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Hi, everybody.

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Welcome to the Hammer Museum.

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I'm Claudia Bestor.

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I'm the director of public programs

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here. And I'm really pleased to

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welcome you to tonight's Hammer

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Forum on the right to vote

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with UCLA law professor Rick

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Hasen And UC Berkeley Law School

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dean Erwin Chemerinsky.

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The Hammer Forum is a monthly series

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of public discussions about current

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social and political issues, and

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it's made possible with the generous

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support of the Rosenbloom Family

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Foundation.

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I want to quickly mention that the

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Hammer Museum is having a theme

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this year for 2024 of

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voter registration and voter

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engagement.

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The hammer will serve as a voting

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center for the primary election next

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month, as well as for the fall

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presidential election.

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Our voting center opens on Saturday,

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March 2nd at 10 a.m., and it

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closes on Tuesday, March 5th at 8

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p.m. so you can come by,

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see our exhibitions, vote,

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have a drink in our bar and make a

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day of it.

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If anyone in the audience is under

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18 or knows people ages 16

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to 18, you might want to let them

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know, that here in the state of

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California. You can preregister to

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vote.

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Once you turn 16, and then

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you will automatically be registered

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to vote on your birthday.

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On your 18th birthday.

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Not that many people know about it,

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but I think it's amazing.

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And we're going to start trying to

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promote the heck out of that here.

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Anyway, onto tonight's program

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and tonight's forum.

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We'll talk about the right to vote.

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The right to vote has been and is

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still being challenged all over the

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country, as different political

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factions in different states have

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tried to disenfranchize military

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voters, women, African American

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students, former felons,

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neighborhood Native Americans, and

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others.

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What can we do to ensure that every

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citizen can vote in federal

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elections?

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That's tonight's topic.

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And tonight we handed out copies of

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the US Constitution and the Bill of

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rights to all of you in the

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audience.

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Feel free to flip through that at

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your leisure and look for the

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spot where it guarantees each of

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you the right to vote.

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It might be tough.

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Not tough to read that we encourage

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everyone to read their constitution,

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and it's actually very readable.

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And we used to have Constitution

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happy hour, where we would go

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through the Constitution together

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over a beer, and we might

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have to bring that back. I think

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it's about time.

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So look for that in our next

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calendar.

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So I'm going to introduce our guest

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speakers and then we'll get started.

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Professor Rick Hasen is a professor

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of law and political science here at

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UCLA, and he's the director of the

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UCLA Law School's Safeguarding

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Democracy Project.

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Hasen is a nationally recognized

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expert in election law and campaign

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finance regulation, and coauthor

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of the leading case books and

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Election Law and Remedies.

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He's the author of over 100 articles

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on election law issues published in

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numerous journals, including the

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Harvard Law Review, Stanford Law

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Review, and Supreme Court Review.

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And he was, and he was founding

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coeditor of the Election Law

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Journal.

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He was elected to the American Law

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Institute in 2009, and served as

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an advisor on their law reform

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project called Principles

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of Election Law.

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Resolution of Election Disputes.

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His op eds and commentaries appear

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in many publications, including The

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New York Times, The Washington Post,

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and Politico.

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And he also writes the oft quoted

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election law blog.

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His prescient book, Election

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Meltdown Dirty Tricks, distrust,

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and the Threat to American

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Democracy, was published in

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2020, and his 2022

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book Cheap Speech How Disinformation

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Poisons Our Politics and How to Cure

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It was named one of the four best

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books on disinformation by The New

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York Times.

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His newest book is called A Real

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Right to Vote How a Constitutional

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Amendment Can Safeguard American

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Democracy, and it was just published

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by Princeton University Press in

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February last month.

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This month, still February

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this month, and we have

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copies available out in our lobby.

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Erwin Chemerinsky is the dean of the

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UC Berkeley School of Law.

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He's the author of innumerable

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books, including reading case books

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and treatises about constitutional

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law, criminal procedure, and

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federal jurisdiction.

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Some of his most recent books

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include We the People A Progressive

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Reading of the Constitution for the

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21st century, Free

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Speech on Campus with Howard Gilman,

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and most recently, a book on

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constitutional interpretation, and

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the Supreme Court called Worse Than

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Nothing Dangerous Fallacy of

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Originalism.

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Last year, Dean Timmermans came

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and gave a series of three talks

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about the past, present and future

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of the Supreme Court.

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They're amazing and enlightening,

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and you can see them in their

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entirety on the Hamer website.

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Rick Hasen is also spoken here at

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least five times before on various

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other topics of voting, on elections

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and campaign financing, and those

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talks are also all available on the

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Hamer website.

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So you could really get a great

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constitutional law education if

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you want to check them out online.

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After tonight's talk and Q&A,

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we're going to have some light

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refreshments and copies of these

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books for sale in the theater lobby.

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And while Erwin Chemerinsky

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is, shooting back up to

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Berkeley, Rick Hasen will be

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hanging out and happy to sign some

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for you. And maybe we can keep on

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talking about his ideas.

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So without further ado, please join

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me in welcoming Rick Hasen

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and Erwin Chemerinsky.

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Do we do anything?

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I don't think so.

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Is this art? Great.

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Welcome. It's such an honor and a

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pleasure to be with you.

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And it's terrific to have the

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opportunity to talk with Rick.

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But his wonderful new book, a real

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write about.

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Let me start by asking, why did you

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write the book?

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Well, first, thank you everyone for

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coming down just for this event.

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We we appreciate you.

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Here in Southern California.

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Well. Welcome back.

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Thank you.

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So, when Claudia was out here

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telling you to, look in the

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Constitution to find the

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guarantee of your right to vote, it

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was actually a trick question.

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There is no right to vote in the

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Constitution.

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There are,

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prohibitions on discrimination

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in voting. So if there's going

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to be an election, you can't

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discriminate on the basis of race or

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gender, but there's nothing in the

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Constitution.

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And it struck me every four

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years I get into a situation

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where, the press starts

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to call.

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Why are elections so messed up?

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Why are there armies of lawyers

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getting ready to litigate over our

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elections?

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You know, what is the problem?

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And really, the United

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States is anomalous.

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If you look at other countries that

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are otherwise like the United

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States, modern advanced democracies,

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Germany, Australia,

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Canada, they don't have

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fights over elections.

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They don't wonder if they can hold a

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free and fair election.

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And it struck me that a big part of

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the problem is our Constitution,

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our old Constitution that

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doesn't guarantee the right to vote,

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doesn't set up really a system for

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running elections, and instead

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leaves it mostly to the states.

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And so I thought

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rather than just deal with the small

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problems that come up each election,

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and they're different in every

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election.

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Let's go to the surface

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below the surface and figure out

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what's really going on.

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And why is our American democracy

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so dysfunctional?

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Why doesn't the Constitution create

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a right to vote?

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So if you go back to the

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founding, you go back to the 1780s.

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There was a lot of distrust of

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voting.

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Voting was a new phenomenon.

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If you look at the choice for

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president in article two of the

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Constitution, it says that

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state legislatures get to set the

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manner for conducting.

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Election. Doesn't say anything

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about that.

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They have to let the people vote.

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And if you look at the

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rules for the Senate, no

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right to vote for senators.

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We didn't get that right until the

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early 20th century in the 17th

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amendment.

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And even if you look at the US House

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of Representatives, where there is

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a mention of an election, it says,

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who gets to vote in that election?

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It is whoever is qualified

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to vote under state law in each

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state. And so there was a distrust

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of voting, obviously, in the slave

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states, they were not letting

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African-Americans vote, but there

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were many women were not allowed to

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vote.

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In some places you had to

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own property.

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These were the original rules, and

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those were the rules that made sense

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to some of the founders.

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They're not rules that really make

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sense to us today.

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00:09:09.550 --> 00:09:11.529
And yet, in the case of

288
00:09:11.530 --> 00:09:13.539
Bush versus Gore, the 2000 case

289
00:09:13.540 --> 00:09:14.979
that ended the dispute over the

290
00:09:14.980 --> 00:09:16.839
Florida election, the Supreme Court

291
00:09:16.840 --> 00:09:18.969
reminded us that the Constitution

292
00:09:18.970 --> 00:09:20.949
gives the people no

293
00:09:20.950 --> 00:09:22.389
right to vote for president.

294
00:09:22.390 --> 00:09:24.309
By the grace of legislatures.

295
00:09:24.310 --> 00:09:25.659
We have the right to vote for

296
00:09:25.660 --> 00:09:27.579
president. But the court reminds us

297
00:09:27.580 --> 00:09:29.499
in 2000, mean this is not

298
00:09:29.500 --> 00:09:30.699
ancient history.

299
00:09:30.700 --> 00:09:32.589
The states can take back that power

300
00:09:32.590 --> 00:09:34.479
at any time and disenfranchize us.

301
00:09:34.480 --> 00:09:37.389
I mean, that is really profoundly

302
00:09:37.390 --> 00:09:38.919
anti-democratic.

303
00:09:38.920 --> 00:09:40.959
And yet in reality, there is

304
00:09:40.960 --> 00:09:42.789
a right to vote, and

305
00:09:42.790 --> 00:09:44.889
it is secured by federal statutes

306
00:09:44.890 --> 00:09:46.389
like the Voting Rights Act as well.

307
00:09:46.390 --> 00:09:48.189
So what difference would it make to

308
00:09:48.190 --> 00:09:50.079
have a constitutional amendment

309
00:09:50.080 --> 00:09:52.119
that protected the right to vote?

310
00:09:52.120 --> 00:09:53.649
Right. So I think we have to look at

311
00:09:53.650 --> 00:09:55.749
the history of what happened after

312
00:09:55.750 --> 00:09:56.889
the founding.

313
00:09:56.890 --> 00:09:59.169
And so as more

314
00:09:59.170 --> 00:10:01.779
people were allowed to vote,

315
00:10:01.780 --> 00:10:03.579
there were disputes over what the

316
00:10:03.580 --> 00:10:04.629
rules should be.

317
00:10:04.630 --> 00:10:06.789
Some of those disputes led to

318
00:10:06.790 --> 00:10:08.469
constitutional amendments.

319
00:10:08.470 --> 00:10:10.179
So, for example, after the Civil

320
00:10:10.180 --> 00:10:12.099
War, the 14th

321
00:10:12.100 --> 00:10:13.779
amendment guaranteed the privileges

322
00:10:13.780 --> 00:10:15.399
or immunities of citizenship,

323
00:10:15.400 --> 00:10:17.349
guaranteed,

324
00:10:17.350 --> 00:10:18.429
equal protection.

325
00:10:18.430 --> 00:10:20.049
The 15th amendment barred race

326
00:10:20.050 --> 00:10:21.729
discrimination in voting.

327
00:10:21.730 --> 00:10:23.529
The 19th amendment forgot in 1920,

328
00:10:23.530 --> 00:10:24.879
barred gender discrimination in

329
00:10:24.880 --> 00:10:27.009
voting. So each of these

330
00:10:27.010 --> 00:10:29.109
added something, and I think

331
00:10:29.110 --> 00:10:31.449
you could cobble together

332
00:10:31.450 --> 00:10:33.039
from the different pieces of the

333
00:10:33.040 --> 00:10:34.149
Constitution that there's an

334
00:10:34.150 --> 00:10:35.799
implicit right to vote.

335
00:10:35.800 --> 00:10:37.929
In fact, in the famous

336
00:10:37.930 --> 00:10:39.879
case of Shelby County versus holder,

337
00:10:39.880 --> 00:10:41.799
this was the case where the Supreme

338
00:10:41.800 --> 00:10:43.689
Court struck down a key part

339
00:10:43.690 --> 00:10:45.429
of the Voting Rights Act, saying

340
00:10:45.430 --> 00:10:46.989
that Congress had exceeded its

341
00:10:46.990 --> 00:10:48.459
authority in that case.

342
00:10:48.460 --> 00:10:50.529
Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg,

343
00:10:50.530 --> 00:10:52.509
in her dissent, said, read

344
00:10:52.510 --> 00:10:53.859
all these parts together.

345
00:10:53.860 --> 00:10:55.749
What this really is, is a right to

346
00:10:55.750 --> 00:10:57.609
vote and an invitation to Congress

347
00:10:57.610 --> 00:10:59.559
to protect that right to vote.

348
00:10:59.560 --> 00:11:01.569
Unfortunately, the

349
00:11:01.570 --> 00:11:03.549
history of the courts is

350
00:11:03.550 --> 00:11:05.589
that they have not, except

351
00:11:05.590 --> 00:11:07.419
for a about a decade

352
00:11:07.420 --> 00:11:09.939
period of the 235

353
00:11:09.940 --> 00:11:11.799
year history of the Supreme Court.

354
00:11:11.800 --> 00:11:14.109
The court has been not protective

355
00:11:14.110 --> 00:11:15.369
of voting rights.

356
00:11:15.370 --> 00:11:17.439
Let me tell two quick stories.

357
00:11:17.440 --> 00:11:19.269
1874

358
00:11:19.270 --> 00:11:21.069
A woman named Virginia minor.

359
00:11:21.070 --> 00:11:23.379
She was a Missouri citizen.

360
00:11:23.380 --> 00:11:25.389
She was a adult white

361
00:11:25.390 --> 00:11:27.159
woman. She went to the Supreme Court

362
00:11:27.160 --> 00:11:29.109
and she said, I'm

363
00:11:29.110 --> 00:11:30.759
protected by the 14th amendment,

364
00:11:30.760 --> 00:11:32.739
which had just been ratified.

365
00:11:32.740 --> 00:11:33.939
A privilege or immunity of

366
00:11:33.940 --> 00:11:35.379
citizenship is voting.

367
00:11:35.380 --> 00:11:36.699
Missouri is not letting me vote

368
00:11:36.700 --> 00:11:38.289
because I'm a woman.

369
00:11:38.290 --> 00:11:40.179
And the all male Supreme Court said,

370
00:11:40.180 --> 00:11:42.519
yes, you are a citizen, but

371
00:11:42.520 --> 00:11:43.809
voting is not a right of

372
00:11:43.810 --> 00:11:45.039
citizenship.

373
00:11:45.040 --> 00:11:46.449
That is really up to the state of

374
00:11:46.450 --> 00:11:47.409
Missouri.

375
00:11:47.410 --> 00:11:49.239
And then it took more than four

376
00:11:49.240 --> 00:11:51.069
decades until 1920, when we

377
00:11:51.070 --> 00:11:52.359
got the passage of the 19th

378
00:11:52.360 --> 00:11:53.919
amendment. And I want to talk later

379
00:11:53.920 --> 00:11:55.749
about the political movement that

380
00:11:55.750 --> 00:11:57.039
was formed around that amendment,

381
00:11:57.040 --> 00:11:58.629
which was actually a positive story,

382
00:11:58.630 --> 00:12:00.489
but the court was not protective.

383
00:12:00.490 --> 00:12:02.559
Even worse was the story of Jackson

384
00:12:02.560 --> 00:12:03.639
Giles.

385
00:12:03.640 --> 00:12:05.529
He was an adult citizen resident of

386
00:12:05.530 --> 00:12:06.639
Alabama.

387
00:12:06.640 --> 00:12:07.869
He went to the Supreme Court and

388
00:12:07.870 --> 00:12:09.969
said, you know, it's been

389
00:12:09.970 --> 00:12:11.949
over 30 years since the passage

390
00:12:11.950 --> 00:12:13.659
of the 15th amendment, which bars

391
00:12:13.660 --> 00:12:15.009
discrimination in voting on the

392
00:12:15.010 --> 00:12:16.179
basis of race.

393
00:12:16.180 --> 00:12:17.709
And yet, Alabama is not letting me

394
00:12:17.710 --> 00:12:19.689
register to vote because I'm black.

395
00:12:19.690 --> 00:12:21.069
And the Supreme Court said, yeah,

396
00:12:21.070 --> 00:12:22.299
well, sorry about that.

397
00:12:22.300 --> 00:12:23.769
There's really nothing we can do.

398
00:12:23.770 --> 00:12:25.119
We're just a court.

399
00:12:25.120 --> 00:12:27.819
And it was not until 1965,

400
00:12:27.820 --> 00:12:29.559
as you mentioned, when Congress

401
00:12:29.560 --> 00:12:32.169
passed the Voting Rights Act, where,

402
00:12:32.170 --> 00:12:33.279
African-Americans were really

403
00:12:33.280 --> 00:12:35.679
enfranchised in much of the South.

404
00:12:35.680 --> 00:12:37.569
And while it's all well and good to

405
00:12:37.570 --> 00:12:39.339
say we'll have Congress protect our

406
00:12:39.340 --> 00:12:41.199
voting rights, first of all, the

407
00:12:41.200 --> 00:12:42.879
Supreme Court is cutting back

408
00:12:42.880 --> 00:12:44.469
further and further on the scope of

409
00:12:44.470 --> 00:12:45.669
the Voting Rights Act.

410
00:12:45.670 --> 00:12:47.049
And second, the way Congress is

411
00:12:47.050 --> 00:12:49.209
today, it's very hard to imagine

412
00:12:49.210 --> 00:12:51.339
that they're going to come along

413
00:12:51.340 --> 00:12:53.259
and be able to pass any legislation

414
00:12:53.260 --> 00:12:54.399
that's going to increase voting

415
00:12:54.400 --> 00:12:55.329
rights, either.

416
00:12:55.330 --> 00:12:57.699
So we need to have a longer term,

417
00:12:57.700 --> 00:12:59.559
more positive vision

418
00:12:59.560 --> 00:13:01.479
of what the Constitution should

419
00:13:01.480 --> 00:13:02.419
read.

420
00:13:02.420 --> 00:13:03.919
And do so in a way that's not going

421
00:13:03.920 --> 00:13:05.929
to be as dependent on the courts

422
00:13:05.930 --> 00:13:07.669
as we have been in the past for our

423
00:13:07.670 --> 00:13:08.599
right to vote.

424
00:13:08.600 --> 00:13:09.949
I want to come back to a couple of

425
00:13:09.950 --> 00:13:11.299
things you just said in a moment.

426
00:13:11.300 --> 00:13:12.259
But before I do.

427
00:13:12.260 --> 00:13:14.149
Could you explain what difference

428
00:13:14.150 --> 00:13:16.039
would it make today to put

429
00:13:16.040 --> 00:13:18.649
in the Constitution a right to vote?

430
00:13:18.650 --> 00:13:20.599
So my right to vote, and you can see

431
00:13:20.600 --> 00:13:22.459
if you flip to the back of the book,

432
00:13:22.460 --> 00:13:23.479
there's an appendix.

433
00:13:23.480 --> 00:13:25.159
It doesn't just say that there's a

434
00:13:25.160 --> 00:13:27.049
right to vote for not just

435
00:13:27.050 --> 00:13:28.159
for president, but for other

436
00:13:28.160 --> 00:13:28.939
offices.

437
00:13:28.940 --> 00:13:30.739
It says other things as well.

438
00:13:30.740 --> 00:13:32.569
And so one of those things that

439
00:13:32.570 --> 00:13:34.489
it would do is it would

440
00:13:34.490 --> 00:13:36.499
change the way that the courts

441
00:13:36.500 --> 00:13:38.569
evaluate burdens on voters.

442
00:13:38.570 --> 00:13:40.429
So right now, if a state passes

443
00:13:40.430 --> 00:13:42.169
a burdensome voting rule, and let me

444
00:13:42.170 --> 00:13:43.519
make this a little more concrete.

445
00:13:44.900 --> 00:13:47.179
In North Dakota, after

446
00:13:47.180 --> 00:13:49.039
Heidi Heitkamp, who was a Democrat,

447
00:13:50.150 --> 00:13:52.129
who was reelected a senator by only

448
00:13:52.130 --> 00:13:54.349
3000 votes in North Dakota

449
00:13:54.350 --> 00:13:56.389
after she narrowly won election,

450
00:13:56.390 --> 00:13:58.219
the North Dakota legislature decided

451
00:13:58.220 --> 00:14:00.049
to pass a rule that said, if you

452
00:14:00.050 --> 00:14:01.729
want to vote in the state, you must

453
00:14:01.730 --> 00:14:03.529
produce a residential street

454
00:14:03.530 --> 00:14:04.649
address.

455
00:14:04.650 --> 00:14:06.439
It doesn't seem like a big deal

456
00:14:06.440 --> 00:14:08.059
unless you live on an Indian

457
00:14:08.060 --> 00:14:09.289
reservation. If you're a Native

458
00:14:09.290 --> 00:14:11.419
American who's poor and you don't

459
00:14:11.420 --> 00:14:13.369
have a residential street address.

460
00:14:13.370 --> 00:14:15.169
You could be disenfranchized.

461
00:14:15.170 --> 00:14:17.389
It took six years

462
00:14:17.390 --> 00:14:19.249
of litigation, and in the

463
00:14:19.250 --> 00:14:21.529
process and along the way,

464
00:14:21.530 --> 00:14:23.239
some of these voters were

465
00:14:23.240 --> 00:14:24.800
effectively disenfranchized

466
00:14:25.910 --> 00:14:28.549
because they had to fight

467
00:14:28.550 --> 00:14:29.689
over these rules.

468
00:14:29.690 --> 00:14:31.669
And so I would not only guarantee

469
00:14:31.670 --> 00:14:33.379
a right to vote, but I would change

470
00:14:33.380 --> 00:14:34.939
the way that courts would address

471
00:14:34.940 --> 00:14:35.989
these questions.

472
00:14:35.990 --> 00:14:37.099
One of the things I would do is

473
00:14:37.100 --> 00:14:39.199
require every state to affirmatively

474
00:14:39.200 --> 00:14:41.479
register all eligible voters.

475
00:14:41.480 --> 00:14:43.489
I would require the state to

476
00:14:43.490 --> 00:14:45.409
put the courts to put a thumb on

477
00:14:45.410 --> 00:14:47.179
the scale favoring voters when they

478
00:14:47.180 --> 00:14:48.949
address these kinds of disputes.

479
00:14:48.950 --> 00:14:50.779
And I would enshrine part of the

480
00:14:50.780 --> 00:14:52.129
Voting Rights Act, the part that

481
00:14:52.130 --> 00:14:53.959
says that minority voters should

482
00:14:53.960 --> 00:14:55.309
be able to participate in the

483
00:14:55.310 --> 00:14:57.229
political process and to elect

484
00:14:57.230 --> 00:14:58.669
representatives of their choice.

485
00:14:58.670 --> 00:14:59.599
I would enshrine that in the

486
00:14:59.600 --> 00:15:01.759
Constitution itself so that

487
00:15:01.760 --> 00:15:03.319
a future Congress couldn't take that

488
00:15:03.320 --> 00:15:04.279
away.

489
00:15:04.280 --> 00:15:05.539
I want to go back to a couple of

490
00:15:05.540 --> 00:15:07.639
things you said just a moment ago

491
00:15:07.640 --> 00:15:09.259
when I said, why not do this by

492
00:15:09.260 --> 00:15:11.449
statute? You said, it's so unlikely

493
00:15:11.450 --> 00:15:13.549
that Congress would pass another

494
00:15:13.550 --> 00:15:15.109
Voting Rights Act.

495
00:15:15.110 --> 00:15:17.059
But to adopt a constitutional

496
00:15:17.060 --> 00:15:18.889
amendment takes two thirds

497
00:15:18.890 --> 00:15:20.569
of both houses of Congress.

498
00:15:20.570 --> 00:15:22.729
If Congress unlikely to pass a bill

499
00:15:22.730 --> 00:15:24.489
by majority vote, why?

500
00:15:24.490 --> 00:15:25.939
You think they'd do it by two thirds

501
00:15:25.940 --> 00:15:26.449
vote.

502
00:15:26.450 --> 00:15:28.339
You sound like the editor who

503
00:15:28.340 --> 00:15:30.409
I pitched for this book.

504
00:15:30.410 --> 00:15:32.089
That's a great question.

505
00:15:32.090 --> 00:15:33.529
And so now I need to go back to the

506
00:15:33.530 --> 00:15:35.419
story of the passage of the 19th

507
00:15:35.420 --> 00:15:36.469
amendment.

508
00:15:36.470 --> 00:15:39.889
And so I told you, 1874,

509
00:15:39.890 --> 00:15:41.749
Virginia minor loses at the Supreme

510
00:15:41.750 --> 00:15:43.609
Court in minor versus half percent.

511
00:15:43.610 --> 00:15:44.989
And there had been a women's

512
00:15:44.990 --> 00:15:47.479
suffrage movement before 1874.

