WEBVTT

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Hi everyone.

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Welcome to the Hammer Museum.

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I'm Claudia Bestor.

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I'm the director of public Programs

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here and I'm very, very pleased to

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welcome me tonight. Tamara

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conversation with Maggie Nelson

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and Michelle Tea.

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Before we get started, I want to

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remind you to please silence your

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cell phones. And I want to quickly

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mention some upcoming Hammer

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literary programs you might be

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interested in.

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Tomorrow night, Alice Elliot Dark

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will read from her wonderful new

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novel, Fellowship Point, and she'll

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be in dialog with novelist Mona

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Simpson after it's the next

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Tuesday. James Hannaham Ham, the

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author of the new book Didn't Nobody

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Give a Shit About what Happened to

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Carlotta, will be here in dialog

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with Jonathan Lethem, the author

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of Motherless Brooklyn and

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Didn't nobody give a shit about

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Carlotta is such a great book.

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Just love it. You'll love it too.

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So come to that.

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The next Thursday, the celebrated

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poet and former poet laureate

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Robert Pinsky will be reading from

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his recently published memoir, as

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well as from his new unpublished

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poems.

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On Friday, February 17th.

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Hilton Als will be here speaking in

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dialog with Jennifer Krasinski.

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And then on February 23rd, the

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Pulitzer Prize winning poet Vijay

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Society will be reading here as

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well. So we have a lot going

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on. If you'd like to receive

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reminder emails about our upcoming

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event, please sign up for

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our email list.

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There's a sheet of paper in the

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lobby you can sign up on, or you

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can always find out more information

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on our website.

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So now I'd like to introduce this

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evening's wonderful writers.

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Maggie Nelson is the author of ten

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books of prose and poetry.

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And as a serious scholar of critical

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theory, philosophy, psychology,

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feminist and queer theory, cultural

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and art criticism, the history

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of the avant garde and esthetic

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theory.

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Her books include The Art of

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Cruelty, Fluids,

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The Red Parts Jane

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and the Argonauts.

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The Argonauts is now widely regarded

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as one of the defining literary

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works of the 21st century.

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It was a New York Times bestseller

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and was awarded the 2015 National

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Book Critics Circle Award and

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Criticism.

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In 2016, Nelson

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was awarded a MacArthur Genius

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Fellowship for, quote, forging

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a new mode of nonfiction that

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transcends the divide between the

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personal and the intellectual,

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and renders pressing issues

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of our time into portraits of day to

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day lived experience.

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Her most recent book, the national

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bestseller on Freedom for Songs

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of Care and Constraint, has just

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come out in paperback, and

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we're very, very excited about it,

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and we're really thrilled to have

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her back at The Hammer for the

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eighth time

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to talk about this new book.

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Michelle Tea is the author of over

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a dozen books, including the cult

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classics Valencia and Rent

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Girl.

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Her first book, The Passionate

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Mistakes An Intricate Corruption of

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One Girl in America, was published

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by Semiotics in 1998.

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She published Against Memoir in

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2018, which won the PEN America

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Award for The Art of the Essay.

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Her most recent book is Knocking

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Myself Up, a memoir of My

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Infertility.

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Long before publishing all of these

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books, she co-founded the Lesbian,

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Feminist Spoken Word and Performance

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Art Collective Sisters

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in 1994, which two

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or twice to the Hammer Museum.

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And to this day, the videos from

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those performances are some of our

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most watched of all times.

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She also started Drag Queen

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Story Hour, which, as we all know,

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is now held throughout the entire

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world, but about to be banned in

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half the United States.

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She also started her own queer

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publishing imprint at the Feminist

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Press called Amethyst Editions.

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So tonight, Maggie and Michelle will

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have a dialog.

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We'll take some audience questions.

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And then I'd like to invite you all

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to join us for some light

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refreshments out in the lobby.

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And we'll have Maggie and Michelle's

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books available for purchase, and

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they'll be there to sign some for

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you. So now please join me in

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giving a very warm welcome

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to Maggie Nelson and Michelle Tea.

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God. We were told we wouldn't be

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able to see you guys.

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And yet I can see all of you so

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clearly.

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We can see every single one.

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We were so busy talking out there we

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didn't barely hear on

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our call on.

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So we're already we're already going

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here.

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We're already chatting.

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Okay.

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We're caffeinated.

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We're ready to go.

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Maggie Nelson.

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This is Michelle.

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This is Maggie's fantastic book.

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This is the Canadian edition.

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Not to brag, but it does

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have orange on it, which is pretty

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cool for Songs of Care and

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Constraint.

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It's such a generous book and

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it asks really big questions

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that are just impossible to answer

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and makes your brain explode

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about sex, drugs, climate change,

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art.

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And it really ends up interrogating

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what it means to be human, to have a

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mind, maybe even to have a soul.

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What brought you to this giant

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mess of thought?

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Like it so much.

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How did you even come to this

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insanity?

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Yeah, I believe it's totally

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insanity.

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Well, let me just say, Michelle, I'm

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so happy to be here with you.

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I love Michelle so much.

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And, you know, and I'm just.

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I can't when I thought of you

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reading this book this week, it

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just, like, made me, you know,

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you're like an ideal readers made me

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very happy.

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And I'm also happy to be here to

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talk to all you guys.

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I think this is like,

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I don't know.

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I don't know if it's the first

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or it's one of three in-person

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events I've done for this book since

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it came out in 2021.

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So it's really special, especially

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because this

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is Our town apparently

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now.

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It is now.

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I know.

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God, when will that seem normal?

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So this book,

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this book was, you know, Yeah, it

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was like a real it was a real,

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like, octopus wrestling

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experience, you know?

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And I think,

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you know, I started it actually

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before I wrote The Argonauts.

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It was a book I was about to start

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working on after I wrote a book

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called The Art of Cruelty.

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And I got you know, I was really

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into kind of keyword thinking,

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like, I've been thinking about

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cruelty for a long time.

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And then the the kind of

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big word that kept,

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you know, getting like kind of bold

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out of that book was freedom only

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because I just started thinking a

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lot about

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the way that and a lot I mean, well,

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I started writing a lot about John

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Cage, weirdly, in the Cruelty book,

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and I was starting to think a lot

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about the ways that

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maybe.

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In all of his writing about, you

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know, his defining love is like

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making space around the beloved and

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all this kind of idea of like, space

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making.

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And I started feeling like a lot of

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the cruel scenarios or brutal

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things I was writing about in The

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Art of Cruelty really had to do with

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a feeling of not being able to get

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out of them. Like it wasn't so much

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that they were the brutality of it.

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It was also that something felt

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foreclosed, like an agency had been

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foreclosed.

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There wasn't space to move.

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And so I started just thinking

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about that a lot and then reading,

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you know, people who'd written,

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you know, I say in the introduction,

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you know, Hannah ran on freedom or

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different people for different

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people. I mean, obviously, a lot of

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the more pragmatic, you know,

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or abolitionist thinkers.

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But I just started getting really

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interested in

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not just the outer resistances

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to I mean, not just the outer forces

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that make freedom not possible,

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which I think we all could probably

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have a pretty,

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you know, quick and agreeable

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conversation about what those forces

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are, but also what some of the inner

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resistances to freedom are and what

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what a more marbled experience it

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can be to be

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working, you know, inside oneself

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with restraint and constraint and

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freedom. And so I started just

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collecting notes and reading a lot.

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And I had

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a lot of fire.

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I mean, I wasn't I don't when I'm

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working on a book, it's

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just not I mean, depends on the

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book. But in this particular book, I

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wasn't for a long time, I didn't

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have an image of it.

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I didn't know if it would be like

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autobiographical.

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I didn't have a B poetry.

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I didn't know if it would be

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scholarly. Like, I just really

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didn't know. I just, like, read and

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collect. And then when I kind of

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looked at what I'd collected,

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you know, one has to make decisions.

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So I began to decide to sort

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them out into these these four

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categories, you know, art, sex,

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00:09:03.260 --> 00:09:04.909
drugs and climate.

285
00:09:04.910 --> 00:09:07.009
And then and then the octopus

286
00:09:07.010 --> 00:09:08.719
wrestling part was just once I kind

287
00:09:08.720 --> 00:09:10.729
of decided that I would

288
00:09:10.730 --> 00:09:13.549
attack the subject matter by writing

289
00:09:13.550 --> 00:09:15.529
on each one.

290
00:09:15.530 --> 00:09:17.449
You know, each chapter was long

291
00:09:17.450 --> 00:09:19.009
and they ended up I think they're

292
00:09:19.010 --> 00:09:20.989
probably each about 50 pages, maybe

293
00:09:20.990 --> 00:09:22.639
50 to 70 pages in the book.

294
00:09:22.640 --> 00:09:23.629
But, you know, in manuscript they

295
00:09:23.630 --> 00:09:24.919
were over a hundred each.

