WEBVTT 1 00:00:31.390 --> 00:00:33.309 Please join me in welcoming director 2 00:00:33.310 --> 00:00:35.319 Pratibha Parmar and Karen 3 00:00:35.320 --> 00:00:37.539 Tongson, chair of USC's Department 4 00:00:37.540 --> 00:00:39.399 of Gender and Sexuality Studies. 5 00:01:03.390 --> 00:01:04.390 Thank you. 6 00:01:05.280 --> 00:01:07.109 So before we begin 7 00:01:07.110 --> 00:01:09.179 our conversation, believe 8 00:01:09.180 --> 00:01:11.399 Pajiba wants to share 9 00:01:11.400 --> 00:01:13.529 a few notes of thanks 10 00:01:13.530 --> 00:01:14.640 and acknowledgment. 11 00:01:15.820 --> 00:01:17.469 Um. Yeah. 12 00:01:17.470 --> 00:01:19.179 Given this is our L.A. 13 00:01:19.180 --> 00:01:20.180 premiere. 14 00:01:20.980 --> 00:01:23.019 First of all, I really want to thank 15 00:01:23.020 --> 00:01:24.879 the Hammer Museum, and particularly 16 00:01:24.880 --> 00:01:27.699 Claudia and Shannon for 17 00:01:27.700 --> 00:01:29.319 their hard work in putting this 18 00:01:29.320 --> 00:01:30.320 screening together. 19 00:01:31.460 --> 00:01:33.519 Um, I also 20 00:01:33.520 --> 00:01:35.949 want to thank Ken Batchelor, 21 00:01:35.950 --> 00:01:37.779 who's here in the audience, 22 00:01:37.780 --> 00:01:40.449 who was our music supervisor 23 00:01:40.450 --> 00:01:42.159 and associate producer. 24 00:01:42.160 --> 00:01:44.349 And as you can tell from the music 25 00:01:44.350 --> 00:01:46.179 and the film, 26 00:01:46.180 --> 00:01:48.429 you know, I was very ambitious 27 00:01:48.430 --> 00:01:50.529 in the kind of music I wanted, 28 00:01:50.530 --> 00:01:52.329 and it wasn't always easy to get 29 00:01:52.330 --> 00:01:54.249 those tracks cleared. 30 00:01:54.250 --> 00:01:56.499 And Ken just 31 00:01:56.500 --> 00:01:58.719 gave it his all and it was just 32 00:01:58.720 --> 00:01:59.709 spectacular. 33 00:01:59.710 --> 00:02:00.760 So thank you, Ken, 34 00:02:04.900 --> 00:02:06.999 A huge mega thanks 35 00:02:07.000 --> 00:02:09.159 to our one of our 36 00:02:09.160 --> 00:02:11.409 executive producers, Amy Shoulder, 37 00:02:11.410 --> 00:02:13.089 who's here in the audience. 38 00:02:14.230 --> 00:02:16.509 Thank you, Amy, so much 39 00:02:16.510 --> 00:02:18.759 for your the 40 00:02:18.760 --> 00:02:20.949 your absolute and total commitment 41 00:02:20.950 --> 00:02:23.649 to us as the filmmakers 42 00:02:23.650 --> 00:02:25.629 and taking us 43 00:02:25.630 --> 00:02:26.529 through to the end. 44 00:02:26.530 --> 00:02:28.149 The film took about seven years to 45 00:02:28.150 --> 00:02:30.069 make, and towards the end 46 00:02:30.070 --> 00:02:32.139 of that period, both 47 00:02:32.140 --> 00:02:34.089 Shane because the producer 48 00:02:34.090 --> 00:02:35.379 and myself, which is pretty 49 00:02:35.380 --> 00:02:37.329 exhausted, and Amy came in 50 00:02:37.330 --> 00:02:39.370 and helped us through the last legs. 51 00:02:40.720 --> 00:02:43.629 And Amy's worked her magic 52 00:02:43.630 --> 00:02:45.339 and we have finally got a 53 00:02:45.340 --> 00:02:46.749 distributor for the film, 54 00:02:47.950 --> 00:02:50.619 and it will be 55 00:02:50.620 --> 00:02:52.780 on streaming and online 56 00:02:54.070 --> 00:02:55.959 early next year through 57 00:02:55.960 --> 00:02:58.809 a distributor called Oscilloscope. 58 00:02:58.810 --> 00:03:00.729 And so please watch out 59 00:03:00.730 --> 00:03:03.039 for the film going online 60 00:03:03.040 --> 00:03:04.869 early next year. 61 00:03:04.870 --> 00:03:06.999 Last but not least, I want to thank 62 00:03:07.000 --> 00:03:09.789 Shahin Hak, who's the producer 63 00:03:09.790 --> 00:03:12.159 who absolutely 64 00:03:12.160 --> 00:03:14.139 worked her and 65 00:03:14.140 --> 00:03:16.149 she worked 16 hour days. 66 00:03:16.150 --> 00:03:17.979 She wore 67 00:03:17.980 --> 00:03:20.139 multiple hats, was the production 68 00:03:20.140 --> 00:03:21.999 designer, was 69 00:03:22.000 --> 00:03:23.769 the all co-producer, archive 70 00:03:23.770 --> 00:03:24.969 researcher. 71 00:03:24.970 --> 00:03:26.949 And whenever 72 00:03:26.950 --> 00:03:28.569 I had some moments of 73 00:03:29.710 --> 00:03:31.239 I just can't do this anymore, it's 74 00:03:31.240 --> 00:03:32.439 too bloody hard. 75 00:03:32.440 --> 00:03:34.329 She'll be like, No, just one bit 76 00:03:34.330 --> 00:03:36.129 more. Let's just get over the next 77 00:03:36.130 --> 00:03:38.139 few weeks. And so she 78 00:03:38.140 --> 00:03:40.029 really kind of sustained me 79 00:03:40.030 --> 00:03:41.529 throughout the process. 80 00:03:41.530 --> 00:03:43.569 So thank you for giving 81 00:03:43.570 --> 00:03:45.009 me the time to say thanks. 82 00:03:46.150 --> 00:03:47.859 And thank you all for coming this 83 00:03:47.860 --> 00:03:49.989 evening. I understand that Ella 84 00:03:49.990 --> 00:03:52.059 is really difficult to 85 00:03:52.060 --> 00:03:53.919 drive around in and get 86 00:03:53.920 --> 00:03:55.809 around, and so I really 87 00:03:55.810 --> 00:03:57.189 appreciate you all here. 88 00:03:59.980 --> 00:04:01.899 So I 89 00:04:01.900 --> 00:04:02.739 guess now we'll begin our 90 00:04:02.740 --> 00:04:04.419 conversation and have a chance to 91 00:04:04.420 --> 00:04:06.339 look in the bask in the glow 92 00:04:06.340 --> 00:04:08.229 of all of that gratitude to talk 93 00:04:08.230 --> 00:04:10.149 about this incredible film 94 00:04:10.150 --> 00:04:12.099 that you made. And, you know, 95 00:04:12.100 --> 00:04:14.049 my first question really is just to 96 00:04:14.050 --> 00:04:16.449 invite you to talk 97 00:04:16.450 --> 00:04:19.148 about its origins 98 00:04:19.149 --> 00:04:20.979 in so far as you know, as far 99 00:04:20.980 --> 00:04:21.939 as I know that you weren't 100 00:04:21.940 --> 00:04:23.859 necessarily invested 101 00:04:23.860 --> 00:04:25.779 in Dworkin as a figure. 102 00:04:25.780 --> 00:04:27.009 You know, she was sort of someone in 103 00:04:27.010 --> 00:04:28.179 the ether, obviously, that you'd 104 00:04:28.180 --> 00:04:29.649 encountered in different ways. 105 00:04:29.650 --> 00:04:31.569 But in what 106 00:04:31.570 --> 00:04:33.519 ways were you induced 107 00:04:33.520 --> 00:04:35.679 to make this project, and 108 00:04:35.680 --> 00:04:37.329 how was that sort of atypical from 109 00:04:37.330 --> 00:04:39.369 how you usually go about selecting 110 00:04:39.370 --> 00:04:41.739 the subjects for your features? 111 00:04:41.740 --> 00:04:43.720 Yeah, great question. 112 00:04:45.910 --> 00:04:47.349 Well, first of all, you know, Andrew 113 00:04:47.350 --> 00:04:49.509 Dworkin was never in my sightlines. 114 00:04:51.310 --> 00:04:53.589 I my genealogy 115 00:04:53.590 --> 00:04:56.019 is as a feminist 116 00:04:56.020 --> 00:04:58.749 who really found my foundations 117 00:04:58.750 --> 00:05:00.669 in reading 118 00:05:00.670 --> 00:05:02.289 the writings of women of color, 119 00:05:02.290 --> 00:05:04.299 feminists like Alice Walker, Jim 120 00:05:04.300 --> 00:05:06.279 Jordan, Angela Davis, 121 00:05:06.280 --> 00:05:08.439 Bell Hooks, Gloria 122 00:05:08.440 --> 00:05:11.019 Anzaldua, you know, 123 00:05:11.020 --> 00:05:12.519 Cherrie Moraga. 124 00:05:12.520 --> 00:05:14.349 And so I 125 00:05:14.350 --> 00:05:16.269 never, you know, and it all 126 00:05:16.270 --> 00:05:17.859 came and I knew of, but I never 127 00:05:17.860 --> 00:05:19.209 really would have considered making 128 00:05:19.210 --> 00:05:20.379 a film on her. 129 00:05:20.380 --> 00:05:22.479 And what happened 130 00:05:22.480 --> 00:05:25.149 was that I got approached 131 00:05:25.150 --> 00:05:27.219 by two very kind 132 00:05:27.220 --> 00:05:29.469 of straight industry 133 00:05:29.470 --> 00:05:32.439 film TV industry producers 134 00:05:32.440 --> 00:05:34.389 in the U.K., and 135 00:05:34.390 --> 00:05:36.639 they had seen the documentary 136 00:05:36.640 --> 00:05:38.439 I'd made on Alice Walker, which had 137 00:05:38.440 --> 00:05:41.049 been broadcast on BBC, 138 00:05:41.050 --> 00:05:42.699 and they asked me if I would be 139 00:05:42.700 --> 00:05:44.679 interested in making a film 140 00:05:44.680 --> 00:05:45.699 on Andrew Dworkin. 141 00:05:45.700 --> 00:05:47.469 And I was like really intrigued 142 00:05:47.470 --> 00:05:49.959 because here with these two 143 00:05:49.960 --> 00:05:52.179 very straight guys interested 144 00:05:52.180 --> 00:05:53.919 in making a film on Andrew Dworkin, 145 00:05:53.920 --> 00:05:56.229 and I was so, so I met with them 146 00:05:56.230 --> 00:05:57.230 and 147 00:05:58.720 --> 00:06:00.549 I, you know, they, they were 148 00:06:00.550 --> 00:06:02.409 well-meaning, but I didn't 149 00:06:02.410 --> 00:06:04.299 particularly agree with the 150 00:06:04.300 --> 00:06:05.919 approach that they were taking. 151 00:06:05.920 --> 00:06:07.959 So I said, you know, good luck, 152 00:06:07.960 --> 00:06:09.880 guys, and thank you, but no thanks. 153 00:06:10.960 --> 00:06:12.819 And they said, Well, what 154 00:06:12.820 --> 00:06:15.189 would you how would you do it? 155 00:06:15.190 --> 00:06:17.439 And I said, I 156 00:06:17.440 --> 00:06:19.419 would need to go back and read 157 00:06:19.420 --> 00:06:21.279 and read ORKIN because I realized I 158 00:06:21.280 --> 00:06:23.499 hadn't read a lot of her work. 159 00:06:23.500 --> 00:06:25.749 So I went back and I read 160 00:06:25.750 --> 00:06:27.579 quite a few of her books and 161 00:06:27.580 --> 00:06:29.859 two books in particular, Mercy, 162 00:06:29.860 --> 00:06:31.899 which is auteur fiction 163 00:06:31.900 --> 00:06:33.429 and heartbreak. 