513
00:15:47.480 --> 00:15:48.649
It actually goes back to the

514
00:15:48.650 --> 00:15:49.819
founding.

515
00:15:49.820 --> 00:15:51.469
Abigail Adams, it goes back a long

516
00:15:51.470 --> 00:15:54.319
way. But what happened after 1874

517
00:15:54.320 --> 00:15:56.449
is that the Supreme Court said

518
00:15:56.450 --> 00:15:58.549
this is a matter for the states.

519
00:15:58.550 --> 00:16:00.829
And so then women and

520
00:16:00.830 --> 00:16:02.629
men who are supporting women's right

521
00:16:02.630 --> 00:16:04.699
to vote, organized

522
00:16:04.700 --> 00:16:06.799
state by state in order

523
00:16:06.800 --> 00:16:09.469
to get, support

524
00:16:09.470 --> 00:16:11.389
for an amendment to the Constitution

525
00:16:11.390 --> 00:16:12.739
for enfranchisement.

526
00:16:12.740 --> 00:16:15.919
By the time we got to 1920,

527
00:16:15.920 --> 00:16:17.929
over 30 states had

528
00:16:17.930 --> 00:16:19.939
amended their state constitutions

529
00:16:19.940 --> 00:16:21.949
to give women the right to vote, and

530
00:16:21.950 --> 00:16:23.929
along the way, support for women's

531
00:16:23.930 --> 00:16:25.519
suffrage grew.

532
00:16:25.520 --> 00:16:27.349
I am not thinking of this amendment

533
00:16:27.350 --> 00:16:29.089
as something that's going to happen,

534
00:16:29.090 --> 00:16:31.249
you know, before the 2028,

535
00:16:31.250 --> 00:16:32.959
presidential election.

536
00:16:32.960 --> 00:16:34.429
But I am thinking about something

537
00:16:34.430 --> 00:16:35.929
that might happen in my children's

538
00:16:35.930 --> 00:16:36.949
lifetime.

539
00:16:36.950 --> 00:16:38.779
And so it has to be a political

540
00:16:38.780 --> 00:16:41.389
movement. You know, people

541
00:16:41.390 --> 00:16:43.069
agitate about voting rights, but

542
00:16:43.070 --> 00:16:45.469
they don't have a necessary program

543
00:16:45.470 --> 00:16:47.059
or platform. And this is meant to be

544
00:16:47.060 --> 00:16:48.229
an organizing principle.

545
00:16:48.230 --> 00:16:49.429
It's something people can get

546
00:16:49.430 --> 00:16:50.209
behind.

547
00:16:50.210 --> 00:16:51.379
There was a movement like this

548
00:16:51.380 --> 00:16:52.699
towards the Equal Rights Amendment.

549
00:16:52.700 --> 00:16:54.679
It didn't pass, but it did

550
00:16:54.680 --> 00:16:57.139
have social benefits along the way.

551
00:16:57.140 --> 00:16:59.059
And so I see this as not a

552
00:16:59.060 --> 00:17:00.029
on off switch.

553
00:17:00.030 --> 00:17:01.189
We're going to get the amendment or

554
00:17:01.190 --> 00:17:03.769
not, but as a process.

555
00:17:03.770 --> 00:17:05.328
And that process will educate the

556
00:17:05.329 --> 00:17:06.529
American people.

557
00:17:06.530 --> 00:17:07.729
I mean, people are really shocked

558
00:17:07.730 --> 00:17:08.989
when they find out that there is no

559
00:17:08.990 --> 00:17:10.219
affirmative right to vote in the

560
00:17:10.220 --> 00:17:11.239
Constitution.

561
00:17:11.240 --> 00:17:12.828
And as we see things that are

562
00:17:12.829 --> 00:17:14.779
happening today, just this

563
00:17:14.780 --> 00:17:16.789
week or just last week in

564
00:17:16.790 --> 00:17:19.068
Arizona, a state legislator

565
00:17:19.069 --> 00:17:21.169
introduced a bill that would allow

566
00:17:21.170 --> 00:17:23.059
the state legislature, rather

567
00:17:23.060 --> 00:17:24.588
than the courts, to decide if

568
00:17:24.589 --> 00:17:26.149
there's a dispute who won the

569
00:17:26.150 --> 00:17:28.599
presidential election in Arizona.

570
00:17:28.600 --> 00:17:30.489
That's not something that we should

571
00:17:30.490 --> 00:17:31.839
have to fight about over every

572
00:17:31.840 --> 00:17:33.009
election that should be off the

573
00:17:33.010 --> 00:17:34.929
table. And so we need a long term

574
00:17:34.930 --> 00:17:36.670
movement to try to achieve that.

575
00:17:38.020 --> 00:17:40.209
I think it's a very powerful answer.

576
00:17:40.210 --> 00:17:41.739
But then I want to talk about the

577
00:17:41.740 --> 00:17:43.629
proposals that are in the appendix

578
00:17:43.630 --> 00:17:44.799
to your book.

579
00:17:44.800 --> 00:17:46.839
And among the things that aren't

580
00:17:46.840 --> 00:17:48.699
in your core proposal is

581
00:17:48.700 --> 00:17:50.440
eliminating the Electoral College.

582
00:17:51.490 --> 00:17:53.559
Changing two senators per state,

583
00:17:53.560 --> 00:17:54.639
which I don't think you can amend

584
00:17:54.640 --> 00:17:56.529
the Constitution to do.

585
00:17:56.530 --> 00:17:57.759
Getting rid of Partizan

586
00:17:57.760 --> 00:17:58.869
gerrymandering.

587
00:17:58.870 --> 00:18:00.819
So if our goal is to be

588
00:18:00.820 --> 00:18:02.739
aspirational long term,

589
00:18:02.740 --> 00:18:04.869
why do you back away from these

590
00:18:04.870 --> 00:18:05.870
changes?

591
00:18:06.740 --> 00:18:08.269
So well, let me bracket

592
00:18:08.270 --> 00:18:09.589
gerrymandering for a minute and let

593
00:18:09.590 --> 00:18:11.569
me talk about how I structured

594
00:18:11.570 --> 00:18:12.979
my proposed amendment.

595
00:18:12.980 --> 00:18:14.809
So I have the basic amendment,

596
00:18:14.810 --> 00:18:16.129
which has the things that I talked

597
00:18:16.130 --> 00:18:18.529
about, all

598
00:18:18.530 --> 00:18:20.809
citizen adult residents,

599
00:18:20.810 --> 00:18:21.769
people who have completed their

600
00:18:21.770 --> 00:18:23.569
felony convictions, they all get the

601
00:18:23.570 --> 00:18:24.709
right to vote.

602
00:18:24.710 --> 00:18:26.239
And then the equal weighting of

603
00:18:26.240 --> 00:18:28.099
votes and the way the courts

604
00:18:28.100 --> 00:18:30.139
are going to measure the burden and

605
00:18:30.140 --> 00:18:31.519
how much power Congress is going to

606
00:18:31.520 --> 00:18:33.199
have to enforce voting rights.

607
00:18:33.200 --> 00:18:34.909
That's the basic amendment.

608
00:18:34.910 --> 00:18:36.769
And I propose this as

609
00:18:36.770 --> 00:18:38.869
a kind of minimum to ask, is

610
00:18:38.870 --> 00:18:41.089
it possible that there could be

611
00:18:41.090 --> 00:18:43.069
bipartisan compromise

612
00:18:43.070 --> 00:18:45.019
to actually have support

613
00:18:45.020 --> 00:18:46.009
for this amendment?

614
00:18:46.010 --> 00:18:47.899
And I give some reasons why I think

615
00:18:47.900 --> 00:18:49.819
that's possible. I know in this

616
00:18:49.820 --> 00:18:51.769
moment it seems impossible.

617
00:18:51.770 --> 00:18:53.809
But let me let me make the pitch

618
00:18:53.810 --> 00:18:55.039
very briefly, and then I'll turn to

619
00:18:55.040 --> 00:18:56.779
these, these additions.

620
00:18:56.780 --> 00:18:58.699
The pitch. Is this a right to

621
00:18:58.700 --> 00:19:00.439
vote amendment would do three

622
00:19:00.440 --> 00:19:02.509
things. One thing it would do is

623
00:19:02.510 --> 00:19:04.249
it would ensure political equality.

624
00:19:04.250 --> 00:19:05.269
That's the most basic thing.

625
00:19:05.270 --> 00:19:06.709
It says if you're if you're, you

626
00:19:06.710 --> 00:19:08.329
know, fit into these categories, you

627
00:19:08.330 --> 00:19:10.009
are going to be allowed to vote and

628
00:19:10.010 --> 00:19:11.719
you can't be discriminated against

629
00:19:11.720 --> 00:19:13.519
whether you're a college student or

630
00:19:13.520 --> 00:19:15.889
you are a, Native American

631
00:19:15.890 --> 00:19:17.569
reservation. Or to use an earlier

632
00:19:17.570 --> 00:19:19.699
example that I given the book

633
00:19:19.700 --> 00:19:21.619
in, in the 1960s,

634
00:19:21.620 --> 00:19:23.119
Texas wouldn't let people in the

635
00:19:23.120 --> 00:19:25.069
military vote in their

636
00:19:25.070 --> 00:19:27.379
elections unless they were already

637
00:19:27.380 --> 00:19:29.299
residents before they joined

638
00:19:29.300 --> 00:19:30.829
the military.

639
00:19:30.830 --> 00:19:32.629
This man named Sergeant Carrington

640
00:19:32.630 --> 00:19:33.799
had to go all the way to the Supreme

641
00:19:33.800 --> 00:19:35.179
Court to fight to be able to get it.

642
00:19:35.180 --> 00:19:36.799
So politically, quality's number

643
00:19:36.800 --> 00:19:38.719
one. But the other the second

644
00:19:38.720 --> 00:19:40.489
thing it would do is it would stop a

645
00:19:40.490 --> 00:19:42.559
lot of the fighting over our

646
00:19:42.560 --> 00:19:43.639
election rules.

647
00:19:43.640 --> 00:19:45.769
And so I would couple

648
00:19:45.770 --> 00:19:47.659
mandatory national

649
00:19:47.660 --> 00:19:48.979
voter registration.

650
00:19:48.980 --> 00:19:49.789
The government has to go out and

651
00:19:49.790 --> 00:19:51.439
register everybody with a kind of

652
00:19:51.440 --> 00:19:52.819
national ID program.

653
00:19:52.820 --> 00:19:54.109
And I explain how it's different

654
00:19:54.110 --> 00:19:55.339
than some of the restrictive state

655
00:19:55.340 --> 00:19:56.359
ID programs.

656
00:19:56.360 --> 00:19:57.769
But this is something that if you

657
00:19:57.770 --> 00:19:59.479
are serious and you're worried about

658
00:19:59.480 --> 00:20:01.069
election integrity, this would get

659
00:20:01.070 --> 00:20:02.419
rid of a lot of the fights over

660
00:20:02.420 --> 00:20:04.459
elections by not nationalizing

661
00:20:04.460 --> 00:20:05.899
our system. It would still be state

662
00:20:05.900 --> 00:20:07.909
by state, but by taking

663
00:20:07.910 --> 00:20:09.349
away a lot of the things that people

664
00:20:09.350 --> 00:20:10.309
fight over.

665
00:20:10.310 --> 00:20:11.569
And the third thing that the

666
00:20:11.570 --> 00:20:13.549
amendment would do is it would

667
00:20:13.550 --> 00:20:15.709
make it harder to steal elections.

668
00:20:15.710 --> 00:20:18.319
Unfortunately, the story of the 2020

669
00:20:18.320 --> 00:20:20.449
election was a story of attempted

670
00:20:20.450 --> 00:20:21.859
election subversion.

671
00:20:21.860 --> 00:20:23.209
And while some things have been done

672
00:20:23.210 --> 00:20:24.829
to make it better and we can talk

673
00:20:24.830 --> 00:20:26.899
about that, there is still some

674
00:20:26.900 --> 00:20:28.099
risk to our elections.

675
00:20:28.100 --> 00:20:29.989
I mentioned that Arizona bill that's

676
00:20:29.990 --> 00:20:32.179
out there, we are still in danger.

677
00:20:32.180 --> 00:20:33.949
And so I think there is something

678
00:20:33.950 --> 00:20:35.989
for everyone. Maybe

679
00:20:35.990 --> 00:20:37.909
again, not now, maybe in five years,

680
00:20:37.910 --> 00:20:39.919
maybe as the Republican Party and

681
00:20:39.920 --> 00:20:41.899
the Democratic Party change in

682
00:20:41.900 --> 00:20:43.459
terms of who is getting their

683
00:20:43.460 --> 00:20:45.499
support. So as the

684
00:20:45.500 --> 00:20:47.389
Republican Party becomes more

685
00:20:47.390 --> 00:20:49.249
attractive to poorer working class

686
00:20:49.250 --> 00:20:50.899
voters, those are voters who are

687
00:20:50.900 --> 00:20:53.149
more likely to be disenfranchized.

688
00:20:53.150 --> 00:20:54.559
And so maybe there would be a

689
00:20:54.560 --> 00:20:56.269
benefit in expanding the right to

690
00:20:56.270 --> 00:20:57.139
vote there.

691
00:20:57.140 --> 00:20:58.969
So I have the basic proposal, and

692
00:20:58.970 --> 00:21:00.469
then I have my wish list.

693
00:21:00.470 --> 00:21:02.389
And on the wish list, the things

694
00:21:02.390 --> 00:21:03.799
that would be deal breakers for at

695
00:21:03.800 --> 00:21:05.569
least some on the right are

696
00:21:05.570 --> 00:21:07.279
reforming the Electoral College.

697
00:21:07.280 --> 00:21:08.659
I don't spend much time on that

698
00:21:08.660 --> 00:21:09.919
because there have been very many

699
00:21:09.920 --> 00:21:11.540
good books just on that topic.

700
00:21:13.520 --> 00:21:15.109
Changing the Senate, which I agree

701
00:21:15.110 --> 00:21:16.129
with you, would require two

702
00:21:16.130 --> 00:21:18.859
amendments first and amendment

703
00:21:18.860 --> 00:21:19.879
getting rid of that part of the

704
00:21:19.880 --> 00:21:21.079
Constitution that says you can't

705
00:21:21.080 --> 00:21:22.669
amend the Constitution to get rid of

706
00:21:22.670 --> 00:21:24.259
the Senate. The Senate and the

707
00:21:24.260 --> 00:21:26.299
Electoral College are the only major

708
00:21:26.300 --> 00:21:28.069
institutions in American society

709
00:21:28.070 --> 00:21:29.599
that don't use equal voting.

710
00:21:29.600 --> 00:21:31.459
The one person, one vote rule

711
00:21:31.460 --> 00:21:33.289
and then the re enfranchisement of

712
00:21:33.290 --> 00:21:35.179
felons, which I strongly support

713
00:21:35.180 --> 00:21:36.529
in the past.

714
00:21:36.530 --> 00:21:38.389
I believe that we should let the

715
00:21:38.390 --> 00:21:40.129
political process work it out.

716
00:21:40.130 --> 00:21:41.209
But I tell the story of what

717
00:21:41.210 --> 00:21:42.979
happened in Florida after Florida

718
00:21:42.980 --> 00:21:44.539
voters, both Republicans and

719
00:21:44.540 --> 00:21:46.609
Democrats, overwhelmingly

720
00:21:46.610 --> 00:21:49.249
supported a state

721
00:21:49.250 --> 00:21:51.169
initiative to re enfranchise

722
00:21:51.170 --> 00:21:52.819
those who had completed their,

723
00:21:52.820 --> 00:21:53.869
felony sentences.

724
00:21:53.870 --> 00:21:55.489
After that happened, the state

725
00:21:55.490 --> 00:21:57.469
legislature and the governor found

726
00:21:57.470 --> 00:21:59.659
ways to make that not

727
00:21:59.660 --> 00:22:01.579
a reality and in fact, started

728
00:22:01.580 --> 00:22:03.440
threatening people, who were,

729
00:22:04.580 --> 00:22:06.739
who were, formerly

730
00:22:06.740 --> 00:22:08.449
had a felony conviction but had not

731
00:22:08.450 --> 00:22:10.069
necessarily paid all of their fines

732
00:22:10.070 --> 00:22:11.809
and fees, and they were threatened

733
00:22:11.810 --> 00:22:12.810
with jail time.

734
00:22:13.760 --> 00:22:15.649
And so, and then the last

735
00:22:15.650 --> 00:22:17.479
area and this is an area

736
00:22:17.480 --> 00:22:19.009
that I knew very little about before

737
00:22:19.010 --> 00:22:20.659
I started researching this book, are

738
00:22:20.660 --> 00:22:22.579
the rights of Americans who live

739
00:22:22.580 --> 00:22:24.619
in territories not just

740
00:22:24.620 --> 00:22:26.449
Washington, DC, but Puerto

741
00:22:26.450 --> 00:22:27.889
Rico, Guam, the U.S.

742
00:22:27.890 --> 00:22:29.959
Virgin Islands, American

743
00:22:29.960 --> 00:22:30.889
Samoa.

744
00:22:30.890 --> 00:22:32.869
And there is a question about their

745
00:22:32.870 --> 00:22:33.769
self-determination.

746
00:22:33.770 --> 00:22:35.359
But if they want to remain part of

747
00:22:35.360 --> 00:22:37.249
the United States, there is no

748
00:22:37.250 --> 00:22:38.839
reason that we should have a class

749
00:22:38.840 --> 00:22:40.789
of second class citizenships or even

750
00:22:40.790 --> 00:22:42.379
the third class citizenship that we

751
00:22:42.380 --> 00:22:43.609
have in American Samoa.

752
00:22:43.610 --> 00:22:45.529
So I have the things that

753
00:22:45.530 --> 00:22:47.659
that I would include as well

754
00:22:47.660 --> 00:22:49.699
if I were writing it all.

755
00:22:49.700 --> 00:22:51.379
Partizan gerrymandering is a

756
00:22:51.380 --> 00:22:52.639
difficult question.

757
00:22:52.640 --> 00:22:54.409
It's a complex question.

758
00:22:54.410 --> 00:22:56.569
And I just decided

759
00:22:56.570 --> 00:22:58.429
there's only so much to tackle in

760
00:22:58.430 --> 00:22:59.569
in one place.

761
00:22:59.570 --> 00:23:01.399
But that is an area where

762
00:23:01.400 --> 00:23:03.259
obviously, people

763
00:23:03.260 --> 00:23:05.269
have strong feelings about,

764
00:23:05.270 --> 00:23:06.270
how that can destroy.

765
00:23:07.790 --> 00:23:09.619
The the people's right

766
00:23:09.620 --> 00:23:11.479
to vote for for the people's

767
00:23:11.480 --> 00:23:13.129
right to vote for candidates as

768
00:23:13.130 --> 00:23:14.269
opposed to the candidates right to

769
00:23:14.270 --> 00:23:15.769
pick their voters.

770
00:23:15.770 --> 00:23:16.909
I said, want to take a couple of

771
00:23:16.910 --> 00:23:18.109
things. You said. The other thing

772
00:23:18.110 --> 00:23:20.209
you said I wanted to return to was

773
00:23:20.210 --> 00:23:22.189
how the Supreme Court has really

774
00:23:22.190 --> 00:23:24.199
been gutting the Voting Rights Act

775
00:23:24.200 --> 00:23:25.849
and undermining voting.

776
00:23:25.850 --> 00:23:27.349
And I'll take the example that you

777
00:23:27.350 --> 00:23:29.479
mentioned a moment ago when Florida

778
00:23:29.480 --> 00:23:31.519
voters eliminated

779
00:23:31.520 --> 00:23:33.349
the bar on ex-felons

780
00:23:33.350 --> 00:23:35.209
from voting. How the legislature

781
00:23:35.210 --> 00:23:36.769
and the governor that imposed new

782
00:23:36.770 --> 00:23:38.539
restrictions, and the United States

783
00:23:38.540 --> 00:23:39.529
Court of Appeals for the 11th

784
00:23:39.530 --> 00:23:41.569
Circuit upheld with

785
00:23:41.570 --> 00:23:43.399
the governor in the legislature that

786
00:23:43.400 --> 00:23:45.679
continuing to bar ex-felons

787
00:23:45.680 --> 00:23:47.119
from voting.

788
00:23:47.120 --> 00:23:49.009
Ultimately, your amendment is going

789
00:23:49.010 --> 00:23:50.929
to go to the same courts that aren't

790
00:23:50.930 --> 00:23:52.249
succeeding now.

791
00:23:52.250 --> 00:23:53.899
Why believe that changing?

792
00:23:53.900 --> 00:23:55.249
I don't mean to sound cynical, but

793
00:23:55.250 --> 00:23:56.869
it's the courts are the problem.

794
00:23:56.870 --> 00:23:58.039
How is just amending the

795
00:23:58.040 --> 00:23:59.569
Constitution going to change that?

796
00:23:59.570 --> 00:24:01.399
Yes. So a few things.

797
00:24:01.400 --> 00:24:03.319
First, I should say that 11th

798
00:24:03.320 --> 00:24:05.599
amendment, the 11th Circuit opinion

799
00:24:05.600 --> 00:24:07.429
that you're referring to is

800
00:24:07.430 --> 00:24:09.499
incredible and incredibly bad

801
00:24:09.500 --> 00:24:11.479
that the dissent in that

802
00:24:11.480 --> 00:24:13.309
case pointed out that what the

803
00:24:13.310 --> 00:24:15.349
majority said was it's

804
00:24:15.350 --> 00:24:17.209
fine for the state to both

805
00:24:17.210 --> 00:24:18.799
say that you cannot be re

806
00:24:18.800 --> 00:24:20.479
enfranchised under this amendment

807
00:24:20.480 --> 00:24:22.159
unless you've paid all your fines

808
00:24:22.160 --> 00:24:24.229
and fees, and for the state

809
00:24:24.230 --> 00:24:25.849
to admit that they have no

810
00:24:25.850 --> 00:24:27.769
repository and they can't tell

811
00:24:27.770 --> 00:24:29.809
any former, someone

812
00:24:29.810 --> 00:24:31.129
with a former felony conviction

813
00:24:31.130 --> 00:24:32.959
cannot tell them how

814
00:24:32.960 --> 00:24:35.299
many fines are fees, they might o.

815
00:24:35.300 --> 00:24:37.609
So you're basically taking a risk.

816
00:24:37.610 --> 00:24:39.589
To me, this was not about

817
00:24:39.590 --> 00:24:40.849
the voting rights of people who had

818
00:24:40.850 --> 00:24:42.649
felonies. It's about basic due

819
00:24:42.650 --> 00:24:44.119
process.

820
00:24:44.120 --> 00:24:45.120
You know, you're kind of,

821
00:24:46.310 --> 00:24:48.649
at the mercy of the state

822
00:24:48.650 --> 00:24:50.149
because, you know, are you going to

823
00:24:50.150 --> 00:24:52.789
call every place, every,

824
00:24:52.790 --> 00:24:54.889
potential, place where you might

825
00:24:54.890 --> 00:24:56.419
find or fee every court?

826
00:24:56.420 --> 00:24:57.829
Maybe you were in that court 30

827
00:24:57.830 --> 00:24:59.269
years ago. Are they going to have

828
00:24:59.270 --> 00:25:00.259
records?

829
00:25:00.260 --> 00:25:01.729
You know, it's you're not going to

830
00:25:01.730 --> 00:25:03.619
be able to. And so effectively,

831
00:25:03.620 --> 00:25:04.969
they were disenfranchized through

832
00:25:04.970 --> 00:25:06.049
this rule.

833
00:25:06.050 --> 00:25:07.909
So why trust the Supreme Court

834
00:25:07.910 --> 00:25:09.829
in a as I said, in the 235 year

835
00:25:09.830 --> 00:25:11.329
history of the Supreme Court, maybe

836
00:25:11.330 --> 00:25:12.919
it's eight years where the court and

837
00:25:12.920 --> 00:25:14.059
during the Warren Court, when the

838
00:25:14.060 --> 00:25:15.469
court was actually protective of

839
00:25:15.470 --> 00:25:16.339
voting rights.

840
00:25:16.340 --> 00:25:17.749
So my amendment, if you actually

841
00:25:17.750 --> 00:25:19.609
read it, doesn't look like the other

842
00:25:19.610 --> 00:25:21.079
amendments. So if you look at the

843
00:25:21.080 --> 00:25:23.089
15th amendment, it's very short.