296
00:09:24.920 --> 00:09:26.779
And and I wasn't even sure if

297
00:09:26.780 --> 00:09:28.609
they were going to be more chapters

298
00:09:28.610 --> 00:09:29.869
like I was going to do it on digital

299
00:09:29.870 --> 00:09:31.399
media and surveillance, like there

300
00:09:31.400 --> 00:09:32.419
was other things.

301
00:09:32.420 --> 00:09:34.249
So eventually I just

302
00:09:34.250 --> 00:09:35.250
had to,

303
00:09:36.380 --> 00:09:38.359
you know, put a constraint on it and

304
00:09:38.360 --> 00:09:40.309
end it. And especially because

305
00:09:40.310 --> 00:09:42.259
some of them, like art and sex,

306
00:09:42.260 --> 00:09:43.260
were probably.

307
00:09:44.360 --> 00:09:46.369
Like the ones I had most

308
00:09:46.370 --> 00:09:48.379
negative experience where the but

309
00:09:48.380 --> 00:09:49.380
then the

310
00:09:50.360 --> 00:09:51.679
certainly climate I did a lot of

311
00:09:51.680 --> 00:09:53.149
research for and so that took a long

312
00:09:53.150 --> 00:09:54.589
time. And then the drugs chapter

313
00:09:54.590 --> 00:09:56.149
even though I have some experience

314
00:09:56.150 --> 00:09:58.009
there as well, I was

315
00:09:58.010 --> 00:10:00.109
really interested in reading

316
00:10:00.110 --> 00:10:01.999
a lot of

317
00:10:02.000 --> 00:10:03.889
drug memoir and literature

318
00:10:03.890 --> 00:10:05.749
and literature about addiction

319
00:10:05.750 --> 00:10:07.819
and sobriety, too,

320
00:10:07.820 --> 00:10:09.679
and libertarian drug

321
00:10:09.680 --> 00:10:11.079
theory, I mean, all kinds of things.

322
00:10:11.080 --> 00:10:12.409
So I actually did a lot of research

323
00:10:12.410 --> 00:10:13.609
for that chapter as well.

324
00:10:13.610 --> 00:10:14.779
So all of which is to say, I took a

325
00:10:14.780 --> 00:10:16.669
long time and,

326
00:10:16.670 --> 00:10:17.929
you know, like all books, but maybe

327
00:10:17.930 --> 00:10:19.969
more in this case than others,

328
00:10:19.970 --> 00:10:21.979
felt like a kind of truth when

329
00:10:21.980 --> 00:10:23.749
it had to end, you know, like it

330
00:10:23.750 --> 00:10:25.189
could have it could have gone on and

331
00:10:25.190 --> 00:10:26.299
on.

332
00:10:26.300 --> 00:10:28.039
But then, you know, also COVID

333
00:10:28.040 --> 00:10:29.959
happened in the midst of

334
00:10:29.960 --> 00:10:31.279
it. And that's a whole other topic.

335
00:10:31.280 --> 00:10:32.179
But yeah.

336
00:10:32.180 --> 00:10:34.039
Were there other possible

337
00:10:34.040 --> 00:10:35.989
songs that didn't make it into

338
00:10:35.990 --> 00:10:37.669
the book besides like surveillance?

339
00:10:37.670 --> 00:10:38.509
I mean, there's a lot about

340
00:10:38.510 --> 00:10:39.679
surveillance in the book.

341
00:10:39.680 --> 00:10:40.880
And were there other.

342
00:10:41.900 --> 00:10:43.369
No, I mean, that was the main one.

343
00:10:43.370 --> 00:10:45.079
I think at the end of the day I felt

344
00:10:45.080 --> 00:10:46.909
happy that I think all

345
00:10:46.910 --> 00:10:48.859
the thinking I did that

346
00:10:48.860 --> 00:10:50.779
was like stray thinking about other

347
00:10:50.780 --> 00:10:52.399
things. I think I smashed it all

348
00:10:52.400 --> 00:10:53.129
into.

349
00:10:53.130 --> 00:10:54.949
Not so much blurred chapters.

350
00:10:54.950 --> 00:10:57.139
While so I feel like I kind of got,

351
00:10:57.140 --> 00:10:58.699
you know, my rocks off or whatever.

352
00:10:58.700 --> 00:11:00.109
Like, there's a lot of fun, though.

353
00:11:00.110 --> 00:11:01.579
It's I said like a lot of stuff.

354
00:11:01.580 --> 00:11:03.409
I said, like, I feel like

355
00:11:03.410 --> 00:11:04.909
I feel like I got it all down.

356
00:11:04.910 --> 00:11:05.059
Yeah.

357
00:11:05.060 --> 00:11:06.319
The footnote is like another

358
00:11:06.320 --> 00:11:07.909
section. And then the bibliography.

359
00:11:07.910 --> 00:11:09.319
I'm like, daring myself.

360
00:11:09.320 --> 00:11:11.149
I'm like, What if I just dared

361
00:11:11.150 --> 00:11:12.589
myself to read the entire

362
00:11:12.590 --> 00:11:14.089
bibliography for on Frida?

363
00:11:14.090 --> 00:11:16.099
I'm like, Yeah, I want to do it.

364
00:11:16.100 --> 00:11:17.449
I started searching at my library to

365
00:11:17.450 --> 00:11:18.699
see what they have.

366
00:11:18.700 --> 00:11:19.549
That's great. Yeah.

367
00:11:19.550 --> 00:11:21.469
I mean, it's funny to publish

368
00:11:21.470 --> 00:11:23.090
things like this that are.

369
00:11:25.890 --> 00:11:27.869
Like like

370
00:11:27.870 --> 00:11:29.729
after I wrote, like one, I

371
00:11:29.730 --> 00:11:30.959
guess, book that could be called

372
00:11:30.960 --> 00:11:32.579
like official scholarship, you know,

373
00:11:32.580 --> 00:11:34.109
with the university press and stuff.

374
00:11:34.110 --> 00:11:35.249
After that, I was like, I'm never,

375
00:11:35.250 --> 00:11:36.459
ever doing that again.

376
00:11:36.460 --> 00:11:38.189
And how come What was so horrible

377
00:11:38.190 --> 00:11:38.609
about it?

378
00:11:38.610 --> 00:11:39.989
I don't know.

379
00:11:39.990 --> 00:11:40.649
It just.

380
00:11:40.650 --> 00:11:41.579
Was it like the state?

381
00:11:41.580 --> 00:11:42.989
Did it make you write in a

382
00:11:42.990 --> 00:11:44.519
particular voice that you hated it?

383
00:11:44.520 --> 00:11:45.389
Was it dealing?

384
00:11:45.390 --> 00:11:46.949
That's boring. But it had been my

385
00:11:46.950 --> 00:11:49.019
dissertation and I think I.

386
00:11:49.020 --> 00:11:50.039
I cared a lot about it.

387
00:11:50.040 --> 00:11:51.629
I mean, it was about, you know,

388
00:11:51.630 --> 00:11:53.339
women in the New York school, poetry

389
00:11:53.340 --> 00:11:54.479
and painters.

390
00:11:54.480 --> 00:11:55.259
And I cared.

391
00:11:55.260 --> 00:11:56.519
And I thought it was a totally

392
00:11:56.520 --> 00:11:57.929
worthwhile intervention.

393
00:11:59.010 --> 00:12:01.169
And it had chapters on Eileen Myles

394
00:12:01.170 --> 00:12:02.309
and Bernadette Mayer and Alice

395
00:12:02.310 --> 00:12:03.809
Notley and Barbara Gast and John

396
00:12:03.810 --> 00:12:05.069
Mitchell and a bunch of people I

397
00:12:05.070 --> 00:12:06.119
thought were super rad.

398
00:12:06.120 --> 00:12:08.069
And I so I wanted to I cared

399
00:12:08.070 --> 00:12:10.019
about all that. But I'm getting

400
00:12:10.020 --> 00:12:11.339
to the point about the bibliography,

401
00:12:11.340 --> 00:12:13.499
which is that one nice thing

402
00:12:13.500 --> 00:12:15.509
about publishing not in

403
00:12:15.510 --> 00:12:17.579
a scholarly fashion, is that,

404
00:12:17.580 --> 00:12:19.679
you know, no one really makes you do

405
00:12:19.680 --> 00:12:21.149
apparatus, you know, and no one

406
00:12:21.150 --> 00:12:22.979
really demands that there be

407
00:12:22.980 --> 00:12:24.959
footnotes or bibliography or

408
00:12:24.960 --> 00:12:26.759
indexes, and you can really make

409
00:12:26.760 --> 00:12:28.289
your own call.

