41:19.169
committed to the rule

1310
00:41:19.170 --> 00:41:20.699
of law and the defense of the

1311
00:41:20.700 --> 00:41:22.529
Constitution to

1312
00:41:22.530 --> 00:41:24.389
keep that from

1313
00:41:24.390 --> 00:41:26.309
happening, to keep them

1314
00:41:26.310 --> 00:41:28.259
from throwing out

1315
00:41:28.260 --> 00:41:29.819
electors.

1316
00:41:29.820 --> 00:41:32.129
And I still,

1317
00:41:32.130 --> 00:41:34.049
you know, have a bias for hope here,

1318
00:41:34.050 --> 00:41:35.129
let's put it that way.

1319
00:41:35.130 --> 00:41:36.719
I was very influenced by Albert

1320
00:41:36.720 --> 00:41:38.759
Hirschman and the title of that

1321
00:41:38.760 --> 00:41:40.499
book. But let me lay something else

1322
00:41:40.500 --> 00:41:41.879
on the table, which is the other

1323
00:41:41.880 --> 00:41:43.829
point I wanted to get

1324
00:41:43.830 --> 00:41:46.259
to and throw it back to you.

1325
00:41:46.260 --> 00:41:48.659
The three of you who are lawyers.

1326
00:41:48.660 --> 00:41:50.519
And this is the this is

1327
00:41:50.520 --> 00:41:52.499
something that is troubling me a lot

1328
00:41:52.500 --> 00:41:54.419
without having the legal expertise

1329
00:41:54.420 --> 00:41:56.429
you have, which is

1330
00:41:56.430 --> 00:41:58.469
that as

1331
00:41:58.470 --> 00:42:01.379
a result of their experience

1332
00:42:01.380 --> 00:42:03.599
in the the previous

1333
00:42:03.600 --> 00:42:05.669
two elections, you know,

1334
00:42:05.670 --> 00:42:07.679
what I glean from the way things

1335
00:42:07.680 --> 00:42:09.689
have been unfolding is

1336
00:42:09.690 --> 00:42:11.969
that the Trump loyalists

1337
00:42:11.970 --> 00:42:13.949
are turning a lot of their attention

1338
00:42:13.950 --> 00:42:15.899
now to local

1339
00:42:15.900 --> 00:42:17.759
and county

1340
00:42:17.760 --> 00:42:19.679
election officials

1341
00:42:19.680 --> 00:42:21.869
and to trying to

1342
00:42:21.870 --> 00:42:23.819
persuade them if things don't go

1343
00:42:23.820 --> 00:42:25.229
the right way and critical

1344
00:42:25.230 --> 00:42:27.179
battleground states not

1345
00:42:27.180 --> 00:42:29.459
to certify the election.

1346
00:42:29.460 --> 00:42:32.039
And so if they can

1347
00:42:32.040 --> 00:42:34.799
finagle the certification,

1348
00:42:34.800 --> 00:42:36.479
at least this is the worry that's

1349
00:42:36.480 --> 00:42:38.519
out there in the literature

1350
00:42:38.520 --> 00:42:40.469
and keep it

1351
00:42:40.470 --> 00:42:41.939
keep an election from being

1352
00:42:41.940 --> 00:42:44.009
certified at the state level,

1353
00:42:44.010 --> 00:42:45.569
maybe because there are outstanding

1354
00:42:45.570 --> 00:42:47.519
claims at the county level,

1355
00:42:47.520 --> 00:42:49.019
I don't know.

1356
00:42:49.020 --> 00:42:50.939
We see what's going on in Georgia

1357
00:42:50.940 --> 00:42:52.769
now with with the effort

1358
00:42:52.770 --> 00:42:54.599
there, which is I understand

1359
00:42:54.600 --> 00:42:57.869
a judge has just overturned

1360
00:42:57.870 --> 00:42:59.939
a Georgia

1361
00:42:59.940 --> 00:43:02.459
law that would have made it easier.

1362
00:43:02.460 --> 00:43:04.319
It was not a law, but it was it

1363
00:43:04.320 --> 00:43:06.419
was a related lawsuit about whether

1364
00:43:06.420 --> 00:43:07.539
someone had the right.

1365
00:43:07.540 --> 00:43:09.299
Well, I think you all should should

1366
00:43:09.300 --> 00:43:11.189
shed light on this, because it

1367
00:43:11.190 --> 00:43:13.049
seems to me as

1368
00:43:13.050 --> 00:43:14.909
a political scientist

1369
00:43:14.910 --> 00:43:16.739
that if there are debates over

1370
00:43:16.740 --> 00:43:18.749
certification at

1371
00:43:18.750 --> 00:43:21.449
the county and state level,

1372
00:43:21.450 --> 00:43:23.219
it will give the Congress more

1373
00:43:23.220 --> 00:43:25.919
traction to obstruct things.

1374
00:43:25.920 --> 00:43:27.659
And I just want to play one other

1375
00:43:27.660 --> 00:43:29.789
angle on the table, which is the

1376
00:43:29.790 --> 00:43:31.380
this scenario we keep

1377
00:43:32.790 --> 00:43:34.769
resurrecting as

1378
00:43:34.770 --> 00:43:36.629
an element of a

1379
00:43:36.630 --> 00:43:38.909
of a of a kind of nightmarish

1380
00:43:38.910 --> 00:43:40.769
drama in a certain

1381
00:43:40.770 --> 00:43:41.969
way.

1382
00:43:41.970 --> 00:43:44.039
And that is that

1383
00:43:44.040 --> 00:43:46.169
if you don't have enough

1384
00:43:46.170 --> 00:43:48.689
Electoral College

1385
00:43:48.690 --> 00:43:51.299
votes certified

1386
00:43:51.300 --> 00:43:53.189
and sent to

1387
00:43:53.190 --> 00:43:55.409
the Congress and nobody

1388
00:43:55.410 --> 00:43:57.329
wins 270 electoral

1389
00:43:57.330 --> 00:43:59.249
votes, then it goes to

1390
00:43:59.250 --> 00:44:01.019
the House of Representatives and we

1391
00:44:01.020 --> 00:44:02.609
can say with a high degree of

1392
00:44:02.610 --> 00:44:04.769
certainty what will happen

1393
00:44:04.770 --> 00:44:07.349
then, because whether the Democrats

1394
00:44:07.350 --> 00:44:09.719
win control of the House or not.

1395
00:44:09.720 --> 00:44:11.189
We know from reading the

1396
00:44:11.190 --> 00:44:13.319
Constitution in high school

1397
00:44:13.320 --> 00:44:15.209
that the Congress then votes the

1398
00:44:15.210 --> 00:44:17.489
House of Representatives votes

1399
00:44:17.490 --> 00:44:19.379
not by a

1400
00:44:19.380 --> 00:44:21.329
by each individual member, but by

1401
00:44:21.330 --> 00:44:22.559
state delegation, and the

1402
00:44:22.560 --> 00:44:24.239
Republicans will have a majority

1403
00:44:24.240 --> 00:44:25.240
there.

1404
00:44:26.570 --> 00:44:28.569
I. Want to come to Rachel

1405
00:44:28.570 --> 00:44:30.249
before we get to responding to this

1406
00:44:30.250 --> 00:44:32.619
question. I want to and Larry's

1407
00:44:32.620 --> 00:44:34.719
actually answer Larry's

1408
00:44:34.720 --> 00:44:35.559
question at the end.

1409
00:44:35.560 --> 00:44:36.939
It's actually a good illustration of

1410
00:44:36.940 --> 00:44:39.489
what I wanted to get to, which is,

1411
00:44:39.490 --> 00:44:41.799
is there a kind of a demobilizing

1412
00:44:41.800 --> 00:44:44.199
danger of spinning

1413
00:44:44.200 --> 00:44:46.449
out the worst case scenarios

1414
00:44:46.450 --> 00:44:47.450
and like.

1415
00:44:48.500 --> 00:44:50.329
Is even having a forum like this

1416
00:44:50.330 --> 00:44:52.279
counterproductive, like how should

1417
00:44:52.280 --> 00:44:53.579
we be thinking?

1418
00:44:53.580 --> 00:44:55.279
But we will get to the certification

1419
00:44:55.280 --> 00:44:56.419
questions for sure. And then I'm

1420
00:44:56.420 --> 00:44:57.289
going to come to the audience.

1421
00:44:57.290 --> 00:44:58.290
Question.

1422
00:44:59.180 --> 00:45:01.009
How should we be thinking about

1423
00:45:01.010 --> 00:45:02.839
how we talk about

1424
00:45:02.840 --> 00:45:05.059
the risks to our democracy?

1425
00:45:05.060 --> 00:45:06.469
So I don't worry that much that

1426
00:45:06.470 --> 00:45:08.479
we're giving away the game.