844
00:25:23.090 --> 00:25:25.099
It says, you know, that,

845
00:25:25.100 --> 00:25:27.259
prohibition, in discrimination,

846
00:25:27.260 --> 00:25:28.879
in voting on the basis of race and

847
00:25:28.880 --> 00:25:30.139
Congress shall have the power to

848
00:25:30.140 --> 00:25:31.459
enforce this by appropriate

849
00:25:31.460 --> 00:25:33.289
legislation. Very short.

850
00:25:33.290 --> 00:25:35.159
Mine is long and it

851
00:25:35.160 --> 00:25:36.439
has specific directions to the

852
00:25:36.440 --> 00:25:38.389
courts. Now, will the courts

853
00:25:38.390 --> 00:25:39.469
follow them?

854
00:25:39.470 --> 00:25:41.519
If it's Justice Alito who has shown

855
00:25:41.520 --> 00:25:43.339
more hostility to to the Voting

856
00:25:43.340 --> 00:25:45.019
Rights Act than than anyone on the

857
00:25:45.020 --> 00:25:46.549
court? If it's in his hands.

858
00:25:46.550 --> 00:25:47.509
Do I trust him?

859
00:25:47.510 --> 00:25:48.889
Not very much.

860
00:25:48.890 --> 00:25:50.809
But I also empower in

861
00:25:50.810 --> 00:25:52.639
the last part, Congress to do

862
00:25:52.640 --> 00:25:54.619
more. And one of the things I say

863
00:25:54.620 --> 00:25:56.149
is that if we start getting

864
00:25:56.150 --> 00:25:58.069
resistance, if this country has

865
00:25:58.070 --> 00:26:00.319
come together to pass

866
00:26:00.320 --> 00:26:01.939
this amendment, it's going to look

867
00:26:01.940 --> 00:26:02.869
like a little bit of a different

868
00:26:02.870 --> 00:26:04.939
country than it does right now.

869
00:26:04.940 --> 00:26:06.769
And then if the Supreme Court's the

870
00:26:06.770 --> 00:26:08.149
problem, well, then maybe you need

871
00:26:08.150 --> 00:26:09.499
to change the Supreme Court.

872
00:26:09.500 --> 00:26:11.329
And so, you know, it's I'm

873
00:26:11.330 --> 00:26:13.399
trying to think with a slightly

874
00:26:13.400 --> 00:26:15.529
longer time horizon than

875
00:26:15.530 --> 00:26:17.359
compared to, for example,

876
00:26:17.360 --> 00:26:19.609
the legislation that passed

877
00:26:19.610 --> 00:26:21.109
in the House and passed in the

878
00:26:21.110 --> 00:26:22.409
Senate, or would have passed the

879
00:26:22.410 --> 00:26:23.719
Senate, except for the filibuster,

880
00:26:23.720 --> 00:26:25.729
the John Lewis Voting Rights,

881
00:26:25.730 --> 00:26:27.919
Advancement Act, which I support,

882
00:26:27.920 --> 00:26:29.149
which would have fixed some of the

883
00:26:29.150 --> 00:26:31.159
problems that the Supreme Court did.

884
00:26:31.160 --> 00:26:33.019
But I'm looking broader and

885
00:26:33.020 --> 00:26:34.020
longer term.

886
00:26:35.330 --> 00:26:36.829
I'd like to talk more about fixing

887
00:26:36.830 --> 00:26:38.389
the Supreme Court, but I think that

888
00:26:38.390 --> 00:26:39.709
would be a topic for a different

889
00:26:39.710 --> 00:26:40.769
night.

890
00:26:40.770 --> 00:26:42.529
There's lots to discuss there.

891
00:26:42.530 --> 00:26:44.629
One of the things that underlies

892
00:26:44.630 --> 00:26:45.679
what we're discussing now about the

893
00:26:45.680 --> 00:26:47.539
courts is the increase in

894
00:26:47.540 --> 00:26:49.159
voting rights litigation and voting

895
00:26:49.160 --> 00:26:50.839
litigation. You have a chart in the

896
00:26:50.840 --> 00:26:52.879
book that's quite stunning,

897
00:26:52.880 --> 00:26:55.549
but the amount of voting litigation

898
00:26:55.550 --> 00:26:57.439
from an earlier period compared to

899
00:26:57.440 --> 00:26:58.699
the more recent period.

900
00:26:58.700 --> 00:27:00.409
Why the tremendous increase in

901
00:27:00.410 --> 00:27:01.969
litigation over voting and more

902
00:27:01.970 --> 00:27:03.289
recent years?

903
00:27:03.290 --> 00:27:04.939
Right. So it's a chart that shows

904
00:27:04.940 --> 00:27:07.279
how things were before the 2000

905
00:27:07.280 --> 00:27:08.929
election and after the 2000

906
00:27:08.930 --> 00:27:10.579
election, and it's nearly a tripling

907
00:27:10.580 --> 00:27:12.379
of the amount of litigation.

908
00:27:12.380 --> 00:27:13.789
That's a lot. And I'm just doing a

909
00:27:13.790 --> 00:27:15.649
sample. These are not all the cases.

910
00:27:15.650 --> 00:27:17.209
This is a sample of cases.

911
00:27:17.210 --> 00:27:19.249
Why is it I think that

912
00:27:19.250 --> 00:27:21.379
we, what we saw as a country

913
00:27:21.380 --> 00:27:24.289
is that in the 2000 election,

914
00:27:24.290 --> 00:27:25.789
political operatives learned that in

915
00:27:25.790 --> 00:27:27.859
very close election,

916
00:27:27.860 --> 00:27:29.299
very close elections, the rules of

917
00:27:29.300 --> 00:27:30.739
the game can matter.

918
00:27:30.740 --> 00:27:32.569
And so whether you allow

919
00:27:32.570 --> 00:27:34.489
people to vote by mail or

920
00:27:34.490 --> 00:27:36.319
you allow the, someone to

921
00:27:36.320 --> 00:27:38.209
come in if they forgot to sign

922
00:27:38.210 --> 00:27:40.069
the ballot and cure their ballot,

923
00:27:40.070 --> 00:27:42.019
whether you allow people

924
00:27:42.020 --> 00:27:44.239
to register on the same day,

925
00:27:44.240 --> 00:27:45.469
all of these things,

926
00:27:46.550 --> 00:27:47.929
have very small effects.

927
00:27:47.930 --> 00:27:49.579
They have effects on the margin.

928
00:27:49.580 --> 00:27:50.580
And,

929
00:27:51.680 --> 00:27:53.899
in our hyper polarized society,

930
00:27:53.900 --> 00:27:55.009
which we're living in now, and our

931
00:27:55.010 --> 00:27:56.299
society has only gotten more

932
00:27:56.300 --> 00:27:58.669
politically polarized since 2000.

933
00:27:58.670 --> 00:28:00.319
There's every reason to seek every

934
00:28:00.320 --> 00:28:01.369
advantage.

935
00:28:01.370 --> 00:28:03.349
And beyond that, beyond

936
00:28:03.350 --> 00:28:05.299
the, the seeking

937
00:28:05.300 --> 00:28:06.109
of advantage.

938
00:28:06.110 --> 00:28:07.110
This is a kind of.

939
00:28:07.970 --> 00:28:08.970
More of a,

940
00:28:09.890 --> 00:28:11.959
a basic thing, which is that lawyers

941
00:28:11.960 --> 00:28:13.309
like to litigate.

942
00:28:13.310 --> 00:28:15.439
And, some of the lawyers

943
00:28:15.440 --> 00:28:16.939
who litigate, I won't name their

944
00:28:16.940 --> 00:28:18.259
names up here.

945
00:28:18.260 --> 00:28:19.819
Some of these names you would know

946
00:28:19.820 --> 00:28:21.769
have gone and had the law

947
00:28:21.770 --> 00:28:23.719
changed, so that you can now

948
00:28:23.720 --> 00:28:26.209
give much higher

949
00:28:26.210 --> 00:28:28.249
campaign contributions to political

950
00:28:28.250 --> 00:28:30.559
parties to pay for litigation.

951
00:28:30.560 --> 00:28:32.539
So, you know, is it supply driven

952
00:28:32.540 --> 00:28:33.379
or demand driven?

953
00:28:33.380 --> 00:28:34.789
Some of it is about the elections

954
00:28:34.790 --> 00:28:36.709
and some of it is also I think

955
00:28:36.710 --> 00:28:38.779
part it's part, you know, a

956
00:28:38.780 --> 00:28:40.549
PR thing, right?

957
00:28:40.550 --> 00:28:41.959
We hear about the voting laws.

958
00:28:41.960 --> 00:28:43.519
We hear about voter fraud and voter

959
00:28:43.520 --> 00:28:44.419
suppression. We hear about it all

960
00:28:44.420 --> 00:28:45.949
the time. Part of this is about

961
00:28:45.950 --> 00:28:46.849
fundraising.

962
00:28:46.850 --> 00:28:48.349
Part of this is about making the

963
00:28:48.350 --> 00:28:50.239
election a political issue.

964
00:28:50.240 --> 00:28:52.129
And so this every incentive to

965
00:28:52.130 --> 00:28:53.130
do to do that.

966
00:28:54.630 --> 00:28:56.819
Since the 2020 election,

967
00:28:56.820 --> 00:28:59.039
a large number of states,

968
00:28:59.040 --> 00:29:00.389
especially those we've got as red

969
00:29:00.390 --> 00:29:01.919
states, have imposed new

970
00:29:01.920 --> 00:29:03.629
restrictions on voting.

971
00:29:03.630 --> 00:29:05.789
How would your proposed amendment

972
00:29:05.790 --> 00:29:07.199
do what the kinds of restrictions

973
00:29:07.200 --> 00:29:08.369
have been adopted recently?

974
00:29:09.420 --> 00:29:11.309
So it depends on which restrictions

975
00:29:11.310 --> 00:29:12.310
you're talking about.

976
00:29:13.770 --> 00:29:15.929
Let's take Georgia, which got

977
00:29:15.930 --> 00:29:17.909
I don't know if any of you saw,

978
00:29:17.910 --> 00:29:20.219
the Curb Your Enthusiasm episode

979
00:29:20.220 --> 00:29:21.749
from the last week where Larry David

980
00:29:21.750 --> 00:29:23.729
is arrested for giving,

981
00:29:23.730 --> 00:29:25.919
giving a voter online a

982
00:29:25.920 --> 00:29:27.089
a bottle of water.

983
00:29:29.610 --> 00:29:31.409
That law has gotten a lot of

984
00:29:31.410 --> 00:29:33.179
attention for the bottle of water

985
00:29:33.180 --> 00:29:34.769
thing. The idea was what was

986
00:29:34.770 --> 00:29:37.049
happening is pizza to the polls.

987
00:29:37.050 --> 00:29:38.459
They were giving people pizza when

988
00:29:38.460 --> 00:29:39.899
they were waiting in long lines to

989
00:29:39.900 --> 00:29:41.819
vote. And this was seen as akin

990
00:29:41.820 --> 00:29:44.129
to bribery, which,

991
00:29:44.130 --> 00:29:45.779
was a little extreme.

992
00:29:45.780 --> 00:29:47.399
And it was a little odd because

993
00:29:47.400 --> 00:29:48.839
Herschel Walker, you may remember,

994
00:29:48.840 --> 00:29:50.399
was a Republican who was running for

995
00:29:50.400 --> 00:29:52.589
the Senate seat, was like doing,

996
00:29:53.940 --> 00:29:55.109
lottery giveaways.

997
00:29:55.110 --> 00:29:57.049
And that the way it was written

998
00:29:57.050 --> 00:29:58.199
for people who came to his rallies

999
00:29:58.200 --> 00:29:59.189
didn't violate the law.

1000
00:29:59.190 --> 00:30:00.719
But but if you gave someone water

1001
00:30:00.720 --> 00:30:01.859
within a certain number of feet of

1002
00:30:01.860 --> 00:30:02.999
the polling place, that wasn't a

1003
00:30:03.000 --> 00:30:04.649
lot, got a lot of attention.

1004
00:30:04.650 --> 00:30:06.059
That's not really where the action

1005
00:30:06.060 --> 00:30:08.129
was. I was much more concerned

1006
00:30:08.130 --> 00:30:10.049
about the part of the law

1007
00:30:10.050 --> 00:30:12.149
that said that the state could take

1008
00:30:12.150 --> 00:30:14.369
over local election

1009
00:30:14.370 --> 00:30:15.419
offices.

1010
00:30:15.420 --> 00:30:17.849
Now in Georgia, it turns out that

1011
00:30:17.850 --> 00:30:19.529
they've actually been pretty good in

1012
00:30:19.530 --> 00:30:21.479
terms of there was a worry that

1013
00:30:21.480 --> 00:30:22.709
Fulton County, which is where

1014
00:30:22.710 --> 00:30:24.509
Atlanta is, that this was going to

1015
00:30:24.510 --> 00:30:26.069
be a place where there was going to

1016
00:30:26.070 --> 00:30:27.089
be a takeover.

1017
00:30:27.090 --> 00:30:29.129
But they actually,

1018
00:30:29.130 --> 00:30:30.479
Fulton County had some problems in

1019
00:30:30.480 --> 00:30:31.409
how they ran their election.

1020
00:30:31.410 --> 00:30:32.729
They made things better.

1021
00:30:32.730 --> 00:30:34.529
But let me give you an example from

1022
00:30:34.530 --> 00:30:35.399
Texas.

1023
00:30:35.400 --> 00:30:37.439
Texas passed a law that said only

1024
00:30:37.440 --> 00:30:39.449
the county where Houston is is

1025
00:30:39.450 --> 00:30:40.439
no longer going to be able to

1026
00:30:40.440 --> 00:30:41.519
administer its own election.

1027
00:30:41.520 --> 00:30:42.449
They took away the election

1028
00:30:42.450 --> 00:30:44.099
administrator, and they gave the job

1029
00:30:44.100 --> 00:30:44.939
to someone else who was a

1030
00:30:44.940 --> 00:30:46.829
Republican, because during

1031
00:30:46.830 --> 00:30:49.199
the 2020 election, during Covid,

1032
00:30:49.200 --> 00:30:50.789
in Houston, if you wanted to vote,

1033
00:30:50.790 --> 00:30:52.979
you could have 24 hour drive

1034
00:30:52.980 --> 00:30:54.179
through voting. It was a great

1035
00:30:54.180 --> 00:30:55.710
innovation during,

1036
00:30:57.120 --> 00:30:58.409
Covid so people wouldn't have to get

1037
00:30:58.410 --> 00:30:59.369
out of their cars.

1038
00:30:59.370 --> 00:31:00.899
But it was seen as, you know, why is

1039
00:31:00.900 --> 00:31:02.040
it only in this place?

1040
00:31:03.330 --> 00:31:05.729
The amendment would essentially

1041
00:31:05.730 --> 00:31:07.619
require states, if they're going

1042
00:31:07.620 --> 00:31:09.449
to burden voters, to come

1043
00:31:09.450 --> 00:31:11.699
up with a good reason.

1044
00:31:11.700 --> 00:31:13.469
Now, there's already a kind of

1045
00:31:13.470 --> 00:31:15.299
balancing test that courts use,

1046
00:31:15.300 --> 00:31:16.559
but it's a balancing test that

1047
00:31:16.560 --> 00:31:18.479
almost always favors the state.

1048
00:31:18.480 --> 00:31:20.429
Justice Alito, for example, has said

1049
00:31:20.430 --> 00:31:21.749
that you always have to presume that

1050
00:31:21.750 --> 00:31:23.819
the state is acting in good faith

1051
00:31:23.820 --> 00:31:25.890
when it, I would reverse that.

1052
00:31:27.120 --> 00:31:28.979
And also, not only what I

1053
00:31:28.980 --> 00:31:30.959
that would say you have to give.

1054
00:31:30.960 --> 00:31:33.059
You can't make voting overly

1055
00:31:33.060 --> 00:31:34.829
burdensome. So, for example, one

1056
00:31:34.830 --> 00:31:36.659
rule of thumb that our commission,

1057
00:31:36.660 --> 00:31:38.039
a bipartisan commission, came up

1058
00:31:38.040 --> 00:31:39.899
with, this was a commission

1059
00:31:39.900 --> 00:31:41.909
formed by President Obama that had,

1060
00:31:41.910 --> 00:31:43.679
Mitt Romney's lawyer and his lawyer

1061
00:31:43.680 --> 00:31:45.209
together and a bunch of experts.

1062
00:31:45.210 --> 00:31:47.009
They said on Election Day, people

1063
00:31:47.010 --> 00:31:48.299
should not have to wait in line more

1064
00:31:48.300 --> 00:31:50.789
than 30 minutes to be able to vote.

1065
00:31:50.790 --> 00:31:52.469
And that's a good benchmark.

1066
00:31:52.470 --> 00:31:54.359
So I don't have that exact thing in

1067
00:31:54.360 --> 00:31:56.189
the Constitution, constitutional

1068
00:31:56.190 --> 00:31:57.569
amendment. But that's the idea, is

1069
00:31:57.570 --> 00:31:59.699
that, voters

1070
00:31:59.700 --> 00:32:02.069
should not be subject to,

1071
00:32:02.070 --> 00:32:03.599
really burdensome things.

1072
00:32:03.600 --> 00:32:05.249
That doesn't mean you necessarily

1073
00:32:05.250 --> 00:32:06.899
have to give everybody an absentee

1074
00:32:06.900 --> 00:32:08.369
ballot. It doesn't mean you have to

1075
00:32:08.370 --> 00:32:09.659
have three weeks rather than two

1076
00:32:09.660 --> 00:32:11.069
weeks of early voting, but you have

1077
00:32:11.070 --> 00:32:12.029
to have meaningful voting

1078
00:32:12.030 --> 00:32:13.559
opportunities for people.

1079
00:32:13.560 --> 00:32:15.419
Could you give some more examples of

1080
00:32:15.420 --> 00:32:17.579
the kind of restrictions that exist

1081
00:32:17.580 --> 00:32:19.559
now that wouldn't be allowed

1082
00:32:19.560 --> 00:32:21.409
under your right to vote?

1083
00:32:21.410 --> 00:32:23.389
Well. So I gave you the example of

1084
00:32:23.390 --> 00:32:24.649
the.

1085
00:32:24.650 --> 00:32:26.569
The residential street address

1086
00:32:26.570 --> 00:32:27.979
served no purpose.

1087
00:32:29.270 --> 00:32:31.309
Take another example from Texas.

1088
00:32:31.310 --> 00:32:33.169
Texas has a voter identification

1089
00:32:33.170 --> 00:32:34.609
law. I'm not opposed to voter

1090
00:32:34.610 --> 00:32:35.839
identification laws, if they're done

1091
00:32:35.840 --> 00:32:37.729
fairly. But in Texas, if

1092
00:32:37.730 --> 00:32:39.739
you have a concealed weapons permit,

1093
00:32:39.740 --> 00:32:41.179
that's a valid ID.

1094
00:32:41.180 --> 00:32:43.279
But if you have a student,

1095
00:32:43.280 --> 00:32:44.689
college student identification

1096
00:32:44.690 --> 00:32:46.699
that's not allowed as an ID, that

1097
00:32:46.700 --> 00:32:48.259
would not be allowed.

1098
00:32:48.260 --> 00:32:49.489
So that's another example.

1099
00:32:50.600 --> 00:32:52.939
You know, in, in states that

1100
00:32:52.940 --> 00:32:54.949
don't allow a voter to

1101
00:32:54.950 --> 00:32:57.259
cure their, their ballot,

1102
00:32:57.260 --> 00:32:58.189
I think that would be

1103
00:32:58.190 --> 00:32:59.149
unconstitutional.

1104
00:32:59.150 --> 00:33:01.219
So, you know, when we vote

1105
00:33:01.220 --> 00:33:02.809
and this is true for California as

1106
00:33:02.810 --> 00:33:05.269
well, if you vote by mail,

1107
00:33:05.270 --> 00:33:06.559
you're much more likely to be

1108
00:33:06.560 --> 00:33:08.089
inadvertently disenfranchized than

1109
00:33:08.090 --> 00:33:09.709
if you vote in the polling place.

1110
00:33:09.710 --> 00:33:10.759
And the reason for that is when

1111
00:33:10.760 --> 00:33:11.719
you're in the polling place, if you

1112
00:33:11.720 --> 00:33:13.279
make a mistake, the machine's there,

1113
00:33:13.280 --> 00:33:14.089
there's a worker there. They're

1114
00:33:14.090 --> 00:33:15.199
going to tell you you did something

1115
00:33:15.200 --> 00:33:16.849
wrong, but you might fill it out.

1116
00:33:16.850 --> 00:33:18.559
You might forget to sign it.

1117
00:33:18.560 --> 00:33:20.599
You might not, fill out the bubble,

1118
00:33:20.600 --> 00:33:21.799
right?

1119
00:33:21.800 --> 00:33:23.179
In some states, you need to have a

1120
00:33:23.180 --> 00:33:24.019
witness signature.

1121
00:33:24.020 --> 00:33:25.609
And sometimes people mess up.

1122
00:33:25.610 --> 00:33:27.769
And in some states, if you if,

1123
00:33:27.770 --> 00:33:29.629
you make a mistake, they'll call

1124
00:33:29.630 --> 00:33:31.369
you and they'll say, come on down

1125
00:33:31.370 --> 00:33:33.049
and you can cure your ballot.

1126
00:33:33.050 --> 00:33:34.519
Every voter should have the right to

1127
00:33:34.520 --> 00:33:35.569
be able to do that.

1128
00:33:35.570 --> 00:33:37.519
It would it would violate this

1129
00:33:37.520 --> 00:33:39.859
provision to not give people

1130
00:33:39.860 --> 00:33:41.000
the ability to do that.

1131
00:33:42.410 --> 00:33:44.359
Let's take another example from my

1132
00:33:44.360 --> 00:33:45.590
book in,

1133
00:33:46.670 --> 00:33:48.169
back in Texas.

1134
00:33:48.170 --> 00:33:49.279
There is a,

1135
00:33:50.390 --> 00:33:51.890
historically black college called,

1136
00:33:53.450 --> 00:33:56.119
Prairie View A&M University.

1137
00:33:56.120 --> 00:33:58.309
And for years the,

1138
00:33:58.310 --> 00:33:59.959
it's in Waller County, Texas.

1139
00:33:59.960 --> 00:34:01.489
The registrars there have made it

1140
00:34:01.490 --> 00:34:03.319
hard for college students to vote.

1141
00:34:03.320 --> 00:34:04.549
At one point, they said, if you're a

1142
00:34:04.550 --> 00:34:06.619
college student, you can't register

1143
00:34:06.620 --> 00:34:08.419
to vote here unless your parents

1144
00:34:08.420 --> 00:34:10.158
live in the same county or you're

1145
00:34:10.159 --> 00:34:11.749
married and your spouse works in the

1146
00:34:11.750 --> 00:34:13.399
county, and they had to go all the

1147
00:34:13.400 --> 00:34:14.839
way to the Supreme Court in a case

1148
00:34:14.840 --> 00:34:16.759
called CiMB, versus United

1149
00:34:16.760 --> 00:34:18.349
States in order to get that reverse.

1150
00:34:18.350 --> 00:34:20.359
And then for years, there still

1151
00:34:20.360 --> 00:34:22.309
were attempts to disenfranchize to

1152
00:34:22.310 --> 00:34:24.049
the point that there was litigation

1153
00:34:24.050 --> 00:34:25.158
that I write about in the book that

1154
00:34:25.159 --> 00:34:27.468
took place in 2020, where

1155
00:34:27.469 --> 00:34:29.479
one of the plaintiffs, father and

1156
00:34:29.480 --> 00:34:31.279
grandfather, were involved in

1157
00:34:31.280 --> 00:34:32.928
litigation to try and get, when they

1158
00:34:32.929 --> 00:34:34.549
were college students, to get their

1159
00:34:34.550 --> 00:34:35.779
right to vote.

1160
00:34:35.780 --> 00:34:37.340
These things are just unacceptable.

1161
00:34:38.420 --> 00:34:40.459
One of the things that you propose

1162
00:34:40.460 --> 00:34:42.198
is the obligation to register

1163
00:34:42.199 --> 00:34:43.099
voters.

1164
00:34:43.100 --> 00:34:45.138
This made up, in essence, universal

1165
00:34:45.139 --> 00:34:47.209
voter registration.