164 00:06:33.430 --> 00:06:35.379 Her memoir, I read those 165 00:06:35.380 --> 00:06:37.389 two books, and it was just 166 00:06:37.390 --> 00:06:39.459 I was just completely kind 167 00:06:39.460 --> 00:06:41.979 of taken by her writing 168 00:06:41.980 --> 00:06:44.169 her use of language 169 00:06:44.170 --> 00:06:46.059 and also this kind of story 170 00:06:46.060 --> 00:06:47.199 of a woman who 171 00:06:48.820 --> 00:06:50.559 really wanted to be a writer. 172 00:06:50.560 --> 00:06:52.689 That was her ambition, that was 173 00:06:52.690 --> 00:06:53.799 her desire. 174 00:06:53.800 --> 00:06:55.239 And then all of these different 175 00:06:55.240 --> 00:06:57.159 things happened, which kind of she 176 00:06:57.160 --> 00:06:59.829 had to fight against in order to 177 00:06:59.830 --> 00:07:01.629 be who she wanted to be, which as a 178 00:07:01.630 --> 00:07:03.069 writer. 179 00:07:03.070 --> 00:07:04.899 And also I kind 180 00:07:04.900 --> 00:07:06.759 of saw how well the 181 00:07:06.760 --> 00:07:08.769 beginning actually, of one 182 00:07:08.770 --> 00:07:10.659 of those two books in the 183 00:07:10.660 --> 00:07:12.399 front of the book, she had this 184 00:07:12.400 --> 00:07:15.129 quote from the French 185 00:07:15.130 --> 00:07:17.229 writer Wrembel, which is just 186 00:07:17.230 --> 00:07:19.209 so you know, I am another. 187 00:07:19.210 --> 00:07:21.759 And so she kind of had this 188 00:07:21.760 --> 00:07:24.189 really acute awareness 189 00:07:24.190 --> 00:07:26.379 of her, the different 190 00:07:26.380 --> 00:07:28.299 sides of who she was, how she was 191 00:07:28.300 --> 00:07:29.889 perceived. 192 00:07:29.890 --> 00:07:31.149 And then in some of my other 193 00:07:31.150 --> 00:07:33.249 research in it, while I was 194 00:07:33.250 --> 00:07:35.319 researching it, I came across 195 00:07:35.320 --> 00:07:37.329 a quote from the European 196 00:07:37.330 --> 00:07:39.969 cultural critic John Birger, 197 00:07:39.970 --> 00:07:41.889 whose work I really admired 198 00:07:41.890 --> 00:07:42.969 and respected. 199 00:07:42.970 --> 00:07:44.799 And he said that Andrea 200 00:07:44.800 --> 00:07:46.779 Dworkin was one of the most 201 00:07:46.780 --> 00:07:48.729 misrepresented writers 202 00:07:48.730 --> 00:07:50.829 of the 20th century, and 203 00:07:50.830 --> 00:07:52.299 I kind of could see what he was 204 00:07:52.300 --> 00:07:54.129 saying as I began to, you 205 00:07:54.130 --> 00:07:55.990 know, investigate, go deeper. 206 00:07:57.640 --> 00:07:58.719 So that was one quote. 207 00:07:58.720 --> 00:08:00.849 And then the other quote was from 208 00:08:00.850 --> 00:08:02.739 Leonard Cohen, and 209 00:08:02.740 --> 00:08:04.749 Leonard Cohen was on tour 210 00:08:04.750 --> 00:08:06.040 and he was being interviewed 211 00:08:07.060 --> 00:08:08.469 in for Rolling Stone. 212 00:08:08.470 --> 00:08:10.179 And there's a photograph with the 213 00:08:10.180 --> 00:08:12.099 interview, and he's sitting on his 214 00:08:12.100 --> 00:08:14.499 hospital, on his hotel bed, 215 00:08:14.500 --> 00:08:16.779 and he has intercourse, 216 00:08:16.780 --> 00:08:18.759 the book, Andreas Book, on 217 00:08:18.760 --> 00:08:20.919 the bed alongside him. 218 00:08:20.920 --> 00:08:23.349 And so the interviewer says, 219 00:08:23.350 --> 00:08:25.029 you know, what are you doing reading 220 00:08:25.030 --> 00:08:27.159 this kind of, you know, radical man 221 00:08:27.160 --> 00:08:29.919 hating lesbian, 222 00:08:29.920 --> 00:08:31.179 you know, feminist. 223 00:08:31.180 --> 00:08:33.129 And Leonard Cohen had 224 00:08:33.130 --> 00:08:35.529 this really beautiful response 225 00:08:35.530 --> 00:08:37.209 to it, and it's too long for me to 226 00:08:37.210 --> 00:08:38.210 remember it. 227 00:08:39.250 --> 00:08:41.109 But he said something like, you 228 00:08:41.110 --> 00:08:43.058 know, the writing in this book 229 00:08:43.059 --> 00:08:45.039 is the kind of writing 230 00:08:45.040 --> 00:08:46.330 that challenges 231 00:08:48.010 --> 00:08:50.529 long held beliefs 232 00:08:50.530 --> 00:08:52.149 that we have taken for granted for 233 00:08:52.150 --> 00:08:53.079 millennia. 234 00:08:53.080 --> 00:08:55.149 And that took by the questioning 235 00:08:55.150 --> 00:08:56.979 of these beliefs 236 00:08:56.980 --> 00:08:58.579 she's forcing us to. 237 00:08:58.580 --> 00:09:00.409 Think of how the world 238 00:09:00.410 --> 00:09:01.729 could be different. 239 00:09:01.730 --> 00:09:03.889 And he said, it is this kind 240 00:09:03.890 --> 00:09:05.779 of revolutionary thinking that 241 00:09:05.780 --> 00:09:07.639 can bring about new worlds. 242 00:09:07.640 --> 00:09:09.409 And so, you know, here are these two 243 00:09:09.410 --> 00:09:11.779 guys who I respect 244 00:09:11.780 --> 00:09:12.949 and who are really expansive 245 00:09:12.950 --> 00:09:15.169 thinkers who are 246 00:09:15.170 --> 00:09:16.969 saying these things about Will Cain. 247 00:09:16.970 --> 00:09:18.919 And so I just began to kind of 248 00:09:18.920 --> 00:09:20.809 read and, you know, more 249 00:09:20.810 --> 00:09:21.589 of her work. 250 00:09:21.590 --> 00:09:23.719 And I just got very excited 251 00:09:23.720 --> 00:09:25.669 by her writing and and its 252 00:09:25.670 --> 00:09:27.589 relevance to the present moment. 253 00:09:27.590 --> 00:09:30.139 And I think that was what it was was 254 00:09:30.140 --> 00:09:32.089 its relevance to now. 255 00:09:32.090 --> 00:09:33.889 Well, and it's fascinating that, you 256 00:09:33.890 --> 00:09:35.779 know, in your response that 257 00:09:35.780 --> 00:09:37.699 you call forward the 258 00:09:37.700 --> 00:09:40.099 kind of unlikely readers 259 00:09:40.100 --> 00:09:42.709 or suspects, you know, who would 260 00:09:42.710 --> 00:09:44.359 bring you to the working world and 261 00:09:44.360 --> 00:09:46.519 bring you closer to her writing. 262 00:09:46.520 --> 00:09:47.539 And there are a couple of things 263 00:09:47.540 --> 00:09:48.599 that, you know, came out. 264 00:09:48.600 --> 00:09:49.399 Your response. 265 00:09:49.400 --> 00:09:52.099 You you referenced, obviously, 266 00:09:52.100 --> 00:09:54.139 the notion of autofiction, 267 00:09:54.140 --> 00:09:55.969 but also that powerful desire 268 00:09:55.970 --> 00:09:57.769 to be a writer. 269 00:09:57.770 --> 00:09:59.659 And one of the things I 270 00:09:59.660 --> 00:10:01.879 think that the film brought 271 00:10:01.880 --> 00:10:03.169 to the fore was that, 272 00:10:04.550 --> 00:10:06.409 you know, Durkin's 273 00:10:06.410 --> 00:10:08.659 desire to write in a particular 274 00:10:08.660 --> 00:10:10.639 way and in such a way 275 00:10:10.640 --> 00:10:12.829 that would demand attention 276 00:10:12.830 --> 00:10:14.719 and that would induce 277 00:10:14.720 --> 00:10:16.969 notice and, I don't know, 278 00:10:16.970 --> 00:10:19.069 provocation, care, 279 00:10:19.070 --> 00:10:20.959 whatever it was, it would 280 00:10:20.960 --> 00:10:22.849 mean it could not escape, 281 00:10:22.850 --> 00:10:24.769 you know, attention and engagement 282 00:10:24.770 --> 00:10:26.119 in whatever way. 283 00:10:26.120 --> 00:10:27.499 And I'm wondering, you know, to what 284 00:10:27.500 --> 00:10:29.389 extent you might 285 00:10:29.390 --> 00:10:31.309 describe your own practice 286 00:10:31.310 --> 00:10:33.499 or process in creating this film 287 00:10:33.500 --> 00:10:35.449 and in working through Durkin's 288 00:10:35.450 --> 00:10:37.399 own desires and writerly desires 289 00:10:37.400 --> 00:10:38.299 in that way. 290 00:10:38.300 --> 00:10:39.679 To what extent did it affect your 291 00:10:39.680 --> 00:10:41.689 formal approach to 292 00:10:41.690 --> 00:10:43.039 this project? 293 00:10:43.040 --> 00:10:45.169 Right. How did that level 294 00:10:45.170 --> 00:10:47.059 of provocation 295 00:10:47.060 --> 00:10:49.429 make its way into, 296 00:10:49.430 --> 00:10:51.589 you know, your effort to 297 00:10:51.590 --> 00:10:53.629 represent to us this figure 298 00:10:53.630 --> 00:10:55.519 who many 299 00:10:55.520 --> 00:10:57.319 had taken for granted in certain 300 00:10:57.320 --> 00:10:58.129 scripts? 301 00:10:58.130 --> 00:10:59.130 Yeah. 302 00:11:02.000 --> 00:11:04.189 Well, I think, you know, 303 00:11:04.190 --> 00:11:06.199 it resonated for me the 304 00:11:06.200 --> 00:11:08.269 her risk taking. 305 00:11:08.270 --> 00:11:09.919 You know, she talks about 306 00:11:11.540 --> 00:11:13.699 wanting to be a writer who take 307 00:11:13.700 --> 00:11:16.399 takes risks, is original, 308 00:11:16.400 --> 00:11:18.229 you know, in 309 00:11:18.230 --> 00:11:19.969 the same way that she compares it to 310 00:11:19.970 --> 00:11:21.319 the music of Bach. 311 00:11:21.320 --> 00:11:22.699 And that's the kind of writer she 312 00:11:22.700 --> 00:11:23.689 wants to be. 313 00:11:23.690 --> 00:11:25.579 And she is a provocative writer and 314 00:11:25.580 --> 00:11:28.009 she was a provocative writer. 315 00:11:28.010 --> 00:11:30.529 And and 316 00:11:30.530 --> 00:11:32.359 she's got to her the her body of 317 00:11:32.360 --> 00:11:34.189 work is just really kind 318 00:11:34.190 --> 00:11:35.299 of you know, there's all kinds of 319 00:11:35.300 --> 00:11:37.009 experimental, formal approaches in 320 00:11:37.010 --> 00:11:38.869 different books. 321 00:11:38.870 --> 00:11:40.729 But I don't think I think 322 00:11:40.730 --> 00:11:42.139 it resonated for me. 323 00:11:43.580 --> 00:11:45.769 But my body of work 324 00:11:45.770 --> 00:11:47.689 from the get go has been about 325 00:11:47.690 --> 00:11:48.619 risk taking. 