1427
00:45:08.480 --> 00:45:10.009
You know, the scenario in

1428
00:45:10.010 --> 00:45:11.029
succession.

1429
00:45:11.030 --> 00:45:12.439
We've scenario planned out.

1430
00:45:12.440 --> 00:45:14.329
You know, the the folks

1431
00:45:14.330 --> 00:45:16.189
who are intent on violence

1432
00:45:16.190 --> 00:45:18.349
are opportunistic

1433
00:45:18.350 --> 00:45:20.299
and likely to do what

1434
00:45:20.300 --> 00:45:21.439
they're going to do, whether we

1435
00:45:21.440 --> 00:45:23.119
intelligentsia tell them about it or

1436
00:45:23.120 --> 00:45:24.049
not.

1437
00:45:24.050 --> 00:45:25.279
So I'm not worried about that.

1438
00:45:25.280 --> 00:45:27.499
I worry about normalizing,

1439
00:45:27.500 --> 00:45:29.419
about making because people

1440
00:45:29.420 --> 00:45:31.459
think that what other people think

1441
00:45:31.460 --> 00:45:33.019
is normal and they tend to do with

1442
00:45:33.020 --> 00:45:35.329
their group they think is doing.

1443
00:45:35.330 --> 00:45:37.669
And so you can change

1444
00:45:37.670 --> 00:45:39.079
the media and you kind of move the

1445
00:45:39.080 --> 00:45:41.389
Overton Window by

1446
00:45:41.390 --> 00:45:42.619
making people think what other

1447
00:45:42.620 --> 00:45:44.479
people are doing is is

1448
00:45:44.480 --> 00:45:45.469
a normal thing.

1449
00:45:45.470 --> 00:45:46.789
So I think as long as you're talking

1450
00:45:46.790 --> 00:45:47.779
about scenarios.

1451
00:45:47.780 --> 00:45:50.179
But but de normalizing you're good

1452
00:45:50.180 --> 00:45:52.429
with violence, though, that the

1453
00:45:52.430 --> 00:45:54.139
violence is something that we train

1454
00:45:54.140 --> 00:45:55.969
people away from at a very,

1455
00:45:55.970 --> 00:45:57.289
very young age.

1456
00:45:57.290 --> 00:45:58.999
And by the time you're an adult,

1457
00:45:59.000 --> 00:46:00.709
very few people are actually very

1458
00:46:00.710 --> 00:46:02.059
capable of committing violence

1459
00:46:02.060 --> 00:46:03.439
against another person.

1460
00:46:03.440 --> 00:46:04.669
It's really people with impulse

1461
00:46:04.670 --> 00:46:06.919
control problems, aggression,

1462
00:46:06.920 --> 00:46:08.419
aggressive personalities and so on.

1463
00:46:08.420 --> 00:46:10.399
It's why there's so much continuity

1464
00:46:10.400 --> 00:46:11.989
between domestic violence and other

1465
00:46:11.990 --> 00:46:13.669
forms of violence, just aggressive

1466
00:46:13.670 --> 00:46:14.509
people.

1467
00:46:14.510 --> 00:46:16.399
But the one

1468
00:46:16.400 --> 00:46:18.169
difference and so we're not making

1469
00:46:18.170 --> 00:46:19.609
more aggressive people, I guess, by

1470
00:46:19.610 --> 00:46:20.509
talking about it, right?

1471
00:46:20.510 --> 00:46:21.949
There's a certain population out

1472
00:46:21.950 --> 00:46:23.839
there. However, there's

1473
00:46:23.840 --> 00:46:25.789
a kind of violence that is righteous

1474
00:46:25.790 --> 00:46:26.749
in any society.

1475
00:46:26.750 --> 00:46:28.609
And society has some violence that

1476
00:46:28.610 --> 00:46:30.499
we think of as okay,

1477
00:46:30.500 --> 00:46:31.579
in our society.

1478
00:46:31.580 --> 00:46:33.499
Most societies protecting children

1479
00:46:33.500 --> 00:46:34.849
is okay. You're allowed to do

1480
00:46:34.850 --> 00:46:36.589
violence to protect kids.

1481
00:46:36.590 --> 00:46:38.119
Most societies also have some

1482
00:46:38.120 --> 00:46:39.919
historical form of violence that was

1483
00:46:39.920 --> 00:46:41.449
considered okay.

1484
00:46:41.450 --> 00:46:42.589
In our case, it's the American

1485
00:46:42.590 --> 00:46:43.590
Revolution,

1486
00:46:44.840 --> 00:46:46.489
Mexican revolution in Mexico or

1487
00:46:46.490 --> 00:46:48.469
whatever. If you make people

1488
00:46:48.470 --> 00:46:50.359
think that they are doing violence

1489
00:46:50.360 --> 00:46:52.489
to protect or

1490
00:46:52.490 --> 00:46:54.409
to enact something that

1491
00:46:54.410 --> 00:46:55.819
is considered righteous in their

1492
00:46:55.820 --> 00:46:57.649
society, then you can get

1493
00:46:57.650 --> 00:46:59.149
normal people who have been trained

1494
00:46:59.150 --> 00:47:00.199
away from it.

1495
00:47:00.200 --> 00:47:01.909
You don't do that by talking in this

1496
00:47:01.910 --> 00:47:03.679
way about various scenarios, but you

1497
00:47:03.680 --> 00:47:05.659
do do that by the rhetoric

1498
00:47:05.660 --> 00:47:07.459
that certain political elites are

1499
00:47:07.460 --> 00:47:09.859
using now, Trump being one of them,

1500
00:47:09.860 --> 00:47:12.649
who's talking about nefarious

1501
00:47:12.650 --> 00:47:14.719
groups of people

1502
00:47:14.720 --> 00:47:16.009
who are here illegally to vote,

1503
00:47:16.010 --> 00:47:17.599
taking citizenship rights or

1504
00:47:17.600 --> 00:47:19.429
dehumanizing people,

1505
00:47:19.430 --> 00:47:21.049
or making people think that their

1506
00:47:21.050 --> 00:47:22.459
constitutional rights are being

1507
00:47:22.460 --> 00:47:23.899
taken away and kind of waving the

1508
00:47:23.900 --> 00:47:25.819
1776 flag.

1509
00:47:25.820 --> 00:47:27.739
Those are the ways in which talking

1510
00:47:27.740 --> 00:47:29.629
about violence normalizes it that we

1511
00:47:29.630 --> 00:47:31.279
should be really worried about.

1512
00:47:31.280 --> 00:47:33.049
And what worries me as a non-lawyer,

1513
00:47:33.050 --> 00:47:34.189
also as someone who studies

1514
00:47:34.190 --> 00:47:36.409
comparative politics, is just

1515
00:47:36.410 --> 00:47:38.299
how that rhetoric has

1516
00:47:38.300 --> 00:47:40.429
become extraordinarily normal,

1517
00:47:40.430 --> 00:47:42.259
also coded with a religious

1518
00:47:42.260 --> 00:47:43.879
veneer in many cases, which is

1519
00:47:43.880 --> 00:47:46.009
another way to add righteousness

1520
00:47:46.010 --> 00:47:47.749
to to violence.

1521
00:47:47.750 --> 00:47:49.789
And if that

1522
00:47:49.790 --> 00:47:51.859
kind of of language is repeated

1523
00:47:51.860 --> 00:47:53.959
by elites, people tend to

1524
00:47:53.960 --> 00:47:55.579
do what they think the leaders of

1525
00:47:55.580 --> 00:47:57.079
their groups approve of.

1526
00:47:57.080 --> 00:47:58.399
People really want to belong.

1527
00:47:58.400 --> 00:47:59.689
We never get past high school,

1528
00:47:59.690 --> 00:48:01.549
really. And so

1529
00:48:01.550 --> 00:48:03.549
that desire to belong and

1530
00:48:03.550 --> 00:48:05.569
the venality of leaders who will use

1531
00:48:05.570 --> 00:48:07.069
that kind of rhetoric is much more

1532
00:48:07.070 --> 00:48:08.929
worrisome to me than a conversation

1533
00:48:08.930 --> 00:48:09.930
like this.

1534
00:48:10.730 --> 00:48:12.289
Okay. Before I turn to questions, I

1535
00:48:12.290 --> 00:48:13.069
want to come back to the

1536
00:48:13.070 --> 00:48:14.149
certification questions.

1537
00:48:14.150 --> 00:48:16.279
And Ben was ready to jump

1538
00:48:16.280 --> 00:48:17.659
in and then I'll turn to for need of

1539
00:48:17.660 --> 00:48:18.679
I think to add.