1166
00:34:47.210 --> 00:34:49.189
Explain what difference you think

1167
00:34:49.190 --> 00:34:50.178
that would make with regard to a

1168
00:34:50.179 --> 00:34:51.928
political system.

1169
00:34:51.929 --> 00:34:53.999
So if you ask me,

1170
00:34:54.000 --> 00:34:56.218
you know, why don't people vote?

1171
00:34:56.219 --> 00:34:57.419
Some people don't vote because

1172
00:34:57.420 --> 00:34:58.559
they're not interested or they don't

1173
00:34:58.560 --> 00:34:59.489
feel that they know enough.

1174
00:34:59.490 --> 00:35:01.319
But the number one predictor of

1175
00:35:01.320 --> 00:35:03.029
whether or not an eligible voter is

1176
00:35:03.030 --> 00:35:04.619
not going to vote is if they're

1177
00:35:04.620 --> 00:35:06.899
registered, because registration

1178
00:35:06.900 --> 00:35:08.009
can be a barrier.

1179
00:35:08.010 --> 00:35:10.439
And in some places, registration

1180
00:35:10.440 --> 00:35:12.089
can be a serious barrier.

1181
00:35:12.090 --> 00:35:14.069
In my book, Election

1182
00:35:14.070 --> 00:35:16.139
Meltdown, I tell the story of

1183
00:35:16.140 --> 00:35:17.429
Kansas.

1184
00:35:17.430 --> 00:35:18.879
There's a person named Kris Kobach.

1185
00:35:18.880 --> 00:35:20.429
He's now. He was the secretary of

1186
00:35:20.430 --> 00:35:22.379
state. He's now the attorney

1187
00:35:22.380 --> 00:35:23.789
general of Kansas.

1188
00:35:23.790 --> 00:35:26.039
He got through a rule that said

1189
00:35:26.040 --> 00:35:28.529
that you cannot register to vote

1190
00:35:28.530 --> 00:35:30.929
unless you produce documentary

1191
00:35:30.930 --> 00:35:32.999
proof of your citizenship, that

1192
00:35:33.000 --> 00:35:35.339
is your original birth certificate

1193
00:35:35.340 --> 00:35:36.929
or your naturalization certificate.

1194
00:35:36.930 --> 00:35:38.309
So you're coming out of Costco.

1195
00:35:38.310 --> 00:35:39.899
You want to register to vote.

1196
00:35:39.900 --> 00:35:41.009
Sorry, you don't have your birth

1197
00:35:41.010 --> 00:35:41.969
certificate. You can't.

1198
00:35:41.970 --> 00:35:44.009
Right. So that that's

1199
00:35:44.010 --> 00:35:44.849
an extreme example.

1200
00:35:44.850 --> 00:35:47.009
And it took a lawsuit by the ACLU

1201
00:35:47.010 --> 00:35:48.869
that cost millions of dollars

1202
00:35:48.870 --> 00:35:50.849
to get that law thrown out when

1203
00:35:50.850 --> 00:35:52.739
by the time it was put on hold,

1204
00:35:52.740 --> 00:35:54.809
30,000 voters in Kansas

1205
00:35:54.810 --> 00:35:56.459
had had their registrations put on

1206
00:35:56.460 --> 00:35:57.299
hold.

1207
00:35:57.300 --> 00:35:58.919
If we could proactively register

1208
00:35:58.920 --> 00:36:01.079
people, it would eliminate

1209
00:36:01.080 --> 00:36:02.849
the biggest barrier to voting.

1210
00:36:02.850 --> 00:36:04.589
Who doesn't vote because they're not

1211
00:36:04.590 --> 00:36:05.429
registered?

1212
00:36:05.430 --> 00:36:07.559
Younger people, poor people

1213
00:36:07.560 --> 00:36:09.059
and people who move.

1214
00:36:09.060 --> 00:36:11.009
And so how would it change

1215
00:36:11.010 --> 00:36:11.939
our political system?

1216
00:36:11.940 --> 00:36:12.959
I think it would change it for the

1217
00:36:12.960 --> 00:36:14.579
better. You know, one of the things

1218
00:36:14.580 --> 00:36:16.889
that Texas said in that Carrington

1219
00:36:16.890 --> 00:36:17.969
case, the case where they were

1220
00:36:17.970 --> 00:36:19.889
trying to defend why they were

1221
00:36:19.890 --> 00:36:22.349
disenfranchizing military voters,

1222
00:36:22.350 --> 00:36:24.239
they said if we let these

1223
00:36:24.240 --> 00:36:26.159
military voters vote, it might

1224
00:36:26.160 --> 00:36:27.750
change the outcome of elections.

1225
00:36:28.890 --> 00:36:30.779
And the Supreme Court's response

1226
00:36:30.780 --> 00:36:32.069
in today's language was, yeah,

1227
00:36:32.070 --> 00:36:33.779
that's a feature, not a bug of

1228
00:36:33.780 --> 00:36:35.549
democracy. That is, if we let people

1229
00:36:35.550 --> 00:36:37.709
vote, it might reflect outcomes.

1230
00:36:37.710 --> 00:36:39.809
Now, there's a big debate about

1231
00:36:39.810 --> 00:36:42.119
whether making registration

1232
00:36:42.120 --> 00:36:44.159
easier and increasing turnout

1233
00:36:44.160 --> 00:36:46.229
would necessarily help Democrats

1234
00:36:46.230 --> 00:36:47.729
over Republicans.

1235
00:36:47.730 --> 00:36:49.439
There's certainly a belief among

1236
00:36:49.440 --> 00:36:50.819
both Democrats or Republicans that

1237
00:36:50.820 --> 00:36:51.599
it would.

1238
00:36:51.600 --> 00:36:52.889
I think the evidence and I go

1239
00:36:52.890 --> 00:36:54.299
through the evidence in the book is

1240
00:36:54.300 --> 00:36:56.159
is not it's not clear at all

1241
00:36:56.160 --> 00:36:57.689
on that point. Certainly not at the

1242
00:36:57.690 --> 00:36:59.879
presidential level after

1243
00:36:59.880 --> 00:37:01.049
all.

1244
00:37:01.050 --> 00:37:03.209
This is kind of a flip,

1245
00:37:03.210 --> 00:37:04.289
of where things used to be.

1246
00:37:04.290 --> 00:37:06.239
I don't know if, you saw some

1247
00:37:06.240 --> 00:37:08.039
of the reporting of Nate Cohn in The

1248
00:37:08.040 --> 00:37:09.479
New York Times this week, but

1249
00:37:09.480 --> 00:37:11.399
Democrats now do better in midterms

1250
00:37:11.400 --> 00:37:12.599
than Republicans used to be the

1251
00:37:12.600 --> 00:37:14.219
other way around.

1252
00:37:14.220 --> 00:37:16.049
Why are Republicans doing

1253
00:37:16.050 --> 00:37:17.099
better?

1254
00:37:17.100 --> 00:37:19.109
Than in the, in the presidential

1255
00:37:19.110 --> 00:37:20.429
election than in the midterm?

1256
00:37:20.430 --> 00:37:21.629
Because there are a lot of.

1257
00:37:23.600 --> 00:37:24.600
Poor,

1258
00:37:25.580 --> 00:37:27.559
low educated voters who will come

1259
00:37:27.560 --> 00:37:29.119
out and vote for Trump but won't

1260
00:37:29.120 --> 00:37:30.469
vote in the midterms.

1261
00:37:30.470 --> 00:37:32.329
Right. So, you know, we don't

1262
00:37:32.330 --> 00:37:34.369
know that high turnout is going to

1263
00:37:34.370 --> 00:37:36.259
help one side or the other, but it

1264
00:37:36.260 --> 00:37:37.939
does help the democratic process

1265
00:37:37.940 --> 00:37:39.499
when all eligible people are allowed

1266
00:37:39.500 --> 00:37:40.339
to vote.

1267
00:37:40.340 --> 00:37:41.419
And of course, when you have

1268
00:37:41.420 --> 00:37:42.739
presidential elections, we go back

1269
00:37:42.740 --> 00:37:44.209
to the Electoral College.

1270
00:37:44.210 --> 00:37:46.669
I mean, Biden beat Trump by

1271
00:37:46.670 --> 00:37:48.529
7 million votes, but I think

1272
00:37:48.530 --> 00:37:50.209
it's a 40,000 votes, a change in

1273
00:37:50.210 --> 00:37:50.989
three states.

1274
00:37:50.990 --> 00:37:52.249
Trump would have become president in

1275
00:37:52.250 --> 00:37:53.149
2020.

1276
00:37:53.150 --> 00:37:54.379
Although I don't think that's quite

1277
00:37:54.380 --> 00:37:56.029
a fair comparison, because imagine

1278
00:37:56.030 --> 00:37:58.279
if we had the election

1279
00:37:58.280 --> 00:37:59.749
that we had in 2020.

1280
00:37:59.750 --> 00:38:01.579
But it was with a popular vote.

1281
00:38:01.580 --> 00:38:02.869
Biden would have spent a lot of time

1282
00:38:02.870 --> 00:38:04.459
in California, not just use it as an

1283
00:38:04.460 --> 00:38:06.379
ATM, and Trump

1284
00:38:06.380 --> 00:38:08.449
would have spent time in Florida and

1285
00:38:08.450 --> 00:38:09.799
Texas. He would have tried to run up

1286
00:38:09.800 --> 00:38:10.969
those numbers, so would have been a

1287
00:38:10.970 --> 00:38:12.199
different campaign.

1288
00:38:12.200 --> 00:38:14.179
I mean, I still think based on

1289
00:38:14.180 --> 00:38:16.279
the polling, Biden was more popular

1290
00:38:16.280 --> 00:38:17.749
than Trump at the time of the

1291
00:38:17.750 --> 00:38:19.459
election today.

1292
00:38:19.460 --> 00:38:21.109
If you look at the polling, Trump is

1293
00:38:21.110 --> 00:38:22.939
more popular than Biden.

1294
00:38:22.940 --> 00:38:24.919
So, yeah, it's possible,

1295
00:38:24.920 --> 00:38:27.259
but I don't think we we quite know,

1296
00:38:27.260 --> 00:38:28.939
I certainly would support getting

1297
00:38:28.940 --> 00:38:30.229
rid of the Electoral College, but I

1298
00:38:30.230 --> 00:38:31.969
think that's an even harder,

1299
00:38:33.200 --> 00:38:35.029
move than the one that I'm proposing

1300
00:38:35.030 --> 00:38:35.989
in my book.

1301
00:38:35.990 --> 00:38:37.519
Would you make voting mandatory?

1302
00:38:38.880 --> 00:38:40.259
There are proposals to do that.

1303
00:38:40.260 --> 00:38:42.389
And there are countries, Australia,

1304
00:38:42.390 --> 00:38:44.699
Italy that do have mandatory voting.

1305
00:38:44.700 --> 00:38:46.349
I should say that under a system of

1306
00:38:46.350 --> 00:38:47.350
mandatory voting,

1307
00:38:48.330 --> 00:38:49.709
you don't have to vote if you don't

1308
00:38:49.710 --> 00:38:51.179
want to. You can show up and cast a

1309
00:38:51.180 --> 00:38:52.769
blank ballot or mail in a blank

1310
00:38:52.770 --> 00:38:54.599
ballot. So it's not forcing you to

1311
00:38:54.600 --> 00:38:56.069
to choose one.

1312
00:38:56.070 --> 00:38:57.899
You saw in Nevada that none of the

1313
00:38:57.900 --> 00:39:00.119
above. Nikki Haley I mean, so there

1314
00:39:00.120 --> 00:39:02.369
there is a none of the above,

1315
00:39:02.370 --> 00:39:03.029
option.

1316
00:39:03.030 --> 00:39:04.079
None of the above might get elected

1317
00:39:04.080 --> 00:39:05.280
president this November.

1318
00:39:06.480 --> 00:39:08.429
So, I do

1319
00:39:08.430 --> 00:39:10.259
not favor mandatory voting.

1320
00:39:10.260 --> 00:39:11.939
I'm not really opposed to it, but,

1321
00:39:11.940 --> 00:39:14.279
my main, reason for,

1322
00:39:14.280 --> 00:39:15.659
not thinking it would be good for

1323
00:39:15.660 --> 00:39:17.609
the United States is that I think

1324
00:39:17.610 --> 00:39:19.619
it would be very unpopular.

1325
00:39:19.620 --> 00:39:20.519
And part of the reason would be

1326
00:39:20.520 --> 00:39:21.869
unpopular. And this goes back to the

1327
00:39:21.870 --> 00:39:23.399
kind of first principles which we

1328
00:39:23.400 --> 00:39:25.079
didn't talk about yet, is that

1329
00:39:25.080 --> 00:39:26.819
really there are two conceptions of

1330
00:39:26.820 --> 00:39:28.739
voting that have been held

1331
00:39:28.740 --> 00:39:30.059
in this country, kind of,

1332
00:39:31.890 --> 00:39:33.269
as alternatives.

1333
00:39:33.270 --> 00:39:36.449
One is that voting is about,

1334
00:39:36.450 --> 00:39:38.309
choosing the best candidate

1335
00:39:38.310 --> 00:39:39.749
or making the best choice on a

1336
00:39:39.750 --> 00:39:40.679
ballot measure.

1337
00:39:40.680 --> 00:39:41.879
And if you believe that that voting

1338
00:39:41.880 --> 00:39:43.589
is like a test, well, maybe we

1339
00:39:43.590 --> 00:39:45.119
should limit who can take that test

1340
00:39:45.120 --> 00:39:47.339
to people who own property or people

1341
00:39:47.340 --> 00:39:48.309
who are educated.

1342
00:39:48.310 --> 00:39:50.009
Maybe you have to listen to NPR for

1343
00:39:50.010 --> 00:39:51.359
three hours a day before we're going

1344
00:39:51.360 --> 00:39:52.360
to let you vote.

1345
00:39:53.670 --> 00:39:55.379
We've rejected all of that, even

1346
00:39:55.380 --> 00:39:57.419
though the Supreme Court in 1959,

1347
00:39:57.420 --> 00:39:58.919
in a case called Laster, said

1348
00:39:58.920 --> 00:40:00.599
literacy tests are just fine.

1349
00:40:00.600 --> 00:40:01.889
That's still good law today.

1350
00:40:01.890 --> 00:40:03.299
And the only reason we don't see

1351
00:40:03.300 --> 00:40:04.559
states trying logistic tests is

1352
00:40:04.560 --> 00:40:05.939
because there's a statute, part of

1353
00:40:05.940 --> 00:40:07.589
the Voting Rights Act, that doesn't

1354
00:40:07.590 --> 00:40:08.639
allow it.

1355
00:40:08.640 --> 00:40:10.079
The other conception of voting is

1356
00:40:10.080 --> 00:40:11.429
not that voting is about choosing

1357
00:40:11.430 --> 00:40:12.269
the best.

1358
00:40:12.270 --> 00:40:14.099
It's about the division of power

1359
00:40:14.100 --> 00:40:15.629
among political equals.

1360
00:40:15.630 --> 00:40:17.789
And I think that's more of

1361
00:40:17.790 --> 00:40:20.369
the the left side's conception.

1362
00:40:20.370 --> 00:40:22.319
It's the conception that was behind

1363
00:40:22.320 --> 00:40:23.789
the Warren Court when it decided all

1364
00:40:23.790 --> 00:40:26.189
of those cases enfranchising people

1365
00:40:26.190 --> 00:40:27.689
under the 14th Amendment equal

1366
00:40:27.690 --> 00:40:29.459
protection clause, establishing the

1367
00:40:29.460 --> 00:40:30.659
one person, one vote rule.

1368
00:40:30.660 --> 00:40:32.849
It's kind of ascendant, but not

1369
00:40:32.850 --> 00:40:33.839
completely ascendant.

1370
00:40:33.840 --> 00:40:35.669
If you had mandatory voting, I think

1371
00:40:35.670 --> 00:40:36.719
there'd be people saying, well, I

1372
00:40:36.720 --> 00:40:37.829
don't want everybody voting.

1373
00:40:37.830 --> 00:40:39.299
Not those people who, you know,

1374
00:40:39.300 --> 00:40:41.579
spend all day on TikTok or whatever,

1375
00:40:41.580 --> 00:40:43.109
whatever it is that they're going to

1376
00:40:43.110 --> 00:40:44.579
disparage, they can say, I don't

1377
00:40:44.580 --> 00:40:45.869
want those people voting.

1378
00:40:45.870 --> 00:40:47.249
And so I think it would create a lot

1379
00:40:47.250 --> 00:40:48.209
of opposition.

1380
00:40:48.210 --> 00:40:49.949
If you remove all the barriers to

1381
00:40:49.950 --> 00:40:51.839
voting, you make voting easy,

1382
00:40:51.840 --> 00:40:52.859
then we won't have.

1383
00:40:53.860 --> 00:40:55.749
100% turnout or 90%

1384
00:40:55.750 --> 00:40:57.189
turnout, but we probably have

1385
00:40:57.190 --> 00:40:58.659
higher, much higher than what we see

1386
00:40:58.660 --> 00:40:59.499
today.

1387
00:40:59.500 --> 00:41:00.759
When you talk about the different

1388
00:41:00.760 --> 00:41:02.859
conceptions of voting, my overall

1389
00:41:02.860 --> 00:41:05.019
sense is that for Republicans

1390
00:41:05.020 --> 00:41:06.429
and conservatives, they see the key

1391
00:41:06.430 --> 00:41:08.319
problem in our system being voter

1392
00:41:08.320 --> 00:41:09.219
fraud.

1393
00:41:09.220 --> 00:41:11.079
And for Democrats and liberals, they

1394
00:41:11.080 --> 00:41:12.519
see the key problem being

1395
00:41:12.520 --> 00:41:14.919
disenfranchizing people from voting.

1396
00:41:14.920 --> 00:41:16.989
How do we bridge that difference?

1397
00:41:16.990 --> 00:41:18.159
It is a difficult,

1398
00:41:19.570 --> 00:41:22.059
thing to bridge, in part because

1399
00:41:22.060 --> 00:41:23.829
the evidence doesn't really matter

1400
00:41:23.830 --> 00:41:24.830
very much.

1401
00:41:25.570 --> 00:41:27.459
So, I

1402
00:41:27.460 --> 00:41:29.349
don't know if you saw this, but this

1403
00:41:29.350 --> 00:41:31.599
just was in the news yesterday

1404
00:41:31.600 --> 00:41:33.519
back in the 2020

1405
00:41:33.520 --> 00:41:35.439
election, one of the many

1406
00:41:35.440 --> 00:41:37.299
claims about fraud, not the

1407
00:41:37.300 --> 00:41:39.459
Italian space lasers or the Chinese

1408
00:41:39.460 --> 00:41:41.409
bamboo or there was a claim

1409
00:41:41.410 --> 00:41:43.599
that that, ballot

1410
00:41:43.600 --> 00:41:45.939
drop boxes were being stuffed with,

1411
00:41:45.940 --> 00:41:48.639
with illegal ballots in Georgia.

1412
00:41:48.640 --> 00:41:49.659
And there was a whole movie made

1413
00:41:49.660 --> 00:41:51.189
about it by Dinesh D'Souza called

1414
00:41:51.190 --> 00:41:52.689
2000 mules.

1415
00:41:52.690 --> 00:41:54.279
And in this movie, you know, they're

1416
00:41:54.280 --> 00:41:56.019
showing these ballot mules, you

1417
00:41:56.020 --> 00:41:57.219
know, like, like drug mules, you

1418
00:41:57.220 --> 00:41:58.509
know, people who are, you know,

1419
00:41:58.510 --> 00:42:00.009
surreptitiously taking illegal

1420
00:42:00.010 --> 00:42:01.389
ballots and shoving them into these

1421
00:42:01.390 --> 00:42:02.469
boxes.

1422
00:42:02.470 --> 00:42:04.179
And there was a lawsuit over this.

1423
00:42:04.180 --> 00:42:05.349
There have been a number of lawsuits,

1424
00:42:05.350 --> 00:42:06.549
but there was a lawsuit.

1425
00:42:06.550 --> 00:42:08.379
This was based on claims of a group

1426
00:42:08.380 --> 00:42:09.849
called True the Vote, which is one

1427
00:42:09.850 --> 00:42:11.349
of these groups that I think

1428
00:42:11.350 --> 00:42:13.449
promotes voter fraud for personal

1429
00:42:13.450 --> 00:42:15.519
gain and for political gain.

1430
00:42:15.520 --> 00:42:17.599
So they finally they're in court.

1431
00:42:17.600 --> 00:42:19.119
It's the same as when Rudy Giuliani

1432
00:42:19.120 --> 00:42:21.129
was in court in,

1433
00:42:21.130 --> 00:42:23.019
2020. Where's your evidence?

1434
00:42:23.020 --> 00:42:24.729
And they finally admitted that their

1435
00:42:24.730 --> 00:42:26.649
evidence was based upon an anonymous

1436
00:42:26.650 --> 00:42:29.199
tip, and they had no documentation,

1437
00:42:29.200 --> 00:42:31.689
and the whole thing was made up.

1438
00:42:31.690 --> 00:42:33.759
And so this was my

1439
00:42:33.760 --> 00:42:35.589
mistake when I, when I wrote

1440
00:42:35.590 --> 00:42:37.719
Election meltdown, and,

1441
00:42:37.720 --> 00:42:38.889
you know, I talked about it here at

1442
00:42:38.890 --> 00:42:40.729
The hammer. And the next day we

1443
00:42:40.730 --> 00:42:41.799
shut down because of Covid.

1444
00:42:41.800 --> 00:42:43.659
So I'm afraid to be back here again.

1445
00:42:44.800 --> 00:42:46.269
But when I wrote Election Meltdown,

1446
00:42:46.270 --> 00:42:47.919
I had this idea that turned out to

1447
00:42:47.920 --> 00:42:49.809
be wrong. And the idea was, if

1448
00:42:49.810 --> 00:42:52.029
we can just have a

1449
00:42:52.030 --> 00:42:54.609
fair and safe,

1450
00:42:54.610 --> 00:42:56.239
election.

1451
00:42:56.240 --> 00:42:58.279
Any claims of voter fraud would just

1452
00:42:58.280 --> 00:42:59.809
fall down because there'd be no

1453
00:42:59.810 --> 00:43:01.739
evidence to support it.

1454
00:43:01.740 --> 00:43:03.299
It turns out our election was much

1455
00:43:03.300 --> 00:43:05.069
harder to administer than anyone

1456
00:43:05.070 --> 00:43:06.059
could have imagined because of

1457
00:43:06.060 --> 00:43:07.019
Covid, right?

1458
00:43:07.020 --> 00:43:08.639
People had to social distance.

1459
00:43:08.640 --> 00:43:10.349
We had a switch to vote by mail and

1460
00:43:10.350 --> 00:43:11.339
all of these things.

1461
00:43:11.340 --> 00:43:13.169
And yet, the

1462
00:43:13.170 --> 00:43:14.999
social scientists and,

1463
00:43:15.000 --> 00:43:16.979
election experts tell us

1464
00:43:16.980 --> 00:43:18.329
it was the one of the best

1465
00:43:18.330 --> 00:43:19.739
administered elections we've ever

1466
00:43:19.740 --> 00:43:21.629
had, and that didn't matter.

1467
00:43:21.630 --> 00:43:23.279
A majority of members of the

1468
00:43:23.280 --> 00:43:25.379
Republican Party believe the false

1469
00:43:25.380 --> 00:43:27.449
claim today that the 2020 election

1470
00:43:27.450 --> 00:43:29.609
was stolen. So we're in a very bad

1471
00:43:29.610 --> 00:43:31.439
spot. I was telling another group

1472
00:43:31.440 --> 00:43:33.329
a few days ago, it's like we have to

1473
00:43:33.330 --> 00:43:35.339
get through the next 15 years,

1474
00:43:35.340 --> 00:43:37.559
and that's 30% of,

1475
00:43:37.560 --> 00:43:39.599
the Republican Party base

1476
00:43:39.600 --> 00:43:41.099
that is prone to believe these

1477
00:43:41.100 --> 00:43:42.839
conspiracy theories.

1478
00:43:42.840 --> 00:43:44.939
It can no longer be assented.