326 00:11:48.620 --> 00:11:50.449 I've taken creative risks every 327 00:11:50.450 --> 00:11:52.969 single film that I've made. 328 00:11:52.970 --> 00:11:55.069 And so for me, it wasn't 329 00:11:55.070 --> 00:11:57.079 anything like, okay, so 330 00:11:57.080 --> 00:11:58.939 she's taking risks in her writing. 331 00:11:58.940 --> 00:12:01.129 So I'm going to, you know, 332 00:12:01.130 --> 00:12:03.259 take risks with the for my formal 333 00:12:03.260 --> 00:12:04.129 approach. 334 00:12:04.130 --> 00:12:06.619 I think the approach 335 00:12:06.620 --> 00:12:09.229 to the story and the storytelling 336 00:12:09.230 --> 00:12:12.079 was that I wanted to use. 337 00:12:12.080 --> 00:12:13.309 You know, I didn't want it to be 338 00:12:13.310 --> 00:12:15.019 literal. I wasn't interested in 339 00:12:15.020 --> 00:12:18.589 making a kind of linear biography. 340 00:12:18.590 --> 00:12:21.079 I wanted her story 341 00:12:21.080 --> 00:12:22.939 and this single story 342 00:12:22.940 --> 00:12:25.339 to open out into larger territories, 343 00:12:25.340 --> 00:12:27.169 to open out into bigger stories, 344 00:12:27.170 --> 00:12:28.939 other stories, not bigger stories, 345 00:12:28.940 --> 00:12:31.009 but other stories so that, 346 00:12:31.010 --> 00:12:33.079 you know, this was not just her 347 00:12:33.080 --> 00:12:35.089 story, but her story in 348 00:12:35.090 --> 00:12:36.979 the ways in which it kind of 349 00:12:36.980 --> 00:12:38.959 actually is the story of many women 350 00:12:38.960 --> 00:12:41.149 globally, child sexual 351 00:12:41.150 --> 00:12:43.069 abuse, intimate partner 352 00:12:43.070 --> 00:12:45.439 violence, rape, all of these things 353 00:12:45.440 --> 00:12:47.929 that happened to Andrea 354 00:12:47.930 --> 00:12:50.089 as stories of many women 355 00:12:50.090 --> 00:12:51.079 around the world. 356 00:12:51.080 --> 00:12:53.209 And so I kind of didn't want to. 357 00:12:53.210 --> 00:12:55.279 I wanted to use her story, 358 00:12:55.280 --> 00:12:56.570 a single story, and 359 00:12:58.160 --> 00:12:59.839 broaden it out to speak to other 360 00:12:59.840 --> 00:13:01.459 women's stories, too. 361 00:13:01.460 --> 00:13:03.019 Well, that brings me to well, first 362 00:13:03.020 --> 00:13:04.759 of all, it's evocative of that line 363 00:13:04.760 --> 00:13:06.199 that struck me, just seeing it again 364 00:13:06.200 --> 00:13:08.509 this evening about how 365 00:13:08.510 --> 00:13:10.189 a nightmare doesn't unfold in a 366 00:13:10.190 --> 00:13:11.299 linear way. 367 00:13:11.300 --> 00:13:13.609 Right. In her own 368 00:13:13.610 --> 00:13:14.629 writing. 369 00:13:14.630 --> 00:13:15.649 But that brings me to a question, 370 00:13:15.650 --> 00:13:16.969 actually, that, you know, people 371 00:13:16.970 --> 00:13:18.739 asked me, knowing that I was going 372 00:13:18.740 --> 00:13:20.659 to speak to you about your 373 00:13:20.660 --> 00:13:22.219 film before I even had a chance to 374 00:13:22.220 --> 00:13:24.559 see it. And that is about 375 00:13:24.560 --> 00:13:26.899 the narrators, about the avatars 376 00:13:26.900 --> 00:13:28.879 who are a part of this 377 00:13:28.880 --> 00:13:30.859 process of telling Andrea's 378 00:13:30.860 --> 00:13:32.779 story across this 379 00:13:32.780 --> 00:13:35.509 sort of, I guess, non-linear 380 00:13:35.510 --> 00:13:36.769 timeline. 381 00:13:36.770 --> 00:13:38.389 And so I just wanted to ask about 382 00:13:38.390 --> 00:13:40.219 that particular choice about, you 383 00:13:40.220 --> 00:13:42.589 know, what drove 384 00:13:42.590 --> 00:13:43.590 that 385 00:13:44.900 --> 00:13:47.269 effort to put her words, 386 00:13:47.270 --> 00:13:48.559 which are very powerful 387 00:13:49.640 --> 00:13:51.379 and that which she speaks herself, 388 00:13:51.380 --> 00:13:53.629 but alongside others, speaking 389 00:13:53.630 --> 00:13:55.279 them about like figures, some 390 00:13:55.280 --> 00:13:57.169 recognizable others maybe less 391 00:13:57.170 --> 00:13:58.239 so. 392 00:13:58.240 --> 00:14:00.279 Or in niche circles. 393 00:14:00.280 --> 00:14:01.599 Can you talk a little bit about, you 394 00:14:01.600 --> 00:14:03.879 know, the different Andreas 395 00:14:03.880 --> 00:14:04.659 the proliferate? 396 00:14:04.660 --> 00:14:06.609 Andreas in this film? 397 00:14:08.470 --> 00:14:10.419 Yeah, I mean, I 398 00:14:10.420 --> 00:14:12.459 think my starting point was 399 00:14:12.460 --> 00:14:14.619 that because 400 00:14:14.620 --> 00:14:16.569 I wanted Andreas words 401 00:14:16.570 --> 00:14:18.469 to be the words that were spoken 402 00:14:18.470 --> 00:14:20.319 in the in the film, I 403 00:14:20.320 --> 00:14:22.569 was very clear 404 00:14:22.570 --> 00:14:24.789 in my directorial intent 405 00:14:24.790 --> 00:14:27.279 that I did not want to make 406 00:14:27.280 --> 00:14:29.259 a traditional documentary with 407 00:14:29.260 --> 00:14:31.239 talking heads and 408 00:14:31.240 --> 00:14:33.669 didactic kind of commentary. 409 00:14:33.670 --> 00:14:35.709 Who and walk in was. 410 00:14:35.710 --> 00:14:37.689 I really wanted to move away 411 00:14:37.690 --> 00:14:40.599 from that, to speak, 412 00:14:40.600 --> 00:14:42.879 to use her words 413 00:14:42.880 --> 00:14:44.859 and as a and 414 00:14:44.860 --> 00:14:46.809 for her to be the narrator of her 415 00:14:46.810 --> 00:14:48.039 own story. 416 00:14:48.040 --> 00:14:49.929 And my choice of sort 417 00:14:49.930 --> 00:14:52.059 of, you know, the actors was 418 00:14:52.060 --> 00:14:53.320 know it just was 419 00:14:54.430 --> 00:14:56.859 a part from Amandla Stenberg, 420 00:14:56.860 --> 00:14:58.839 who was brought to me by a casting 421 00:14:58.840 --> 00:14:59.840 director. 422 00:15:00.850 --> 00:15:02.889 Every other actor in in 423 00:15:02.890 --> 00:15:04.899 in the film was through a personal 424 00:15:04.900 --> 00:15:06.909 contact or through contact, through 425 00:15:06.910 --> 00:15:10.089 one of our EP's, Gloria Steinem, 426 00:15:10.090 --> 00:15:12.189 and all the women 427 00:15:12.190 --> 00:15:13.599 who are in the film or the 428 00:15:13.600 --> 00:15:14.979 actresses. 429 00:15:14.980 --> 00:15:17.019 Each and every one of them have 430 00:15:17.020 --> 00:15:18.909 said that they're very aligned 431 00:15:18.910 --> 00:15:20.679 with the issues and the themes of 432 00:15:20.680 --> 00:15:21.789 the film. 433 00:15:21.790 --> 00:15:23.559 They, not all of them knew how 434 00:15:23.560 --> 00:15:24.759 broken was. 435 00:15:24.760 --> 00:15:26.589 But given that the theme of 436 00:15:26.590 --> 00:15:28.599 the film is centering violence 437 00:15:28.600 --> 00:15:30.429 against women and 438 00:15:30.430 --> 00:15:32.349 revealing that and illuminating 439 00:15:32.350 --> 00:15:34.509 that and 440 00:15:34.510 --> 00:15:36.609 showing the outrage and 441 00:15:36.610 --> 00:15:38.709 and the anger that 442 00:15:38.710 --> 00:15:40.450 talk in hard of. 443 00:15:41.860 --> 00:15:44.349 All the actresses that we had 444 00:15:44.350 --> 00:15:47.049 felt that they personally 445 00:15:47.050 --> 00:15:48.489 were invested. 446 00:15:48.490 --> 00:15:50.349 So it wasn't a job for them. 447 00:15:50.350 --> 00:15:52.179 It was something that and it 448 00:15:52.180 --> 00:15:53.799 couldn't be a job for them because 449 00:15:53.800 --> 00:15:55.749 we paid them, you know, really basic 450 00:15:55.750 --> 00:15:58.149 minimum SAG-AFTRA rates. 451 00:15:58.150 --> 00:16:00.549 It's a very low budget film. 452 00:16:00.550 --> 00:16:02.649 So, you know, they had to have some 453 00:16:02.650 --> 00:16:04.449 kind of commitment to the actual 454 00:16:04.450 --> 00:16:06.279 film and what the film was trying 455 00:16:06.280 --> 00:16:07.209 to do. 456 00:16:07.210 --> 00:16:08.770 And I think that 457 00:16:09.820 --> 00:16:12.579 for me, it was just 458 00:16:12.580 --> 00:16:14.649 there was absolutely never 459 00:16:14.650 --> 00:16:16.749 an intention to 460 00:16:16.750 --> 00:16:18.669 do a literal, like 461 00:16:18.670 --> 00:16:20.919 find look alikes or 462 00:16:20.920 --> 00:16:23.199 anything like that, because, 463 00:16:23.200 --> 00:16:25.239 you know, going back to my 464 00:16:25.240 --> 00:16:27.339 earlier point, I kind of wanted 465 00:16:27.340 --> 00:16:28.629 to open it up. 466 00:16:28.630 --> 00:16:30.579 I wanted to open up her story 467 00:16:30.580 --> 00:16:32.439 to other stories, other women's 468 00:16:32.440 --> 00:16:33.539 stories. 469 00:16:33.540 --> 00:16:35.289 And and one of the things that I 470 00:16:35.290 --> 00:16:37.179 think I hadn't thought about, but 471 00:16:37.180 --> 00:16:38.830 that's sort of come up in 472 00:16:40.060 --> 00:16:42.099 sort of from feedback that we've 473 00:16:42.100 --> 00:16:44.259 had at different 474 00:16:44.260 --> 00:16:46.329 screenings, is that this point 475 00:16:46.330 --> 00:16:48.699 that somebody made, that 476 00:16:48.700 --> 00:16:51.669 is it that we 477 00:16:51.670 --> 00:16:52.990 as audiences 478 00:16:54.130 --> 00:16:56.199 look at and 479 00:16:56.200 --> 00:16:58.329 are able to enter into the stories 480 00:16:58.330 --> 00:17:01.209 of the violations of these women 481 00:17:01.210 --> 00:17:03.099 because they most of them come in 482 00:17:03.100 --> 00:17:05.559 more acceptable forms, 483 00:17:05.560 --> 00:17:07.899 body image, body forms 484 00:17:07.900 --> 00:17:09.909 than walk in herself. 