1540
00:48:18.680 --> 00:48:20.569
I want to be able to lower Larry's

1541
00:48:20.570 --> 00:48:22.070
Richter scale number here.

1542
00:48:23.300 --> 00:48:25.309
Certifications in

1543
00:48:25.310 --> 00:48:26.599
every state. There's been a lot of

1544
00:48:26.600 --> 00:48:28.459
rhetoric about this lately,

1545
00:48:28.460 --> 00:48:31.279
but certifications in every state

1546
00:48:31.280 --> 00:48:33.409
are mandatory for the local election

1547
00:48:33.410 --> 00:48:35.299
officials to do.

1548
00:48:35.300 --> 00:48:37.189
There's there is not a state law

1549
00:48:37.190 --> 00:48:39.259
in the country that gives

1550
00:48:39.260 --> 00:48:41.149
a board

1551
00:48:41.150 --> 00:48:43.369
or certifying authority

1552
00:48:43.370 --> 00:48:45.259
the chance to to muck

1553
00:48:45.260 --> 00:48:47.119
things up and mess around

1554
00:48:47.120 --> 00:48:48.799
with the deadlines.

1555
00:48:48.800 --> 00:48:51.769
It's been tried in a few counties.

1556
00:48:51.770 --> 00:48:53.539
It has failed every time they've

1557
00:48:53.540 --> 00:48:54.349
tried it.

1558
00:48:54.350 --> 00:48:56.149
A few officials who tried to delay

1559
00:48:56.150 --> 00:48:58.129
certification are now under criminal

1560
00:48:58.130 --> 00:48:59.209
indictment.

1561
00:48:59.210 --> 00:49:00.859
That should be a true lesson to

1562
00:49:00.860 --> 00:49:03.169
them. The reason is pretty simple

1563
00:49:03.170 --> 00:49:06.019
The certification is necessary

1564
00:49:06.020 --> 00:49:08.749
to bring a recount or a contest

1565
00:49:08.750 --> 00:49:10.789
or litigation, which

1566
00:49:10.790 --> 00:49:12.739
is the proper forum

1567
00:49:12.740 --> 00:49:15.289
for discussing irregularities

1568
00:49:15.290 --> 00:49:17.359
that may have occurred in election,

1569
00:49:17.360 --> 00:49:19.579
not from a group of unelected

1570
00:49:19.580 --> 00:49:21.619
people to do that.

1571
00:49:21.620 --> 00:49:23.509
A Georgia judge just put the

1572
00:49:23.510 --> 00:49:25.399
Georgia election board

1573
00:49:25.400 --> 00:49:27.109
back in its box.

1574
00:49:27.110 --> 00:49:29.119
Now, the other thing is, if

1575
00:49:29.120 --> 00:49:31.069
you deny certification

1576
00:49:31.070 --> 00:49:33.049
on the presidential race

1577
00:49:33.050 --> 00:49:35.719
that denies certification

1578
00:49:35.720 --> 00:49:37.729
on every race on the ballot, you

1579
00:49:37.730 --> 00:49:38.959
can't just have it for the

1580
00:49:38.960 --> 00:49:40.519
presidential race.

1581
00:49:40.520 --> 00:49:42.739
And so if it is Republican

1582
00:49:42.740 --> 00:49:44.659
county boards who are denying

1583
00:49:44.660 --> 00:49:46.429
certification on the presidential

1584
00:49:46.430 --> 00:49:48.289
basis to help Donald Trump.

1585
00:49:48.290 --> 00:49:50.749
They are denying the certifications

1586
00:49:50.750 --> 00:49:52.699
to all Republican elected

1587
00:49:52.700 --> 00:49:54.589
officials, including members

1588
00:49:54.590 --> 00:49:57.379
of Congress, who presumably

1589
00:49:57.380 --> 00:49:59.209
are part of the worry about

1590
00:49:59.210 --> 00:50:01.279
a contingent election

1591
00:50:01.280 --> 00:50:02.209
in the House.

1592
00:50:02.210 --> 00:50:03.769
And one other factor of the

1593
00:50:03.770 --> 00:50:05.809
Electoral Count Reform Act

1594
00:50:05.810 --> 00:50:08.119
is that if a state fails

1595
00:50:08.120 --> 00:50:10.039
to provide a certificate

1596
00:50:10.040 --> 00:50:12.349
of ascertainment for its electors,

1597
00:50:12.350 --> 00:50:15.079
then that nominator

1598
00:50:15.080 --> 00:50:17.059
of the number of votes

1599
00:50:17.060 --> 00:50:18.919
you need in the Electoral College is

1600
00:50:18.920 --> 00:50:20.059
reduced.

1601
00:50:20.060 --> 00:50:22.040
So it's no longer to 70.

1602
00:50:23.540 --> 00:50:25.429
Can I just say one more

1603
00:50:25.430 --> 00:50:26.689
thing?

1604
00:50:26.690 --> 00:50:28.519
You mentioned a very important word

1605
00:50:28.520 --> 00:50:30.379
there, which is judge.

1606
00:50:30.380 --> 00:50:32.359
And there's a guy

1607
00:50:32.360 --> 00:50:34.219
named Ben Ginsberg who I meet in

1608
00:50:34.220 --> 00:50:36.079
the hallways at Hoover and follow on

1609
00:50:36.080 --> 00:50:37.909
the news, who I think made

1610
00:50:37.910 --> 00:50:39.859
the point not too long ago,

1611
00:50:39.860 --> 00:50:42.649
I don't remember in which venue

1612
00:50:42.650 --> 00:50:44.509
that one of the things that saved

1613
00:50:44.510 --> 00:50:46.579
us in

1614
00:50:46.580 --> 00:50:48.799
2020 is that

1615
00:50:48.800 --> 00:50:50.719
in something like 63

1616
00:50:50.720 --> 00:50:52.879
of 64 judicial

1617
00:50:52.880 --> 00:50:54.769
decisions

1618
00:50:54.770 --> 00:50:56.719
involving Trump's appeals, he

1619
00:50:56.720 --> 00:50:58.459
lost in the courts.

1620
00:50:58.460 --> 00:51:00.499
And so

1621
00:51:00.500 --> 00:51:02.569
if if that holds,

1622
00:51:02.570 --> 00:51:04.489
again, maybe we can lower

1623
00:51:04.490 --> 00:51:06.769
the Richter scale rating a bit.

1624
00:51:06.770 --> 00:51:09.139
Maybe So for Franita,

1625
00:51:09.140 --> 00:51:10.279
did you want to weigh in on any of

1626
00:51:10.280 --> 00:51:10.369
this?

1627
00:51:10.370 --> 00:51:11.419
Don't want to have the last word.

1628
00:51:11.420 --> 00:51:12.019
That was good.

1629
00:51:12.020 --> 00:51:14.029
Okay. I was

1630
00:51:14.030 --> 00:51:15.349
going to say, on judges, I've been

1631
00:51:15.350 --> 00:51:16.519
speaking to judges around the

1632
00:51:16.520 --> 00:51:18.259
country, you know, Democratic

1633
00:51:18.260 --> 00:51:19.789
elected or appointed and Republican

1634
00:51:19.790 --> 00:51:20.719
elected or appointed.

1635
00:51:20.720 --> 00:51:22.669
And they really do want

1636
00:51:22.670 --> 00:51:25.009
to do their part for democracy.

1637
00:51:25.010 --> 00:51:26.239
They you know,

1638
00:51:27.290 --> 00:51:29.209
one of the strongest

1639
00:51:30.500 --> 00:51:32.359
opinions that was written in that

1640
00:51:32.360 --> 00:51:34.579
period was by Stephanos

1641
00:51:34.580 --> 00:51:37.039
Bibas, who is a

1642
00:51:37.040 --> 00:51:39.349
long standing conservative, former

1643
00:51:39.350 --> 00:51:40.699
professor, Federalist Society

1644
00:51:40.700 --> 00:51:42.469
member. And he wrote an opinion in

1645
00:51:42.470 --> 00:51:44.419
Trump versus Pennsylvania.

1646
00:51:44.420 --> 00:51:45.420
And.

1647
00:51:46.690 --> 00:51:48.469
Where he talked about it.

1648
00:51:48.470 --> 00:51:49.539
He basically said free and fair

1649
00:51:49.540 --> 00:51:51.429
elections are the

1650
00:51:51.430 --> 00:51:53.049
lifeblood of American democracy.

1651
00:51:53.050 --> 00:51:54.909
And saying elections

1652
00:51:54.910 --> 00:51:56.609
unfair doesn't make it so.

1653
00:51:56.610 --> 00:51:57.429
You actually have to come with

1654
00:51:57.430 --> 00:51:58.659
proof. And there was no proof.

1655
00:51:58.660 --> 00:51:59.439
I'm paraphrasing.