1479
00:43:44.940 --> 00:43:47.159
And we should really

1480
00:43:47.160 --> 00:43:49.739
do what we can to

1481
00:43:49.740 --> 00:43:51.689
strengthen the center, the

1482
00:43:51.690 --> 00:43:54.119
reality based center, Republicans

1483
00:43:54.120 --> 00:43:56.009
and Democrats who are willing to

1484
00:43:56.010 --> 00:43:57.929
look at evidence and say, is there

1485
00:43:57.930 --> 00:43:59.429
fraud? Is there suppression?

1486
00:43:59.430 --> 00:44:01.259
I just want to add one more thing.

1487
00:44:01.260 --> 00:44:02.759
There are lots of claims of

1488
00:44:02.760 --> 00:44:04.589
suppression that I that are made on

1489
00:44:04.590 --> 00:44:06.149
the left that are, I believe, are

1490
00:44:06.150 --> 00:44:07.949
exaggerated. Hillary Clinton was out

1491
00:44:07.950 --> 00:44:09.599
there, you know, saying that

1492
00:44:09.600 --> 00:44:11.699
Wisconsin was lost because

1493
00:44:11.700 --> 00:44:13.349
of suppression.

1494
00:44:13.350 --> 00:44:14.879
It was an unproven claim.

1495
00:44:14.880 --> 00:44:16.859
The difference is that I think some

1496
00:44:16.860 --> 00:44:18.869
of these laws are actually passed in

1497
00:44:18.870 --> 00:44:20.189
an effort to suppress the vote.

1498
00:44:20.190 --> 00:44:21.569
They just don't actually have that

1499
00:44:21.570 --> 00:44:22.799
effect.

1500
00:44:22.800 --> 00:44:24.179
That's a perfect transition to

1501
00:44:24.180 --> 00:44:26.159
talking about this year.

1502
00:44:26.160 --> 00:44:28.109
We're a little over eight

1503
00:44:28.110 --> 00:44:29.789
and a half months from the November

1504
00:44:29.790 --> 00:44:31.079
2024 election.

1505
00:44:31.080 --> 00:44:32.519
What are you worried about with

1506
00:44:32.520 --> 00:44:34.139
regard to voting for the coming

1507
00:44:34.140 --> 00:44:35.140
presidential election?

1508
00:44:36.830 --> 00:44:38.989
I don't think we have time, but.

1509
00:44:38.990 --> 00:44:40.069
We'll start and then we can go to

1510
00:44:40.070 --> 00:44:41.070
questions.

1511
00:44:42.260 --> 00:44:44.179
So we

1512
00:44:44.180 --> 00:44:46.189
are in an unprecedented situation.

1513
00:44:46.190 --> 00:44:47.360
And that's not a word I,

1514
00:44:48.470 --> 00:44:49.999
use lightly because, you know,

1515
00:44:50.000 --> 00:44:51.409
history does tend to repeat itself.

1516
00:44:51.410 --> 00:44:53.539
But we've never had a

1517
00:44:53.540 --> 00:44:54.889
presidential candidate,

1518
00:44:56.150 --> 00:44:58.459
who is not only,

1519
00:44:58.460 --> 00:44:59.989
relentlessly claiming the last

1520
00:44:59.990 --> 00:45:01.399
election was stolen and the next

1521
00:45:01.400 --> 00:45:02.989
election will be stolen, and the

1522
00:45:02.990 --> 00:45:05.419
election he won was rigged,

1523
00:45:05.420 --> 00:45:06.409
he claimed.

1524
00:45:06.410 --> 00:45:07.309
I don't know if you remember this,

1525
00:45:07.310 --> 00:45:09.199
but, Hillary Clinton

1526
00:45:09.200 --> 00:45:11.119
won by 3 million votes in the

1527
00:45:11.120 --> 00:45:12.529
popular vote, but lost the Electoral

1528
00:45:12.530 --> 00:45:14.779
College. Trump said, coincidentally,

1529
00:45:14.780 --> 00:45:16.099
that there were 3 million

1530
00:45:16.100 --> 00:45:18.979
non-citizens that voted

1531
00:45:18.980 --> 00:45:20.239
all for. He said, all for his

1532
00:45:20.240 --> 00:45:21.019
opponent.

1533
00:45:21.020 --> 00:45:22.279
This was a you can watch a David

1534
00:45:22.280 --> 00:45:23.899
Muir ABC news interview right after

1535
00:45:23.900 --> 00:45:25.039
the election. They all vote.

1536
00:45:25.040 --> 00:45:26.629
And if you look at the number of

1537
00:45:26.630 --> 00:45:27.630
voter fraud,

1538
00:45:28.820 --> 00:45:30.559
non-citizen prosecutions, there

1539
00:45:30.560 --> 00:45:32.809
weren't 3 million or 3000 or 300

1540
00:45:32.810 --> 00:45:35.269
or even 30 in the whole country.

1541
00:45:35.270 --> 00:45:36.739
So we're going to see more of that,

1542
00:45:36.740 --> 00:45:37.579
and that's going to undermine

1543
00:45:37.580 --> 00:45:38.809
people's confidence.

1544
00:45:38.810 --> 00:45:39.810
We've seen,

1545
00:45:40.760 --> 00:45:41.760
death threats,

1546
00:45:43.040 --> 00:45:45.289
swatting against election

1547
00:45:45.290 --> 00:45:46.189
officials.

1548
00:45:46.190 --> 00:45:48.139
We have a tremendous amount of

1549
00:45:48.140 --> 00:45:50.329
attrition among election officials.

1550
00:45:50.330 --> 00:45:51.889
So people are quitting.

1551
00:45:51.890 --> 00:45:54.109
It's a low pay, high stress

1552
00:45:54.110 --> 00:45:55.789
job. Why should you put up with

1553
00:45:55.790 --> 00:45:56.599
death threats?

1554
00:45:56.600 --> 00:45:58.369
And this does a double whammy to our

1555
00:45:58.370 --> 00:45:59.359
system.

1556
00:45:59.360 --> 00:46:01.189
Double whammy. Because first you

1557
00:46:01.190 --> 00:46:03.229
lose the experience.

1558
00:46:03.230 --> 00:46:04.609
And second, who's going to come in

1559
00:46:04.610 --> 00:46:05.479
their place.

1560
00:46:05.480 --> 00:46:06.949
Are these people that are going to

1561
00:46:06.950 --> 00:46:08.209
have their allegiance to the

1562
00:46:08.210 --> 00:46:09.499
integrity of the system.

1563
00:46:09.500 --> 00:46:11.329
We've had some situations of

1564
00:46:11.330 --> 00:46:12.649
this is something that was not on my

1565
00:46:12.650 --> 00:46:14.119
radar even in 2020.

1566
00:46:14.120 --> 00:46:16.279
The insider threat to elections,

1567
00:46:16.280 --> 00:46:18.709
people who work in the elections,

1568
00:46:18.710 --> 00:46:20.599
system and are leaking

1569
00:46:20.600 --> 00:46:22.159
software to the MyPillow guy or

1570
00:46:22.160 --> 00:46:23.629
things like that. So that's a big

1571
00:46:23.630 --> 00:46:24.529
problem.

1572
00:46:24.530 --> 00:46:25.879
On top of that, you've got the

1573
00:46:25.880 --> 00:46:26.880
criminal cases.

1574
00:46:28.000 --> 00:46:29.079
You've got the.

1575
00:46:30.290 --> 00:46:31.749
The four criminal cases against

1576
00:46:31.750 --> 00:46:33.699
Trump that may take place during the

1577
00:46:33.700 --> 00:46:35.349
campaign. And one of them is about

1578
00:46:35.350 --> 00:46:37.029
stealing the last election, and

1579
00:46:37.030 --> 00:46:39.189
we'll know within a few, days,

1580
00:46:39.190 --> 00:46:40.809
probably if the Supreme Court is

1581
00:46:40.810 --> 00:46:42.999
going to fast track this or not.

1582
00:46:43.000 --> 00:46:44.559
And you have the Trump

1583
00:46:44.560 --> 00:46:46.629
disqualification case.

1584
00:46:46.630 --> 00:46:48.579
And I filed a brief, in

1585
00:46:48.580 --> 00:46:50.469
the Supreme Court in that case, not

1586
00:46:50.470 --> 00:46:51.639
about whether Trump should be

1587
00:46:51.640 --> 00:46:53.739
disqualified or not, but about

1588
00:46:53.740 --> 00:46:55.149
how important it is for the Supreme

1589
00:46:55.150 --> 00:46:57.099
Court to give us a definitive,

1590
00:46:57.100 --> 00:46:59.589
ruling, because otherwise,

1591
00:46:59.590 --> 00:47:01.209
there could be chaos and violence

1592
00:47:01.210 --> 00:47:01.509
that.

1593
00:47:01.510 --> 00:47:03.429
I think you're going to get.

1594
00:47:03.430 --> 00:47:04.129
You think so?

1595
00:47:04.130 --> 00:47:05.439
I think they're going to give it a

1596
00:47:05.440 --> 00:47:07.389
finish. I know how I would want

1597
00:47:07.390 --> 00:47:08.199
it to come out.

1598
00:47:08.200 --> 00:47:09.339
This is the Trump versus Anderson

1599
00:47:09.340 --> 00:47:10.689
case that was argued a week ago

1600
00:47:10.690 --> 00:47:12.459
today about whether or not the

1601
00:47:12.460 --> 00:47:14.529
Colorado Supreme Court

1602
00:47:14.530 --> 00:47:15.939
should be reversed, and it's keeping

1603
00:47:15.940 --> 00:47:17.169
Donald Trump off the ballot.

1604
00:47:17.170 --> 00:47:18.549
I think you will get a definitive

1605
00:47:18.550 --> 00:47:19.839
ruling and get it quickly.

1606
00:47:19.840 --> 00:47:21.699
So I think I have to

1607
00:47:21.700 --> 00:47:23.019
be a little more precise about what

1608
00:47:23.020 --> 00:47:24.459
I mean by definitive ruling.

1609
00:47:24.460 --> 00:47:26.559
If the I mean not just a ruling

1610
00:47:26.560 --> 00:47:28.689
that says he's disqualified or not,

1611
00:47:28.690 --> 00:47:30.040
but a ruling that,

1612
00:47:31.090 --> 00:47:32.739
doesn't kick it to Congress to

1613
00:47:32.740 --> 00:47:34.869
January 6th, 2025.

1614
00:47:34.870 --> 00:47:36.969
That is the worst case scenario

1615
00:47:36.970 --> 00:47:38.799
to me in terms of the risk of

1616
00:47:38.800 --> 00:47:39.799
instability and violence.

1617
00:47:39.800 --> 00:47:41.799
So imagine this scenario.

1618
00:47:41.800 --> 00:47:43.809
It's Trump versus Biden two.

1619
00:47:43.810 --> 00:47:44.810
We get to the,

1620
00:47:45.820 --> 00:47:46.899
electoral college.

1621
00:47:46.900 --> 00:47:48.519
Trump is ahead.

1622
00:47:48.520 --> 00:47:49.989
It's time to count the votes.

1623
00:47:49.990 --> 00:47:51.759
Kamala Harris is presiding.

1624
00:47:51.760 --> 00:47:53.619
She entertains a motion

1625
00:47:53.620 --> 00:47:55.269
that Donald Trump is just.

1626
00:47:55.270 --> 00:47:56.589
Democrats control the Congress.

1627
00:47:56.590 --> 00:47:58.749
Donald Trump is disqualified because

1628
00:47:58.750 --> 00:48:00.279
he participated in insurrection.

1629
00:48:00.280 --> 00:48:01.479
And the Supreme Court didn't weigh

1630
00:48:01.480 --> 00:48:03.279
in on that. They just said it's up

1631
00:48:03.280 --> 00:48:04.719
to Congress because that could be

1632
00:48:04.720 --> 00:48:05.949
the definitive ruling. Colorado

1633
00:48:05.950 --> 00:48:07.539
can't do it. It's up to Congress.

1634
00:48:07.540 --> 00:48:09.609
That's a recipe for potential

1635
00:48:09.610 --> 00:48:12.189
violence and instability.

1636
00:48:12.190 --> 00:48:13.509
I would agree with you on that.

1637
00:48:13.510 --> 00:48:15.859
It'll be interesting to see how.

1638
00:48:15.860 --> 00:48:17.469
How they decided as important as

1639
00:48:17.470 --> 00:48:18.309
what they decide.

1640
00:48:18.310 --> 00:48:19.779
I agree with you on that.

1641
00:48:19.780 --> 00:48:20.409
I agree.

1642
00:48:20.410 --> 00:48:21.489
I do want to say one more thing

1643
00:48:21.490 --> 00:48:22.899
before we open up to questions that

1644
00:48:22.900 --> 00:48:24.189
it's not all dire.

1645
00:48:24.190 --> 00:48:26.229
I just like I hate to end like that.

1646
00:48:26.230 --> 00:48:28.089
So let me mention three things

1647
00:48:28.090 --> 00:48:29.979
that happened, that

1648
00:48:29.980 --> 00:48:31.929
that, give me at least some

1649
00:48:31.930 --> 00:48:33.849
hope. First, Congress

1650
00:48:33.850 --> 00:48:35.679
changed the laws that Trump tried to

1651
00:48:35.680 --> 00:48:37.509
manipulate in terms of how

1652
00:48:37.510 --> 00:48:38.589
the Electoral College votes are

1653
00:48:38.590 --> 00:48:40.419
counted by passing something called

1654
00:48:40.420 --> 00:48:42.039
the Electoral Count Reform Act.

1655
00:48:42.040 --> 00:48:43.869
I won't bore you with the details,

1656
00:48:43.870 --> 00:48:45.279
but it makes it harder to try and

1657
00:48:45.280 --> 00:48:47.319
get legislatures to steal elections.

1658
00:48:47.320 --> 00:48:49.659
Second, the Supreme Court rejected

1659
00:48:49.660 --> 00:48:51.999
an absolutely loony theory,

1660
00:48:52.000 --> 00:48:53.079
called the independent state

1661
00:48:53.080 --> 00:48:55.149
legislature theory, which would

1662
00:48:55.150 --> 00:48:56.829
have also made it easier to steal

1663
00:48:56.830 --> 00:48:57.939
elections. They still did stuff in

1664
00:48:57.940 --> 00:48:59.019
that case that I think is

1665
00:48:59.020 --> 00:49:00.999
problematic, but they didn't do

1666
00:49:01.000 --> 00:49:02.499
the worst case scenario.

1667
00:49:02.500 --> 00:49:04.839
And third, there has been political

1668
00:49:04.840 --> 00:49:06.039
action against,

1669
00:49:07.300 --> 00:49:08.109
election deniers.

1670
00:49:08.110 --> 00:49:10.089
So in 2022, in four

1671
00:49:10.090 --> 00:49:12.099
swing states, election deniers,

1672
00:49:12.100 --> 00:49:13.719
people who said the 2020 election

1673
00:49:13.720 --> 00:49:15.369
was stolen even though it was not

1674
00:49:15.370 --> 00:49:17.229
ran to be secretary of state, to be

1675
00:49:17.230 --> 00:49:18.369
chief election officers.

1676
00:49:18.370 --> 00:49:19.779
And they all lost.

1677
00:49:19.780 --> 00:49:22.029
And so we are not asleep anymore

1678
00:49:22.030 --> 00:49:23.679
about the risks to our democracy.

1679
00:49:23.680 --> 00:49:24.609
We are awake.

1680
00:49:24.610 --> 00:49:26.409
It doesn't mean that the problems in

1681
00:49:26.410 --> 00:49:28.359
2024 are going to look like 2020,

1682
00:49:28.360 --> 00:49:29.949
but people at least are aware that

1683
00:49:29.950 --> 00:49:31.839
we can no longer take our

1684
00:49:31.840 --> 00:49:33.429
peaceful transition of power and our

1685
00:49:33.430 --> 00:49:35.229
free and fair elections for granted.

1686
00:49:35.230 --> 00:49:36.939
And a lot of people are activated to

1687
00:49:36.940 --> 00:49:38.379
be on the lookout.

1688
00:49:38.380 --> 00:49:40.059
And I'm hoping and the work that I'm

1689
00:49:40.060 --> 00:49:41.889
doing at UCLA Safeguarding

1690
00:49:41.890 --> 00:49:43.539
Democracy project is aimed at

1691
00:49:43.540 --> 00:49:45.639
bringing together business and labor

1692
00:49:45.640 --> 00:49:48.069
and different religious groups and,

1693
00:49:48.070 --> 00:49:50.199
Democrats and Republicans.

1694
00:49:50.200 --> 00:49:52.119
What can we agree upon about

1695
00:49:52.120 --> 00:49:53.529
how to have free and fair elections

1696
00:49:53.530 --> 00:49:55.329
and how can we support those or

1697
00:49:55.330 --> 00:49:56.949
actually running our elections?

1698
00:49:56.950 --> 00:49:58.929
I think that's a perfect transition

1699
00:49:58.930 --> 00:49:59.930
to go to questions.

1700
00:50:01.570 --> 00:50:02.570
And

1701
00:50:03.400 --> 00:50:04.629
if I write that, someone will be in

1702
00:50:04.630 --> 00:50:06.009
the audience at the microphone for

1703
00:50:06.010 --> 00:50:07.010
questions.

1704
00:50:10.560 --> 00:50:11.499
Or if not.

1705
00:50:11.500 --> 00:50:12.649
Yes. Yes.

1706
00:50:12.650 --> 00:50:13.650
Okay.

1707
00:50:17.950 --> 00:50:19.479
I just wanted to see if you could

1708
00:50:19.480 --> 00:50:20.919
speak a little more about why you

1709
00:50:20.920 --> 00:50:23.259
think the courts have been

1710
00:50:23.260 --> 00:50:25.089
undermining the,

1711
00:50:25.090 --> 00:50:26.949
the Voting Rights Act and what the

1712
00:50:26.950 --> 00:50:27.950
motivation is there.

1713
00:50:30.650 --> 00:50:32.479
So why? The question is, why has

1714
00:50:32.480 --> 00:50:33.859
the court been so hostile to the

1715
00:50:33.860 --> 00:50:35.509
Voting Rights Act?

1716
00:50:35.510 --> 00:50:37.069
Let me first say that in the most

1717
00:50:37.070 --> 00:50:38.719
recent case that the Supreme Court

1718
00:50:38.720 --> 00:50:40.729
decided, most recent Voting

1719
00:50:40.730 --> 00:50:41.629
Rights Act case, it was a case

1720
00:50:41.630 --> 00:50:43.519
called Allen versus Milligan.

1721
00:50:43.520 --> 00:50:44.869
It was a case where a three judge

1722
00:50:44.870 --> 00:50:46.789
court, had found

1723
00:50:46.790 --> 00:50:48.709
that Alabama needed

1724
00:50:48.710 --> 00:50:50.809
to draw a second, congressional

1725
00:50:50.810 --> 00:50:52.609
seat where black voters could elect

1726
00:50:52.610 --> 00:50:54.199
a county of their choice.

1727
00:50:54.200 --> 00:50:55.909
Supreme court took the case.

1728
00:50:55.910 --> 00:50:58.069
And everybody, including me, thought

1729
00:50:58.070 --> 00:50:59.089
that they were going to,

1730
00:51:00.200 --> 00:51:02.209
not necessarily cause, Alabama

1731
00:51:02.210 --> 00:51:04.339
to win, but further narrow

1732
00:51:04.340 --> 00:51:05.149
the Voting Rights Act.

1733
00:51:05.150 --> 00:51:06.799
And yet it didn't happen.

1734
00:51:06.800 --> 00:51:08.809
And so I'm not sure

1735
00:51:08.810 --> 00:51:10.069
why it didn't happen.

1736
00:51:10.070 --> 00:51:11.389
But what's interesting to me is that

1737
00:51:11.390 --> 00:51:13.879
just preserving the status quo

1738
00:51:13.880 --> 00:51:16.429
has been, seen as a victory.

1739
00:51:16.430 --> 00:51:18.409
But in other cases, the

1740
00:51:18.410 --> 00:51:20.119
all of the other cases in the last

1741
00:51:20.120 --> 00:51:21.949
five years, cases like Abbott

1742
00:51:21.950 --> 00:51:23.839
versus Perez, Brnovich versus

1743
00:51:23.840 --> 00:51:25.909
Democratic National Committee, these

1744
00:51:25.910 --> 00:51:28.099
cases, the court has shrunk

1745
00:51:28.100 --> 00:51:30.079
and, shrunk the Voting Rights Act.

1746
00:51:30.080 --> 00:51:32.089
And it's divided along party lines.

1747
00:51:32.090 --> 00:51:33.589
And this is something I should have

1748
00:51:33.590 --> 00:51:35.569
said earlier. This is the first time

1749
00:51:35.570 --> 00:51:37.459
in at least modern U.S

1750
00:51:37.460 --> 00:51:39.439
history where all the conservatives

1751
00:51:39.440 --> 00:51:42.049
on the court were appointed by

1752
00:51:42.050 --> 00:51:43.879
Republican presidents, and all

1753
00:51:43.880 --> 00:51:45.289
the liberals were appointed by

1754
00:51:45.290 --> 00:51:46.669
Democrats. If you think back to Bush

1755
00:51:46.670 --> 00:51:48.889
versus Gore in the dissents,

1756
00:51:48.890 --> 00:51:51.049
Souter and Stevens, both Republican

1757
00:51:51.050 --> 00:51:52.909
appointees, we now have a much more

1758
00:51:52.910 --> 00:51:55.069
Partizan Supreme Court,

1759
00:51:55.070 --> 00:51:56.959
and it's seen as not in the interest

1760
00:51:56.960 --> 00:51:59.120
of the Republican Party to be,

1761
00:52:00.170 --> 00:52:01.849
supportive of the Voting Rights Act.

1762
00:52:01.850 --> 00:52:03.859
I think that that's part

1763
00:52:03.860 --> 00:52:05.809
of what it comes down to when

1764
00:52:05.810 --> 00:52:06.199
you have some.

1765
00:52:06.200 --> 00:52:07.439
So some I follow.

1766
00:52:07.440 --> 00:52:09.019
The question then, is there's no

1767
00:52:09.020 --> 00:52:10.429
doubt that the Voting Rights Act

1768
00:52:10.430 --> 00:52:12.949
helps Democratic candidates

1769
00:52:12.950 --> 00:52:14.299
more than it helps Republican

1770
00:52:14.300 --> 00:52:15.139
candidates.

1771
00:52:15.140 --> 00:52:16.399
So are you saying that it's just the

1772
00:52:16.400 --> 00:52:17.780
conservative Supreme Court?

1773
00:52:18.910 --> 00:52:21.249
Helping Republicans over Democrats.

1774
00:52:21.250 --> 00:52:22.599
Well, then go to Shelby County or

1775
00:52:22.600 --> 00:52:23.229
Brnovich.

1776
00:52:23.230 --> 00:52:24.669
So I you know, I can't get into the

1777
00:52:24.670 --> 00:52:25.959
heads of the justices, but it

1778
00:52:25.960 --> 00:52:27.159
certainly has that effect.

1779
00:52:27.160 --> 00:52:28.509
And it didn't always have that

1780
00:52:28.510 --> 00:52:29.349
effect.

1781
00:52:29.350 --> 00:52:31.359
So during the 1990s

1782
00:52:31.360 --> 00:52:33.099
and then the 2000, for example,

1783
00:52:33.100 --> 00:52:34.869
there were some Republicans who were

1784
00:52:34.870 --> 00:52:36.729
very supportive of the Voting

1785
00:52:36.730 --> 00:52:38.319
Rights Act because it allowed for

1786
00:52:38.320 --> 00:52:40.389
the creation of very safe black

1787
00:52:40.390 --> 00:52:42.039
and Latino districts, where they

1788
00:52:42.040 --> 00:52:43.629
could put a lot of reliable

1789
00:52:43.630 --> 00:52:45.039
Democratic voters in a smaller

1790
00:52:45.040 --> 00:52:46.779
number of districts and have greater

1791
00:52:46.780 --> 00:52:48.699
influence than Democrats figured

1792
00:52:48.700 --> 00:52:49.869
out. Oh, you know, what we can do is

1793
00:52:49.870 --> 00:52:52.029
we can spread out these reliable

1794
00:52:52.030 --> 00:52:53.649
Democratic voters a little better

1795
00:52:53.650 --> 00:52:55.899
and maximize both minority interest

1796
00:52:55.900 --> 00:52:57.819
and, the interest

1797
00:52:57.820 --> 00:52:58.809
of the Democratic Party.