485 00:17:09.910 --> 00:17:11.499 And I think that that was an 486 00:17:11.500 --> 00:17:13.358 interesting kind of insight 487 00:17:13.359 --> 00:17:15.338 that came as a consequence of that 488 00:17:15.339 --> 00:17:17.289 choice, but wasn't something that 489 00:17:17.290 --> 00:17:19.059 they intended. But I'm kind of I 490 00:17:19.060 --> 00:17:20.169 think it's interesting that that 491 00:17:20.170 --> 00:17:20.979 came up. 492 00:17:20.980 --> 00:17:21.789 You know. 493 00:17:21.790 --> 00:17:23.679 Yeah, it's where you 494 00:17:23.680 --> 00:17:25.088 land there with that answer, 495 00:17:25.089 --> 00:17:27.519 actually to me opens up another 496 00:17:27.520 --> 00:17:29.969 kind of question about working 497 00:17:29.970 --> 00:17:32.049 with the kind of figure that many 498 00:17:32.050 --> 00:17:33.339 people assume they know. 499 00:17:33.340 --> 00:17:34.839 And, you know, part of it is I think 500 00:17:34.840 --> 00:17:36.819 that, you know, as 501 00:17:36.820 --> 00:17:38.649 by creating these 502 00:17:38.650 --> 00:17:41.499 other narrators, you know, 503 00:17:41.500 --> 00:17:43.449 there is a way in which you 504 00:17:43.450 --> 00:17:45.399 familiarize Dworkin 505 00:17:45.400 --> 00:17:46.959 to people, right? Because I think, 506 00:17:46.960 --> 00:17:49.029 as you said, people come to work 507 00:17:49.030 --> 00:17:50.949 in already assuming they 508 00:17:50.950 --> 00:17:52.059 have some knowledge of her. 509 00:17:52.060 --> 00:17:54.039 And there's at least that's one 510 00:17:54.040 --> 00:17:55.989 sort of cinematic device 511 00:17:55.990 --> 00:17:57.609 that helps. Do you familiarized work 512 00:17:57.610 --> 00:17:59.469 in? I mean, I feel like 513 00:17:59.470 --> 00:18:00.729 that also resonates with what you 514 00:18:00.730 --> 00:18:01.929 said earlier about, you know, 515 00:18:01.930 --> 00:18:04.239 re-experiencing working through 516 00:18:04.240 --> 00:18:06.369 weirdly, the lens of some of these 517 00:18:06.370 --> 00:18:08.679 like male creative figures, 518 00:18:08.680 --> 00:18:10.959 like, you know, the critic Berger 519 00:18:10.960 --> 00:18:13.779 and also the 520 00:18:13.780 --> 00:18:14.979 Leonard Cohen, of course. 521 00:18:14.980 --> 00:18:16.029 Right. 522 00:18:16.030 --> 00:18:18.099 But that that brings me to, though, 523 00:18:18.100 --> 00:18:19.719 why one would want to do 524 00:18:19.720 --> 00:18:21.129 familiarized work in. 525 00:18:21.130 --> 00:18:23.109 And that is, of course, obviously 526 00:18:23.110 --> 00:18:25.179 the controversy that adheres to, 527 00:18:25.180 --> 00:18:27.849 you know, her anti-pornography 528 00:18:27.850 --> 00:18:29.769 stance versus, you know, in the kind 529 00:18:29.770 --> 00:18:31.599 of famous infamous 530 00:18:31.600 --> 00:18:33.489 sex wars, feminist sex 531 00:18:33.490 --> 00:18:35.439 wars of the eighties, 532 00:18:35.440 --> 00:18:36.339 etc.. 533 00:18:36.340 --> 00:18:38.379 And so I guess my 534 00:18:38.380 --> 00:18:40.329 question is, you know, 535 00:18:40.330 --> 00:18:43.309 what are the 2 to 536 00:18:43.310 --> 00:18:45.369 2 parts of it, actually? 537 00:18:45.370 --> 00:18:47.529 So the question is what 538 00:18:47.530 --> 00:18:49.689 in the contemporary you know, 539 00:18:49.690 --> 00:18:51.219 what in the contemporary moment do 540 00:18:51.220 --> 00:18:53.229 you think brings us back to the work 541 00:18:53.230 --> 00:18:55.749 and given 542 00:18:55.750 --> 00:18:58.809 like some of that pushing away 543 00:18:58.810 --> 00:19:00.699 as a result of the the 544 00:19:00.700 --> 00:19:02.739 kind of feminist debates 545 00:19:02.740 --> 00:19:05.139 about pornography, etc., 546 00:19:05.140 --> 00:19:07.599 why are we now in a historical 547 00:19:07.600 --> 00:19:09.699 moment that is 548 00:19:09.700 --> 00:19:12.219 reassessing the workings legacy? 549 00:19:12.220 --> 00:19:13.220 Mm hmm. 550 00:19:14.050 --> 00:19:15.879 Um, well, there's lots of things, 551 00:19:15.880 --> 00:19:16.959 and. 552 00:19:16.960 --> 00:19:18.819 I know there's a lot of sprawling 553 00:19:18.820 --> 00:19:20.649 set of things, but take which 554 00:19:20.650 --> 00:19:21.669 one you want to start with. 555 00:19:21.670 --> 00:19:22.670 Whichever one. 556 00:19:23.650 --> 00:19:25.389 Well, one of the things I would say 557 00:19:25.390 --> 00:19:26.890 is that not, 558 00:19:28.330 --> 00:19:30.639 you know, not to assume 559 00:19:30.640 --> 00:19:32.439 that all audiences come to the film 560 00:19:32.440 --> 00:19:34.059 knowing who Andrew Dworkin is. 561 00:19:35.230 --> 00:19:37.269 And when we premiered at 562 00:19:37.270 --> 00:19:39.189 Tribeca last year, 563 00:19:39.190 --> 00:19:40.809 you know, they were, of course, in 564 00:19:40.810 --> 00:19:42.759 the audience, some people who 565 00:19:42.760 --> 00:19:45.579 knew of Dworkin, who 566 00:19:45.580 --> 00:19:48.159 had engaged with her work, 567 00:19:48.160 --> 00:19:49.989 who were around at the time she 568 00:19:49.990 --> 00:19:51.699 was around, and then there was a 569 00:19:51.700 --> 00:19:53.919 whole swathe of younger people, 570 00:19:53.920 --> 00:19:55.779 young women particularly, 571 00:19:55.780 --> 00:19:57.729 who didn't really know 572 00:19:57.730 --> 00:19:59.199 anything about her, didn't know 573 00:19:59.200 --> 00:20:01.149 about the sex laws, didn't know, you 574 00:20:01.150 --> 00:20:03.159 know, who she was, or they 575 00:20:03.160 --> 00:20:04.179 knew something. 576 00:20:04.180 --> 00:20:06.370 But it had been kind of dismissive 577 00:20:07.660 --> 00:20:09.819 and, you know, it was kind 578 00:20:09.820 --> 00:20:11.979 of really eye opening when 579 00:20:11.980 --> 00:20:14.079 quite a few of these women came 580 00:20:14.080 --> 00:20:15.999 up to me afterwards and said, 581 00:20:16.000 --> 00:20:17.919 you know, why 582 00:20:17.920 --> 00:20:19.029 don't we know this 583 00:20:20.170 --> 00:20:21.429 feminist writer? 584 00:20:21.430 --> 00:20:23.709 Why will we told a different story 585 00:20:23.710 --> 00:20:24.549 about her? 586 00:20:24.550 --> 00:20:26.859 This story is a revelation. 587 00:20:27.910 --> 00:20:29.379 But also there were young women 588 00:20:29.380 --> 00:20:30.939 whose a couple of young women who 589 00:20:30.940 --> 00:20:32.469 came up to me and who said, You're 590 00:20:32.470 --> 00:20:34.029 telling my story. 591 00:20:34.030 --> 00:20:35.559 You've told me that I've never seen 592 00:20:35.560 --> 00:20:37.479 my story told in this way, 593 00:20:37.480 --> 00:20:39.369 and thank you for telling my story. 594 00:20:39.370 --> 00:20:41.039 So I think that. 595 00:20:41.040 --> 00:20:43.439 You know, my 596 00:20:43.440 --> 00:20:45.419 it it really kind of 597 00:20:45.420 --> 00:20:47.609 reinforced my 598 00:20:47.610 --> 00:20:50.789 intent, which was that 599 00:20:50.790 --> 00:20:52.859 I was not interested in 600 00:20:52.860 --> 00:20:55.379 going into a historical 601 00:20:55.380 --> 00:20:56.429 debate. 602 00:20:56.430 --> 00:20:58.709 I was much that was a feminist 603 00:20:58.710 --> 00:21:00.809 debate between Andrea Dworkin 604 00:21:00.810 --> 00:21:02.909 and pro sex and sex, 605 00:21:02.910 --> 00:21:04.109 all of those debates. 606 00:21:05.790 --> 00:21:07.499 I was really interested in making a 607 00:21:07.500 --> 00:21:09.869 film that would be useful 608 00:21:09.870 --> 00:21:12.329 for women today to 609 00:21:12.330 --> 00:21:14.699 talk about rage to, to 610 00:21:14.700 --> 00:21:16.559 kind of talk about violence against 611 00:21:16.560 --> 00:21:18.059 women. She 612 00:21:19.380 --> 00:21:21.839 was one of the first few feminist 613 00:21:21.840 --> 00:21:23.789 to write in a kind of very 614 00:21:23.790 --> 00:21:26.849 she eviscerated toxic patriarchy 615 00:21:26.850 --> 00:21:28.499 in her writing. 616 00:21:28.500 --> 00:21:31.259 And she spoke about 617 00:21:31.260 --> 00:21:33.149 battered women because she 618 00:21:33.150 --> 00:21:35.099 was a battered woman, as she called 619 00:21:35.100 --> 00:21:37.019 herself at the time. 620 00:21:37.020 --> 00:21:38.399 And she was one of the first women 621 00:21:38.400 --> 00:21:41.099 to actually break that taboo. 622 00:21:41.100 --> 00:21:42.180 And I think that, 623 00:21:43.200 --> 00:21:45.179 you know, it was much more 624 00:21:45.180 --> 00:21:47.819 for me, it's much more useful 625 00:21:47.820 --> 00:21:49.919 to her to make a film that 626 00:21:49.920 --> 00:21:52.289 is actually a tool for us 627 00:21:52.290 --> 00:21:54.059 in terms of thinking around these 628 00:21:54.060 --> 00:21:55.889 issues now 629 00:21:55.890 --> 00:21:57.239 and to bring it into the 630 00:21:57.240 --> 00:21:58.320 contemporary moment. 631 00:21:59.670 --> 00:22:01.709 Her outrage and 632 00:22:01.710 --> 00:22:03.779 her rage is something 633 00:22:03.780 --> 00:22:05.789 that not we haven't seen 634 00:22:05.790 --> 00:22:07.799 before and we 635 00:22:07.800 --> 00:22:09.419 haven't seen since. 636 00:22:09.420 --> 00:22:11.309 And it 637 00:22:11.310 --> 00:22:13.139 made me think, 638 00:22:13.140 --> 00:22:15.089 you know, something that kind of 639 00:22:15.090 --> 00:22:17.039 last year was with 640 00:22:17.040 --> 00:22:19.079 Arundhati Roy and she 641 00:22:19.080 --> 00:22:21.119 she she says something like, 642 00:22:21.120 --> 00:22:22.559 Let me remember, I think she said 643 00:22:22.560 --> 00:22:24.659 something like, How can they expect 644 00:22:24.660 --> 00:22:27.059 women to remain balanced 645 00:22:27.060 --> 00:22:29.579 in the face of such genocide 646 00:22:29.580 --> 00:22:31.139 that is happening to women all over 647 00:22:31.140 --> 00:22:32.140 the world? 648 00:22:33.450 --> 00:22:35.129 And I kind of think that that, you 649 00:22:35.130 --> 00:22:37.039 know, and it 650 00:22:37.040 --> 00:22:39.659 can didn't remain balanced. 651 00:22:39.660 --> 00:22:41.729 She, you know, provoked 652 00:22:41.730 --> 00:22:43.679 and she spoke the truth and 653 00:22:43.680 --> 00:22:44.699 she paid it. 654 00:22:44.700 --> 00:22:46.169 You know, she paid a high price for 655 00:22:46.170 --> 00:22:47.170 it. Really? 