410
00:12:28.290 --> 00:12:29.879
And I think in this project,

411
00:12:31.260 --> 00:12:32.369
you know, I don't think I made like

412
00:12:32.370 --> 00:12:34.349
every reader happy, but it made me

413
00:12:34.350 --> 00:12:36.539
happy that I

414
00:12:36.540 --> 00:12:38.579
made some calls that were toward

415
00:12:38.580 --> 00:12:39.580
the cumbersome

416
00:12:40.800 --> 00:12:42.899
in order that I just,

417
00:12:42.900 --> 00:12:44.789
as you just said, like, could really

418
00:12:44.790 --> 00:12:46.529
have a roadmap of all this thinking,

419
00:12:46.530 --> 00:12:48.389
because the road map to me was

420
00:12:48.390 --> 00:12:51.149
more important really, than

421
00:12:51.150 --> 00:12:52.799
it's not like a nonfiction book

422
00:12:52.800 --> 00:12:53.879
that's like unfreedom.

423
00:12:53.880 --> 00:12:55.319
What? What would we do now and how

424
00:12:55.320 --> 00:12:56.099
would we live it tomorrow?

425
00:12:56.100 --> 00:12:57.359
You know, it's not like I mean, like

426
00:12:57.360 --> 00:12:58.829
the Malcolm Gladwell style of

427
00:12:58.830 --> 00:13:00.059
nonfiction. Like it.

428
00:13:00.060 --> 00:13:00.929
It's not that.

429
00:13:00.930 --> 00:13:03.359
And so I think it's painful

430
00:13:03.360 --> 00:13:05.459
sometimes. Like if you

431
00:13:05.460 --> 00:13:07.379
are interfacing with

432
00:13:07.380 --> 00:13:08.669
the mainstream, I mean I mean,

433
00:13:08.670 --> 00:13:10.649
you've had this too, like that, that

434
00:13:10.650 --> 00:13:11.759
that's what they're,

435
00:13:12.870 --> 00:13:14.369
you know, like, I'm not that writer,

436
00:13:14.370 --> 00:13:16.349
but you're just kind of like in drag

437
00:13:16.350 --> 00:13:18.329
doing it or whatever we are doing

438
00:13:18.330 --> 00:13:19.739
that, you know? But I think I

439
00:13:19.740 --> 00:13:21.659
intentionally kind of bulked

440
00:13:21.660 --> 00:13:23.639
it up with, with, with like,

441
00:13:23.640 --> 00:13:25.589
a trail of crumbs, you know?

442
00:13:25.590 --> 00:13:26.549
Yeah, it's great.

443
00:13:26.550 --> 00:13:27.989
It's really exciting, actually.

444
00:13:27.990 --> 00:13:29.309
It's like it feels very generous.

445
00:13:29.310 --> 00:13:30.869
Like, I love I love turning people

446
00:13:30.870 --> 00:13:32.669
on to writers that I love and I love

447
00:13:32.670 --> 00:13:33.989
hearing writers.

448
00:13:33.990 --> 00:13:35.429
I love what they're reading.

449
00:13:35.430 --> 00:13:37.119
So it's it's an important part.

450
00:13:37.120 --> 00:13:38.069
It's very funny to me.

451
00:13:38.070 --> 00:13:39.089
Like, this happens a lot.

452
00:13:39.090 --> 00:13:40.889
Like people would be like my

453
00:13:40.890 --> 00:13:42.239
Argonauts or this book or something.

454
00:13:42.240 --> 00:13:43.169
They were like, Well, what? You know, what

455
00:13:43.170 --> 00:13:44.009
books inspired it?

456
00:13:44.010 --> 00:13:45.869
And I'm like, The whole thing is

457
00:13:45.870 --> 00:13:47.309
just like an interfacing with the

458
00:13:47.310 --> 00:13:48.449
books that are like how.

459
00:13:48.450 --> 00:13:49.589
They just pick it up and open it up.

460
00:13:49.590 --> 00:13:50.549
Yeah, like, I feel like I have to

461
00:13:50.550 --> 00:13:52.349
come up with like a, a slate of

462
00:13:52.350 --> 00:13:53.999
ghost books that, you know, I don't

463
00:13:54.000 --> 00:13:55.019
make any books.

464
00:13:55.020 --> 00:13:56.939
Yeah, but I mean, but that said,

465
00:13:56.940 --> 00:13:58.049
you know, I mean sometimes there are

466
00:13:58.050 --> 00:14:00.449
ghost books or ghost songs

467
00:14:00.450 --> 00:14:01.739
or I mean there are things that

468
00:14:01.740 --> 00:14:03.599
inspire that are not on

469
00:14:03.600 --> 00:14:05.699
the table, but mostly in an effort

470
00:14:05.700 --> 00:14:07.679
like this, you know, everything's

471
00:14:07.680 --> 00:14:08.680
on the table.

472
00:14:09.510 --> 00:14:10.529
All right. I'm going to read I'm

473
00:14:10.530 --> 00:14:11.819
going to quote you to yourself,

474
00:14:11.820 --> 00:14:13.139
which is fun.

475
00:14:13.140 --> 00:14:14.999
And this this is from the

476
00:14:15.000 --> 00:14:16.589
segment that is on ah, it's such a

477
00:14:16.590 --> 00:14:18.179
great quote. As you say.

478
00:14:18.180 --> 00:14:20.069
She says it's naive

479
00:14:20.070 --> 00:14:21.479
and unfair to expect artists and

480
00:14:21.480 --> 00:14:23.429
writers to have special access to

481
00:14:23.430 --> 00:14:25.559
the most intense, extreme or painful

482
00:14:25.560 --> 00:14:27.419
aspects of life, then to act

483
00:14:27.420 --> 00:14:29.159
surprised and appalled when they

484
00:14:29.160 --> 00:14:30.539
turn out to have a relationship to

485
00:14:30.540 --> 00:14:32.249
those things that exceeds that of

486
00:14:32.250 --> 00:14:34.409
abstract contemplation or simple

487
00:14:34.410 --> 00:14:35.399
critique.

488
00:14:35.400 --> 00:14:37.259
It made me think of so many things,

489
00:14:37.260 --> 00:14:39.059
right, and made me think of like I

490
00:14:39.060 --> 00:14:40.349
love. I'm like, obsessed with this

491
00:14:40.350 --> 00:14:42.569
one part of like John Junior's story

492
00:14:42.570 --> 00:14:44.399
about how when he got kind of like

493
00:14:44.400 --> 00:14:46.519
adopted by Jean Cocteau and

494
00:14:46.520 --> 00:14:48.039
I was like, Oh, this guy, you know,

495
00:14:48.040 --> 00:14:49.919
like, brought him into his, like,

496
00:14:49.920 --> 00:14:52.439
very fancy bourgeois

497
00:14:52.440 --> 00:14:54.389
Parisian fag life.

498
00:14:54.390 --> 00:14:56.429
And then Jenny, like, stole

499
00:14:56.430 --> 00:14:58.139
from them all, like, rip them off.

500
00:14:58.140 --> 00:14:59.429
And they would just be like, oh, you

501
00:14:59.430 --> 00:15:00.809
know, that trade stole.

502
00:15:00.810 --> 00:15:02.519
And it's like, well you, that's what

503
00:15:02.520 --> 00:15:04.139
you, you know, you want, you like

504
00:15:04.140 --> 00:15:06.029
that about him. And then also he's

505
00:15:06.030 --> 00:15:07.649
a thief. That's the name of his

506
00:15:07.650 --> 00:15:08.049
book.

507
00:15:08.050 --> 00:15:09.089
They're saying, oh, they're a book

508
00:15:09.090 --> 00:15:10.649
titled something. Yeah.

509
00:15:10.650 --> 00:15:11.549
Right, right. Yeah.

510
00:15:11.550 --> 00:15:13.859
So, and it made me also think like,

511
00:15:13.860 --> 00:15:15.989
you know, okay, this is like

512
00:15:15.990 --> 00:15:17.909
a little you to admit, but I do

513
00:15:17.910 --> 00:15:19.769
enjoy the music stylings of Marilyn

514
00:15:19.770 --> 00:15:21.299
Manson, you know?

515
00:15:21.300 --> 00:15:22.979
And I like it because it's so sexual

516
00:15:22.980 --> 00:15:25.169
and violent and self-loathing.

517
00:15:25.170 --> 00:15:26.189
And then you learn that he's a

518
00:15:26.190 --> 00:15:28.469
fucking monster and he's just like

519
00:15:28.470 --> 00:15:29.849
Marilyn Manson, you know?

520
00:15:29.850 --> 00:15:31.649
And it's just like, you know, I just

521
00:15:31.650 --> 00:15:33.509
feel like such a big bozo.

522
00:15:33.510 --> 00:15:35.099
Like, of course, Right?

523
00:15:35.100 --> 00:15:37.109
Like, that is exactly what draws

524
00:15:37.110 --> 00:15:39.149
you to it, even if you're projecting

525
00:15:39.150 --> 00:15:41.279
or, you know, it's a fantasy and

526
00:15:41.280 --> 00:15:43.230
then it's maybe not, you know.