1656
00:51:59.440 --> 00:52:00.489
You said it much more eloquently

1657
00:52:00.490 --> 00:52:01.269
than I did.

1658
00:52:01.270 --> 00:52:02.799
And I was on a panel with Bibas at

1659
00:52:02.800 --> 00:52:03.999
the Ninth Circuit Judicial

1660
00:52:04.000 --> 00:52:05.799
Conference, and he talked about the

1661
00:52:05.800 --> 00:52:08.199
threats of physical violence that

1662
00:52:08.200 --> 00:52:09.999
he and his family faced after

1663
00:52:10.000 --> 00:52:11.259
writing that.

1664
00:52:11.260 --> 00:52:13.359
So although the judges

1665
00:52:13.360 --> 00:52:15.219
want to do the right thing, as do

1666
00:52:15.220 --> 00:52:17.199
election administrators,

1667
00:52:17.200 --> 00:52:18.369
some of them are afraid.

1668
00:52:18.370 --> 00:52:20.289
I mean, at every judicial conference

1669
00:52:20.290 --> 00:52:22.479
I've spoken at since 2020

1670
00:52:22.480 --> 00:52:23.589
there, you know, I look at the

1671
00:52:23.590 --> 00:52:25.599
schedule of what else is being

1672
00:52:25.600 --> 00:52:26.559
discussed.

1673
00:52:26.560 --> 00:52:28.119
There is something there about

1674
00:52:28.120 --> 00:52:29.529
judicial security.

1675
00:52:29.530 --> 00:52:31.689
So that's an issue, too.

1676
00:52:31.690 --> 00:52:32.709
I did want to get to one more thing.

1677
00:52:32.710 --> 00:52:33.669
I'm sorry. Before we turn to the

1678
00:52:33.670 --> 00:52:34.779
audience, which I said I would come

1679
00:52:34.780 --> 00:52:36.669
back to, which is Pennsylvania and

1680
00:52:36.670 --> 00:52:38.559
the the blue shift, the red mirage

1681
00:52:38.560 --> 00:52:39.849
and all of that. And just kind of

1682
00:52:39.850 --> 00:52:41.799
explain all of that because we

1683
00:52:41.800 --> 00:52:43.899
kind of talked in a shorthand.

1684
00:52:43.900 --> 00:52:46.449
So the idea is that in Pennsylvania

1685
00:52:46.450 --> 00:52:48.399
and Wisconsin,

1686
00:52:48.400 --> 00:52:50.709
they've not changed their rules

1687
00:52:50.710 --> 00:52:52.629
for how absentee or

1688
00:52:52.630 --> 00:52:54.250
mail in ballots are handled

1689
00:52:55.690 --> 00:52:57.819
in that most other states,

1690
00:52:57.820 --> 00:52:58.779
when the ballots come in, they're

1691
00:52:58.780 --> 00:53:00.849
pre processed, they're pre canvass.

1692
00:53:00.850 --> 00:53:01.629
They're basically look at

1693
00:53:01.630 --> 00:53:03.309
everything, make sure the ballot is

1694
00:53:03.310 --> 00:53:04.929
ready to be counted or has to be set

1695
00:53:04.930 --> 00:53:06.129
aside because it's missing a

1696
00:53:06.130 --> 00:53:07.569
signature or something like that.

1697
00:53:07.570 --> 00:53:09.099
So then by by an election day comes,

1698
00:53:09.100 --> 00:53:10.329
you just can run the ballots through

1699
00:53:10.330 --> 00:53:11.330
the machine.

1700
00:53:12.040 --> 00:53:13.759
Pennsylvania doesn't do that.

1701
00:53:13.760 --> 00:53:15.249
And because they had this great

1702
00:53:15.250 --> 00:53:16.900
influx of ballots.

1703
00:53:18.180 --> 00:53:20.069
There is

1704
00:53:20.070 --> 00:53:22.169
a great

1705
00:53:22.170 --> 00:53:23.519
delay because they won't structural

1706
00:53:23.520 --> 00:53:24.299
7 a.m.

1707
00:53:24.300 --> 00:53:26.639
on Election Day, which is why

1708
00:53:26.640 --> 00:53:28.649
Tuesday night after

1709
00:53:28.650 --> 00:53:30.569
election in 2020, Trump was

1710
00:53:30.570 --> 00:53:32.429
ahead by 160,000 by the

1711
00:53:32.430 --> 00:53:33.719
time we get to Saturday.

1712
00:53:33.720 --> 00:53:35.549
Biden's wins the state by

1713
00:53:35.550 --> 00:53:36.960
about 80,000 votes.

1714
00:53:38.490 --> 00:53:39.509
Let's talk a little bit.

1715
00:53:39.510 --> 00:53:41.399
And the reason we saw the shift

1716
00:53:41.400 --> 00:53:43.499
is because Democrats are much more

1717
00:53:43.500 --> 00:53:44.999
interested in voting by mail during

1718
00:53:45.000 --> 00:53:46.499
the pandemic than Republicans, in

1719
00:53:46.500 --> 00:53:48.119
part because Trump was discouraging

1720
00:53:48.120 --> 00:53:49.259
voting by mail.

1721
00:53:49.260 --> 00:53:51.089
So I

1722
00:53:51.090 --> 00:53:52.169
bet I take it that you think we're

1723
00:53:52.170 --> 00:53:54.119
going to see this again, this shift.

1724
00:53:54.120 --> 00:53:55.799
I don't know if you know the number

1725
00:53:55.800 --> 00:53:57.359
of mail ballots.

1726
00:53:57.360 --> 00:53:58.829
Is there anything to do about it?

1727
00:53:58.830 --> 00:54:00.719
If Trump's under a scenario

1728
00:54:00.720 --> 00:54:02.069
two from lary Trump's declaring

1729
00:54:02.070 --> 00:54:03.929
victory no matter what and we

1730
00:54:03.930 --> 00:54:05.159
have this I don't know you calls it

1731
00:54:05.160 --> 00:54:07.889
soupy, dicey, yeasty

1732
00:54:07.890 --> 00:54:09.929
period, like, okay,

1733
00:54:09.930 --> 00:54:11.759
what what what what can

1734
00:54:11.760 --> 00:54:12.760
we do about this?

1735
00:54:14.070 --> 00:54:15.779
The best thing to do about it is to

1736
00:54:15.780 --> 00:54:17.669
recognize the reality

1737
00:54:17.670 --> 00:54:19.559
that you're not going to get

1738
00:54:19.560 --> 00:54:20.729
resolved. You're not going to know

1739
00:54:20.730 --> 00:54:22.319
who won on election night.

1740
00:54:22.320 --> 00:54:23.909
I mean, in every one of those

1741
00:54:23.910 --> 00:54:25.739
states, you'll have 70%

1742
00:54:25.740 --> 00:54:28.079
of the ballots in and counted

1743
00:54:28.080 --> 00:54:30.239
and tabulated on election

1744
00:54:30.240 --> 00:54:32.369
night. And in most elections,

1745
00:54:32.370 --> 00:54:33.719
when the margin between the

1746
00:54:33.720 --> 00:54:35.939
candidates is

1747
00:54:35.940 --> 00:54:38.159
large, you can call an election

1748
00:54:38.160 --> 00:54:40.019
based on 70% of the

1749
00:54:40.020 --> 00:54:42.089
vote. But if it's a narrow margin,

1750
00:54:42.090 --> 00:54:43.409
then you have to wait for all the

1751
00:54:43.410 --> 00:54:45.029
votes to come in.

1752
00:54:45.030 --> 00:54:46.469
And there are slow counting

1753
00:54:46.470 --> 00:54:47.639
processes.

1754
00:54:47.640 --> 00:54:49.259
Election officials are fond of

1755
00:54:49.260 --> 00:54:51.209
saying that results are never

1756
00:54:51.210 --> 00:54:52.859
official on election night.

1757
00:54:52.860 --> 00:54:54.479
That doesn't come for three weeks

1758
00:54:54.480 --> 00:54:56.459
later in the certification.

1759
00:54:56.460 --> 00:54:58.169
There's public pressure to know.

1760
00:54:58.170 --> 00:55:00.269
There's certainly news media

1761
00:55:00.270 --> 00:55:02.309
pressure to know the results

1762
00:55:02.310 --> 00:55:03.299
on election night.

1763
00:55:03.300 --> 00:55:04.769
So that's what happens.

1764
00:55:04.770 --> 00:55:07.199
But Pennsylvania,

1765
00:55:07.200 --> 00:55:10.139
Wisconsin, Arizona

1766
00:55:10.140 --> 00:55:12.329
gets half a million walk

1767
00:55:12.330 --> 00:55:14.849
in votes in Maricopa County

1768
00:55:14.850 --> 00:55:16.559
on Election Day that they have to

1769
00:55:16.560 --> 00:55:17.489
process.