656 00:22:48.330 --> 00:22:49.739 Yeah. And you can and you can see 657 00:22:49.740 --> 00:22:51.629 that just even in the 658 00:22:51.630 --> 00:22:53.879 way she delivers, especially 659 00:22:53.880 --> 00:22:55.049 in the early nineties, those 660 00:22:55.050 --> 00:22:57.149 speeches, it's not 661 00:22:57.150 --> 00:22:58.649 obviously there's some element of 662 00:22:58.650 --> 00:23:00.539 performance to it, but it's not 663 00:23:00.540 --> 00:23:01.799 just performative, right? 664 00:23:01.800 --> 00:23:02.800 You know, it is 665 00:23:03.780 --> 00:23:05.669 you know, it's a unique ability 666 00:23:05.670 --> 00:23:07.529 to tap into 667 00:23:07.530 --> 00:23:09.899 the kind of how that that 668 00:23:09.900 --> 00:23:12.119 affect that emotion is, you know, 669 00:23:12.120 --> 00:23:14.069 always there at the surface. 670 00:23:14.070 --> 00:23:15.839 Yeah. And that's, you know, and I 671 00:23:15.840 --> 00:23:16.379 think that. 672 00:23:16.380 --> 00:23:18.229 She was a performer that I think 673 00:23:18.230 --> 00:23:20.279 she was truly a performer. 674 00:23:20.280 --> 00:23:22.019 She was like an extraordinary 675 00:23:22.020 --> 00:23:22.889 orator. 676 00:23:22.890 --> 00:23:24.779 And, you know, she she was, 677 00:23:24.780 --> 00:23:26.609 as Gloria Steinem has said, she was 678 00:23:26.610 --> 00:23:28.649 like the southern preacher, 679 00:23:28.650 --> 00:23:30.179 you know, preaching from the hills. 680 00:23:30.180 --> 00:23:32.579 And and I think she knew she was 681 00:23:32.580 --> 00:23:34.259 you know, she had the power. 682 00:23:34.260 --> 00:23:36.059 She was very compelling to listen 683 00:23:36.060 --> 00:23:37.409 to. 684 00:23:37.410 --> 00:23:39.299 That's why I love the line about, 685 00:23:39.300 --> 00:23:40.589 you know, someone told me I could be 686 00:23:40.590 --> 00:23:42.119 president of the United States. 687 00:23:42.120 --> 00:23:43.649 And we established that early on, 688 00:23:43.650 --> 00:23:45.239 that there is you know, there has to 689 00:23:45.240 --> 00:23:47.579 be some form of egoic 690 00:23:47.580 --> 00:23:49.469 investment that is that large, 691 00:23:49.470 --> 00:23:50.999 that can, you know, allow someone to 692 00:23:51.000 --> 00:23:53.789 be that kind of spokesperson, 693 00:23:53.790 --> 00:23:55.769 profit, etc., and 694 00:23:55.770 --> 00:23:56.819 to inhabit that role. 695 00:23:57.900 --> 00:23:59.729 Well, so, you know, one of the 696 00:23:59.730 --> 00:24:01.499 things that I sort of tried to ask 697 00:24:01.500 --> 00:24:02.969 you earlier a little bit was about, 698 00:24:02.970 --> 00:24:05.009 you know, different ways that 699 00:24:05.010 --> 00:24:07.529 plunging into this topic influenced 700 00:24:07.530 --> 00:24:09.899 maybe your approach to maybe 701 00:24:09.900 --> 00:24:11.669 film making or making this 702 00:24:11.670 --> 00:24:12.989 particular film. 703 00:24:12.990 --> 00:24:14.879 But I'm just curious about 704 00:24:14.880 --> 00:24:17.549 how you would situate this 705 00:24:17.550 --> 00:24:19.799 within your broader oeuvre, 706 00:24:19.800 --> 00:24:21.659 like esthetically 707 00:24:21.660 --> 00:24:23.160 as well as you know, 708 00:24:24.630 --> 00:24:25.559 formerly. 709 00:24:25.560 --> 00:24:26.560 Right. 710 00:24:27.630 --> 00:24:29.549 You know, does it is it how 711 00:24:29.550 --> 00:24:30.479 do you see it? 712 00:24:30.480 --> 00:24:32.519 Is it a pivot point in some 713 00:24:32.520 --> 00:24:33.449 way? Is it not? 714 00:24:33.450 --> 00:24:35.369 You know, what do you see its 715 00:24:35.370 --> 00:24:37.319 role amidst 716 00:24:37.320 --> 00:24:38.699 your other creations? 717 00:24:38.700 --> 00:24:40.589 And and, you know, is 718 00:24:40.590 --> 00:24:41.759 there something that you'll take 719 00:24:41.760 --> 00:24:43.409 away from this process that will go 720 00:24:43.410 --> 00:24:45.269 into, you know, the 721 00:24:45.270 --> 00:24:46.739 next? Because I know that you've 722 00:24:46.740 --> 00:24:48.659 always worked in hybrid forms and 723 00:24:48.660 --> 00:24:50.609 various ways, but this is 724 00:24:50.610 --> 00:24:52.049 obviously with each project it's 725 00:24:52.050 --> 00:24:53.939 different. But yeah, I invite you 726 00:24:53.940 --> 00:24:55.259 to just sort of talk a little bit 727 00:24:55.260 --> 00:24:57.239 about that and about your process. 728 00:24:58.850 --> 00:25:00.119 Um, yeah. 729 00:25:00.120 --> 00:25:02.249 I mean, you know, 730 00:25:02.250 --> 00:25:04.139 when I first started 731 00:25:04.140 --> 00:25:06.029 to think about my creative 732 00:25:06.030 --> 00:25:07.030 approach to this, 733 00:25:08.370 --> 00:25:10.499 you know, and I knew I read 734 00:25:10.500 --> 00:25:12.509 as much of Tolkien as I could. 735 00:25:12.510 --> 00:25:14.219 I read a lot of her interviews. 736 00:25:14.220 --> 00:25:15.719 I listened to a lot of her radio 737 00:25:15.720 --> 00:25:17.549 interviews. I watched some 738 00:25:17.550 --> 00:25:19.139 of the archival footage. 739 00:25:19.140 --> 00:25:20.969 And out of all of that, I 740 00:25:20.970 --> 00:25:22.109 wrote a screenplay. 741 00:25:22.110 --> 00:25:23.339 I wrote the script 742 00:25:25.110 --> 00:25:26.999 and we shot the 743 00:25:27.000 --> 00:25:28.259 dramatizations. 744 00:25:28.260 --> 00:25:30.149 And, you know, and I make the 745 00:25:30.150 --> 00:25:30.989 difference. 746 00:25:30.990 --> 00:25:33.059 I make a difference between 747 00:25:33.060 --> 00:25:34.019 saying that these are 748 00:25:34.020 --> 00:25:35.639 dramatizations, they're not 749 00:25:35.640 --> 00:25:36.989 reenactments. 750 00:25:36.990 --> 00:25:38.879 And for me, the differences with the 751 00:25:38.880 --> 00:25:41.029 dramatizations we. 752 00:25:41.030 --> 00:25:43.159 In the present moment. 753 00:25:43.160 --> 00:25:45.049 Reenactments are about being in the 754 00:25:45.050 --> 00:25:46.939 past, and I wanted to 755 00:25:46.940 --> 00:25:48.799 ensure that the dramatizations 756 00:25:48.800 --> 00:25:50.809 brought you into the present moment. 757 00:25:52.100 --> 00:25:54.259 And that, you know, I also, 758 00:25:54.260 --> 00:25:55.909 with the dramatizations, wanted to 759 00:25:55.910 --> 00:25:57.979 kind of hold on 760 00:25:57.980 --> 00:25:59.929 certain moments with with 761 00:25:59.930 --> 00:26:01.939 the actresses where 762 00:26:01.940 --> 00:26:03.799 they are breaking the 763 00:26:03.800 --> 00:26:05.809 fourth wall and looking 764 00:26:05.810 --> 00:26:08.029 back at us as the audience. 765 00:26:08.030 --> 00:26:09.919 And, you know, there's a way in 766 00:26:09.920 --> 00:26:11.749 which I wanted the frame to just 767 00:26:11.750 --> 00:26:13.849 kind of disappear that we are in 768 00:26:13.850 --> 00:26:15.799 there. We're not there as 769 00:26:15.800 --> 00:26:16.699 voyeurs. 770 00:26:16.700 --> 00:26:18.230 This is not spectacle. 771 00:26:19.850 --> 00:26:22.339 I'm actually asking audiences 772 00:26:22.340 --> 00:26:24.349 what is our that? 773 00:26:24.350 --> 00:26:27.439 These are shots that are a mirror 774 00:26:27.440 --> 00:26:29.929 for us so that we 775 00:26:29.930 --> 00:26:31.339 have to ask ourselves. 776 00:26:32.370 --> 00:26:34.889 How can we allow this to continue? 777 00:26:34.890 --> 00:26:36.719 How can we allow these kinds of 778 00:26:36.720 --> 00:26:38.729 assaults to continue that 779 00:26:38.730 --> 00:26:40.709 we are all implicated in it. 780 00:26:41.760 --> 00:26:43.709 And so that was a slight 781 00:26:43.710 --> 00:26:44.669 digression, too. 782 00:26:44.670 --> 00:26:46.649 But in terms of the kind 783 00:26:46.650 --> 00:26:47.999 of the formal approach. 784 00:26:48.000 --> 00:26:50.249 So I wrote the screenplay 785 00:26:50.250 --> 00:26:52.079 and we shot a 786 00:26:52.080 --> 00:26:54.329 lot of it in sort of piecemeal. 787 00:26:54.330 --> 00:26:56.189 As the funding came, we shot 788 00:26:56.190 --> 00:26:58.079 one chapter, then, 789 00:26:58.080 --> 00:26:59.819 you know, waited a year to get some 790 00:26:59.820 --> 00:27:00.659 more funding. 791 00:27:00.660 --> 00:27:03.239 And so it was kind of frustrating 792 00:27:03.240 --> 00:27:04.859 to work in that way, but it was kind 793 00:27:04.860 --> 00:27:07.139 of forced on us because of resources 794 00:27:07.140 --> 00:27:08.369 or lack of resources. 795 00:27:10.470 --> 00:27:12.569 And in a way that was kind 796 00:27:12.570 --> 00:27:14.099 of worked out well because I was 797 00:27:14.100 --> 00:27:15.989 able to sit with what 798 00:27:15.990 --> 00:27:18.269 I had shot, bring in the archival 799 00:27:18.270 --> 00:27:20.279 material and really 800 00:27:20.280 --> 00:27:22.169 experiment with the editing 801 00:27:22.170 --> 00:27:24.329 and how it would fit together. 802 00:27:24.330 --> 00:27:25.649 And I have to say, there were 803 00:27:25.650 --> 00:27:27.539 moments when I thought, Oh my God, 804 00:27:27.540 --> 00:27:29.609 this is what have I done? 805 00:27:29.610 --> 00:27:31.199 This is not going to work. 806 00:27:31.200 --> 00:27:32.709 This is just not going to work. 807 00:27:32.710 --> 00:27:34.019 This is like crazy. 808 00:27:34.020 --> 00:27:35.849 Why did I even think this could 809 00:27:35.850 --> 00:27:37.019 actually work? 810 00:27:37.020 --> 00:27:39.179 You know, and I did not want, 811 00:27:39.180 --> 00:27:40.799 you know, this sort of checkerboard 812 00:27:40.800 --> 00:27:42.749 thing of dramatization, all 813 00:27:42.750 --> 00:27:44.279 kind of dramatization, all kind of I 814 00:27:44.280 --> 00:27:46.199 kind of wanted a melding of 815 00:27:46.200 --> 00:27:47.730 all those different elements. 