527
00:15:44.810 --> 00:15:46.499
Yeah, it's really coming out to you

528
00:15:46.500 --> 00:15:48.659
guys about all my

529
00:15:48.660 --> 00:15:50.699
truly guilty pleasures.

530
00:15:50.700 --> 00:15:51.869
Like, show more me about that

531
00:15:51.870 --> 00:15:52.469
question.

532
00:15:52.470 --> 00:15:53.759
Because I want to know who I know.

533
00:15:53.760 --> 00:15:54.599
The answer that.

534
00:15:54.600 --> 00:15:56.189
You said that was like, Oh, no, is

535
00:15:56.190 --> 00:15:57.059
that you can't?

536
00:15:57.060 --> 00:15:58.439
I mean, I mean, the thing is, is it

537
00:15:58.440 --> 00:16:00.329
I mean, I mean, I just

538
00:16:00.330 --> 00:16:01.379
mentioned the book The Art of

539
00:16:01.380 --> 00:16:03.089
Cruelty. I mean, that whole book is

540
00:16:03.090 --> 00:16:04.090
about

541
00:16:05.100 --> 00:16:06.989
it's not about mean, it's not

542
00:16:06.990 --> 00:16:08.070
true. It's not about.

543
00:16:11.360 --> 00:16:12.589
I mean, I don't think I actually

544
00:16:12.590 --> 00:16:14.539
wrote about anybody in that book who

545
00:16:14.540 --> 00:16:15.540
I.

546
00:16:16.490 --> 00:16:18.409
It was like a reprehensible

547
00:16:18.410 --> 00:16:19.069
human being.

548
00:16:19.070 --> 00:16:20.509
I mean, they may be I mean, I don't

549
00:16:20.510 --> 00:16:22.429
know them like personally, but

550
00:16:22.430 --> 00:16:24.020
I mean, like, I think I was

551
00:16:27.050 --> 00:16:28.339
like I didn't write about anything

552
00:16:28.340 --> 00:16:29.689
that didn't seem to me, like, truly

553
00:16:29.690 --> 00:16:30.949
worthwhile. Like, I didn't spend a

554
00:16:30.950 --> 00:16:32.899
lot of time on things, but I do.

555
00:16:32.900 --> 00:16:33.679
Didn't write about Marilyn.

556
00:16:33.680 --> 00:16:35.539
Manson. Well, no, but I did write.

557
00:16:35.540 --> 00:16:36.739
I mean, I but I think that there are

558
00:16:36.740 --> 00:16:37.789
I mean, I but I did write in that

559
00:16:37.790 --> 00:16:39.649
book about, you

560
00:16:39.650 --> 00:16:42.169
know, the whole book was a lot about

561
00:16:42.170 --> 00:16:44.149
the differences

562
00:16:44.150 --> 00:16:46.249
and the blurring between

563
00:16:46.250 --> 00:16:47.839
art and life and the kind of 20th

564
00:16:47.840 --> 00:16:49.669
century obsession with that blurring

565
00:16:49.670 --> 00:16:51.709
and about whether it was like the V

566
00:16:51.710 --> 00:16:53.149
is actually this or, you know,

567
00:16:53.150 --> 00:16:55.039
whoever. Like,

568
00:16:55.040 --> 00:16:56.869
whether it's, you know, the or

569
00:16:56.870 --> 00:16:58.759
even I mean, I talked about the Axis

570
00:16:58.760 --> 00:16:59.989
and John Waters like in the same

571
00:16:59.990 --> 00:17:01.429
breath about like their use of, you

572
00:17:01.430 --> 00:17:02.899
know, fowl

573
00:17:04.040 --> 00:17:05.838
like chickens or sacrifice or and

574
00:17:05.839 --> 00:17:06.919
you know, like using them for

575
00:17:06.920 --> 00:17:08.899
fucking and pink

576
00:17:08.900 --> 00:17:10.068
flamingos, I guess anyway.

577
00:17:10.069 --> 00:17:12.169
But like, I think that

578
00:17:12.170 --> 00:17:13.549
I'm trying to leave you guys a trail

579
00:17:13.550 --> 00:17:15.769
of crumbs for later on today.

580
00:17:15.770 --> 00:17:17.179
No chicken fucking.

581
00:17:17.180 --> 00:17:18.189
Yeah, exactly.

582
00:17:18.190 --> 00:17:19.190
Exactly.

583
00:17:20.540 --> 00:17:21.828
But I think.

584
00:17:21.829 --> 00:17:23.059
Yeah, but I think then that whole

585
00:17:23.060 --> 00:17:24.230
book I was really.

586
00:17:27.000 --> 00:17:28.589
I mean, that quote that you just

587
00:17:28.590 --> 00:17:30.019
read was really.

588
00:17:30.020 --> 00:17:31.379
I'd already thought about that a

589
00:17:31.380 --> 00:17:32.549
lot, you know, and I'd already

590
00:17:32.550 --> 00:17:33.899
thought a lot about that through

591
00:17:33.900 --> 00:17:35.279
that project.

592
00:17:35.280 --> 00:17:37.079
And also because that project was

593
00:17:37.080 --> 00:17:38.969
preceded by this is kind

594
00:17:38.970 --> 00:17:40.679
of off topic, but two books about a

595
00:17:40.680 --> 00:17:42.779
murder in my family, where I thought

596
00:17:42.780 --> 00:17:44.160
a lot about

597
00:17:45.510 --> 00:17:46.859
the differences between like

598
00:17:46.860 --> 00:17:48.719
representing something

599
00:17:48.720 --> 00:17:50.669
that happened violent like

600
00:17:50.670 --> 00:17:52.410
versus violence and

601
00:17:53.550 --> 00:17:55.589
whether or not there

602
00:17:55.590 --> 00:17:58.139
was like even in all my goodhearted,

603
00:17:58.140 --> 00:17:59.879
you know, feminist ethics, like

604
00:17:59.880 --> 00:18:01.739
there were, you know, I did feel

605
00:18:01.740 --> 00:18:03.569
like that it was you

606
00:18:03.570 --> 00:18:04.379
know, I was working with very

607
00:18:04.380 --> 00:18:06.449
prurient material that had interest

608
00:18:06.450 --> 00:18:08.699
to editors and to readers

609
00:18:08.700 --> 00:18:10.619
because a

610
00:18:10.620 --> 00:18:12.569
young woman was murdered in

611
00:18:12.570 --> 00:18:13.359
a serial killing.

612
00:18:13.360 --> 00:18:14.339
Right. You go see where this is

613
00:18:14.340 --> 00:18:15.839
going. So, like, I'd already and I

614
00:18:15.840 --> 00:18:17.759
kind of had and I'd had to reckon

615
00:18:17.760 --> 00:18:19.649
with like I called the first book

616
00:18:19.650 --> 00:18:21.899
of about that.

617
00:18:21.900 --> 00:18:22.859
You know, I was trying to find a

618
00:18:22.860 --> 00:18:25.259
subtitle. I ended up calling it Jane

619
00:18:25.260 --> 00:18:27.149
Colon a murder,

620
00:18:27.150 --> 00:18:28.979
kind of an admission to myself

621
00:18:28.980 --> 00:18:30.619
that like this, what I was murder

622
00:18:30.620 --> 00:18:31.739
like. I felt like I was doing

623
00:18:31.740 --> 00:18:33.419
something again with her, like her

624
00:18:33.420 --> 00:18:35.309
life, like in these in

625
00:18:35.310 --> 00:18:36.389
this writing. Although, of course, I

626
00:18:36.390 --> 00:18:38.099
don't think it was equivalent to a

627
00:18:38.100 --> 00:18:39.989
murder, you know, But I think that I

628
00:18:39.990 --> 00:18:41.909
was definitely in touch with my own

629
00:18:41.910 --> 00:18:44.399
voyeurism and fear and

630
00:18:44.400 --> 00:18:47.459
anxiety, mastering and

631
00:18:47.460 --> 00:18:48.299
all that stuff.

632
00:18:48.300 --> 00:18:50.039
So I thought about that a lot.

633
00:18:50.040 --> 00:18:51.780
And I thought about also a lot,

634
00:18:54.390 --> 00:18:56.579
you know, in researching

635
00:18:56.580 --> 00:18:58.469
those books and watching a lot

636
00:18:58.470 --> 00:19:01.109
of or just having imbibed

637
00:19:01.110 --> 00:19:02.549
a lot of movies where like the

638
00:19:02.550 --> 00:19:04.199
female detective is kind of like up

639
00:19:04.200 --> 00:19:05.579
against Hannibal Lecter and it's

640
00:19:05.580 --> 00:19:07.349
kind of like, you know, is she

641
00:19:07.350 --> 00:19:08.759
working out something from her past?