1770
00:55:17.490 --> 00:55:18.899
And it's very slow.

1771
00:55:18.900 --> 00:55:20.789
Georgia is traditionally good at

1772
00:55:20.790 --> 00:55:22.649
getting its votes in.

1773
00:55:22.650 --> 00:55:24.569
North Carolina has got

1774
00:55:24.570 --> 00:55:26.759
the storm damage

1775
00:55:26.760 --> 00:55:28.589
parks, which will probably increase

1776
00:55:28.590 --> 00:55:30.539
its number of mail ballots.

1777
00:55:30.540 --> 00:55:32.189
So that'll take longer.

1778
00:55:33.450 --> 00:55:35.399
Michigan passed some laws that will

1779
00:55:35.400 --> 00:55:37.559
actually move up its count

1780
00:55:37.560 --> 00:55:39.539
further. So the battleground states,

1781
00:55:39.540 --> 00:55:41.429
North Carolina, will be first.

1782
00:55:41.430 --> 00:55:42.959
And, of course, if control of

1783
00:55:42.960 --> 00:55:44.189
Congress is at stake and we're

1784
00:55:44.190 --> 00:55:45.809
waiting for California, good luck.

1785
00:55:45.810 --> 00:55:47.069
And New York.

1786
00:55:47.070 --> 00:55:48.629
Which can just take forever.

1787
00:55:48.630 --> 00:55:49.649
Yeah, Yeah.

1788
00:55:49.650 --> 00:55:51.269
Right. Because there is a law that

1789
00:55:51.270 --> 00:55:53.159
allows absentee ballots to come

1790
00:55:53.160 --> 00:55:55.109
in seven days in California or seven

1791
00:55:55.110 --> 00:55:57.719
days in New York after the election

1792
00:55:57.720 --> 00:55:59.729
in the name of enfranchising more

1793
00:55:59.730 --> 00:56:00.569
voters.

1794
00:56:00.570 --> 00:56:02.669
But that has a real downside

1795
00:56:02.670 --> 00:56:04.289
in terms of getting the results

1796
00:56:04.290 --> 00:56:05.290
quickly.

1797
00:56:06.390 --> 00:56:08.879
And so I think

1798
00:56:08.880 --> 00:56:10.229
this is this will be true for the

1799
00:56:10.230 --> 00:56:11.219
foreseeable future.

1800
00:56:11.220 --> 00:56:12.329
Right? We shouldn't see it as a

1801
00:56:12.330 --> 00:56:14.429
2020, 20, 24 problem

1802
00:56:14.430 --> 00:56:15.569
in part, as long as we are

1803
00:56:15.570 --> 00:56:17.459
polarized, then our elections will

1804
00:56:17.460 --> 00:56:19.169
be close. And one thing we should

1805
00:56:19.170 --> 00:56:20.789
try to do is normalize patience in

1806
00:56:20.790 --> 00:56:21.719
these situations.

1807
00:56:21.720 --> 00:56:23.579
I think that this is a downside

1808
00:56:23.580 --> 00:56:25.649
of the way that our media operates

1809
00:56:25.650 --> 00:56:27.569
now, right? If the media

1810
00:56:27.570 --> 00:56:29.219
is coming from a very disadvantaged

1811
00:56:29.220 --> 00:56:31.049
position, it is newsworthy

1812
00:56:31.050 --> 00:56:32.849
to be able to be the first station

1813
00:56:32.850 --> 00:56:34.199
to announce who has won, which

1814
00:56:34.200 --> 00:56:36.449
state, who has won the election

1815
00:56:36.450 --> 00:56:38.639
writ large. And so the incentive

1816
00:56:38.640 --> 00:56:40.109
structure is all messed up here, but

1817
00:56:40.110 --> 00:56:41.639
it actually has a pretty significant

1818
00:56:41.640 --> 00:56:43.019
downside for our democracy.

1819
00:56:44.780 --> 00:56:46.549
All right. Let's turn it to some

1820
00:56:46.550 --> 00:56:47.479
audience questions.

1821
00:56:47.480 --> 00:56:48.739
And they'll be people coming around

1822
00:56:48.740 --> 00:56:49.969
with mikes. I don't get to call on

1823
00:56:49.970 --> 00:56:51.839
anyone, so we will just wait for

1824
00:56:51.840 --> 00:56:53.599
it. We can't see any of you with the

1825
00:56:53.600 --> 00:56:55.549
lights, so we'll just wait to hear

1826
00:56:55.550 --> 00:56:57.559
a question come from the the

1827
00:56:57.560 --> 00:56:58.560
lights.

1828
00:57:01.710 --> 00:57:03.359
Hi. First of all.

1829
00:57:03.360 --> 00:57:05.219
Thank you all for being here.

1830
00:57:05.220 --> 00:57:05.759
It's a three.

1831
00:57:05.760 --> 00:57:07.229
Part question, but it's not as

1832
00:57:07.230 --> 00:57:08.550
complicated as it sounds.

1833
00:57:09.560 --> 00:57:10.579
How much.

1834
00:57:10.580 --> 00:57:11.389
Of everything.

1835
00:57:11.390 --> 00:57:12.829
We've talked about all night.

1836
00:57:14.420 --> 00:57:15.649
It's related to the.

1837
00:57:15.650 --> 00:57:17.299
Electoral College not.

1838
00:57:17.300 --> 00:57:19.309
Having the election of it

1839
00:57:19.310 --> 00:57:20.310
of the president.

1840
00:57:21.430 --> 00:57:23.799
And you all have

1841
00:57:23.800 --> 00:57:25.809
different you going around

1842
00:57:25.810 --> 00:57:26.859
different lengths of time.

1843
00:57:26.860 --> 00:57:28.749
But over the last ten,

1844
00:57:28.750 --> 00:57:31.239
15, 20, 25 years

1845
00:57:31.240 --> 00:57:32.799
and you've all been very active for

1846
00:57:32.800 --> 00:57:34.099
some time.

1847
00:57:34.100 --> 00:57:35.709
Have your views on the Electoral

1848
00:57:35.710 --> 00:57:36.969
College changed?

1849
00:57:38.080 --> 00:57:39.399
I don't know what they are.

1850
00:57:39.400 --> 00:57:40.209
But I.

1851
00:57:40.210 --> 00:57:41.649
And I understand the theory of.

1852
00:57:41.650 --> 00:57:43.299
The Electoral College.

1853
00:57:43.300 --> 00:57:45.339
But would a direct election

1854
00:57:45.340 --> 00:57:47.769
of the president actually.

1855
00:57:47.770 --> 00:57:49.419
Help any of what we're talking

1856
00:57:49.420 --> 00:57:50.469
about.

1857
00:57:50.470 --> 00:57:52.449
And if so, is

1858
00:57:52.450 --> 00:57:54.129
there any chance in the foreseeable

1859
00:57:54.130 --> 00:57:56.049
future that there's

1860
00:57:56.050 --> 00:57:57.939
any semblance of the Congress

1861
00:57:57.940 --> 00:58:00.099
of the country considering

1862
00:58:00.100 --> 00:58:01.120
that it could change.

1863
00:58:02.230 --> 00:58:03.519
Before any of the panelists answer?

1864
00:58:03.520 --> 00:58:05.349
We did have a panel last week on the

1865
00:58:05.350 --> 00:58:07.299
very topic, and I would point you to

1866
00:58:07.300 --> 00:58:09.519
the Hammer Museum

1867
00:58:09.520 --> 00:58:11.079
website and to the Safeguarding

1868
00:58:11.080 --> 00:58:13.029
Democracy Project website, which

1869
00:58:13.030 --> 00:58:14.380
is Safeguarding Democracy Project.

1870
00:58:15.580 --> 00:58:16.809
And you can hear a very great

1871
00:58:16.810 --> 00:58:18.369
discussion on that. But let me let

1872
00:58:18.370 --> 00:58:19.899
see if any of our panelists want to

1873
00:58:19.900 --> 00:58:21.309
weigh in on this.

1874
00:58:21.310 --> 00:58:23.379
The Electoral College, make

1875
00:58:23.380 --> 00:58:25.269
these problems with our free

1876
00:58:25.270 --> 00:58:26.270
and fair elections.

1877
00:58:28.030 --> 00:58:29.649
Worse, Better.

1878
00:58:29.650 --> 00:58:31.119
I'm not talking about the representation

1879
00:58:31.120 --> 00:58:32.949
issue, but the chances of

1880
00:58:32.950 --> 00:58:34.899
of not having a.

1881
00:58:34.900 --> 00:58:36.610
I'll just jump in and say that

1882
00:58:37.750 --> 00:58:39.759
our popular vote is not nearly as

1883
00:58:39.760 --> 00:58:41.289
tight as our electoral vote.