816 00:27:49.800 --> 00:27:51.809 And I think that 817 00:27:51.810 --> 00:27:53.249 it was only after we shot two 818 00:27:53.250 --> 00:27:55.349 chapters, the Amandla and Soko 819 00:27:55.350 --> 00:27:57.269 chapters, and that was and we 820 00:27:57.270 --> 00:27:58.949 needed to do a proof of concept. 821 00:27:58.950 --> 00:28:00.960 And I edited half an hour of it 822 00:28:02.070 --> 00:28:04.049 that I thought, okay, I think 823 00:28:04.050 --> 00:28:05.519 I could make this work. 824 00:28:05.520 --> 00:28:07.439 But it was it was really 825 00:28:07.440 --> 00:28:09.029 nerve wracking and it. 826 00:28:09.030 --> 00:28:11.129 But, you know, I think for 827 00:28:11.130 --> 00:28:13.529 me, as a filmmaker, as an artist, 828 00:28:13.530 --> 00:28:16.139 if you're not taking a risk, 829 00:28:16.140 --> 00:28:18.629 then you know, what's the point? 830 00:28:18.630 --> 00:28:20.699 You have I mean, for me, it's really 831 00:28:20.700 --> 00:28:22.619 important to take creative risks 832 00:28:22.620 --> 00:28:24.569 and really push my own boundaries 833 00:28:24.570 --> 00:28:26.399 and push my my kind 834 00:28:26.400 --> 00:28:28.709 of comfort zone and say, 835 00:28:28.710 --> 00:28:30.209 because it would have been easy to 836 00:28:30.210 --> 00:28:32.189 do, you know, so 837 00:28:32.190 --> 00:28:34.109 much easier to do a conventional 838 00:28:34.110 --> 00:28:35.249 kind of biopic. 839 00:28:35.250 --> 00:28:37.049 But I just didn't want to do that. 840 00:28:38.310 --> 00:28:40.619 Yeah, And I do think that 841 00:28:40.620 --> 00:28:42.359 that what you were calling the 842 00:28:42.360 --> 00:28:44.819 checkerboard definitely, I mean, 843 00:28:44.820 --> 00:28:46.469 did not happen. And especially like 844 00:28:46.470 --> 00:28:47.999 having an opportunity to watch it on 845 00:28:48.000 --> 00:28:49.829 the big screen tonight, I'd only 846 00:28:49.830 --> 00:28:51.659 been able to see it, you know, 847 00:28:51.660 --> 00:28:53.579 at home before this, you 848 00:28:53.580 --> 00:28:55.649 know, premiere in Los Angeles. 849 00:28:55.650 --> 00:28:57.569 You realize that that 850 00:28:57.570 --> 00:28:59.639 seamlessness, that enmeshment 851 00:28:59.640 --> 00:29:01.739 comes through so 852 00:29:01.740 --> 00:29:04.019 well in, you know, 853 00:29:04.020 --> 00:29:06.299 in the film and you do become 854 00:29:06.300 --> 00:29:08.159 lost in it or you do enter 855 00:29:08.160 --> 00:29:09.270 its world instead of 856 00:29:10.440 --> 00:29:12.899 being simply a bystander. 857 00:29:12.900 --> 00:29:13.889 Right. Absolutely. 858 00:29:13.890 --> 00:29:15.689 I wanted it to be an immersive 859 00:29:15.690 --> 00:29:17.509 experience 860 00:29:17.510 --> 00:29:19.529 and for it not to be something 861 00:29:19.530 --> 00:29:20.939 that we are like watching as 862 00:29:20.940 --> 00:29:22.859 observers, but to that's kind of 863 00:29:22.860 --> 00:29:25.559 becomes a subjective experience. 864 00:29:25.560 --> 00:29:27.389 So that was really important to 865 00:29:27.390 --> 00:29:29.429 me. And, you know, 866 00:29:29.430 --> 00:29:31.289 I think the sound design, 867 00:29:31.290 --> 00:29:33.239 the the score, everything 868 00:29:33.240 --> 00:29:35.279 kind of helped in creating 869 00:29:35.280 --> 00:29:36.690 that kind of impulsiveness. 870 00:29:39.350 --> 00:29:41.209 Well, I think that we are right at 871 00:29:41.210 --> 00:29:43.069 the point or very near the point 872 00:29:43.070 --> 00:29:44.070 where we 873 00:29:45.680 --> 00:29:47.389 should open the floor up to some 874 00:29:47.390 --> 00:29:48.919 questions from the audience, because 875 00:29:48.920 --> 00:29:50.089 I'm sure that there are folks who 876 00:29:50.090 --> 00:29:51.410 have a lot of curiosities 877 00:29:52.730 --> 00:29:53.730 as well. 878 00:29:54.590 --> 00:29:57.349 So I believe the other 879 00:29:57.350 --> 00:29:59.239 ushers who have microphones. 880 00:30:00.850 --> 00:30:02.739 There are several 881 00:30:02.740 --> 00:30:03.740 factors. 882 00:30:08.490 --> 00:30:10.289 Basically. 883 00:30:10.290 --> 00:30:11.369 I'm just saying. 884 00:30:12.440 --> 00:30:15.139 You really 885 00:30:15.140 --> 00:30:17.119 made something happen 886 00:30:17.120 --> 00:30:19.039 that I had no idea what 887 00:30:19.040 --> 00:30:20.419 this was going to be about when I 888 00:30:20.420 --> 00:30:21.420 came. 889 00:30:21.920 --> 00:30:24.709 And you made something happen across 890 00:30:24.710 --> 00:30:27.469 for all the world's women, 891 00:30:27.470 --> 00:30:29.449 their voices in such 892 00:30:29.450 --> 00:30:31.309 a way that that's 893 00:30:31.310 --> 00:30:32.479 how it came across. 894 00:30:32.480 --> 00:30:34.549 Not just the personal author's 895 00:30:34.550 --> 00:30:37.489 voice or any of that, like you said. 896 00:30:37.490 --> 00:30:39.469 And that right there says 897 00:30:39.470 --> 00:30:41.929 a lot about human rights. 898 00:30:41.930 --> 00:30:44.089 And you had that human 899 00:30:44.090 --> 00:30:46.039 right, which is all of us men 900 00:30:46.040 --> 00:30:47.599 or women. 901 00:30:47.600 --> 00:30:49.459 The women have 902 00:30:49.460 --> 00:30:50.460 every much. 903 00:30:51.410 --> 00:30:53.659 The power to give consent to any 904 00:30:53.660 --> 00:30:55.879 actions by men. 905 00:30:55.880 --> 00:30:57.889 So I'm 74 years old, 906 00:30:57.890 --> 00:30:59.149 and believe me, I've seen a lot of 907 00:30:59.150 --> 00:31:01.129 this that you're talking 908 00:31:01.130 --> 00:31:01.939 about. 909 00:31:01.940 --> 00:31:03.589 And I just wanted to congratulate 910 00:31:03.590 --> 00:31:06.229 you on what a wonderful job you did. 911 00:31:06.230 --> 00:31:06.829 Thank you. 912 00:31:06.830 --> 00:31:07.830 Thank you. 913 00:31:08.900 --> 00:31:09.900 Yeah. 914 00:31:19.660 --> 00:31:21.009 Extraordinary film. 915 00:31:21.010 --> 00:31:23.439 Just totally loved it. 916 00:31:23.440 --> 00:31:25.269 I wanted to ask you about the 917 00:31:25.270 --> 00:31:27.159 process of gathering 918 00:31:27.160 --> 00:31:29.049 the the 919 00:31:29.050 --> 00:31:31.809 archival and contemporary 920 00:31:31.810 --> 00:31:33.819 activism that we 921 00:31:33.820 --> 00:31:34.659 saw with women. 922 00:31:34.660 --> 00:31:36.519 I was we were thrilled to see in 923 00:31:36.520 --> 00:31:38.019 Mourning and Rage, which was 924 00:31:38.020 --> 00:31:40.329 actually something we participated 925 00:31:40.330 --> 00:31:41.829 in in the seventies. 926 00:31:41.830 --> 00:31:43.239 And we're very familiar with that 927 00:31:43.240 --> 00:31:44.739 footage. We're working with it on 928 00:31:44.740 --> 00:31:46.239 our own film right now. 929 00:31:46.240 --> 00:31:48.189 But to see that in and 930 00:31:48.190 --> 00:31:50.229 other pieces by women around 931 00:31:50.230 --> 00:31:52.089 the world was just I love 932 00:31:52.090 --> 00:31:53.229 that. And can you talk about the 933 00:31:53.230 --> 00:31:54.909 process of gathering that and how 934 00:31:54.910 --> 00:31:56.679 you found it and how you decided 935 00:31:56.680 --> 00:31:58.359 what to use? 936 00:31:58.360 --> 00:31:59.360 Yeah. 937 00:32:00.580 --> 00:32:02.289 Wow. So you were involved with the 938 00:32:02.290 --> 00:32:04.869 rage and mourning the extraordinary 939 00:32:04.870 --> 00:32:06.819 footage. And Suzanne Lacy 940 00:32:06.820 --> 00:32:08.949 was really generous in 941 00:32:08.950 --> 00:32:11.139 allowing me to use it in this film. 942 00:32:13.300 --> 00:32:15.429 Part of my kind of intention was 943 00:32:15.430 --> 00:32:17.649 to really also show 944 00:32:17.650 --> 00:32:20.019 the arc of women 945 00:32:20.020 --> 00:32:22.569 activists and artists 946 00:32:22.570 --> 00:32:25.119 who have created work 947 00:32:25.120 --> 00:32:27.099 that actually deals with this 948 00:32:27.100 --> 00:32:29.079 theme of violence against women 949 00:32:29.080 --> 00:32:31.059 and both contemporary and 950 00:32:31.060 --> 00:32:32.979 historical, so that, you know, to 951 00:32:32.980 --> 00:32:35.109 trace the arc 952 00:32:35.110 --> 00:32:38.079 of feminist protest 953 00:32:38.080 --> 00:32:40.180 both on kind of, you know, through 954 00:32:41.290 --> 00:32:43.359 individual art, but also 955 00:32:43.360 --> 00:32:45.460 collectives as collectives of women 956 00:32:47.110 --> 00:32:49.089 and, you know, 957 00:32:49.090 --> 00:32:50.979 great mourning and rage was that was 958 00:32:50.980 --> 00:32:53.829 one of them. The Argentinean footage 959 00:32:53.830 --> 00:32:56.019 was just extraordinary. 960 00:32:56.020 --> 00:32:57.099 And you know, 961 00:32:58.330 --> 00:33:00.279 that I sort of felt 962 00:33:00.280 --> 00:33:02.049 when I when we found it, when 963 00:33:02.050 --> 00:33:03.819 Shaheen found that and I looked at 964 00:33:03.820 --> 00:33:05.889 it and started working in the edit 965 00:33:05.890 --> 00:33:06.890 with it, 966 00:33:07.960 --> 00:33:10.239 it sort of really to me, 967 00:33:10.240 --> 00:33:12.849 it was completely evocative 968 00:33:12.850 --> 00:33:15.429 of what Andrea 969 00:33:15.430 --> 00:33:17.289 Hawkins words were kind of, 970 00:33:17.290 --> 00:33:18.910 you know, So they really 971 00:33:20.200 --> 00:33:22.299 went so smoothly 972 00:33:22.300 --> 00:33:24.279 together and 973 00:33:24.280 --> 00:33:26.379 it was really kind of thinking 974 00:33:26.380 --> 00:33:29.319 about how 975 00:33:29.320 --> 00:33:31.389 to I mean, I was also thinking 976 00:33:31.390 --> 00:33:33.369 about artists like Anna Mandetta, 977 00:33:33.370 --> 00:33:35.169 and, you know, I wanted to use some 978 00:33:35.170 --> 00:33:36.489 of her work, but we didn't have the 979 00:33:36.490 --> 00:33:39.009 money to, you know, use it, 980 00:33:39.010 --> 00:33:41.049 but that there have been so many 981 00:33:41.050 --> 00:33:43.420 women artists who have 982 00:33:45.550 --> 00:33:47.830 highlighted and illuminated 983 00:33:48.970 --> 00:33:51.129 questions around women's sovereignty 984 00:33:51.130 --> 00:33:52.959 over their own bodies 985 00:33:52.960 --> 00:33:55.239 and and the kind of violations 986 00:33:55.240 --> 00:33:56.829 women's bodies have kind of 987 00:33:56.830 --> 00:33:59.079 undergone through patriarchal 988 00:33:59.080 --> 00:34:00.520 control, through misogyny. 