642
00:19:08.760 --> 00:19:09.779
Is she really you know, she doesn't

643
00:19:09.780 --> 00:19:11.039
really want to be cannibalized or

644
00:19:11.040 --> 00:19:12.299
murdered, but like, what's she doing

645
00:19:12.300 --> 00:19:14.219
there? Like and I just kind of

646
00:19:14.220 --> 00:19:15.749
I just had thought a lot about that.

647
00:19:15.750 --> 00:19:17.339
And I think it's a kind of abiding

648
00:19:17.340 --> 00:19:19.049
question for me about

649
00:19:20.460 --> 00:19:23.279
a feminist question, too, about

650
00:19:23.280 --> 00:19:24.239
and we talked about this a little

651
00:19:24.240 --> 00:19:25.859
bit in the greenroom, but about

652
00:19:27.990 --> 00:19:30.059
how to go

653
00:19:30.060 --> 00:19:32.069
about the world, like

654
00:19:32.070 --> 00:19:34.619
acknowledging and

655
00:19:34.620 --> 00:19:36.479
protesting and resisting,

656
00:19:36.480 --> 00:19:38.039
you know, sexist and misogynist

657
00:19:38.040 --> 00:19:39.929
violence at every

658
00:19:39.930 --> 00:19:43.229
turn, while at the same time

659
00:19:43.230 --> 00:19:45.149
not by virtue of gender or

660
00:19:45.150 --> 00:19:46.150
sex, like

661
00:19:47.400 --> 00:19:49.319
divorcing oneself,

662
00:19:49.320 --> 00:19:50.939
like putting all ethical goodness on

663
00:19:50.940 --> 00:19:52.769
one side and divorcing

664
00:19:52.770 --> 00:19:55.259
oneself from the human condition

665
00:19:55.260 --> 00:19:56.669
because of those commitments.

666
00:19:56.670 --> 00:19:58.259
And so I guess I'd already thought

667
00:19:58.260 --> 00:19:59.489
about that a lot. And so in the

668
00:19:59.490 --> 00:20:02.219
chapter on Freedom,

669
00:20:02.220 --> 00:20:04.049
you know, it was a it was

670
00:20:04.050 --> 00:20:05.969
a it was a relief to me

671
00:20:05.970 --> 00:20:07.409
in a way, because I was writing

672
00:20:07.410 --> 00:20:09.689
about other other people,

673
00:20:09.690 --> 00:20:10.859
other people, other artists.

674
00:20:10.860 --> 00:20:11.879
And I think that quote you read,

675
00:20:11.880 --> 00:20:12.880
though, is really.

676
00:20:14.830 --> 00:20:15.969
I mean, I think people really do

677
00:20:15.970 --> 00:20:18.429
have a fantasy that,

678
00:20:18.430 --> 00:20:20.679
you know, we can,

679
00:20:20.680 --> 00:20:22.629
you know, just have intimacy with

680
00:20:22.630 --> 00:20:24.459
these places and fantasy and

681
00:20:24.460 --> 00:20:26.019
that every other tiny part of our

682
00:20:26.020 --> 00:20:27.639
life or be ethically buttoned up,

683
00:20:27.640 --> 00:20:28.899
you know, and we would still be able

684
00:20:28.900 --> 00:20:30.129
to produce all the art that comes

685
00:20:30.130 --> 00:20:31.329
from touching those places.

686
00:20:31.330 --> 00:20:32.409
And that just does not.

687
00:20:32.410 --> 00:20:34.479
You know, I mean, there may be

688
00:20:34.480 --> 00:20:36.039
a couple people I can think of like

689
00:20:36.040 --> 00:20:37.419
that, but generally speaking, that's

690
00:20:37.420 --> 00:20:38.769
not my experience at all.

691
00:20:40.510 --> 00:20:42.429
But what writers do you do you

692
00:20:42.430 --> 00:20:44.049
like that are horrible?

693
00:20:44.050 --> 00:20:44.679
That are horrible.

694
00:20:44.680 --> 00:20:45.459
People?

695
00:20:45.460 --> 00:20:46.899
Oh, I don't know.

696
00:20:46.900 --> 00:20:48.669
I don't know. I mean, you probably.

697
00:20:48.670 --> 00:20:49.449
Know a lot.

698
00:20:49.450 --> 00:20:50.529
You know.

699
00:20:50.530 --> 00:20:52.599
A lot. I know a lot.

700
00:20:52.600 --> 00:20:53.199
You know a.

701
00:20:53.200 --> 00:20:54.749
Lot. You can just leave it at that.

702
00:20:54.750 --> 00:20:56.739
I mean, the market is sad, you know,

703
00:20:56.740 --> 00:20:58.180
big get out of the market a

704
00:20:59.630 --> 00:21:01.329
lot there, I think about.

705
00:21:01.330 --> 00:21:02.539
Yeah, about his life.

706
00:21:02.540 --> 00:21:04.089
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

707
00:21:04.090 --> 00:21:06.339
Yeah. I'm reading a biography.

708
00:21:06.340 --> 00:21:07.029
Of that.

709
00:21:07.030 --> 00:21:07.299
Right.

710
00:21:07.300 --> 00:21:07.979
Now. Amazing.

711
00:21:07.980 --> 00:21:09.789
Yeah, it's just I kind of get them

712
00:21:09.790 --> 00:21:11.139
hate reading it, and it's not

713
00:21:11.140 --> 00:21:12.969
because I hate the author, not

714
00:21:12.970 --> 00:21:14.229
decide who.

715
00:21:14.230 --> 00:21:15.619
I don't know how I feel about it.

716
00:21:15.620 --> 00:21:18.279
It's just the author is really

717
00:21:18.280 --> 00:21:19.839
terrible. It feels like reading it.

718
00:21:19.840 --> 00:21:20.709
So.

719
00:21:20.710 --> 00:21:22.119
I mean, biographies are always like

720
00:21:22.120 --> 00:21:23.499
that. Like, you guess you're just

721
00:21:23.500 --> 00:21:24.669
like. I think they exist to be

722
00:21:24.670 --> 00:21:25.279
angry.

723
00:21:25.280 --> 00:21:26.379
I guess so.

724
00:21:26.380 --> 00:21:27.549
I don't. I really love reading, but

725
00:21:27.550 --> 00:21:29.049
like, I love like, the Jeanette

726
00:21:29.050 --> 00:21:30.459
biography that's like, that thick.

727
00:21:30.460 --> 00:21:31.749
Like, I actually prefer that to half

728
00:21:31.750 --> 00:21:33.129
of Janie's actual writings, just

729
00:21:33.130 --> 00:21:34.209
reading about his life.

730
00:21:34.210 --> 00:21:35.259
Yeah. I mean, I just finished the

731
00:21:35.260 --> 00:21:36.759
thousand page Plath biography and

732
00:21:36.760 --> 00:21:37.839
was kind of obsessed with it.

733
00:21:37.840 --> 00:21:39.459
Oh, I mean, but now with that.

734
00:21:39.460 --> 00:21:40.719
Topic, I know we're so off topic.

735
00:21:40.720 --> 00:21:43.149
Okay, let's get back to to Sex,

736
00:21:43.150 --> 00:21:44.919
the sex chapter, which I loved so

737
00:21:44.920 --> 00:21:46.899
much. And yeah, like you, it's

738
00:21:46.900 --> 00:21:48.189
The Ballad of Sexual Optimism.

739
00:21:48.190 --> 00:21:50.229
You quote these writers

740
00:21:50.230 --> 00:21:51.939
who are saying these wild things

741
00:21:51.940 --> 00:21:53.289
that I feel like I don't hear that

742
00:21:53.290 --> 00:21:55.479
often about how promiscuity

743
00:21:55.480 --> 00:21:57.549
can be a place of learning, that sex

744
00:21:57.550 --> 00:21:59.349
can be a means of moving towards

745
00:21:59.350 --> 00:22:00.879
pain and difficulty as if that's a

746
00:22:00.880 --> 00:22:01.779
good thing.

747
00:22:01.780 --> 00:22:03.219
Cause I feel like as a culture where

748
00:22:03.220 --> 00:22:05.229
we're obsessed with our sex, never

749
00:22:05.230 --> 00:22:06.669
having pain or difficulty, and if it

750
00:22:06.670 --> 00:22:08.289
does, what does that mean?

751
00:22:08.290 --> 00:22:10.299
And, you know, female

752
00:22:10.300 --> 00:22:12.279
sexuality almost being celebrated

753
00:22:12.280 --> 00:22:13.929
for being a site of trauma and

754
00:22:13.930 --> 00:22:15.849
danger, you know, as in

755
00:22:15.850 --> 00:22:17.799
spite as opposed

756
00:22:17.800 --> 00:22:19.749
to you have that great quote, which

757
00:22:19.750 --> 00:22:20.769
I actually didn't write down

758
00:22:20.770 --> 00:22:22.629
exactly. But that basically you

759
00:22:22.630 --> 00:22:24.609
could, for instance,

760
00:22:24.610 --> 00:22:26.469
enact sexual fantasies, see

761
00:22:26.470 --> 00:22:27.279
how they go.