1884
00:58:41.290 --> 00:58:43.119
And so it all comes back to it

1885
00:58:43.120 --> 00:58:43.959
for Newt as saying we're

1886
00:58:43.960 --> 00:58:46.209
extraordinarily polarized.

1887
00:58:46.210 --> 00:58:48.069
And so anything that makes that

1888
00:58:48.070 --> 00:58:50.259
polarization more of a knife edge,

1889
00:58:50.260 --> 00:58:52.329
like a winner take all system like

1890
00:58:52.330 --> 00:58:54.039
the Electoral College right now, but

1891
00:58:54.040 --> 00:58:56.229
that is not the case always.

1892
00:58:56.230 --> 00:58:58.119
Sometimes the Electoral College

1893
00:58:58.120 --> 00:59:00.429
makes it less likely.

1894
00:59:00.430 --> 00:59:02.379
But right now,

1895
00:59:02.380 --> 00:59:04.029
the popular vote is more clear.

1896
00:59:04.030 --> 00:59:05.499
And so the Electoral College makes

1897
00:59:05.500 --> 00:59:06.309
it tighter.

1898
00:59:06.310 --> 00:59:07.989
And therefore, we're very worried

1899
00:59:07.990 --> 00:59:10.059
about all these knife edge problems.

1900
00:59:10.060 --> 00:59:12.339
However, I think there's virtually

1901
00:59:12.340 --> 00:59:14.020
no chance that it will change.

1902
00:59:15.070 --> 00:59:17.199
The only possible

1903
00:59:17.200 --> 00:59:19.089
hope is these various states

1904
00:59:19.090 --> 00:59:21.009
that have gotten together and said

1905
00:59:21.010 --> 00:59:22.359
that, you know, if enough states get

1906
00:59:22.360 --> 00:59:23.949
together will allocate our votes

1907
00:59:23.950 --> 00:59:25.659
differently. But even that isn't

1908
00:59:25.660 --> 00:59:27.819
very close. So it's not really a

1909
00:59:27.820 --> 00:59:29.649
necessarily useful way

1910
00:59:29.650 --> 00:59:30.969
of looking at it.

1911
00:59:30.970 --> 00:59:33.639
I would also say that

1912
00:59:33.640 --> 00:59:35.169
the hatred in people's hearts is

1913
00:59:35.170 --> 00:59:37.419
hard to change based on structures.

1914
00:59:37.420 --> 00:59:39.309
So I think if you if you change

1915
00:59:39.310 --> 00:59:40.989
the electoral college system and you

1916
00:59:40.990 --> 00:59:43.089
have a popular vote, well, right now

1917
00:59:43.090 --> 00:59:44.799
we're at a period in which one party

1918
00:59:44.800 --> 00:59:45.819
is likely to be winning the

1919
00:59:45.820 --> 00:59:47.649
presidency and a popular vote.

1920
00:59:47.650 --> 00:59:49.659
So the fight would go into some

1921
00:59:49.660 --> 00:59:51.519
other venue because you're not

1922
00:59:51.520 --> 00:59:52.929
going to have one party willing to

1923
00:59:52.930 --> 00:59:54.399
be a permanent minority at the

1924
00:59:54.400 --> 00:59:55.689
presidential level.

1925
00:59:55.690 --> 00:59:56.709
So it would shifted.

1926
00:59:56.710 --> 00:59:58.059
I don't know quite how I would leave

1927
00:59:58.060 --> 00:59:59.859
it to my esteemed legal colleagues,

1928
00:59:59.860 --> 01:00:00.699
but I don't think it would

1929
01:00:00.700 --> 01:00:01.930
necessarily solve it

1930
01:00:03.100 --> 01:00:04.059
for Nader.

1931
01:00:04.060 --> 01:00:06.309
So I think that there's a disconnect

1932
01:00:06.310 --> 01:00:08.019
between our democratic expectations

1933
01:00:08.020 --> 01:00:09.879
and our institutional structures,

1934
01:00:09.880 --> 01:00:12.009
right? We have a an 18th

1935
01:00:12.010 --> 01:00:14.409
century structure

1936
01:00:14.410 --> 01:00:15.879
that was adopted at a time where

1937
01:00:15.880 --> 01:00:17.590
democracy was not the goal.

1938
01:00:18.640 --> 01:00:20.169
Yet we expect it to operate in

1939
01:00:20.170 --> 01:00:21.849
democratic ways.

1940
01:00:21.850 --> 01:00:23.739
We actually have to have a

1941
01:00:23.740 --> 01:00:25.479
come to Jesus moment with ourselves

1942
01:00:25.480 --> 01:00:26.889
that the Electoral College actually

1943
01:00:26.890 --> 01:00:28.809
operates the way it was intended.

1944
01:00:28.810 --> 01:00:30.849
And so when the person who wins

1945
01:00:30.850 --> 01:00:32.319
the Electoral College loses, the

1946
01:00:32.320 --> 01:00:33.609
popular vote goes on to become

1947
01:00:33.610 --> 01:00:35.019
president.

1948
01:00:35.020 --> 01:00:36.969
That's how it works, right?

1949
01:00:36.970 --> 01:00:38.679
And so to the extent that we

1950
01:00:38.680 --> 01:00:40.239
continue having elections that are

1951
01:00:40.240 --> 01:00:41.889
inconsistent with our expectations

1952
01:00:41.890 --> 01:00:44.019
for ourselves as a democracy

1953
01:00:44.020 --> 01:00:45.639
is our own fault.

1954
01:00:45.640 --> 01:00:47.229
And because of that, I find myself

1955
01:00:47.230 --> 01:00:48.819
increasingly agnostic about the

1956
01:00:48.820 --> 01:00:50.349
existence of the Electoral College,

1957
01:00:50.350 --> 01:00:51.639
because I'm tired of us not fixing

1958
01:00:51.640 --> 01:00:53.050
the problems that we complain about.

1959
01:00:55.160 --> 01:00:56.160
Next question, please.

1960
01:01:03.220 --> 01:01:04.239
They're coming with a mike.

1961
01:01:08.790 --> 01:01:10.649
This is another problem

1962
01:01:10.650 --> 01:01:11.249
that.

1963
01:01:11.250 --> 01:01:12.360
Hasn't been discussed.

1964
01:01:13.620 --> 01:01:15.869
An hour ago or so, an Afghan

1965
01:01:15.870 --> 01:01:18.209
man in the United States legally

1966
01:01:18.210 --> 01:01:19.469
was arrested.

1967
01:01:19.470 --> 01:01:20.219
He was planning.

1968
01:01:20.220 --> 01:01:21.209
A mass shooting.

1969
01:01:21.210 --> 01:01:23.249
At a voting site here

1970
01:01:23.250 --> 01:01:24.269
in the United States. You'll hear

1971
01:01:24.270 --> 01:01:25.589
about that tomorrow.

1972
01:01:25.590 --> 01:01:27.749
He apparently was arrested with

1973
01:01:27.750 --> 01:01:29.699
French intelligence involved.

1974
01:01:29.700 --> 01:01:31.289
His eyesight. Okay.

1975
01:01:31.290 --> 01:01:33.479
And so that raises another issue.

1976
01:01:33.480 --> 01:01:35.579
Whether or not people

1977
01:01:35.580 --> 01:01:36.839
are going to be frightened away from

1978
01:01:36.840 --> 01:01:38.909
going to the polls because worried

1979
01:01:38.910 --> 01:01:39.959
about a mass shooting.

1980
01:01:42.110 --> 01:01:43.459
That sounds like a racial question.

1981
01:01:43.460 --> 01:01:45.019
I suppose. I suppose it is.

1982
01:01:45.020 --> 01:01:46.669
I don't know about that case.

1983
01:01:46.670 --> 01:01:48.049
I haven't been reading the news in

1984
01:01:48.050 --> 01:01:49.429
the last hour.

1985
01:01:49.430 --> 01:01:51.709
I will say that in general, violence

1986
01:01:51.710 --> 01:01:53.569
on Election Day is extraordinarily

1987
01:01:53.570 --> 01:01:54.979
rare.

1988
01:01:54.980 --> 01:01:56.989
In 2022, there was a lot of people

1989
01:01:56.990 --> 01:01:59.149
that got all worried about armed

1990
01:01:59.150 --> 01:02:00.949
people at drop boxes.

1991
01:02:00.950 --> 01:02:02.959
And in fact, there was one armed

1992
01:02:02.960 --> 01:02:05.389
person at one drop box

1993
01:02:05.390 --> 01:02:07.159
in the entire country, more than

1994
01:02:07.160 --> 01:02:09.019
13,000 drop boxes,

1995
01:02:09.020 --> 01:02:10.849
and it got thrown all over the news

1996
01:02:10.850 --> 01:02:11.850
everywhere.