989 00:34:02.110 --> 00:34:04.059 And I, I wanted to 990 00:34:04.060 --> 00:34:05.229 say that this is 991 00:34:06.280 --> 00:34:08.349 Andrew was just one was 992 00:34:08.350 --> 00:34:09.549 one person. 993 00:34:09.550 --> 00:34:10.928 But there were all these other 994 00:34:10.929 --> 00:34:12.819 women, too, who were protesting in 995 00:34:12.820 --> 00:34:14.169 their own different ways. 996 00:34:16.300 --> 00:34:17.559 What film are you making? 997 00:34:19.389 --> 00:34:21.158 It's called Acting Like Women, and 998 00:34:21.159 --> 00:34:22.159 it's about. 999 00:34:25.480 --> 00:34:26.480 Great. 1000 00:34:34.190 --> 00:34:35.359 Thank you. 1001 00:34:35.360 --> 00:34:37.428 I really enjoyed 1002 00:34:37.429 --> 00:34:39.229 the footage of Andrea's personal 1003 00:34:39.230 --> 00:34:41.509 life. And I know you didn't want to 1004 00:34:41.510 --> 00:34:43.759 dig too deep into the biography. 1005 00:34:43.760 --> 00:34:45.259 But I also know she identified as a 1006 00:34:45.260 --> 00:34:47.359 lesbian. Is there a reason that kind 1007 00:34:47.360 --> 00:34:49.129 of identity was left out of this 1008 00:34:49.130 --> 00:34:50.130 movie? 1009 00:34:51.920 --> 00:34:54.109 No. No, there's no reason. 1010 00:34:54.110 --> 00:34:56.419 I think that what 1011 00:34:56.420 --> 00:34:58.459 I understood was that 1012 00:34:58.460 --> 00:35:00.739 she never had she identified 1013 00:35:00.740 --> 00:35:02.329 as a lesbian as a political 1014 00:35:02.330 --> 00:35:04.379 definition, because she was 1015 00:35:04.380 --> 00:35:06.379 she took on that 1016 00:35:06.380 --> 00:35:08.659 identity in 1017 00:35:08.660 --> 00:35:10.489 not in defense of in support of 1018 00:35:10.490 --> 00:35:11.490 lesbians, 1019 00:35:12.500 --> 00:35:14.299 but in her personal life. 1020 00:35:14.300 --> 00:35:16.639 She was completely 1021 00:35:16.640 --> 00:35:18.409 and totally devoted to John. 1022 00:35:18.410 --> 00:35:20.359 She spent 30 years of her life 1023 00:35:20.360 --> 00:35:21.229 with him. 1024 00:35:21.230 --> 00:35:23.059 Right. Right up until the end of her 1025 00:35:23.060 --> 00:35:24.829 life. And as you could see, she 1026 00:35:24.830 --> 00:35:26.689 speaks about him 1027 00:35:26.690 --> 00:35:28.309 as the love of her life. 1028 00:35:28.310 --> 00:35:30.289 So I think that 1029 00:35:30.290 --> 00:35:32.899 for me, that was kind of you know, 1030 00:35:32.900 --> 00:35:34.639 it was there. That was the fact 1031 00:35:36.200 --> 00:35:38.059 and her political 1032 00:35:38.060 --> 00:35:39.979 allegiance to lesbians by 1033 00:35:39.980 --> 00:35:41.869 calling herself lesbian at 1034 00:35:41.870 --> 00:35:43.669 a very particular moment in time, 1035 00:35:43.670 --> 00:35:45.109 because she didn't do that 1036 00:35:45.110 --> 00:35:46.429 throughout her life. 1037 00:35:46.430 --> 00:35:47.989 She only did that one particular 1038 00:35:47.990 --> 00:35:49.009 moment. 1039 00:35:49.010 --> 00:35:51.439 To me, that was not 1040 00:35:51.440 --> 00:35:53.269 an important part of her narrative. 1041 00:35:58.200 --> 00:36:00.070 Uh uh, 1042 00:36:02.970 --> 00:36:04.829 there's always the phrase 1043 00:36:04.830 --> 00:36:06.929 of, you know, feminism is 1044 00:36:06.930 --> 00:36:08.699 the politics. Lesbianism is the 1045 00:36:08.700 --> 00:36:09.899 practice, right? So I think that 1046 00:36:09.900 --> 00:36:11.699 that's sort of that was the follow 1047 00:36:11.700 --> 00:36:14.369 through in that identification 1048 00:36:14.370 --> 00:36:15.719 of that particular era. 1049 00:36:15.720 --> 00:36:16.720 Yeah. 1050 00:36:17.340 --> 00:36:19.289 Even if, you know, the 1051 00:36:19.290 --> 00:36:21.209 practice was 1052 00:36:21.210 --> 00:36:23.309 still just a political affiliation, 1053 00:36:23.310 --> 00:36:24.310 Right. Yeah. 1054 00:36:25.860 --> 00:36:26.860 Yeah. 1055 00:36:27.870 --> 00:36:28.949 I think that's a good question to 1056 00:36:28.950 --> 00:36:30.959 ask at every 1057 00:36:30.960 --> 00:36:31.559 screening. 1058 00:36:31.560 --> 00:36:32.539 Yeah. 1059 00:36:32.540 --> 00:36:33.409 Yeah. 1060 00:36:33.410 --> 00:36:34.449 Yeah, yeah. 1061 00:36:37.340 --> 00:36:37.849 Okay. 1062 00:36:37.850 --> 00:36:39.289 Well, but but, I mean, you know, it 1063 00:36:39.290 --> 00:36:41.569 also, I guess just 1064 00:36:41.570 --> 00:36:43.249 in case people are still percolating 1065 00:36:43.250 --> 00:36:44.479 a little bit on their questions, I 1066 00:36:44.480 --> 00:36:45.739 can throw in a little bit of a 1067 00:36:45.740 --> 00:36:47.659 follow up around that 1068 00:36:47.660 --> 00:36:49.099 and around the. 1069 00:36:50.480 --> 00:36:52.069 You know, the whole movie stuff. 1070 00:36:52.070 --> 00:36:53.329 I mean, you know, it's I know that 1071 00:36:53.330 --> 00:36:54.559 that's very kind of like a basic 1072 00:36:54.560 --> 00:36:55.759 question to ask, but it's sort of 1073 00:36:55.760 --> 00:36:56.989 like, well, you know, 1074 00:36:58.310 --> 00:37:00.049 how did you do? 1075 00:37:00.050 --> 00:37:01.519 Like, you know, in what ways did you 1076 00:37:01.520 --> 00:37:02.539 access it? 1077 00:37:02.540 --> 00:37:03.559 How did you access it? 1078 00:37:03.560 --> 00:37:05.689 And in what ways did you decide 1079 00:37:05.690 --> 00:37:06.919 or like make the decision on how 1080 00:37:06.920 --> 00:37:08.539 much of it to incorporate? 1081 00:37:08.540 --> 00:37:09.649 Right. Because I think that it is 1082 00:37:09.650 --> 00:37:11.899 really stunning to have that 1083 00:37:11.900 --> 00:37:13.859 archive. You know, now everybody 1084 00:37:13.860 --> 00:37:15.949 everybody's you know, birds 1085 00:37:15.950 --> 00:37:17.809 are archived on Instagram or 1086 00:37:17.810 --> 00:37:18.799 what have you, right? 1087 00:37:18.800 --> 00:37:20.389 Every step and every moment of 1088 00:37:20.390 --> 00:37:21.859 whatever you had for lunch, etc.. 1089 00:37:21.860 --> 00:37:23.989 And but but obviously with figures 1090 00:37:23.990 --> 00:37:25.729 who, you know, had most of their 1091 00:37:25.730 --> 00:37:27.649 lives in the 20th century, 1092 00:37:27.650 --> 00:37:28.879 it's it's different. 1093 00:37:28.880 --> 00:37:31.039 Yeah. No, I mean, that footage is 1094 00:37:31.040 --> 00:37:31.939 fantastic. 1095 00:37:31.940 --> 00:37:33.589 And there was about half a half an 1096 00:37:33.590 --> 00:37:35.509 hour of that footage. 1097 00:37:35.510 --> 00:37:37.189 It's never been used before. 1098 00:37:38.930 --> 00:37:41.089 I mean, how fabulous 1099 00:37:41.090 --> 00:37:43.129 that Andre had an uncle who 1100 00:37:43.130 --> 00:37:45.349 loved Super eight cameras 1101 00:37:45.350 --> 00:37:47.449 and he would he recorded 1102 00:37:47.450 --> 00:37:49.279 a lot of the kind of family 1103 00:37:49.280 --> 00:37:51.139 gatherings over the years. 1104 00:37:51.140 --> 00:37:53.209 And so John Stoltenberg, 1105 00:37:53.210 --> 00:37:55.159 who holds the rights to Andrew's 1106 00:37:55.160 --> 00:37:56.160 estate, 1107 00:37:57.350 --> 00:37:58.759 you know, showed it to me. 1108 00:37:58.760 --> 00:38:00.919 And I was like, I have to use 1109 00:38:00.920 --> 00:38:03.349 this because it's so important. 1110 00:38:03.350 --> 00:38:05.389 I felt it was just really important 1111 00:38:05.390 --> 00:38:06.390 to see 1112 00:38:07.490 --> 00:38:09.529 the Andrea, the baby, Andrea, 1113 00:38:09.530 --> 00:38:10.789 the teenage Andrea. 1114 00:38:10.790 --> 00:38:12.049 I mean, it stops when she's a 1115 00:38:12.050 --> 00:38:13.969 teenager, but to kind of 1116 00:38:13.970 --> 00:38:15.919 really locate 1117 00:38:15.920 --> 00:38:17.959 her within her family and her 1118 00:38:17.960 --> 00:38:20.269 her own particular extended family 1119 00:38:21.830 --> 00:38:23.839 and just just sort of 1120 00:38:24.920 --> 00:38:27.199 she was so deeply loved 1121 00:38:27.200 --> 00:38:29.209 by her father and her mother, 1122 00:38:29.210 --> 00:38:30.559 but really by her father. 1123 00:38:30.560 --> 00:38:31.969 She was extremely close to her 1124 00:38:31.970 --> 00:38:33.349 father. 1125 00:38:33.350 --> 00:38:35.449 And I think the texture of that, 1126 00:38:35.450 --> 00:38:38.149 those the the footage 1127 00:38:38.150 --> 00:38:40.669 is just brings alive 1128 00:38:40.670 --> 00:38:42.829 and and it's about 1129 00:38:42.830 --> 00:38:44.989 this. The Andrew Walk people 1130 00:38:44.990 --> 00:38:47.059 knew later on 1131 00:38:47.060 --> 00:38:49.519 this was the Andrew Dworkin who was 1132 00:38:49.520 --> 00:38:50.839 this is where she started. 