762
00:22:27.280 --> 00:22:29.229
If you don't like them,

763
00:22:29.230 --> 00:22:30.609
think about them and try to unders

764
00:22:30.610 --> 00:22:32.919
it just felt so, like logical.

765
00:22:32.920 --> 00:22:34.959
And it made me realize that I don't

766
00:22:34.960 --> 00:22:37.179
see a lot of just plain spoken

767
00:22:37.180 --> 00:22:39.549
like, I don't know, liberated

768
00:22:39.550 --> 00:22:41.409
discourse about, you know, what

769
00:22:41.410 --> 00:22:43.179
it means to, you know, I don't know,

770
00:22:43.180 --> 00:22:44.919
be an if a person, a female of them

771
00:22:44.920 --> 00:22:46.959
and be an adventure

772
00:22:46.960 --> 00:22:48.969
seeker maybe sexually and maybe be

773
00:22:48.970 --> 00:22:50.889
okay with, you know, having

774
00:22:50.890 --> 00:22:52.569
doing something that's risky.

775
00:22:52.570 --> 00:22:53.439
Yeah.

776
00:22:53.440 --> 00:22:54.459
Yeah. And it's so.

777
00:22:55.620 --> 00:22:57.659
Anything. I mean, I think your work

778
00:22:57.660 --> 00:22:59.609
has been like holds

779
00:22:59.610 --> 00:23:01.199
that place in a really important

780
00:23:01.200 --> 00:23:03.179
way, you know, and speaks that out.

781
00:23:03.180 --> 00:23:04.260
And I think it's really.

782
00:23:06.530 --> 00:23:08.539
I mean, I think I

783
00:23:08.540 --> 00:23:10.729
knew that that chapter.

784
00:23:10.730 --> 00:23:11.730
Really.

785
00:23:13.320 --> 00:23:15.209
I think it's so scary for people to

786
00:23:15.210 --> 00:23:16.589
go into the space that you're just

787
00:23:16.590 --> 00:23:18.479
talking about. And I knew that

788
00:23:18.480 --> 00:23:19.769
the chapter, probably like some

789
00:23:19.770 --> 00:23:21.719
people reading on a kind of top

790
00:23:21.720 --> 00:23:23.669
line, will be rubbed the wrong

791
00:23:23.670 --> 00:23:24.599
way.

792
00:23:24.600 --> 00:23:26.729
But I really wouldn't have done it

793
00:23:26.730 --> 00:23:28.679
if I didn't believe, you

794
00:23:28.680 --> 00:23:30.809
know, really, truly and deeply like

795
00:23:30.810 --> 00:23:31.810
that,

796
00:23:33.300 --> 00:23:35.309
that the kinds of like

797
00:23:35.310 --> 00:23:37.649
sex negativity

798
00:23:37.650 --> 00:23:39.419
or puritanism like that we're kind

799
00:23:39.420 --> 00:23:41.159
of I see like every day that we're

800
00:23:41.160 --> 00:23:42.839
kind of backing into even with like

801
00:23:42.840 --> 00:23:43.840
good intentions

802
00:23:45.420 --> 00:23:47.669
are really is not the

803
00:23:47.670 --> 00:23:49.799
vision for like an emancipated,

804
00:23:49.800 --> 00:23:51.659
you know, like a feminist future

805
00:23:51.660 --> 00:23:54.059
that I deeply want and like and

806
00:23:54.060 --> 00:23:55.349
think is,

807
00:23:56.790 --> 00:23:58.529
you know, it's possible both, both.

808
00:23:58.530 --> 00:24:00.359
But I don't mean now, like

809
00:24:00.360 --> 00:24:01.739
everyone like Roe v Wade, like I

810
00:24:01.740 --> 00:24:03.029
don't mean like now in every way,

811
00:24:03.030 --> 00:24:04.500
every day. I just mean

812
00:24:06.150 --> 00:24:08.039
I think you and I share this too.

813
00:24:08.040 --> 00:24:09.539
Like when you were when we were

814
00:24:09.540 --> 00:24:11.609
coming up, like people

815
00:24:11.610 --> 00:24:13.619
like Amber Hollow or Arlene Miles

816
00:24:13.620 --> 00:24:16.529
or all the, you know, sex radicals,

817
00:24:16.530 --> 00:24:18.749
especially active in HIV, AIDS

818
00:24:18.750 --> 00:24:20.639
and fighting for sex,

819
00:24:20.640 --> 00:24:22.319
even when it was, you know,

820
00:24:22.320 --> 00:24:23.489
potentially fatal.

821
00:24:23.490 --> 00:24:25.469
And when the when the war was

822
00:24:25.470 --> 00:24:27.779
really on about

823
00:24:27.780 --> 00:24:29.609
Puritanism and, you know, and the

824
00:24:29.610 --> 00:24:31.649
stakes were really high, I think

825
00:24:31.650 --> 00:24:33.479
the the kinds of things that

826
00:24:33.480 --> 00:24:34.529
you were saying, like they were

827
00:24:34.530 --> 00:24:35.999
saying, and I'm quoting in that

828
00:24:36.000 --> 00:24:38.339
chapter, made me so brave

829
00:24:38.340 --> 00:24:40.589
and kept me from

830
00:24:40.590 --> 00:24:42.839
harm and pain I could have

831
00:24:42.840 --> 00:24:44.879
caused myself, by the way,

832
00:24:44.880 --> 00:24:46.020
that I thought about,

833
00:24:47.250 --> 00:24:48.959
like, you know, encounters or

834
00:24:48.960 --> 00:24:50.009
adventures.

835
00:24:50.010 --> 00:24:51.839
And I feel I just feel really

836
00:24:51.840 --> 00:24:54.149
grateful that they

837
00:24:54.150 --> 00:24:55.829
were there and that they were so

838
00:24:55.830 --> 00:24:57.689
brave and that they spoke so much.

839
00:24:57.690 --> 00:24:59.519
And I really do feel like we're

840
00:24:59.520 --> 00:25:01.109
I mean, it's all kind of a pendulum,

841
00:25:01.110 --> 00:25:02.400
So I'm not against

842
00:25:03.480 --> 00:25:05.279
it's not like a lot of people have

843
00:25:05.280 --> 00:25:06.609
talked about that chapter in a book

844
00:25:06.610 --> 00:25:07.559
like you're, you know, so you're

845
00:25:07.560 --> 00:25:08.609
really not a fan of me, too.

846
00:25:08.610 --> 00:25:09.659
And I'm like, I never said that.

847
00:25:09.660 --> 00:25:11.249
Like, it's not that's not the point.

848
00:25:11.250 --> 00:25:13.049
It's not a fan or not a fan or

849
00:25:13.050 --> 00:25:13.919
thumbs up, thumbs down.

850
00:25:13.920 --> 00:25:16.349
It's not the point. It's more like

851
00:25:16.350 --> 00:25:18.359
trying to look just

852
00:25:18.360 --> 00:25:19.559
always trying to keep a very

853
00:25:19.560 --> 00:25:21.689
critical eye on whether

854
00:25:21.690 --> 00:25:23.969
or not we're making space,

855
00:25:23.970 --> 00:25:25.949
you know, for forms of

856
00:25:25.950 --> 00:25:27.899
sexual experience, activity, desire

857
00:25:27.900 --> 00:25:29.759
that are non shaming, that

858
00:25:29.760 --> 00:25:31.769
don't incarcerate people

859
00:25:31.770 --> 00:25:33.539
or push them outside of an ethical

860
00:25:33.540 --> 00:25:35.249
circle when that's not necessary,

861
00:25:35.250 --> 00:25:36.749
you know, just lots of things.

862
00:25:36.750 --> 00:25:37.559
So, yeah.

863
00:25:37.560 --> 00:25:39.389
Yeah, it's it's very daring

864
00:25:39.390 --> 00:25:41.099
of you to write it all, but I felt

865
00:25:41.100 --> 00:25:42.659
super seen by it.

866
00:25:42.660 --> 00:25:43.660
I loved it.

867
00:25:44.490 --> 00:25:46.319
And I wanted to know, like, are

868
00:25:46.320 --> 00:25:48.299
there any beacons of sexual freedom

869
00:25:48.300 --> 00:25:49.919
that look inspiring and strong to

870
00:25:49.920 --> 00:25:50.920
you right now?

871
00:25:52.730 --> 00:25:54.329
I know by Beacon you mean like.

872
00:25:54.330 --> 00:25:56.159
Like, I don't know, just standing

873
00:25:56.160 --> 00:25:56.399
out.