1997
01:02:13.070 --> 01:02:14.389
You're going to have sporadic

1998
01:02:14.390 --> 01:02:16.039
things. We have a lot of guns in

1999
01:02:16.040 --> 01:02:17.089
this country.

2000
01:02:17.090 --> 01:02:18.949
We have a good number of people who

2001
01:02:18.950 --> 01:02:20.989
are right on the edge.

2002
01:02:20.990 --> 01:02:22.999
There will be sporadic issues, I'm

2003
01:02:23.000 --> 01:02:25.189
sure, but voting

2004
01:02:25.190 --> 01:02:27.019
day is usually a pretty safe

2005
01:02:27.020 --> 01:02:28.219
day, even in the worst of

2006
01:02:28.220 --> 01:02:29.899
democracies, because both sides are

2007
01:02:29.900 --> 01:02:31.069
really trying to get their people

2008
01:02:31.070 --> 01:02:32.539
out to vote.

2009
01:02:32.540 --> 01:02:34.579
And and it's not the thing

2010
01:02:34.580 --> 01:02:35.899
that I would be most worried about.

2011
01:02:35.900 --> 01:02:37.189
I am worried about a mass shooting

2012
01:02:37.190 --> 01:02:39.409
before, especially

2013
01:02:39.410 --> 01:02:41.329
for immigrant communities, because

2014
01:02:41.330 --> 01:02:43.309
of the level of of

2015
01:02:43.310 --> 01:02:45.769
anger and discussion

2016
01:02:45.770 --> 01:02:48.229
about immigrants right now going on.

2017
01:02:48.230 --> 01:02:50.599
But I think on voting day,

2018
01:02:50.600 --> 01:02:52.279
things do happen in a country as

2019
01:02:52.280 --> 01:02:53.389
armed as ours.

2020
01:02:53.390 --> 01:02:54.949
But I'm not thinking of it as

2021
01:02:54.950 --> 01:02:57.109
something that is most likely.

2022
01:02:57.110 --> 01:02:58.339
It's the aftermath.

2023
01:02:58.340 --> 01:03:00.049
That's really the concerning part.

2024
01:03:00.050 --> 01:03:01.849
Using the violence, as you were

2025
01:03:01.850 --> 01:03:03.679
saying, about the judges, using

2026
01:03:03.680 --> 01:03:05.539
the violence to pressure people to

2027
01:03:05.540 --> 01:03:07.489
come out a certain way because

2028
01:03:07.490 --> 01:03:08.449
they're scared.

2029
01:03:08.450 --> 01:03:09.739
Let me just follow up and ask.

2030
01:03:09.740 --> 01:03:11.359
Maybe maybe Ben's the right person

2031
01:03:11.360 --> 01:03:13.429
for this about all of the focus

2032
01:03:13.430 --> 01:03:16.249
on non-citizen voting now.

2033
01:03:16.250 --> 01:03:17.659
What do you make of it?

2034
01:03:17.660 --> 01:03:19.969
And do you think it's

2035
01:03:19.970 --> 01:03:21.679
it is laying the groundwork for some

2036
01:03:21.680 --> 01:03:23.419
kind of viable strategy or is this

2037
01:03:23.420 --> 01:03:24.830
just a messaging thing?

2038
01:03:26.010 --> 01:03:27.809
I believe it's a messaging thing.

2039
01:03:28.980 --> 01:03:30.479
Having again, having talked to

2040
01:03:30.480 --> 01:03:31.979
election officials.

2041
01:03:31.980 --> 01:03:34.199
They are convinced that non-citizen

2042
01:03:34.200 --> 01:03:36.389
voting is extraordinarily

2043
01:03:36.390 --> 01:03:38.369
rare in this country, that there

2044
01:03:38.370 --> 01:03:40.589
are checks and balances

2045
01:03:40.590 --> 01:03:42.569
in the voter rolls that

2046
01:03:42.570 --> 01:03:44.789
stop noncitizens from voting.

2047
01:03:46.200 --> 01:03:48.179
And you have to put yourself in

2048
01:03:48.180 --> 01:03:50.879
the position of a non-citizen

2049
01:03:50.880 --> 01:03:52.529
who would go into a polling place to

2050
01:03:52.530 --> 01:03:54.389
vote at that point

2051
01:03:54.390 --> 01:03:56.939
for casting one ballot in a race.

2052
01:03:56.940 --> 01:03:59.909
You are putting your very future

2053
01:03:59.910 --> 01:04:02.189
at risk because if you're caught

2054
01:04:02.190 --> 01:04:04.169
as a non-citizen

2055
01:04:04.170 --> 01:04:05.999
vote, if trying to vote,

2056
01:04:06.000 --> 01:04:07.529
you're deported right away.

2057
01:04:07.530 --> 01:04:10.379
And so the cost benefit analysis

2058
01:04:10.380 --> 01:04:12.269
for someone deliberately going

2059
01:04:12.270 --> 01:04:14.219
in and trying to

2060
01:04:14.220 --> 01:04:16.889
vote is a non-citizen is just

2061
01:04:16.890 --> 01:04:18.329
nonexistent, I think.

2062
01:04:18.330 --> 01:04:19.439
Just to correct you, I think that

2063
01:04:19.440 --> 01:04:21.189
you can get imprisoned first before.

2064
01:04:21.190 --> 01:04:22.559
You can probably get to prison.

2065
01:04:22.560 --> 01:04:24.599
It may not be immediate deportation

2066
01:04:24.600 --> 01:04:25.529
for them.

2067
01:04:25.530 --> 01:04:26.999
I will take 1 or 2 more questions

2068
01:04:27.000 --> 01:04:28.469
from the audience before we wrap up.

2069
01:04:29.800 --> 01:04:31.029
Yes. Hi, I'm.

2070
01:04:31.030 --> 01:04:33.309
I was wondering to get your

2071
01:04:33.310 --> 01:04:34.689
opinion.

2072
01:04:34.690 --> 01:04:36.069
We recently had a.

2073
01:04:36.070 --> 01:04:37.959
Fairly strong hurricane

2074
01:04:37.960 --> 01:04:38.829
hit.

2075
01:04:38.830 --> 01:04:39.759
Florida.

2076
01:04:39.760 --> 01:04:41.139
In Georgia and North.

2077
01:04:41.140 --> 01:04:42.399
Carolina.

2078
01:04:42.400 --> 01:04:44.139
Roads washed out.

2079
01:04:44.140 --> 01:04:46.419
Power is still not returned.

2080
01:04:46.420 --> 01:04:47.829
To some areas.

2081
01:04:47.830 --> 01:04:48.009
There.

2082
01:04:48.010 --> 01:04:49.689
Looks like there's another system in

2083
01:04:49.690 --> 01:04:51.159
the Gulf.

2084
01:04:51.160 --> 01:04:53.139
What do you think?

2085
01:04:53.140 --> 01:04:54.729
How would it play out?

2086
01:04:54.730 --> 01:04:56.829
Should there not

2087
01:04:56.830 --> 01:04:59.739
be power at polling stations

2088
01:04:59.740 --> 01:05:02.109
in Florida

2089
01:05:02.110 --> 01:05:03.969
or North Carolina or

2090
01:05:03.970 --> 01:05:06.729
Georgia close to the election?

2091
01:05:06.730 --> 01:05:08.889
How would people vote?

2092
01:05:08.890 --> 01:05:10.899
How would it play out in terms

2093
01:05:10.900 --> 01:05:12.879
of if it's so close?

2094
01:05:12.880 --> 01:05:14.829
What kind of impact would that

2095
01:05:14.830 --> 01:05:15.830
have?

2096
01:05:16.480 --> 01:05:18.429
That's a really great question.

2097
01:05:21.940 --> 01:05:23.559
I've been thinking the same thing

2098
01:05:23.560 --> 01:05:25.299
for about two weeks now, so thank

2099
01:05:25.300 --> 01:05:27.039
you for asking. Well.

2100
01:05:27.040 --> 01:05:29.019
Go ahead. There are two examples

2101
01:05:29.020 --> 01:05:30.020
to look to.

2102
01:05:30.910 --> 01:05:33.159
One is Hurricane Sandy

2103
01:05:33.160 --> 01:05:36.759
that hit right before the 2004

2104
01:05:36.760 --> 01:05:38.209
election.

2105
01:05:38.210 --> 01:05:39.529
But 12.

2106
01:05:39.530 --> 01:05:40.819
Sorry.