1133 00:38:50.840 --> 00:38:52.369 This is who she was. 1134 00:38:52.370 --> 00:38:54.529 And I think part of it 1135 00:38:54.530 --> 00:38:56.419 without I hadn't realized this, 1136 00:38:56.420 --> 00:38:58.519 but I think part of it, as we 1137 00:38:58.520 --> 00:39:00.679 go through the film, we see 1138 00:39:00.680 --> 00:39:02.839 the way in which her body changes 1139 00:39:02.840 --> 00:39:03.840 over time, 1140 00:39:05.030 --> 00:39:07.159 and she really 1141 00:39:07.160 --> 00:39:08.989 took on the brunt 1142 00:39:08.990 --> 00:39:11.149 of a lot of the attacks on her 1143 00:39:11.150 --> 00:39:13.099 and took 1144 00:39:13.100 --> 00:39:14.989 it on so that her body 1145 00:39:14.990 --> 00:39:16.280 became her armor 1146 00:39:17.390 --> 00:39:19.399 and also, you know, 1147 00:39:19.400 --> 00:39:21.259 her experience 1148 00:39:21.260 --> 00:39:23.599 of sexual abuse 1149 00:39:23.600 --> 00:39:25.699 or many women 1150 00:39:25.700 --> 00:39:27.979 who, you know, and this is not a 1151 00:39:27.980 --> 00:39:30.289 this of speaking to, you know, 1152 00:39:30.290 --> 00:39:32.029 therapists and psychologists. 1153 00:39:32.030 --> 00:39:34.159 So many women who have 1154 00:39:34.160 --> 00:39:37.429 been sexually abused do 1155 00:39:37.430 --> 00:39:39.289 put on weight as a 1156 00:39:39.290 --> 00:39:41.299 way to create an arm for 1157 00:39:41.300 --> 00:39:42.229 themselves. 1158 00:39:42.230 --> 00:39:44.119 And I think that, you know, one of 1159 00:39:44.120 --> 00:39:45.979 the things that I often get asked 1160 00:39:45.980 --> 00:39:48.079 is, well, why isn't there anything 1161 00:39:48.080 --> 00:39:50.029 in the film about her 1162 00:39:50.030 --> 00:39:51.409 size and her weight? 1163 00:39:51.410 --> 00:39:53.149 And and I was like, But that's just 1164 00:39:53.150 --> 00:39:54.679 so obvious. It's there. 1165 00:39:54.680 --> 00:39:56.869 You know, we see her. 1166 00:39:56.870 --> 00:39:58.100 And so 1167 00:40:00.110 --> 00:40:01.999 what's the why make 1168 00:40:02.000 --> 00:40:03.000 it an issue? 1169 00:40:04.760 --> 00:40:06.679 The fact that she was 1170 00:40:06.680 --> 00:40:08.389 vilified because of the way she 1171 00:40:08.390 --> 00:40:11.299 looked a lot of the times, 1172 00:40:11.300 --> 00:40:13.459 because of the fact that she didn't 1173 00:40:13.460 --> 00:40:16.429 make any concessions to femininity, 1174 00:40:16.430 --> 00:40:18.439 she was like, you know, 1175 00:40:18.440 --> 00:40:20.509 male writers are never asked why 1176 00:40:20.510 --> 00:40:22.489 they wear the clothes they wear, 1177 00:40:22.490 --> 00:40:24.319 why whether they wash their hair or 1178 00:40:24.320 --> 00:40:26.629 not. I just wanted to be a writer 1179 00:40:26.630 --> 00:40:29.239 and to be seen as a writer. 1180 00:40:29.240 --> 00:40:31.309 And so she that's when she donned 1181 00:40:31.310 --> 00:40:33.319 the uniform of the overalls, you 1182 00:40:33.320 --> 00:40:34.320 know. 1183 00:40:35.800 --> 00:40:37.849 So that there's 1184 00:40:37.850 --> 00:40:39.829 a hand over ness, I think. 1185 00:40:39.830 --> 00:40:40.830 And there's. 1186 00:40:48.440 --> 00:40:50.389 Hi. I would like you to speak about 1187 00:40:50.390 --> 00:40:53.169 why you selected the title. 1188 00:40:53.170 --> 00:40:55.059 And why not? 1189 00:40:55.060 --> 00:40:56.060 Andrea Dworkin. 1190 00:40:58.570 --> 00:41:00.340 So you mean my name is Andrea? 1191 00:41:01.680 --> 00:41:03.669 Um, I think it was 1192 00:41:03.670 --> 00:41:05.709 kind of really to go 1193 00:41:05.710 --> 00:41:08.349 in line with my kind of conceptual, 1194 00:41:08.350 --> 00:41:10.989 formal approach to the storytelling 1195 00:41:10.990 --> 00:41:12.939 so that the all these women are 1196 00:41:12.940 --> 00:41:14.829 called Andrea. 1197 00:41:14.830 --> 00:41:16.809 And it was to kind 1198 00:41:16.810 --> 00:41:18.699 of break apart 1199 00:41:18.700 --> 00:41:20.649 the singularity of 1200 00:41:20.650 --> 00:41:23.109 a particular story. 1201 00:41:23.110 --> 00:41:24.939 So to using Andrea 1202 00:41:24.940 --> 00:41:27.489 story, but to kind of extrapolate 1203 00:41:27.490 --> 00:41:29.439 to other kind of bodies 1204 00:41:29.440 --> 00:41:30.669 who experienced similar 1205 00:41:31.750 --> 00:41:34.359 have had similar experiences. 1206 00:41:34.360 --> 00:41:36.219 And I kind of wanted to open it 1207 00:41:36.220 --> 00:41:38.479 up in that way. 1208 00:41:38.480 --> 00:41:40.779 And I think that 1209 00:41:40.780 --> 00:41:43.299 by just calling it Andrea walking, 1210 00:41:43.300 --> 00:41:44.679 there would be a certain kind of 1211 00:41:44.680 --> 00:41:46.359 expectation of it being a certain 1212 00:41:46.360 --> 00:41:47.889 kind of biography. 1213 00:41:47.890 --> 00:41:50.050 And that's not what I was doing. 1214 00:41:58.540 --> 00:42:00.399 I'm curious about your 1215 00:42:00.400 --> 00:42:03.189 ending with the, quote, 1216 00:42:03.190 --> 00:42:04.719 24 hours shows. 1217 00:42:04.720 --> 00:42:06.789 I haven't read Andrea's work, 1218 00:42:06.790 --> 00:42:08.739 but I have read like Angela Davis 1219 00:42:08.740 --> 00:42:10.929 and Val Hooks, all the other 1220 00:42:10.930 --> 00:42:12.349 feminist scholars. 1221 00:42:12.350 --> 00:42:14.049 So I was just curious if there's 1222 00:42:14.050 --> 00:42:15.759 any. I'm sure there are different 1223 00:42:15.760 --> 00:42:18.519 interpretations about the shoes 1224 00:42:18.520 --> 00:42:21.099 given, like the current 1225 00:42:21.100 --> 00:42:23.409 circumstances, circumstances 1226 00:42:23.410 --> 00:42:26.439 around like MeToo movement and 1227 00:42:26.440 --> 00:42:28.449 Roe v Wade and all of those 1228 00:42:28.450 --> 00:42:30.699 aren't are they like kind of related 1229 00:42:30.700 --> 00:42:32.739 or like, I'm just curious why 1230 00:42:32.740 --> 00:42:34.209 you select the ending with the 1231 00:42:34.210 --> 00:42:35.619 clock? Yeah, I think. 1232 00:42:37.450 --> 00:42:39.159 To find stand that correctly. 1233 00:42:39.160 --> 00:42:41.259 So why did I end 1234 00:42:41.260 --> 00:42:43.209 with that 1235 00:42:43.210 --> 00:42:45.219 speech she made? 1236 00:42:45.220 --> 00:42:47.049 Yeah. I don't know if it was clear, 1237 00:42:47.050 --> 00:42:48.909 but the that speech was made. 1238 00:42:48.910 --> 00:42:50.139 She made that speech to a 1239 00:42:50.140 --> 00:42:51.939 conference, a men's conference. 1240 00:42:53.350 --> 00:42:55.039 There were over 500 men. 1241 00:42:55.040 --> 00:42:57.189 She was the only woman there. 1242 00:42:57.190 --> 00:42:59.049 And she gave that speech to those 1243 00:42:59.050 --> 00:43:00.009 men. 1244 00:43:00.010 --> 00:43:01.899 I think that, you know, when I 1245 00:43:01.900 --> 00:43:03.639 read that speech and when I heard 1246 00:43:03.640 --> 00:43:05.439 her voice, because there's only a 1247 00:43:05.440 --> 00:43:07.479 recording of it, there was no 1248 00:43:07.480 --> 00:43:09.519 only an audio recording of it. 1249 00:43:09.520 --> 00:43:11.439 And when I heard it, I just thought 1250 00:43:11.440 --> 00:43:13.179 that it was just so powerful 1251 00:43:14.620 --> 00:43:16.899 and that it really 1252 00:43:16.900 --> 00:43:18.670 is a kind of a 1253 00:43:19.810 --> 00:43:20.889 plus the word. 1254 00:43:22.300 --> 00:43:23.979 So not a kind of mission statement, 1255 00:43:23.980 --> 00:43:25.929 but it's like a call to arms. 1256 00:43:25.930 --> 00:43:28.089 It's like saying, okay, 1257 00:43:28.090 --> 00:43:28.959 what are we going to do? 1258 00:43:28.960 --> 00:43:30.849 Is there can we have 1259 00:43:30.850 --> 00:43:32.829 a 24 hour truce on rape? 1260 00:43:32.830 --> 00:43:34.419 And it's kind of almost symbolic and 1261 00:43:34.420 --> 00:43:36.249 metaphorical because we can't 1262 00:43:36.250 --> 00:43:37.989 you know, it's like rape is 1263 00:43:37.990 --> 00:43:39.849 happening every few seconds 1264 00:43:39.850 --> 00:43:40.850 all over the world. 1265 00:43:42.880 --> 00:43:44.529 But I think that it's a kind of a 1266 00:43:44.530 --> 00:43:46.509 polemical didactic kind 1267 00:43:46.510 --> 00:43:48.339 of rhetorical 1268 00:43:48.340 --> 00:43:50.379 speech that 1269 00:43:50.380 --> 00:43:52.299 I find really quite 1270 00:43:52.300 --> 00:43:54.519 rousing in that 1271 00:43:54.520 --> 00:43:56.589 it makes me want to go out and 1272 00:43:56.590 --> 00:43:58.599 be like, what can I do? 1273 00:43:58.600 --> 00:44:00.579 What can I practically do 1274 00:44:00.580 --> 00:44:03.489 to try and change the situation? 1275 00:44:03.490 --> 00:44:04.959 And I think that that's part of my 1276 00:44:04.960 --> 00:44:06.909 intent is to sort of say, 1277 00:44:06.910 --> 00:44:09.009 you know, to make people feel like, 1278 00:44:09.010 --> 00:44:10.809 okay, you know what? 1279 00:44:10.810 --> 00:44:12.999 How can any one of us do something 1280 00:44:13.000 --> 00:44:14.080 to change this? 1281 00:44:17.800 --> 00:44:19.449 I think that's a really great place 1282 00:44:19.450 --> 00:44:21.399 actually to end is 1283 00:44:21.400 --> 00:44:23.439 the, you know, inducement to think 1284 00:44:23.440 --> 00:44:25.299 about what can I do, what 1285 00:44:25.300 --> 00:44:26.619 can I do to change this? 1286 00:44:26.620 --> 00:44:28.479 And you know, from 1287 00:44:28.480 --> 00:44:30.309 Andrea's final words in the film 1288 00:44:30.310 --> 00:44:32.139 that you created is that 1289 00:44:33.310 --> 00:44:35.229 I think that that's how we should 1290 00:44:35.230 --> 00:44:37.209 part from the premiere 1291 00:44:37.210 --> 00:44:39.459 of My Name is Andrea Tonight. 1292 00:44:39.460 --> 00:44:41.289 So please, once again, a thank 1293 00:44:41.290 --> 00:44:42.459 you to The Hammer. 1294 00:44:42.460 --> 00:44:43.689 Thank you to Billy Wilder Theater 1295 00:44:43.690 --> 00:44:45.309 and everyone who supported us here 1296 00:44:45.310 --> 00:44:46.310 and everyone associated.