1798
00:52:58.810 --> 00:53:00.639
And as an example, we were

1799
00:53:00.640 --> 00:53:02.169
talking about Shelby County, where

1800
00:53:02.170 --> 00:53:04.119
the Supreme Court in 2013 struck

1801
00:53:04.120 --> 00:53:05.679
down a key provision of the Voting

1802
00:53:05.680 --> 00:53:06.459
Rights Act.

1803
00:53:06.460 --> 00:53:08.559
That provision had been extended

1804
00:53:08.560 --> 00:53:10.479
by Congress by a 98 to nothing

1805
00:53:10.480 --> 00:53:12.549
vote in the Senate, and only 30 some

1806
00:53:12.550 --> 00:53:14.379
no votes in the House, and signed

1807
00:53:14.380 --> 00:53:16.689
by George W Bush into law.

1808
00:53:16.690 --> 00:53:17.709
That's the provision the Supreme

1809
00:53:17.710 --> 00:53:19.359
Court declares unconstitutional.

1810
00:53:19.360 --> 00:53:20.409
Yeah. Let me tell you a little story

1811
00:53:20.410 --> 00:53:21.609
about that. I,

1812
00:53:22.960 --> 00:53:24.789
testified before the Senate.

1813
00:53:24.790 --> 00:53:26.739
So in the House, the bill

1814
00:53:26.740 --> 00:53:28.569
sailed through with no amendments

1815
00:53:28.570 --> 00:53:30.759
because it was a Republican.

1816
00:53:30.760 --> 00:53:32.079
Republicans controlled the House at

1817
00:53:32.080 --> 00:53:33.729
the time. And Jim Sensenbrenner was

1818
00:53:33.730 --> 00:53:35.199
chair of the Judiciary Committee,

1819
00:53:35.200 --> 00:53:36.849
and he was being termed out.

1820
00:53:36.850 --> 00:53:38.769
It should have expired in 2007, but

1821
00:53:38.770 --> 00:53:40.719
they rushed it through in 2006 so

1822
00:53:40.720 --> 00:53:42.279
that he could come in.

1823
00:53:42.280 --> 00:53:44.259
And they did not hear

1824
00:53:44.260 --> 00:53:46.179
from anybody, about

1825
00:53:46.180 --> 00:53:47.499
making any changes.

1826
00:53:47.500 --> 00:53:48.909
And then when it went over to the

1827
00:53:48.910 --> 00:53:50.889
Senate, I was called by the Senate

1828
00:53:50.890 --> 00:53:52.479
Judiciary Committee filled with

1829
00:53:52.480 --> 00:53:54.159
Republicans, and they called a bunch

1830
00:53:54.160 --> 00:53:55.929
of liberal law professors to say,

1831
00:53:55.930 --> 00:53:57.129
the Supreme Court is going to strike

1832
00:53:57.130 --> 00:53:58.899
this down unless you fix it.

1833
00:53:58.900 --> 00:54:00.279
And that's what we said, because

1834
00:54:00.280 --> 00:54:01.719
that's what we had been saying.

1835
00:54:01.720 --> 00:54:03.579
And, the Senate

1836
00:54:03.580 --> 00:54:05.259
Judiciary Committee issued a report

1837
00:54:05.260 --> 00:54:06.969
saying we think the Voting Rights

1838
00:54:06.970 --> 00:54:08.709
Act, this part that got struck down

1839
00:54:08.710 --> 00:54:10.239
in Shelby County seven years later

1840
00:54:10.240 --> 00:54:11.409
is unconstitutional.

1841
00:54:11.410 --> 00:54:12.519
And then they all voted for it

1842
00:54:12.520 --> 00:54:13.389
anyway.

1843
00:54:13.390 --> 00:54:15.249
So, you know, it

1844
00:54:15.250 --> 00:54:16.839
was already the writing was on the

1845
00:54:16.840 --> 00:54:18.969
wall. The change was happening then,

1846
00:54:18.970 --> 00:54:20.559
but they didn't have the courage to

1847
00:54:20.560 --> 00:54:22.179
actually vote against it at that

1848
00:54:22.180 --> 00:54:23.180
point.

1849
00:54:24.630 --> 00:54:25.739
I don't know where the microphone is

1850
00:54:25.740 --> 00:54:26.839
for the next question.

1851
00:54:26.840 --> 00:54:27.840
I think there.

1852
00:54:31.330 --> 00:54:33.249
I'm curious about what you had to

1853
00:54:33.250 --> 00:54:35.139
say about changing the way

1854
00:54:35.140 --> 00:54:35.979
we elect U.S.

1855
00:54:35.980 --> 00:54:36.980
senators.

1856
00:54:38.400 --> 00:54:40.829
Okay, so the Senate,

1857
00:54:40.830 --> 00:54:42.839
every state gets two

1858
00:54:42.840 --> 00:54:44.699
senators, regardless of

1859
00:54:44.700 --> 00:54:45.659
population.

1860
00:54:45.660 --> 00:54:47.609
So California's representation

1861
00:54:47.610 --> 00:54:49.829
and Montana's and Hawaii's

1862
00:54:49.830 --> 00:54:52.079
and Rhode Island's are all the same.

1863
00:54:52.080 --> 00:54:54.239
And that diminishes

1864
00:54:54.240 --> 00:54:56.639
the voting power of Californians.

1865
00:54:56.640 --> 00:54:58.769
Especially when you couple that

1866
00:54:58.770 --> 00:55:00.089
with the filibuster.

1867
00:55:00.090 --> 00:55:01.529
The way the filibuster works is it

1868
00:55:01.530 --> 00:55:03.629
only takes 41

1869
00:55:03.630 --> 00:55:05.579
senators to, to to block

1870
00:55:05.580 --> 00:55:06.779
any legislation.

1871
00:55:06.780 --> 00:55:08.789
You combine those two things.

1872
00:55:08.790 --> 00:55:10.979
You can have a situation where

1873
00:55:10.980 --> 00:55:13.139
senators representing a very small

1874
00:55:13.140 --> 00:55:14.789
minority of the population in the

1875
00:55:14.790 --> 00:55:17.279
United States can block

1876
00:55:17.280 --> 00:55:19.199
the passage of legislation.

1877
00:55:19.200 --> 00:55:21.899
So it's a minority in kind of,

1878
00:55:21.900 --> 00:55:23.699
a system of government different

1879
00:55:23.700 --> 00:55:24.879
from the Supreme Court, which

1880
00:55:24.880 --> 00:55:25.859
supposed to be a check on the

1881
00:55:25.860 --> 00:55:26.849
political branches.

1882
00:55:26.850 --> 00:55:28.139
This is supposed to be a political

1883
00:55:28.140 --> 00:55:29.939
branch. Now, the whole reason for

1884
00:55:29.940 --> 00:55:31.859
the Senate was to the

1885
00:55:31.860 --> 00:55:33.569
compromise with the slave states and

1886
00:55:33.570 --> 00:55:35.309
to give enough power to those

1887
00:55:35.310 --> 00:55:36.659
states.

1888
00:55:36.660 --> 00:55:38.549
But it's hard wired as as everyone

1889
00:55:38.550 --> 00:55:39.509
and I we're talking about in the

1890
00:55:39.510 --> 00:55:40.589
Constitution.

1891
00:55:40.590 --> 00:55:42.809
It is something that

1892
00:55:42.810 --> 00:55:44.639
the equal suffrage for each

1893
00:55:44.640 --> 00:55:46.469
state cannot be changed in the

1894
00:55:46.470 --> 00:55:47.879
Constitution, because this was seen

1895
00:55:47.880 --> 00:55:49.439
as such a key part of what it would

1896
00:55:49.440 --> 00:55:50.699
take to,

1897
00:55:53.400 --> 00:55:55.679
keep the keep the union together.

1898
00:55:55.680 --> 00:55:57.899
So what could if Democrats

1899
00:55:57.900 --> 00:55:58.679
want to do something about this,

1900
00:55:58.680 --> 00:55:59.939
what could they do?

1901
00:55:59.940 --> 00:56:02.009
Far easier than passing

1902
00:56:02.010 --> 00:56:04.169
my proposed amendment is they could

1903
00:56:04.170 --> 00:56:06.119
admit, Puerto Rico

1904
00:56:06.120 --> 00:56:07.559
and Washington, DC as a state.

1905
00:56:08.830 --> 00:56:11.469
That would add, two more senators

1906
00:56:11.470 --> 00:56:13.029
from each of those places.

1907
00:56:13.030 --> 00:56:14.649
It would add at least one

1908
00:56:14.650 --> 00:56:16.149
representative from each of those

1909
00:56:16.150 --> 00:56:17.889
places, and it would give Puerto

1910
00:56:17.890 --> 00:56:19.779
Rico, if it were a state, the

1911
00:56:19.780 --> 00:56:20.919
ability to vote in the Electoral

1912
00:56:20.920 --> 00:56:22.749
College. That's a and that does

1913
00:56:22.750 --> 00:56:23.829
not require a constitutional

1914
00:56:23.830 --> 00:56:24.609
amendment. We do not need

1915
00:56:24.610 --> 00:56:26.079
constitutional amendments to admit

1916
00:56:26.080 --> 00:56:27.579
states into the Union.

1917
00:56:27.580 --> 00:56:29.019
And, you know, states were just made

1918
00:56:29.020 --> 00:56:30.879
up. North Dakota, South Dakota.

1919
00:56:30.880 --> 00:56:31.989
Why do we have two of them?

1920
00:56:31.990 --> 00:56:33.399
You know, it was just these were

1921
00:56:33.400 --> 00:56:35.439
political choices that were made.

1922
00:56:35.440 --> 00:56:36.729
And, of course, the problem is

1923
00:56:36.730 --> 00:56:38.529
there's the filibuster and the

1924
00:56:38.530 --> 00:56:40.659
Republicans in the Senate, even

1925
00:56:40.660 --> 00:56:42.819
if they're the minority filibuster

1926
00:56:42.820 --> 00:56:44.259
to block D.C.

1927
00:56:44.260 --> 00:56:45.969
and Puerto Rico, the exception is

1928
00:56:45.970 --> 00:56:47.259
D.C. would be Democratic senators.

1929
00:56:47.260 --> 00:56:48.669
Puerto Rico's a little bit less so.

1930
00:56:48.670 --> 00:56:50.949
But to amplify what you say,

1931
00:56:50.950 --> 00:56:52.989
in the prior session of Congress,

1932
00:56:52.990 --> 00:56:54.699
there were 50 Republican senators

1933
00:56:54.700 --> 00:56:56.469
and 50 Democratic senators.

1934
00:56:56.470 --> 00:56:58.149
The 50 Democratic senators

1935
00:56:58.150 --> 00:57:00.579
represented 40 million more people

1936
00:57:00.580 --> 00:57:03.039
than the 50 Republican senators did

1937
00:57:03.040 --> 00:57:04.419
when the Constitution was written.

1938
00:57:04.420 --> 00:57:05.919
The difference in the largest state

1939
00:57:05.920 --> 00:57:07.799
in the smallest state was 9 to

1940
00:57:07.800 --> 00:57:09.189
1 in population.

1941
00:57:09.190 --> 00:57:10.149
Now, the difference between

1942
00:57:10.150 --> 00:57:12.129
California and Wyoming is 68

1943
00:57:12.130 --> 00:57:13.130
to 1.

1944
00:57:15.140 --> 00:57:17.209
I should add about Washington, D.C.,

1945
00:57:17.210 --> 00:57:19.109
that the 23rd amendment

1946
00:57:19.110 --> 00:57:20.629
and you can open your constitutions

1947
00:57:20.630 --> 00:57:21.679
to look at that one.

1948
00:57:21.680 --> 00:57:23.389
That was the one that gave

1949
00:57:23.390 --> 00:57:25.369
Washington, D.C., residents that the

1950
00:57:25.370 --> 00:57:26.719
Electoral College votes to be able

1951
00:57:26.720 --> 00:57:28.129
to vote for president.

1952
00:57:28.130 --> 00:57:29.299
I looked at the history of the

1953
00:57:29.300 --> 00:57:30.679
passage of all of the voting related

1954
00:57:30.680 --> 00:57:31.879
amendments. So it wasn't very

1955
00:57:31.880 --> 00:57:33.649
controversial at the time.

1956
00:57:33.650 --> 00:57:34.909
And you might wonder, like, why

1957
00:57:34.910 --> 00:57:36.799
wouldn't it have been controversial

1958
00:57:36.800 --> 00:57:39.529
back in the 1960s?

1959
00:57:39.530 --> 00:57:41.479
Hard as it is to believe, there

1960
00:57:41.480 --> 00:57:43.039
were many conservative Democrats and

1961
00:57:43.040 --> 00:57:44.809
many liberal Republicans, especially

1962
00:57:44.810 --> 00:57:46.549
conservative Democrats in the South.

1963
00:57:46.550 --> 00:57:48.709
So the kind of Partizan politics

1964
00:57:48.710 --> 00:57:50.599
that we talk about today,

1965
00:57:50.600 --> 00:57:52.369
they didn't exist in the same way.

1966
00:57:52.370 --> 00:57:53.989
The idea that you could just, like,

1967
00:57:53.990 --> 00:57:56.239
quickly get someone through

1968
00:57:56.240 --> 00:57:57.439
a get an amendment like this

1969
00:57:57.440 --> 00:57:59.659
through, is,

1970
00:57:59.660 --> 00:58:00.919
you know, we just don't have that

1971
00:58:00.920 --> 00:58:02.539
anymore. And the last voting

1972
00:58:02.540 --> 00:58:04.639
amendment, voting related amendment

1973
00:58:04.640 --> 00:58:06.319
that, is in the Constitution is the

1974
00:58:06.320 --> 00:58:07.519
26th.

1975
00:58:07.520 --> 00:58:09.759
That's the one that gives 18 to

1976
00:58:09.760 --> 00:58:11.749
20 year olds the right to vote.

1977
00:58:11.750 --> 00:58:13.219
That one kind of happened by

1978
00:58:13.220 --> 00:58:14.269
accident.

1979
00:58:14.270 --> 00:58:15.649
What happened was Congress had

1980
00:58:15.650 --> 00:58:18.409
passed legislation that,

1981
00:58:18.410 --> 00:58:20.309
enfranchised 18

1982
00:58:20.310 --> 00:58:21.979
to 20 year olds.

1983
00:58:21.980 --> 00:58:23.449
And this was happening as the

1984
00:58:23.450 --> 00:58:25.339
Vietnam War was ramping up

1985
00:58:25.340 --> 00:58:26.149
and there was a draft.

1986
00:58:26.150 --> 00:58:27.949
And people thought, if, you know,

1987
00:58:27.950 --> 00:58:28.969
we're we're going to send these people

1988
00:58:28.970 --> 00:58:30.769
to die, we should at least let them

1989
00:58:30.770 --> 00:58:32.329
vote for the leaders.

1990
00:58:32.330 --> 00:58:34.789
And so the, the, the,

1991
00:58:34.790 --> 00:58:36.259
the statute that Congress passed

1992
00:58:36.260 --> 00:58:37.249
went to the Supreme Court, and the

1993
00:58:37.250 --> 00:58:38.329
Supreme Court did something weird.

1994
00:58:38.330 --> 00:58:40.219
They said, the statute

1995
00:58:40.220 --> 00:58:42.139
is okay as to,

1996
00:58:42.140 --> 00:58:43.459
state elections, but not to federal

1997
00:58:43.460 --> 00:58:44.689
elections.

1998
00:58:44.690 --> 00:58:46.639
And so the election was coming.

1999
00:58:46.640 --> 00:58:48.949
And so very quickly they

2000
00:58:48.950 --> 00:58:50.209
amended the Constitution.

2001
00:58:50.210 --> 00:58:52.279
It was the fastest amendment

2002
00:58:52.280 --> 00:58:54.349
ever. In fact, some states

2003
00:58:54.350 --> 00:58:55.759
ratified it the same day that

2004
00:58:55.760 --> 00:58:57.379
Congress voted for it.

2005
00:58:58.580 --> 00:59:00.319
We're out of our muscle memory.

2006
00:59:00.320 --> 00:59:01.279
We don't know how to amend the

2007
00:59:01.280 --> 00:59:02.269
Constitution.

2008
00:59:02.270 --> 00:59:03.349
The only other amendment to the

2009
00:59:03.350 --> 00:59:05.269
Constitution that came after that is

2010
00:59:05.270 --> 00:59:06.979
the 27th amendment, which was

2011
00:59:06.980 --> 00:59:08.059
proposed, if ever.

2012
00:59:08.060 --> 00:59:08.959
And you can correct me, I'm sure you

2013
00:59:08.960 --> 00:59:10.459
know the 1792 you.

2014
00:59:10.460 --> 00:59:12.799
So it was part of the the

2015
00:59:12.800 --> 00:59:14.509
Bill of rights. I mean, when the

2016
00:59:14.510 --> 00:59:16.519
House of Representatives

2017
00:59:16.520 --> 00:59:18.439
sent 17 proposals to the

2018
00:59:18.440 --> 00:59:20.269
Senate for amendments, 12 were

2019
00:59:20.270 --> 00:59:21.889
passed by the Senate.

2020
00:59:21.890 --> 00:59:23.749
Ten became the Bill of rights.

2021
00:59:23.750 --> 00:59:25.129
The one of the two that didn't get

2022
00:59:25.130 --> 00:59:27.109
passed became the 27th amendment.

2023
00:59:27.110 --> 00:59:28.999
So, most Americans,

2024
00:59:29.000 --> 00:59:30.349
a majority of Americans were not

2025
00:59:30.350 --> 00:59:31.609
born.

2026
00:59:31.610 --> 00:59:33.769
Since, Congress last,

2027
00:59:35.180 --> 00:59:36.180
passed an amendment.

2028
00:59:37.490 --> 00:59:38.490
Another question.

2029
00:59:41.030 --> 00:59:42.030
Thank.

2030
00:59:46.340 --> 00:59:48.199
Well, Governor Newsom has proposed

2031
00:59:48.200 --> 00:59:49.699
that we have a constitutional

2032
00:59:49.700 --> 00:59:51.799
convention to have

2033
00:59:51.800 --> 00:59:53.720
a proposal for the Second Amendment.

2034
00:59:56.600 --> 00:59:57.769
We could have a whole discussion

2035
00:59:57.770 --> 00:59:58.909
about would it be a good thing or a

2036
00:59:58.910 --> 01:00:00.409
bad thing to have a constitutional

2037
01:00:00.410 --> 01:00:01.459
convention?

2038
01:00:01.460 --> 01:00:03.829
But if we can't get legislation

2039
01:00:03.830 --> 01:00:05.659
passed with regard to guns,

2040
01:00:05.660 --> 01:00:07.009
hard to imagine we'll get a

2041
01:00:07.010 --> 01:00:08.719
constitutional amendment passed with

2042
01:00:08.720 --> 01:00:09.559
regard to guns.

2043
01:00:09.560 --> 01:00:10.639
I think we should take a minute and

2044
01:00:10.640 --> 01:00:11.749
talk about the Constitutional

2045
01:00:11.750 --> 01:00:14.029
Convention, because it's

2046
01:00:14.030 --> 01:00:15.109
one of the things we're learning in

2047
01:00:15.110 --> 01:00:16.219
the Trump era is that there's all

2048
01:00:16.220 --> 01:00:17.569
these parts of the Constitution that

2049
01:00:17.570 --> 01:00:18.979
we didn't know existed.

2050
01:00:18.980 --> 01:00:20.899
Nobody knew it. And besides Irwin,

2051
01:00:20.900 --> 01:00:23.629
nobody knew what an emolument was.

2052
01:00:23.630 --> 01:00:25.879
It's a skin cream right

2053
01:00:25.880 --> 01:00:26.179
now.

2054
01:00:26.180 --> 01:00:28.069
Nobody knew about disqualification.

2055
01:00:28.070 --> 01:00:29.329
I mean, that was a Civil War thing,

2056
01:00:29.330 --> 01:00:31.369
but, every amendment

2057
01:00:31.370 --> 01:00:33.139
that has been adopted has been

2058
01:00:33.140 --> 01:00:34.999
adopted by the procedure that Irwin

2059
01:00:35.000 --> 01:00:35.959
described.

2060
01:00:35.960 --> 01:00:37.309
Two thirds vote of each House of

2061
01:00:37.310 --> 01:00:38.989
Congress, followed by ratification

2062
01:00:38.990 --> 01:00:40.939
of three quarters of the states.

2063
01:00:40.940 --> 01:00:42.739
But there's another way in article

2064
01:00:42.740 --> 01:00:45.019
five, and that is to hold

2065
01:00:45.020 --> 01:00:46.549
a convention, a constitutional

2066
01:00:46.550 --> 01:00:47.509
convention.

2067
01:00:47.510 --> 01:00:49.549
And the idea is somehow

2068
01:00:49.550 --> 01:00:51.409
this convention is going to,

2069
01:00:51.410 --> 01:00:53.779
is going to be convened

2070
01:00:53.780 --> 01:00:55.609
when enough states call for it.

2071
01:00:55.610 --> 01:00:57.349
And there is a big movement on the

2072
01:00:57.350 --> 01:00:59.389
conservative side to call for it,

2073
01:00:59.390 --> 01:01:01.639
and then it can propose amendments,

2074
01:01:01.640 --> 01:01:02.989
which then would still need to be

2075
01:01:02.990 --> 01:01:04.459
ratified by three quarters of the

2076
01:01:04.460 --> 01:01:06.739
states. Right now,

2077
01:01:06.740 --> 01:01:08.599
most people on the left

2078
01:01:08.600 --> 01:01:10.369
who know about this issue are very

2079
01:01:10.370 --> 01:01:11.449
afraid.

2080
01:01:11.450 --> 01:01:12.829
I'm not sure why they're so afraid,

2081
01:01:12.830 --> 01:01:13.789
because if they were, say, an

2082
01:01:13.790 --> 01:01:15.499
anti-abortion measure, that's not

2083
01:01:15.500 --> 01:01:16.489
going to get three quarters of the

2084
01:01:16.490 --> 01:01:18.349
states if there's a stronger gun

2085
01:01:18.350 --> 01:01:19.309
rights measure.

2086
01:01:19.310 --> 01:01:21.139
So I'm not sure what the fear is

2087
01:01:21.140 --> 01:01:22.140
all about.

2088
01:01:23.520 --> 01:01:25.709
I can't resist a shameless plug

2089
01:01:25.710 --> 01:01:27.599
here. I have a new book coming out

2090
01:01:27.600 --> 01:01:29.639
this summer titled No

2091
01:01:29.640 --> 01:01:31.499
Democracy Last Forever How the

2092
01:01:31.500 --> 01:01:33.059
Constitution Threatens the United

2093
01:01:33.060 --> 01:01:34.739
States, and it goes through the

2094
01:01:34.740 --> 01:01:36.689
Electoral College, the Senate,

2095
01:01:36.690 --> 01:01:38.669
Partizan, gerrymandering and other

2096
01:01:38.670 --> 01:01:40.229
things and then talks about how can

2097
01:01:40.230 --> 01:01:41.039
we fix it?

2098
01:01:41.040 --> 01:01:42.689
And I talk in some detail about is

2099
01:01:42.690 --> 01:01:44.489
it time for a new constitution, a

2100
01:01:44.490 --> 01:01:45.839
constitutional convention?

2101
01:01:45.840 --> 01:01:47.429
So maybe next year we can come and

2102
01:01:47.430 --> 01:01:49.109
do this about that book.

2103
01:01:49.110 --> 01:01:50.310
Claudia, if you're listening.

2104
01:01:52.830 --> 01:01:53.830
Other questions.

2105
01:02:00.500 --> 01:02:01.500
Thank you. So.

2106
01:02:04.860 --> 01:02:05.879
Hi.

2107
01:02:05.880 --> 01:02:07.709
So you touched on

2108
01:02:07.710 --> 01:02:09.149
this a little bit. You touched on

2109
01:02:09.150 --> 01:02:11.849
the kind of transactional burdens,

2110
01:02:11.850 --> 01:02:13.829
that can impact whether

2111
01:02:13.830 --> 01:02:15.209
or not people will vote.