874
00:25:56.400 --> 00:25:57.269
There in the culture that you're

875
00:25:57.270 --> 00:25:59.189
like, Yeah, that is

876
00:25:59.190 --> 00:26:00.839
cool. That's cool.

877
00:26:00.840 --> 00:26:03.329
That makes me feel happy.

878
00:26:03.330 --> 00:26:04.330
You know.

879
00:26:05.580 --> 00:26:06.580
Hm.

880
00:26:07.080 --> 00:26:09.329
I mean, no, I mean, I generally

881
00:26:09.330 --> 00:26:10.829
I mean, that chapter is called The

882
00:26:10.830 --> 00:26:12.359
Ballad of Sexual Optimism, and

883
00:26:12.360 --> 00:26:13.589
obviously there's a, you know, a

884
00:26:13.590 --> 00:26:15.449
play on both and then Golden, but

885
00:26:15.450 --> 00:26:17.279
also a play on,

886
00:26:17.280 --> 00:26:18.659
you know, a ballad and optimism

887
00:26:18.660 --> 00:26:19.739
don't always go together.

888
00:26:19.740 --> 00:26:21.659
So, like, that was kind of the point

889
00:26:21.660 --> 00:26:23.609
was to hit this chord, you know, But

890
00:26:23.610 --> 00:26:25.709
the chord, which has the ballad

891
00:26:25.710 --> 00:26:26.879
in there, which acknowledges the

892
00:26:26.880 --> 00:26:28.649
pain and it acknowledges the songs

893
00:26:28.650 --> 00:26:30.809
that we have to sing of the pain,

894
00:26:30.810 --> 00:26:32.459
you know, in some terms to make it

895
00:26:32.460 --> 00:26:33.460
tolerable.

896
00:26:34.530 --> 00:26:36.269
But it also has optimism, peace, And

897
00:26:36.270 --> 00:26:38.249
like I am an optimist, you know,

898
00:26:38.250 --> 00:26:40.259
I know like, sue me,

899
00:26:40.260 --> 00:26:41.219
you know, like by nature.

900
00:26:41.220 --> 00:26:43.049
So I think that I,

901
00:26:43.050 --> 00:26:44.849
I mean, I was watching I know if any

902
00:26:44.850 --> 00:26:45.929
of my students are here, but we were

903
00:26:45.930 --> 00:26:47.189
watching some of I am Not your

904
00:26:47.190 --> 00:26:48.809
Negro. The irony, the documentary on

905
00:26:48.810 --> 00:26:50.669
Baldwin And, you know, he just says,

906
00:26:50.670 --> 00:26:52.289
I'm an optimist because I'm I'm

907
00:26:52.290 --> 00:26:53.969
alive, you know, And I just it's

908
00:26:53.970 --> 00:26:56.129
like I think that I'm alive.

909
00:26:56.130 --> 00:26:57.029
So I'm an optimist.

910
00:26:57.030 --> 00:26:58.619
And I think that's all that meaning.

911
00:26:58.620 --> 00:27:00.729
I think we are going there are good

912
00:27:00.730 --> 00:27:01.889
there are a lot of good things

913
00:27:01.890 --> 00:27:02.909
happening right now. I mean, you and

914
00:27:02.910 --> 00:27:04.079
I both have young kids.

915
00:27:04.080 --> 00:27:06.269
And I think I mean,

916
00:27:06.270 --> 00:27:08.249
despite what you know,

917
00:27:08.250 --> 00:27:10.259
all the what, you know,

918
00:27:10.260 --> 00:27:11.260
whatever.

919
00:27:12.300 --> 00:27:14.279
All those people want to

920
00:27:14.280 --> 00:27:16.769
make us feel, you know, they

921
00:27:18.030 --> 00:27:20.129
you know, what they see as this

922
00:27:20.130 --> 00:27:21.929
grand, horrifying, mutilating

923
00:27:21.930 --> 00:27:23.549
experiment. You know, I would

924
00:27:23.550 --> 00:27:25.949
imagine that we see as like

925
00:27:25.950 --> 00:27:27.629
a gift of what sometimes is

926
00:27:27.630 --> 00:27:29.249
bewildering, but completely and

927
00:27:29.250 --> 00:27:32.009
totally new emancipation

928
00:27:32.010 --> 00:27:33.539
around ways of thinking and growing

929
00:27:33.540 --> 00:27:34.679
up around sex and gender.

930
00:27:34.680 --> 00:27:36.119
I think it's totally exciting.

931
00:27:36.120 --> 00:27:38.189
And I think

932
00:27:38.190 --> 00:27:40.499
that there's no silver lining

933
00:27:40.500 --> 00:27:41.669
like whatsoever.

934
00:27:41.670 --> 00:27:44.879
Full stop about the Roe

935
00:27:44.880 --> 00:27:45.880
overturning.

936
00:27:47.100 --> 00:27:49.319
But I am hopeful

937
00:27:49.320 --> 00:27:51.809
that as we fight

938
00:27:51.810 --> 00:27:53.879
for what's next, that

939
00:27:53.880 --> 00:27:55.529
instead of this kind of,

940
00:27:57.000 --> 00:27:59.309
you know, apologist

941
00:27:59.310 --> 00:28:00.599
thinking about.

942
00:28:02.520 --> 00:28:04.559
About unwanted pregnancies

943
00:28:04.560 --> 00:28:06.539
and and whatnot, that

944
00:28:06.540 --> 00:28:07.540
we will.

945
00:28:08.910 --> 00:28:09.959
And this is partly what this

946
00:28:09.960 --> 00:28:11.699
chapter's trying to do and other

947
00:28:11.700 --> 00:28:12.789
people are trying to do.

948
00:28:12.790 --> 00:28:14.609
And I'm hopeful that we will get

949
00:28:14.610 --> 00:28:16.229
to a place where we're moving

950
00:28:16.230 --> 00:28:18.089
forward with more options and more

951
00:28:18.090 --> 00:28:20.250
emancipated thinking as opposed to

952
00:28:21.270 --> 00:28:23.579
the kind of sex negativity backwater

953
00:28:23.580 --> 00:28:24.899
which kind of says like, you know

954
00:28:24.900 --> 00:28:26.159
what I mean? This is what my chapter

955
00:28:26.160 --> 00:28:27.329
kind of starts off with, this kind

956
00:28:27.330 --> 00:28:29.249
of like I mean, I feel

957
00:28:29.250 --> 00:28:30.539
for it. I'm making fun of it at the

958
00:28:30.540 --> 00:28:31.919
moment, but I'm not really I

959
00:28:31.920 --> 00:28:32.759
actually feel for it.

960
00:28:32.760 --> 00:28:34.109
But this kind of new narrative

961
00:28:34.110 --> 00:28:36.329
developing, which can be a place

962
00:28:36.330 --> 00:28:37.920
where some, you know,

963
00:28:38.970 --> 00:28:40.799
some feminists, you know, me,

964
00:28:40.800 --> 00:28:43.109
some right wing like anti-feminist

965
00:28:43.110 --> 00:28:45.149
of kind of like you promised us

966
00:28:45.150 --> 00:28:47.249
the sexual revolution, you promised

967
00:28:47.250 --> 00:28:48.479
us liberation. You know what?

968
00:28:48.480 --> 00:28:50.069
It sucks. Like, it's not good out

969
00:28:50.070 --> 00:28:51.149
here, you know?

970
00:28:51.150 --> 00:28:52.349
And some people are like, Oh, I

971
00:28:52.350 --> 00:28:53.729
guess we should do trad wife, you

972
00:28:53.730 --> 00:28:55.229
know, or whatever. Their their

973
00:28:55.230 --> 00:28:57.089
solution to that problem is

974
00:28:57.090 --> 00:28:58.439
the other people are more like, it's

975
00:28:58.440 --> 00:28:59.519
not good enough yet.

976
00:28:59.520 --> 00:29:01.649
Okay, but, but the,

977
00:29:01.650 --> 00:29:03.179
but insofar as those things are

978
00:29:03.180 --> 00:29:05.159
meeting on a kind of like maybe

979
00:29:05.160 --> 00:29:07.139
we shouldn't have had all

980
00:29:07.140 --> 00:29:08.759
of that liberation because it didn't

981
00:29:08.760 --> 00:29:10.229
turn out, I mean, that to me is just

982
00:29:10.230 --> 00:29:11.549
completely wrongheaded.

983
00:29:11.550 --> 00:29:12.479
And so, yeah.

984
00:29:12.480 --> 00:29:14.279
I feel like there's always been that

985
00:29:14.280 --> 00:29:16.589
weird strain of feminism,

986
00:29:16.590 --> 00:29:17.999
though, that has been anti-sex.