2107
01:05:40.820 --> 01:05:43.169
And the other is September

2108
01:05:43.170 --> 01:05:45.109
11th in New York,

2109
01:05:45.110 --> 01:05:47.359
which fell right around the mayoral

2110
01:05:47.360 --> 01:05:48.349
election.

2111
01:05:48.350 --> 01:05:50.359
And what they did was allow

2112
01:05:50.360 --> 01:05:51.360
voting

2113
01:05:52.640 --> 01:05:53.960
a few days later.

2114
01:05:55.640 --> 01:05:57.559
It is one of the weaknesses

2115
01:05:57.560 --> 01:06:00.199
in the Electoral Count Reform Act.

2116
01:06:00.200 --> 01:06:01.159
And what would happen on the

2117
01:06:01.160 --> 01:06:03.349
presidential level with

2118
01:06:03.350 --> 01:06:05.899
much stricter timelines?

2119
01:06:05.900 --> 01:06:07.519
I think it's one of those issues

2120
01:06:07.520 --> 01:06:09.529
that we really haven't come to grips

2121
01:06:09.530 --> 01:06:11.419
with. But there is general

2122
01:06:11.420 --> 01:06:13.399
language in the law that

2123
01:06:13.400 --> 01:06:15.259
says there would be a circumscribed

2124
01:06:15.260 --> 01:06:17.569
area that is affected

2125
01:06:17.570 --> 01:06:19.669
and the voters in that area

2126
01:06:19.670 --> 01:06:21.529
would be allowed to to

2127
01:06:21.530 --> 01:06:23.629
vote at a later date.

2128
01:06:23.630 --> 01:06:25.549
Can I just ask because I really have

2129
01:06:25.550 --> 01:06:27.499
been thinking about this, who is the

2130
01:06:27.500 --> 01:06:28.789
they who would allow it?

2131
01:06:28.790 --> 01:06:29.790
Is it the courts?

2132
01:06:31.370 --> 01:06:33.409
That's part of it not being really

2133
01:06:33.410 --> 01:06:34.519
thought out.

2134
01:06:34.520 --> 01:06:36.589
So in each state, I believe

2135
01:06:36.590 --> 01:06:38.839
that there are elected officials

2136
01:06:38.840 --> 01:06:41.059
who are sort of assigned

2137
01:06:41.060 --> 01:06:42.859
to deal with the question.

2138
01:06:42.860 --> 01:06:44.689
But I think given that whatever

2139
01:06:44.690 --> 01:06:46.609
answer the elected officials come

2140
01:06:46.610 --> 01:06:47.610
up with,

2141
01:06:48.440 --> 01:06:50.209
one party or the other might not

2142
01:06:50.210 --> 01:06:52.039
like that answer and therefore

2143
01:06:52.040 --> 01:06:52.939
would go to court.

2144
01:06:52.940 --> 01:06:54.679
So it would ultimately be up to the

2145
01:06:54.680 --> 01:06:56.119
courts.

2146
01:06:56.120 --> 01:06:57.530
Okay. We'll take one final question.

2147
01:07:12.300 --> 01:07:14.369
This question is for Professor

2148
01:07:14.370 --> 01:07:15.370
Hansen.

2149
01:07:16.020 --> 01:07:18.059
You have faith

2150
01:07:18.060 --> 01:07:20.609
in the judicial system to

2151
01:07:20.610 --> 01:07:21.799
protect.

2152
01:07:21.800 --> 01:07:24.379
Protect us as it did in 2020.

2153
01:07:24.380 --> 01:07:25.549
Would you still have that type of

2154
01:07:25.550 --> 01:07:27.379
faith if one of

2155
01:07:27.380 --> 01:07:28.669
these challenges went all the way up

2156
01:07:28.670 --> 01:07:30.079
to the Supreme Court in light of the

2157
01:07:30.080 --> 01:07:32.029
fact they

2158
01:07:32.030 --> 01:07:34.189
grab the question of it,

2159
01:07:34.190 --> 01:07:36.409
of immunity

2160
01:07:36.410 --> 01:07:38.419
and took it and ruled

2161
01:07:38.420 --> 01:07:40.039
in a way that nobody expected?

2162
01:07:41.960 --> 01:07:43.819
So I think that when you think

2163
01:07:43.820 --> 01:07:44.989
about the courts,

2164
01:07:46.430 --> 01:07:48.509
I kind of divide.

2165
01:07:48.510 --> 01:07:50.339
What the courts do in terms of

2166
01:07:50.340 --> 01:07:52.559
kind of normal politics,

2167
01:07:52.560 --> 01:07:54.599
where increasingly

2168
01:07:54.600 --> 01:07:56.549
the justices divide along

2169
01:07:56.550 --> 01:07:59.129
ideological and party lines.

2170
01:07:59.130 --> 01:08:01.709
With the question of

2171
01:08:01.710 --> 01:08:03.569
the politics of

2172
01:08:03.570 --> 01:08:05.609
peaceful transition of power.

2173
01:08:05.610 --> 01:08:07.289
And if you look at the two pieces of

2174
01:08:07.290 --> 01:08:09.299
evidence that are the strongest, is

2175
01:08:09.300 --> 01:08:11.219
the Supreme Court rejecting a case

2176
01:08:11.220 --> 01:08:12.239
that Texas brought?

2177
01:08:13.440 --> 01:08:15.149
Directly to the Supreme Court trying

2178
01:08:15.150 --> 01:08:16.679
to get votes overturned.

2179
01:08:16.680 --> 01:08:18.089
It was a perfect vehicle because it

2180
01:08:18.090 --> 01:08:20.129
was a

2181
01:08:20.130 --> 01:08:21.059
case that didn't go through the

2182
01:08:21.060 --> 01:08:22.228
lower courts. Right. Of the Supreme

2183
01:08:22.229 --> 01:08:23.068
Court. If the Supreme Court was

2184
01:08:23.069 --> 01:08:24.659
going to be lawless, that was the

2185
01:08:24.660 --> 01:08:25.499
moment to do it.

2186
01:08:25.500 --> 01:08:27.209
And not a single justice was willing

2187
01:08:27.210 --> 01:08:28.858
to address it on the merits.

2188
01:08:28.859 --> 01:08:30.688
And then the other was there was a

2189
01:08:30.689 --> 01:08:32.938
case that the court decided in 2023

2190
01:08:32.939 --> 01:08:34.579
called Moore versus Harper.

2191
01:08:34.580 --> 01:08:36.839
It's the most complicated case

2192
01:08:36.840 --> 01:08:38.789
in election law, period.

2193
01:08:38.790 --> 01:08:40.079
Like to just try to explain it

2194
01:08:40.080 --> 01:08:41.969
briefly so I won't but I'll just say

2195
01:08:41.970 --> 01:08:44.339
that the court in that case rejected

2196
01:08:44.340 --> 01:08:45.389
an extreme version, that

2197
01:08:45.390 --> 01:08:46.769
legislatures have a kind of free

2198
01:08:46.770 --> 01:08:48.028
floating power to do whatever they

2199
01:08:48.029 --> 01:08:49.228
want and overturn the will of the

2200
01:08:49.229 --> 01:08:50.489
voters.

2201
01:08:50.490 --> 01:08:52.438
Even that got maybe two votes

2202
01:08:52.439 --> 01:08:53.369
on the court.

2203
01:08:53.370 --> 01:08:55.199
So I think that even though the the

2204
01:08:55.200 --> 01:08:57.329
judges and justices are divided

2205
01:08:57.330 --> 01:08:58.709
along ideological lines on, for

2206
01:08:58.710 --> 01:09:00.449
example, how to read the Voting

2207
01:09:00.450 --> 01:09:01.799
Rights Act or what to think about

2208
01:09:01.800 --> 01:09:03.749
campaign finance reform, so

2209
01:09:03.750 --> 01:09:05.369
far, they've held the line on free

2210
01:09:05.370 --> 01:09:06.239
and fair elections.

2211
01:09:06.240 --> 01:09:08.129
And part of my work I see

2212
01:09:08.130 --> 01:09:10.019
is telling them, great,

2213
01:09:10.020 --> 01:09:10.919
keep doing that.

2214
01:09:10.920 --> 01:09:12.119
And, you know, that's really what's

2215
01:09:12.120 --> 01:09:13.259
the message we're trying to give the

2216
01:09:13.260 --> 01:09:14.789
courts. I don't know if anyone else

2217
01:09:14.790 --> 01:09:16.619
wants to weigh in on the role

2218
01:09:16.620 --> 01:09:18.358
of the judiciary here.

2219
01:09:18.359 --> 01:09:19.589
No.

2220
01:09:19.590 --> 01:09:21.659
If not, let me thank you all for

2221
01:09:21.660 --> 01:09:22.919
coming. And please join me in

2222
01:09:22.920 --> 01:09:23.920
thanking our panelists.