2112
01:02:15.210 --> 01:02:17.099
And I certainly

2113
01:02:17.100 --> 01:02:18.959
think that that's one side that

2114
01:02:18.960 --> 01:02:20.669
the scholarship points to as,

2115
01:02:20.670 --> 01:02:21.869
determining whether or not people

2116
01:02:21.870 --> 01:02:23.519
vote. But there's this whole set of

2117
01:02:23.520 --> 01:02:24.839
other reasons, like motivational

2118
01:02:24.840 --> 01:02:26.759
factors, which

2119
01:02:26.760 --> 01:02:28.469
are heavily correlated with class

2120
01:02:28.470 --> 01:02:30.089
and educational status, where people

2121
01:02:30.090 --> 01:02:31.529
are simply just disillusioned.

2122
01:02:31.530 --> 01:02:33.359
If they are low income,

2123
01:02:33.360 --> 01:02:35.219
they feel like the candidates don't

2124
01:02:35.220 --> 01:02:36.059
represent them.

2125
01:02:36.060 --> 01:02:37.619
The campaign issues that are being

2126
01:02:37.620 --> 01:02:39.719
discussed are not relevant to them,

2127
01:02:39.720 --> 01:02:41.429
and simply that nothing will change.

2128
01:02:41.430 --> 01:02:42.809
And I don't think they're wrong.

2129
01:02:42.810 --> 01:02:44.909
I mean, Congress doesn't

2130
01:02:44.910 --> 01:02:46.739
really take into account the bottom

2131
01:02:46.740 --> 01:02:49.049
90% of income earners when

2132
01:02:49.050 --> 01:02:49.979
they're determining how they're

2133
01:02:49.980 --> 01:02:51.149
going to vote on any given piece of

2134
01:02:51.150 --> 01:02:52.439
legislation.

2135
01:02:52.440 --> 01:02:53.550
Do you think that.

2136
01:02:55.190 --> 01:02:56.899
You know, this demobilization or

2137
01:02:56.900 --> 01:02:59.209
this disillusionment that creates

2138
01:02:59.210 --> 01:03:01.429
a, connection between

2139
01:03:01.430 --> 01:03:03.079
economic and political inequality

2140
01:03:03.080 --> 01:03:05.119
can be addressed by the amendment

2141
01:03:05.120 --> 01:03:07.099
that you're proposing, such

2142
01:03:07.100 --> 01:03:09.469
as by automatic voter registration.

2143
01:03:09.470 --> 01:03:10.249
Do you think that that would

2144
01:03:10.250 --> 01:03:12.889
meaningfully shift how campaigns

2145
01:03:12.890 --> 01:03:14.869
are engaging with low income

2146
01:03:14.870 --> 01:03:16.699
voters and the policy positions that

2147
01:03:16.700 --> 01:03:17.779
they're taking?

2148
01:03:17.780 --> 01:03:19.759
And if not, how else can we address

2149
01:03:19.760 --> 01:03:21.589
this disillusionment so that

2150
01:03:21.590 --> 01:03:23.809
American democracy can actually

2151
01:03:23.810 --> 01:03:25.999
accurately, reflect

2152
01:03:26.000 --> 01:03:27.979
also, say, economic statuses?

2153
01:03:27.980 --> 01:03:29.269
That's a great question.

2154
01:03:29.270 --> 01:03:30.919
So I have a few responses.

2155
01:03:30.920 --> 01:03:32.509
First, I think it would help

2156
01:03:32.510 --> 01:03:33.289
somewhat.

2157
01:03:33.290 --> 01:03:35.329
So part of where

2158
01:03:35.330 --> 01:03:37.699
lots of political organizing

2159
01:03:37.700 --> 01:03:39.739
goes today is getting

2160
01:03:39.740 --> 01:03:40.639
people registered.

2161
01:03:40.640 --> 01:03:42.169
It's very expensive to get people

2162
01:03:42.170 --> 01:03:44.029
registered and lots

2163
01:03:44.030 --> 01:03:44.899
of effort goes into that.

2164
01:03:44.900 --> 01:03:46.729
So if we take that out and if the

2165
01:03:46.730 --> 01:03:47.839
government is actually having to go

2166
01:03:47.840 --> 01:03:49.759
out and find people and then

2167
01:03:49.760 --> 01:03:51.289
get them registered, and this is

2168
01:03:51.290 --> 01:03:52.939
happening because we've passed an

2169
01:03:52.940 --> 01:03:54.409
amendment, because we've coalesced

2170
01:03:54.410 --> 01:03:55.459
around the importance of voting

2171
01:03:55.460 --> 01:03:56.809
rights, maybe that means that

2172
01:03:56.810 --> 01:03:58.099
there's been a meaningful shift in

2173
01:03:58.100 --> 01:03:59.389
how we're thinking about our

2174
01:03:59.390 --> 01:04:00.979
democracy, but I don't think it

2175
01:04:00.980 --> 01:04:02.029
would be enough. And it's not

2176
01:04:02.030 --> 01:04:03.559
primarily geared towards that.

2177
01:04:03.560 --> 01:04:05.479
But there are other election reforms

2178
01:04:05.480 --> 01:04:06.379
that could help.

2179
01:04:06.380 --> 01:04:08.359
Let me mention one that has

2180
01:04:08.360 --> 01:04:10.849
been proposed fusion voting.

2181
01:04:10.850 --> 01:04:12.229
Anybody heard of fusion voting in

2182
01:04:12.230 --> 01:04:14.449
here? So fusion voting, they

2183
01:04:14.450 --> 01:04:15.829
do it in New York.

2184
01:04:15.830 --> 01:04:18.259
And in some other places where,

2185
01:04:18.260 --> 01:04:19.819
there are multiple political

2186
01:04:19.820 --> 01:04:21.499
parties, like in New York, there's

2187
01:04:21.500 --> 01:04:23.149
the Working Families Party and the

2188
01:04:23.150 --> 01:04:24.589
Conservative Party and the Right to

2189
01:04:24.590 --> 01:04:25.699
Life Party.

2190
01:04:25.700 --> 01:04:28.009
And these parties can

2191
01:04:28.010 --> 01:04:30.349
nominate people who are also

2192
01:04:30.350 --> 01:04:32.179
Democrats or Republicans.

2193
01:04:32.180 --> 01:04:33.799
And so the Working Families Party

2194
01:04:33.800 --> 01:04:35.389
will nominate progressive Democrats,

2195
01:04:35.390 --> 01:04:37.129
but not all Democrats.

2196
01:04:37.130 --> 01:04:39.139
And in order to get the, say,

2197
01:04:39.140 --> 01:04:41.029
the progressive, the working

2198
01:04:41.030 --> 01:04:42.380
family parties,

2199
01:04:43.640 --> 01:04:45.559
endorsement so that people will,

2200
01:04:45.560 --> 01:04:47.029
vote for the Working Families Party

2201
01:04:47.030 --> 01:04:49.129
line for this candidate, they will

2202
01:04:49.130 --> 01:04:50.749
say things and they will take

2203
01:04:50.750 --> 01:04:52.699
positions that move more in

2204
01:04:52.700 --> 01:04:54.409
that direction. And same thing on

2205
01:04:54.410 --> 01:04:55.339
the right with the Conservative

2206
01:04:55.340 --> 01:04:57.559
Party. And this is a way to align

2207
01:04:57.560 --> 01:04:59.360
the interests of voters,

2208
01:05:01.310 --> 01:05:02.659
align the interest of candidates

2209
01:05:02.660 --> 01:05:04.189
around what voters actually care

2210
01:05:04.190 --> 01:05:05.959
about. And so it means something

2211
01:05:05.960 --> 01:05:07.579
different. If you're in New York and

2212
01:05:07.580 --> 01:05:08.959
you're Democrat who was not endorsed

2213
01:05:08.960 --> 01:05:10.429
by the Working Families Party, for

2214
01:05:10.430 --> 01:05:12.499
example. So there are ways ranked

2215
01:05:12.500 --> 01:05:14.269
choice voting is something that's

2216
01:05:14.270 --> 01:05:16.099
being, used in some places

2217
01:05:16.100 --> 01:05:16.969
in California.

2218
01:05:16.970 --> 01:05:18.409
There are different ways of trying

2219
01:05:18.410 --> 01:05:20.629
to change how we

2220
01:05:20.630 --> 01:05:21.649
aggregate votes.

2221
01:05:21.650 --> 01:05:23.539
And I think the ranked choice voting

2222
01:05:23.540 --> 01:05:25.639
is, more popular in the Bay area

2223
01:05:25.640 --> 01:05:27.559
than it is down here right now.

2224
01:05:27.560 --> 01:05:28.669
But, you know, it wouldn't surprise

2225
01:05:28.670 --> 01:05:30.889
me to see a, an initiative

2226
01:05:30.890 --> 01:05:32.719
on the California ballot at some

2227
01:05:32.720 --> 01:05:33.079
point.

2228
01:05:33.080 --> 01:05:35.119
Doing this in the New York City

2229
01:05:35.120 --> 01:05:36.469
is the first mayoral election.

2230
01:05:36.470 --> 01:05:38.209
Alaska uses it for its senatorial

2231
01:05:38.210 --> 01:05:39.619
election. It probably determine the

2232
01:05:39.620 --> 01:05:41.479
outcome. So it's not so

2233
01:05:41.480 --> 01:05:42.919
radical anymore.

2234
01:05:42.920 --> 01:05:44.869
So there are things now,

2235
01:05:46.250 --> 01:05:48.349
a reporter just wrote to me today

2236
01:05:48.350 --> 01:05:50.029
about, Leonard.

2237
01:05:50.030 --> 01:05:51.349
Leo, do you know what Leonard.

2238
01:05:51.350 --> 01:05:52.249
Leo. Is? Leonard.

2239
01:05:52.250 --> 01:05:53.930
Leo. Federalist society.

2240
01:05:56.310 --> 01:05:58.349
Has over $1 billion

2241
01:05:58.350 --> 01:06:00.469
now from a benefactor to use

2242
01:06:00.470 --> 01:06:01.470
on political.

2243
01:06:03.120 --> 01:06:04.469
Activities.

2244
01:06:04.470 --> 01:06:06.329
One of his operations

2245
01:06:06.330 --> 01:06:07.739
is something called the Honest

2246
01:06:07.740 --> 01:06:08.999
Elections Project.

2247
01:06:09.000 --> 01:06:10.410
It was named by George Orwell.

2248
01:06:11.520 --> 01:06:13.679
And, you know, they make it harder.

2249
01:06:13.680 --> 01:06:15.359
They they litigate to make it harder

2250
01:06:15.360 --> 01:06:17.609
for people to, register and vote.

2251
01:06:17.610 --> 01:06:18.839
But one of the things they care

2252
01:06:18.840 --> 01:06:20.309
about the most is stopping ranked

2253
01:06:20.310 --> 01:06:21.539
choice voting.

2254
01:06:21.540 --> 01:06:22.379
Now, why would they want to stop

2255
01:06:22.380 --> 01:06:23.579
ranked choice voting?

2256
01:06:23.580 --> 01:06:24.839
Well, ranked choice voting is the

2257
01:06:24.840 --> 01:06:26.369
reason, that

2258
01:06:27.840 --> 01:06:28.979
you know, you get people like Lisa

2259
01:06:28.980 --> 01:06:31.109
murkowski, more moderate Republicans

2260
01:06:31.110 --> 01:06:32.729
still elected because,

2261
01:06:33.990 --> 01:06:35.099
you know, when you give people a

2262
01:06:35.100 --> 01:06:36.929
binary choice in a Republican

2263
01:06:36.930 --> 01:06:38.879
primary, and based

2264
01:06:38.880 --> 01:06:40.139
on turnout, you end up getting the

2265
01:06:40.140 --> 01:06:41.639
more extreme candidate.

2266
01:06:41.640 --> 01:06:43.439
It's why California, you remember,

2267
01:06:43.440 --> 01:06:45.269
California has the top two, right?

2268
01:06:45.270 --> 01:06:46.349
So we're going to choose with, you

2269
01:06:46.350 --> 01:06:48.239
know, Adam Schiff and Katie Porter

2270
01:06:48.240 --> 01:06:50.069
and Steve Garvey and Barbara Lee.

2271
01:06:50.070 --> 01:06:51.929
And top two go on to the you know

2272
01:06:51.930 --> 01:06:53.189
how we got that in California,

2273
01:06:53.190 --> 01:06:55.169
actually, was

2274
01:06:55.170 --> 01:06:57.479
was an attorney working on,

2275
01:06:57.480 --> 01:06:59.339
drafting, a precursor to

2276
01:06:59.340 --> 01:07:00.269
that measure.

2277
01:07:00.270 --> 01:07:02.129
It was liberal, more liberal or

2278
01:07:02.130 --> 01:07:04.439
moderate Republicans in California

2279
01:07:04.440 --> 01:07:06.299
who kept seeing more

2280
01:07:06.300 --> 01:07:08.369
conservative Republicans

2281
01:07:08.370 --> 01:07:10.139
being nominated in primaries and

2282
01:07:10.140 --> 01:07:12.469
then losing in the general election.

2283
01:07:12.470 --> 01:07:14.029
And so it was more like the Arnold

2284
01:07:14.030 --> 01:07:15.079
Schwarzenegger wing of the

2285
01:07:15.080 --> 01:07:16.429
Republican Party. So there are

2286
01:07:16.430 --> 01:07:18.289
election reforms that can be made.

2287
01:07:18.290 --> 01:07:20.119
They're far afield from what

2288
01:07:20.120 --> 01:07:22.039
I propose in the book, but that can

2289
01:07:22.040 --> 01:07:22.939
be more inclusive.

2290
01:07:22.940 --> 01:07:25.040
And that can not only,

2291
01:07:26.480 --> 01:07:28.099
be more responsive, but they can

2292
01:07:28.100 --> 01:07:30.229
also decrease polarization,

2293
01:07:30.230 --> 01:07:32.029
which is something that we really

2294
01:07:32.030 --> 01:07:33.030
need to do in this country.

2295
01:07:34.330 --> 01:07:35.419
We have another question.

2296
01:07:41.180 --> 01:07:43.129
Dovetailing a bit with the last

2297
01:07:43.130 --> 01:07:45.529
question, how would you assess

2298
01:07:45.530 --> 01:07:47.689
election administration and

2299
01:07:47.690 --> 01:07:48.889
the ability to vote here in

2300
01:07:48.890 --> 01:07:50.719
California, and maybe even

2301
01:07:50.720 --> 01:07:52.309
specifically in LA County?

2302
01:07:53.630 --> 01:07:54.919
I think we're doing a pretty good

2303
01:07:54.920 --> 01:07:55.729
job here.

2304
01:07:55.730 --> 01:07:57.679
And I would say that although

2305
01:07:57.680 --> 01:08:00.229
there's a lot of politicization

2306
01:08:00.230 --> 01:08:03.019
at the state level in many states,

2307
01:08:03.020 --> 01:08:04.639
if you look at local election

2308
01:08:04.640 --> 01:08:06.109
administrators, they're much less

2309
01:08:06.110 --> 01:08:06.919
politicized.

2310
01:08:06.920 --> 01:08:08.719
And there's been a great movement

2311
01:08:08.720 --> 01:08:10.939
towards professionalization.

2312
01:08:10.940 --> 01:08:11.940
And so

2313
01:08:12.890 --> 01:08:14.089
every year when I teach election

2314
01:08:14.090 --> 01:08:16.039
law, I bring in Dean Logan, who runs

2315
01:08:16.040 --> 01:08:17.040
elections in,

2316
01:08:18.229 --> 01:08:19.309
L.A. County.

2317
01:08:19.310 --> 01:08:20.778
And I used to bring in Neal Kelly,

2318
01:08:20.779 --> 01:08:22.159
who ran them in Orange County.

2319
01:08:22.160 --> 01:08:23.568
And now it's Bob page.

2320
01:08:23.569 --> 01:08:24.619
One's a Democrat, one's a

2321
01:08:24.620 --> 01:08:25.909
Republican, and they talk about

2322
01:08:25.910 --> 01:08:27.559
issues, and it's like a totally

2323
01:08:27.560 --> 01:08:29.389
rational conversation.

2324
01:08:29.390 --> 01:08:31.249
And it's about it's like it's really

2325
01:08:31.250 --> 01:08:33.289
nerdy and wonky,

2326
01:08:33.290 --> 01:08:35.209
you know, the kind of nuts

2327
01:08:35.210 --> 01:08:36.379
and bolts things that you have to

2328
01:08:36.380 --> 01:08:37.369
worry about, like, well, you know

2329
01:08:37.370 --> 01:08:38.959
what? If you run out of paper, what

2330
01:08:38.960 --> 01:08:40.849
if there is a power outage at your

2331
01:08:40.850 --> 01:08:41.850
polling place?

2332
01:08:42.830 --> 01:08:44.389
I think election registration for

2333
01:08:44.390 --> 01:08:45.858
the most part in California is good.

2334
01:08:45.859 --> 01:08:47.809
We did have a hiccup

2335
01:08:47.810 --> 01:08:49.519
here in Los Angeles County,

2336
01:08:50.569 --> 01:08:51.829
when they moved to new voting

2337
01:08:51.830 --> 01:08:54.469
machines and there was a strong,

2338
01:08:54.470 --> 01:08:56.478
a problem and delay,

2339
01:08:56.479 --> 01:08:58.099
with those machines.

2340
01:08:58.100 --> 01:08:59.509
But part of the reason that happened

2341
01:08:59.510 --> 01:09:00.289
is that L.A.

2342
01:09:00.290 --> 01:09:02.299
County decided they were going to

2343
01:09:02.300 --> 01:09:04.219
not buy an off the rack machine,

2344
01:09:04.220 --> 01:09:05.749
but designed something that would be

2345
01:09:05.750 --> 01:09:06.739
appropriate for.

2346
01:09:06.740 --> 01:09:07.759
We are the largest.

2347
01:09:07.760 --> 01:09:09.648
L.A. County is the

2348
01:09:09.649 --> 01:09:11.269
largest election jurisdiction in the

2349
01:09:11.270 --> 01:09:13.639
country, larger than many states.

2350
01:09:13.640 --> 01:09:15.829
And we

2351
01:09:15.830 --> 01:09:17.449
under the Voting Rights Act language

2352
01:09:17.450 --> 01:09:18.379
provisions.

2353
01:09:18.380 --> 01:09:20.358
We have to offer ballots and I think

2354
01:09:20.359 --> 01:09:22.188
13 different languages,

2355
01:09:22.189 --> 01:09:24.139
and you have to offer a ballot

2356
01:09:24.140 --> 01:09:26.059
machine that is accessible to people

2357
01:09:26.060 --> 01:09:28.489
with different abilities, like,

2358
01:09:28.490 --> 01:09:30.438
voters who can't see.

2359
01:09:30.439 --> 01:09:32.929
So you can plug it in and,

2360
01:09:32.930 --> 01:09:34.579
people want a piece of paper because

2361
01:09:34.580 --> 01:09:36.259
they don't trust and they shouldn't

2362
01:09:36.260 --> 01:09:37.728
trust a wholly electronic voting

2363
01:09:37.729 --> 01:09:39.619
system. So it was really hard and

2364
01:09:39.620 --> 01:09:40.639
there were some hiccups. But I think

2365
01:09:40.640 --> 01:09:43.039
overall, we're quite fortunate

2366
01:09:43.040 --> 01:09:44.869
here in California, as

2367
01:09:44.870 --> 01:09:45.950
to how our elections are run.

2368
01:09:48.450 --> 01:09:49.450
Another question.

2369
01:09:54.570 --> 01:09:55.049
Hi, Rick.

2370
01:09:55.050 --> 01:09:56.050
Heroin?

2371
01:09:56.700 --> 01:09:57.899
Do you want to say anything about.

2372
01:09:57.900 --> 01:09:59.429
Third parties and what that might

2373
01:09:59.430 --> 01:10:00.269
mean for the Electoral.

2374
01:10:00.270 --> 01:10:01.270
College?

2375
01:10:04.390 --> 01:10:05.859
I. This is the first time I'm

2376
01:10:05.860 --> 01:10:07.239
thinking about this.

2377
01:10:07.240 --> 01:10:09.099
So if we move to a if we move

2378
01:10:09.100 --> 01:10:10.959
to a popular vote, would that make

2379
01:10:10.960 --> 01:10:12.969
it easier for third parties to win?

2380
01:10:12.970 --> 01:10:14.119
Is that the idea?

2381
01:10:14.120 --> 01:10:15.999
My my question is, is if

2382
01:10:16.000 --> 01:10:17.000
there's no majority.

2383
01:10:18.070 --> 01:10:19.959
Of the third party vote, if

2384
01:10:19.960 --> 01:10:21.399
there's no majority in the Electoral

2385
01:10:21.400 --> 01:10:22.419
College because there's a third.

2386
01:10:22.420 --> 01:10:24.249
Party vote, but then what happens

2387
01:10:24.250 --> 01:10:25.329
if it goes to the House of

2388
01:10:25.330 --> 01:10:27.489
Representatives and each state

2389
01:10:27.490 --> 01:10:28.839
gets one vote in the House of

2390
01:10:28.840 --> 01:10:30.039
Representatives?

2391
01:10:30.040 --> 01:10:31.959
So if there's a third

2392
01:10:31.960 --> 01:10:33.819
party that even wins 1

2393
01:10:33.820 --> 01:10:35.709
or 2 states, it could

2394
01:10:35.710 --> 01:10:37.659
be enough to prevent either the

2395
01:10:37.660 --> 01:10:39.279
Democrat or Republican from gaining

2396
01:10:39.280 --> 01:10:40.929
the majority electoral college.

2397
01:10:40.930 --> 01:10:42.789
And then it goes to

2398
01:10:42.790 --> 01:10:44.979
the House. Each state gets one vote.

2399
01:10:44.980 --> 01:10:46.419
And of course, that's what happened

2400
01:10:46.420 --> 01:10:48.040
in the election of 1800.

2401
01:10:49.070 --> 01:10:50.929
And, we don't know what the rules

2402
01:10:50.930 --> 01:10:52.459
are for states where, say, there's

2403
01:10:52.460 --> 01:10:54.499
an equally divided even number

2404
01:10:54.500 --> 01:10:56.179
of House members.

2405
01:10:56.180 --> 01:10:59.029
So that's another problem.

2406
01:10:59.030 --> 01:11:00.979
I was just reading a story, earlier

2407
01:11:00.980 --> 01:11:03.139
today about Omaha.

2408
01:11:03.140 --> 01:11:05.029
There are two states,

2409
01:11:05.030 --> 01:11:06.949
Maine and Nebraska, that

2410
01:11:06.950 --> 01:11:09.049
don't do winner take all they

2411
01:11:09.050 --> 01:11:10.050
do.

2412
01:11:11.090 --> 01:11:13.069
Some statewide and some based

2413
01:11:13.070 --> 01:11:15.979
on congressional district and Omaha,

2414
01:11:15.980 --> 01:11:17.899
is a likely Biden

2415
01:11:17.900 --> 01:11:18.900
vote.

2416
01:11:19.760 --> 01:11:21.949
But last time around, in 2020,

2417
01:11:21.950 --> 01:11:23.269
there was talk of changing the state

2418
01:11:23.270 --> 01:11:25.189
law to move to winner take all

2419
01:11:25.190 --> 01:11:27.139
because, you know,

2420
01:11:27.140 --> 01:11:28.099
every vote counts.

2421
01:11:28.100 --> 01:11:28.939
And in fact, there are some

2422
01:11:28.940 --> 01:11:30.889
scenarios now if if Biden wins some

2423
01:11:30.890 --> 01:11:32.209
of the states he won last time, but

2424
01:11:32.210 --> 01:11:33.619
not all of them, that we could have

2425
01:11:33.620 --> 01:11:35.629
a 269, 269 tie,

2426
01:11:35.630 --> 01:11:37.699
even without taking into account

2427
01:11:37.700 --> 01:11:40.189
third party candidates,

2428
01:11:40.190 --> 01:11:41.239
the history of third party

2429
01:11:41.240 --> 01:11:42.139
candidates.

2430
01:11:42.140 --> 01:11:43.880
I just saw a poll today that had,

2431
01:11:45.050 --> 01:11:47.209
RFK Jr polling at between 8

2432
01:11:47.210 --> 01:11:48.739
and 11% nationally.

2433
01:11:49.850 --> 01:11:51.559
It's very early.

2434
01:11:51.560 --> 01:11:53.569
People know the Kennedy name.

2435
01:11:53.570 --> 01:11:55.039
People don't particularly like Biden

2436
01:11:55.040 --> 01:11:55.909
or Trump.

2437
01:11:55.910 --> 01:11:57.469
And so why not pick someone else?

2438
01:11:57.470 --> 01:11:59.659
It's not really predictive now

2439
01:11:59.660 --> 01:12:01.129
of what's going to happen.

2440
01:12:01.130 --> 01:12:02.959
Usually that route is very small.

2441
01:12:02.960 --> 01:12:05.059
But, one of our former

2442
01:12:05.060 --> 01:12:06.439
UC Irvine colleagues, Bernie

2443
01:12:06.440 --> 01:12:08.299
Grothman, did a study and

2444
01:12:08.300 --> 01:12:10.129
found that in 2020,

2445
01:12:10.130 --> 01:12:12.049
it was the libertarian candidate

2446
01:12:12.050 --> 01:12:13.399
that cost Donald Trump the

2447
01:12:13.400 --> 01:12:15.499
presidency and that if there hadn't

2448
01:12:15.500 --> 01:12:17.719
been in enough places,

2449
01:12:17.720 --> 01:12:19.339
some votes siphoned off against

2450
01:12:19.340 --> 01:12:20.679
Trump.

2451
01:12:20.680 --> 01:12:22.029
That Trump could have actually

2452
01:12:22.030 --> 01:12:23.949
gotten that popular vote.

2453
01:12:23.950 --> 01:12:25.599
Enough of the popular vote in those

2454
01:12:25.600 --> 01:12:26.769
states that mattered.

2455
01:12:26.770 --> 01:12:28.329
And of course, if Ralph Nader had

2456
01:12:28.330 --> 01:12:30.849
not run in 2000,

2457
01:12:30.850 --> 01:12:32.949
al Gore would have won Florida

2458
01:12:32.950 --> 01:12:34.149
and would have been president.

2459
01:12:34.150 --> 01:12:36.069
So a third party candidate,

2460
01:12:36.070 --> 01:12:37.989
even if it doesn't mean no one gets

2461
01:12:37.990 --> 01:12:39.549
a majority Electoral College can

2462
01:12:39.550 --> 01:12:40.509
decide the outcome of the

2463
01:12:40.510 --> 01:12:41.829
presidential election.

2464
01:12:41.830 --> 01:12:43.929
Now the Nader supporters will still

2465
01:12:43.930 --> 01:12:44.949
fight.

2466
01:12:44.950 --> 01:12:46.419
When you say that and say that

2467
01:12:46.420 --> 01:12:48.249
people would have stayed home or

2468
01:12:48.250 --> 01:12:49.299
some of them would have voted for

2469
01:12:49.300 --> 01:12:51.249
Bush, but I do think I agree with

2470
01:12:51.250 --> 01:12:52.250
you.

2471
01:13:01.900 --> 01:13:03.159
I have a question about

2472
01:13:03.160 --> 01:13:04.719
implementation.

2473
01:13:04.720 --> 01:13:07.479
So I work for city government, and,

2474
01:13:07.480 --> 01:13:08.869
we all work very hard.

2475
01:13:08.870 --> 01:13:10.599
Don't have a lot of employees, just

2476
01:13:10.600 --> 01:13:12.459
like state government people

2477
01:13:12.460 --> 01:13:14.489
do. County government people.

2478
01:13:14.490 --> 01:13:16.509
It I appreciate your

2479
01:13:16.510 --> 01:13:18.639
idea of having state

2480
01:13:18.640 --> 01:13:20.949
and federal government be proactive

2481
01:13:20.950 --> 01:13:22.989
to get people to vote.

2482
01:13:22.990 --> 01:13:25.179
But with you saying that election

2483
01:13:25.180 --> 01:13:27.159
officials are diminishing

2484
01:13:27.160 --> 01:13:28.929
and quitting because it's a low

2485
01:13:28.930 --> 01:13:30.909
paying job and they're getting death

2486
01:13:30.910 --> 01:13:31.689
threats.

2487
01:13:31.690 --> 01:13:33.819
How do you put those two things

2488
01:13:33.820 --> 01:13:35.469
together?

2489
01:13:35.470 --> 01:13:36.669
So the Constitution would have a

2490
01:13:36.670 --> 01:13:38.559
mandate, and then it

2491
01:13:38.560 --> 01:13:40.359
would have to be funded by Congress

2492
01:13:40.360 --> 01:13:41.559
to pay for all of this.

2493
01:13:41.560 --> 01:13:43.119
And so I would I would still keep it

2494
01:13:43.120 --> 01:13:44.889
as a state central system, even

2495
01:13:44.890 --> 01:13:47.229
though if I had my ideal,

2496
01:13:47.230 --> 01:13:49.239
I would nationalize our elections

2497
01:13:49.240 --> 01:13:50.199
for that.

2498
01:13:50.200 --> 01:13:51.999
The way they do it in just about

2499
01:13:52.000 --> 01:13:54.069
every other country.

2500
01:13:54.070 --> 01:13:55.299
You know, if you if you're in

2501
01:13:55.300 --> 01:13:56.739
Canada, if you're in Winnipeg or

2502
01:13:56.740 --> 01:13:58.989
you're in Montreal,

2503
01:13:58.990 --> 01:14:01.659
the ballots look the same.

2504
01:14:01.660 --> 01:14:04.539
The machines are the same.

2505
01:14:04.540 --> 01:14:06.459
The rules are the same.

2506
01:14:06.460 --> 01:14:07.569
That's how we should do it.

2507
01:14:07.570 --> 01:14:09.099
But I don't even propose that in the

2508
01:14:09.100 --> 01:14:10.539
book. I think I say five times in

2509
01:14:10.540 --> 01:14:11.769
the book, I am not calling for

2510
01:14:11.770 --> 01:14:13.329
federalize elections because I did

2511
01:14:13.330 --> 01:14:14.709
in the past, and it's just such a

2512
01:14:14.710 --> 01:14:16.569
nonstarter, not because it's

2513
01:14:16.570 --> 01:14:17.859
a Democratic or Republican issue,

2514
01:14:17.860 --> 01:14:19.689
but it's also that it's because

2515
01:14:19.690 --> 01:14:21.669
local election officials and state

2516
01:14:21.670 --> 01:14:22.599
election officials don't want to

2517
01:14:22.600 --> 01:14:23.919
give up their power.

2518
01:14:23.920 --> 01:14:25.449
We've had decentralized elections

2519
01:14:25.450 --> 01:14:26.379
for longer than we've had.

2520
01:14:26.380 --> 01:14:27.729
The United States goes back about

2521
01:14:27.730 --> 01:14:29.169
250 years.

2522
01:14:29.170 --> 01:14:31.419
So I would say

2523
01:14:31.420 --> 01:14:32.589
that this provision would make

2524
01:14:32.590 --> 01:14:33.969
states do it. But if states don't

2525
01:14:33.970 --> 01:14:35.289
want to do it, just like some states

2526
01:14:35.290 --> 01:14:36.909
didn't want to create a Obamacare

2527
01:14:36.910 --> 01:14:38.769
exchange, then they can let the

2528
01:14:38.770 --> 01:14:39.969
federal government do it.

2529
01:14:39.970 --> 01:14:41.109
But someone's got to do it and

2530
01:14:41.110 --> 01:14:42.489
Congress has to pay.

2531
01:14:42.490 --> 01:14:43.779
So that's how that would work.

2532
01:14:43.780 --> 01:14:45.729
So solve the money problem by making

2533
01:14:45.730 --> 01:14:47.199
Congress pay. And in fact, I was

2534
01:14:47.200 --> 01:14:48.729
recently asked, you know, what could

2535
01:14:48.730 --> 01:14:50.589
Congress do to improve voting rights

2536
01:14:50.590 --> 01:14:52.419
in this country that could actually

2537
01:14:52.420 --> 01:14:53.439
get done?

2538
01:14:53.440 --> 01:14:54.789
Number one on the list might

2539
01:14:54.790 --> 01:14:56.829
surprise you. It's give enough money

2540
01:14:56.830 --> 01:14:58.179
to election administrators to run

2541
01:14:58.180 --> 01:14:59.829
elections because they're running

2542
01:14:59.830 --> 01:15:02.079
them on a shoestring and

2543
01:15:02.080 --> 01:15:04.149
you're asking for trouble.

2544
01:15:04.150 --> 01:15:06.040
You know, during Covid,

2545
01:15:07.300 --> 01:15:09.039
Congress was asked to provide

2546
01:15:09.040 --> 01:15:10.689
billions of dollars that it did not

2547
01:15:10.690 --> 01:15:11.709
provide.

2548
01:15:11.710 --> 01:15:13.149
Do you know who ended up providing

2549
01:15:13.150 --> 01:15:15.129
money to help fund our elections?

2550
01:15:15.130 --> 01:15:17.499
Mark Zuckerberg's foundation

2551
01:15:17.500 --> 01:15:19.120
over $300 million.

2552
01:15:20.290 --> 01:15:21.459
And there were grants that people

2553
01:15:21.460 --> 01:15:22.659
could apply for through through

2554
01:15:22.660 --> 01:15:23.660
this.

2555
01:15:24.160 --> 01:15:26.019
This NGO that was working on

2556
01:15:26.020 --> 01:15:27.879
these things. And then that, like

2557
01:15:27.880 --> 01:15:29.529
everything else, got attacked us.

2558
01:15:29.530 --> 01:15:30.999
Oh, this was meant to steal the

2559
01:15:31.000 --> 01:15:32.289
election for Biden.

2560
01:15:32.290 --> 01:15:34.449
There's no evidence of that at all.

2561
01:15:34.450 --> 01:15:36.429
But, you know, there were many

2562
01:15:36.430 --> 01:15:37.899
things that Mark Zuckerberg did at

2563
01:15:37.900 --> 01:15:39.309
Facebook that I was quite critical

2564
01:15:39.310 --> 01:15:41.139
of and in my last book on,

2565
01:15:41.140 --> 01:15:42.369
disinformation.

2566
01:15:42.370 --> 01:15:43.689
But this was one thing that he did

2567
01:15:43.690 --> 01:15:44.499
really well.

2568
01:15:44.500 --> 01:15:46.329
But we have inadequate funding

2569
01:15:46.330 --> 01:15:47.259
for our elections.

2570
01:15:47.260 --> 01:15:49.479
We run 8800

2571
01:15:49.480 --> 01:15:50.799
simultaneous elections for

2572
01:15:50.800 --> 01:15:52.749
president, and it's only

2573
01:15:52.750 --> 01:15:53.949
as strong as the weakest link.

2574
01:15:53.950 --> 01:15:55.209
If you've got a couple of places

2575
01:15:55.210 --> 01:15:56.859
where things are going badly, that

2576
01:15:56.860 --> 01:15:58.869
could be enough to cause a national

2577
01:15:58.870 --> 01:16:00.729
crisis, especially in our elections

2578
01:16:00.730 --> 01:16:02.829
or this close and so heavily

2579
01:16:02.830 --> 01:16:03.830
litigated.

2580
01:16:05.290 --> 01:16:06.290
Another question.

2581
01:16:07.570 --> 01:16:08.570
Sorry.

2582
01:16:09.130 --> 01:16:11.529
Can you address, Citizens United?

2583
01:16:11.530 --> 01:16:13.479
Is, is your,

2584
01:16:13.480 --> 01:16:15.369
amendment does it relate to

2585
01:16:15.370 --> 01:16:17.379
any of the the issues

2586
01:16:17.380 --> 01:16:19.509
of that? Does it reverse any

2587
01:16:19.510 --> 01:16:21.309
of Citizens United.

2588
01:16:21.310 --> 01:16:23.079
In Wrecking has a terrific book

2589
01:16:23.080 --> 01:16:24.639
about this.

2590
01:16:24.640 --> 01:16:25.839
This you should talk about so that.

2591
01:16:25.840 --> 01:16:27.129
Right. So I don't address it in this

2592
01:16:27.130 --> 01:16:28.599
book, but I did address it in my

2593
01:16:28.600 --> 01:16:31.029
book called Plutocrats United.

2594
01:16:31.030 --> 01:16:32.949
And, I think that the

2595
01:16:34.480 --> 01:16:36.219
since that book I wrote, I think

2596
01:16:36.220 --> 01:16:37.659
that was 2018.

2597
01:16:37.660 --> 01:16:39.369
Things have gotten much worse in

2598
01:16:39.370 --> 01:16:40.929
terms of campaign financing in the

2599
01:16:40.930 --> 01:16:42.009
United States, but it's just not a

2600
01:16:42.010 --> 01:16:44.079
topic I address in this book.

2601
01:16:44.080 --> 01:16:45.220
There are proposals.

2602
01:16:46.300 --> 01:16:48.489
Democrats, for example, proposed

2603
01:16:48.490 --> 01:16:50.379
legislation at the end of

2604
01:16:50.380 --> 01:16:52.509
2021 and 2022

2605
01:16:52.510 --> 01:16:54.129
that would have done voting rights

2606
01:16:54.130 --> 01:16:56.199
and campaign finance and Supreme

2607
01:16:56.200 --> 01:16:57.669
Court ethics reform, which is

2608
01:16:57.670 --> 01:16:59.199
something we desperately need, and a

2609
01:16:59.200 --> 01:17:01.359
bunch of other things, rolled

2610
01:17:01.360 --> 01:17:02.889
all into one that was way too

2611
01:17:02.890 --> 01:17:03.729
complicated for me.

2612
01:17:03.730 --> 01:17:05.229
I decided to stick with one topic.

2613
01:17:05.230 --> 01:17:07.209
Can I tie that book with this

2614
01:17:07.210 --> 01:17:08.589
one in the sense would you amend the

2615
01:17:08.590 --> 01:17:10.659
Constitution to overcome Citizens

2616
01:17:10.660 --> 01:17:12.039
United?

2617
01:17:12.040 --> 01:17:13.869
Well, that is the second best

2618
01:17:13.870 --> 01:17:15.459
solution. The best solution is

2619
01:17:15.460 --> 01:17:17.409
changing the Supreme Court.

2620
01:17:17.410 --> 01:17:18.999
Because what the what the

2621
01:17:19.000 --> 01:17:20.889
Constitution means is what five

2622
01:17:20.890 --> 01:17:22.809
justices say it means, or maybe nine

2623
01:17:22.810 --> 01:17:25.009
justices or 11 or

2624
01:17:25.010 --> 01:17:26.010
15. We'll see.

2625
01:17:27.340 --> 01:17:28.569
Maybe one more question, and then I

2626
01:17:28.570 --> 01:17:30.639
want to give you a chance to

2627
01:17:30.640 --> 01:17:31.640
sum it all up.

2628
01:17:35.190 --> 01:17:37.559
Hey, I had a question relating

2629
01:17:37.560 --> 01:17:40.549
to what you said earlier about,

2630
01:17:40.550 --> 01:17:41.550
that we're talking about,

2631
01:17:42.600 --> 01:17:43.979
those laws which restrict voting

2632
01:17:43.980 --> 01:17:44.980
rights.

2633
01:17:46.110 --> 01:17:47.129
If you were to give a charitable

2634
01:17:47.130 --> 01:17:48.179
interpretation of some of the

2635
01:17:48.180 --> 01:17:51.029
reasoning, one could imagine

2636
01:17:51.030 --> 01:17:53.129
that people who support those

2637
01:17:53.130 --> 01:17:54.989
laws saying that, oh, it's like

2638
01:17:54.990 --> 01:17:56.189
for election security, right?

2639
01:17:56.190 --> 01:17:57.629
Like you have to establish some kind

2640
01:17:57.630 --> 01:17:59.519
of trust for, that they

2641
01:17:59.520 --> 01:18:01.319
actually can vote.

2642
01:18:01.320 --> 01:18:03.089
It seems to me that the ultimate

2643
01:18:03.090 --> 01:18:04.919
problem that they're identifying is

2644
01:18:04.920 --> 01:18:06.839
just a lack of trust in

2645
01:18:06.840 --> 01:18:08.459
those, and how the elections are

2646
01:18:08.460 --> 01:18:09.389
conducted.

2647
01:18:09.390 --> 01:18:10.709
And you also mentioned earlier how

2648
01:18:10.710 --> 01:18:12.659
like there's no evidence for that,

2649
01:18:12.660 --> 01:18:14.399
and I agree.

2650
01:18:14.400 --> 01:18:16.289
And so how do you suppose

2651
01:18:16.290 --> 01:18:18.269
we reestablish that trust

2652
01:18:18.270 --> 01:18:20.849
when you have non-rational actors

2653
01:18:20.850 --> 01:18:21.850
acting?

2654
01:18:22.470 --> 01:18:24.029
Yeah, it's a great question.

2655
01:18:24.030 --> 01:18:25.979
And, I think part of the

2656
01:18:25.980 --> 01:18:28.139
answer is finding

2657
01:18:28.140 --> 01:18:29.759
people who are trustworthy

2658
01:18:29.760 --> 01:18:31.619
messengers. So who can give a

2659
01:18:31.620 --> 01:18:33.299
message of truth.

2660
01:18:33.300 --> 01:18:34.529
So one of the things that was

2661
01:18:34.530 --> 01:18:36.809
proposed in 2020 was form

2662
01:18:36.810 --> 01:18:38.849
a commission that has George

2663
01:18:38.850 --> 01:18:40.949
W Bush and Barack Obama

2664
01:18:40.950 --> 01:18:42.779
and Bill Clinton on it.

2665
01:18:42.780 --> 01:18:44.699
Would that sway anybody?

2666
01:18:44.700 --> 01:18:46.259
I don't think, you know, that would

2667
01:18:46.260 --> 01:18:48.179
necessarily sway anybody,

2668
01:18:48.180 --> 01:18:49.499
on either side.

2669
01:18:49.500 --> 01:18:50.909
Maybe.

2670
01:18:50.910 --> 01:18:52.349
But where is their trust in the

2671
01:18:52.350 --> 01:18:54.269
election system is with local

2672
01:18:54.270 --> 01:18:56.459
election officials and

2673
01:18:56.460 --> 01:18:57.629
local journalists?

2674
01:18:58.650 --> 01:19:00.749
So one of the things I part of,

2675
01:19:00.750 --> 01:19:01.769
one of the things we did under the

2676
01:19:01.770 --> 01:19:03.629
auspices of Safeguarding Democracy

2677
01:19:03.630 --> 01:19:05.459
Project, I got together a group of

2678
01:19:05.460 --> 01:19:07.049
experts in law, politics, media and

2679
01:19:07.050 --> 01:19:09.089
tech, from the left

2680
01:19:09.090 --> 01:19:10.499
and the right. And we made 24

2681
01:19:10.500 --> 01:19:12.359
recommendations for the 24

2682
01:19:12.360 --> 01:19:13.259
elections.

2683
01:19:13.260 --> 01:19:14.789
And one of the things we said in

2684
01:19:14.790 --> 01:19:16.799
terms of trust is

2685
01:19:16.800 --> 01:19:18.989
you need to boost the

2686
01:19:18.990 --> 01:19:20.909
visibility of local

2687
01:19:20.910 --> 01:19:23.789
election officials so that they can,

2688
01:19:23.790 --> 01:19:25.859
on social media, provide accurate

2689
01:19:25.860 --> 01:19:27.779
information. A good example of this

2690
01:19:27.780 --> 01:19:29.759
was during the 2022

2691
01:19:29.760 --> 01:19:32.099
elections in Arizona.

2692
01:19:32.100 --> 01:19:33.929
There was a problem with the way

2693
01:19:33.930 --> 01:19:34.859
some of the machines were

2694
01:19:34.860 --> 01:19:37.049
calibrated, and,

2695
01:19:37.050 --> 01:19:38.519
some people were not able to vote in

2696
01:19:38.520 --> 01:19:40.259
some precincts for just a few hours.

2697
01:19:40.260 --> 01:19:41.879
But on social media, it started

2698
01:19:41.880 --> 01:19:43.379
blowing up that there's, you know,

2699
01:19:43.380 --> 01:19:44.189
someone's tampering with the

2700
01:19:44.190 --> 01:19:45.989
election and the election officials.

2701
01:19:45.990 --> 01:19:47.639
And one of the people from the Board

2702
01:19:47.640 --> 01:19:49.139
of Supervisors, a guy named Bill

2703
01:19:49.140 --> 01:19:50.099
gates, not the same.

2704
01:19:50.100 --> 01:19:52.109
Bill gates got on social media,

2705
01:19:52.110 --> 01:19:53.549
and they immediately made videos,

2706
01:19:53.550 --> 01:19:54.329
and they were out there.

2707
01:19:54.330 --> 01:19:55.829
And this made a difference for

2708
01:19:55.830 --> 01:19:57.209
people, not for everybody.

2709
01:19:57.210 --> 01:19:57.989
There are people are going to be

2710
01:19:57.990 --> 01:19:59.669
prone to believe this, but we need

2711
01:19:59.670 --> 01:20:01.559
to make it easy for people

2712
01:20:01.560 --> 01:20:03.539
to find reliable information.

2713
01:20:03.540 --> 01:20:05.399
Part of the problem, and this

2714
01:20:05.400 --> 01:20:06.929
is a topic for a different day, is

2715
01:20:06.930 --> 01:20:08.999
the decline of local news media

2716
01:20:09.000 --> 01:20:10.710
and the inability of,

2717
01:20:11.940 --> 01:20:13.589
the business model to be able to

2718
01:20:13.590 --> 01:20:15.689
support what we need, which is,

2719
01:20:15.690 --> 01:20:17.729
investigative reporting and accurate

2720
01:20:17.730 --> 01:20:19.259
reporting about elections and

2721
01:20:19.260 --> 01:20:20.699
politics and policy.

2722
01:20:20.700 --> 01:20:22.619
And so that's part of what we need

2723
01:20:22.620 --> 01:20:24.119
for trust. And we're going to have

2724
01:20:24.120 --> 01:20:25.139
to figure out how we're going to

2725
01:20:25.140 --> 01:20:26.939
provide that to people when people

2726
01:20:26.940 --> 01:20:28.169
are not paying for it anymore.

2727
01:20:29.730 --> 01:20:31.319
Rick, you've run a wonderful book.

2728
01:20:31.320 --> 01:20:32.729
It's a wonderful book.

2729
01:20:32.730 --> 01:20:34.619
I hope everyone here will buy

2730
01:20:34.620 --> 01:20:36.479
a copy and read it.

2731
01:20:36.480 --> 01:20:38.309
What do you most want people to take

2732
01:20:38.310 --> 01:20:39.269
from the book and from this

2733
01:20:39.270 --> 01:20:40.559
conversation tonight?

2734
01:20:40.560 --> 01:20:41.459
Well, let me say from the

2735
01:20:41.460 --> 01:20:43.139
conversation, which is that it's

2736
01:20:43.140 --> 01:20:45.269
very easy when I speak,

2737
01:20:45.270 --> 01:20:46.499
for people to walk out quite

2738
01:20:46.500 --> 01:20:47.500
depressed.

2739
01:20:48.810 --> 01:20:50.609
I have this experience a lot.

2740
01:20:50.610 --> 01:20:52.679
And so, I what

2741
01:20:52.680 --> 01:20:54.599
I'm saying is,

2742
01:20:54.600 --> 01:20:56.519
not, a reason for despair,

2743
01:20:56.520 --> 01:20:58.139
but a call to action.

2744
01:20:58.140 --> 01:21:00.059
One of the one of the maybe benefits

2745
01:21:00.060 --> 01:21:01.649
of having a decentralized election

2746
01:21:01.650 --> 01:21:03.569
system is that there are many places

2747
01:21:03.570 --> 01:21:05.549
you can try to make a difference.

2748
01:21:05.550 --> 01:21:07.529
And so, one of the things

2749
01:21:07.530 --> 01:21:09.329
that, I think Claudia told me before

2750
01:21:09.330 --> 01:21:11.099
we came on was that there are voter

2751
01:21:11.100 --> 01:21:12.929
registration forms in the back

2752
01:21:12.930 --> 01:21:13.829
of the room. If you're not

2753
01:21:13.830 --> 01:21:15.299
registered to vote, go register to

2754
01:21:15.300 --> 01:21:16.859
vote Register. You get someone other

2755
01:21:16.860 --> 01:21:18.119
some other people to register to

2756
01:21:18.120 --> 01:21:20.039
vote. And think about how you

2757
01:21:20.040 --> 01:21:22.019
can actually help to

2758
01:21:22.020 --> 01:21:25.169
safeguard our democracy in 2024.

2759
01:21:25.170 --> 01:21:27.479
Please join me in thanking Rick.

2760
01:21:27.480 --> 01:21:28.480
And thank you, Erwin.