987
00:29:18.000 --> 00:29:19.559
And I feel like when you were

988
00:29:19.560 --> 00:29:21.329
talking about like the era that

989
00:29:21.330 --> 00:29:22.859
maybe we came of age and sort of in

990
00:29:22.860 --> 00:29:24.869
the nineties, I feel like the people

991
00:29:24.870 --> 00:29:26.099
that were just ahead of me that were

992
00:29:26.100 --> 00:29:27.809
like a generation above me had

993
00:29:27.810 --> 00:29:29.789
survived like the lesbian sex wars.

994
00:29:29.790 --> 00:29:31.529
And so they were like, We want let's

995
00:29:31.530 --> 00:29:33.119
fuck. They were just like, sex, sex,

996
00:29:33.120 --> 00:29:34.859
sex. We're going to have bathrooms

997
00:29:34.860 --> 00:29:36.449
like the fags going to, like, do it.

998
00:29:36.450 --> 00:29:38.069
And I was like, Well, okay, you

999
00:29:38.070 --> 00:29:39.929
know, and I, I had like, come to

1000
00:29:39.930 --> 00:29:41.759
San Francisco after

1001
00:29:41.760 --> 00:29:43.499
just like the only there weren't any

1002
00:29:43.500 --> 00:29:45.419
books out at that point for me

1003
00:29:45.420 --> 00:29:46.529
to be like, oh, there was lesbian

1004
00:29:46.530 --> 00:29:48.569
sex wars and maybe the sexy Lesbians

1005
00:29:48.570 --> 00:29:49.859
one. I was reading all the second

1006
00:29:49.860 --> 00:29:51.959
wave feminism, so I was like, okay,

1007
00:29:51.960 --> 00:29:53.369
I guess all penetration, rape.

1008
00:29:53.370 --> 00:29:54.839
Okay, All right, cool.

1009
00:29:54.840 --> 00:29:56.069
I'm going to I'm going to move to

1010
00:29:56.070 --> 00:29:57.239
San Francisco now.

1011
00:29:57.240 --> 00:29:58.589
And I moved to San Francisco and

1012
00:29:58.590 --> 00:30:00.419
there's these like, these, like

1013
00:30:00.420 --> 00:30:02.159
leather dikes fisting each other,

1014
00:30:02.160 --> 00:30:03.329
literally on the dance floor.

1015
00:30:03.330 --> 00:30:04.889
And I was like, okay, you know, I

1016
00:30:04.890 --> 00:30:06.719
just was like immediately just

1017
00:30:06.720 --> 00:30:08.489
like, I don't know, you know?

1018
00:30:08.490 --> 00:30:10.349
And so that was my point of

1019
00:30:10.350 --> 00:30:12.659
talking about that mean, you know,

1020
00:30:12.660 --> 00:30:13.889
I mean, I don't know, like, there's

1021
00:30:13.890 --> 00:30:15.449
always been and, you know, there's

1022
00:30:15.450 --> 00:30:17.339
always been that sort of like I

1023
00:30:17.340 --> 00:30:19.499
just feel like it can be

1024
00:30:19.500 --> 00:30:21.449
I can't tell whether it's really

1025
00:30:21.450 --> 00:30:23.429
depressing or if it sort

1026
00:30:23.430 --> 00:30:25.409
of lightens the situation

1027
00:30:25.410 --> 00:30:26.639
a little bit to know that these are

1028
00:30:26.640 --> 00:30:27.599
the same struggles that have been

1029
00:30:27.600 --> 00:30:29.279
going on for fucking ever.

1030
00:30:29.280 --> 00:30:31.199
I mean, it's it's disheartening

1031
00:30:31.200 --> 00:30:32.699
to feel like we haven't moved

1032
00:30:32.700 --> 00:30:33.809
forward, but clearly we have.

1033
00:30:33.810 --> 00:30:34.829
Like there's been so many things

1034
00:30:34.830 --> 00:30:36.479
that have changed, but there's

1035
00:30:36.480 --> 00:30:38.429
always it's like the eternal,

1036
00:30:38.430 --> 00:30:39.839
you know, battle of good and evil or

1037
00:30:39.840 --> 00:30:41.309
something in different kind of

1038
00:30:41.310 --> 00:30:43.259
guises. And there is

1039
00:30:43.260 --> 00:30:44.879
always, you know, that sort of

1040
00:30:44.880 --> 00:30:47.159
strain of feminism that does

1041
00:30:47.160 --> 00:30:49.019
fit really neatly with, you know,

1042
00:30:49.020 --> 00:30:50.909
conservatism.

1043
00:30:50.910 --> 00:30:51.910
Yeah, And I think.

1044
00:30:52.900 --> 00:30:54.279
You know, I think running through

1045
00:30:54.280 --> 00:30:56.259
all of my books and this

1046
00:30:56.260 --> 00:30:57.969
one, too, we're not all of them, but

1047
00:30:57.970 --> 00:30:59.859
a lot of them have this.

1048
00:30:59.860 --> 00:31:02.349
Actually, I think you quote

1049
00:31:02.350 --> 00:31:04.269
this somewhere, not in this,

1050
00:31:04.270 --> 00:31:05.439
but I'm trying something I read of

1051
00:31:05.440 --> 00:31:06.609
yours recently. Maybe it was an

1052
00:31:06.610 --> 00:31:09.129
against memoir about storytelling

1053
00:31:09.130 --> 00:31:10.479
and about like the dangers of

1054
00:31:10.480 --> 00:31:11.679
telling ourselves stories.

1055
00:31:11.680 --> 00:31:12.249
I love.

1056
00:31:12.250 --> 00:31:14.139
I love You're so good at

1057
00:31:14.140 --> 00:31:15.459
checking yourself like you won't let

1058
00:31:15.460 --> 00:31:16.899
yourself get away with anything.

1059
00:31:16.900 --> 00:31:18.429
You know what I mean? I was like,

1060
00:31:18.430 --> 00:31:19.329
not letting herself go with

1061
00:31:19.330 --> 00:31:20.649
anything. I can't either.

1062
00:31:20.650 --> 00:31:20.919
No.

1063
00:31:20.920 --> 00:31:22.219
Well, I think. I think I was just

1064
00:31:22.220 --> 00:31:23.379
going to say through a lot of books,

1065
00:31:23.380 --> 00:31:24.380
I think that there's.

1066
00:31:27.470 --> 00:31:28.999
You know, there's this paradox of

1067
00:31:29.000 --> 00:31:30.619
especially when I moved out of just

1068
00:31:30.620 --> 00:31:32.479
writing lyric poetry and into things

1069
00:31:32.480 --> 00:31:34.489
that my, you know,

1070
00:31:34.490 --> 00:31:36.349
had to work a little bit more with,

1071
00:31:36.350 --> 00:31:38.209
with narrative was like, you're

1072
00:31:38.210 --> 00:31:39.379
you never going to get out of

1073
00:31:39.380 --> 00:31:40.549
telling the story. That's not like a

1074
00:31:40.550 --> 00:31:42.199
possibility.

1075
00:31:42.200 --> 00:31:43.200
And yet

1076
00:31:44.150 --> 00:31:45.150
that kind of,

1077
00:31:47.420 --> 00:31:49.279
you know, intense attention to

1078
00:31:49.280 --> 00:31:51.019
what what are the pre or what are

1079
00:31:51.020 --> 00:31:52.519
the pre given stories and then what

1080
00:31:52.520 --> 00:31:53.939
is the one I'm creating here?

1081
00:31:53.940 --> 00:31:55.699
Am I talking myself into something

1082
00:31:55.700 --> 00:31:56.909
or what are the holes of this?

1083
00:31:56.910 --> 00:31:58.789
And I think that's why The

1084
00:31:58.790 --> 00:32:00.939
Ballad of Sexual Dependency,

1085
00:32:00.940 --> 00:32:01.939
I'm sorry, The Ballad of Sexual

1086
00:32:01.940 --> 00:32:03.679
Optimism starts off.

1087
00:32:03.680 --> 00:32:05.149
I think the first line of it is a

1088
00:32:05.150 --> 00:32:07.009
story, a story we are told or

1089
00:32:07.010 --> 00:32:08.899
something, and then it moves

1090
00:32:08.900 --> 00:32:09.900
into.

1091
00:32:11.620 --> 00:32:14.799
Like an essay about

1092
00:32:14.800 --> 00:32:16.269
a story that you like.

1093
00:32:16.270 --> 00:32:17.379
The bummer story.

1094
00:32:17.380 --> 00:32:18.669
The story that like we were promised

1095
00:32:18.670 --> 00:32:20.379
all this and it never came.

1096
00:32:20.380 --> 00:32:21.219
And now what?

1097
00:32:21.220 --> 00:32:23.439
You know that story about feminism.

1098
00:32:23.440 --> 00:32:25.479
And I and I say, you know,

1099
00:32:25.480 --> 00:32:26.769
pretty quickly in that chapter,

1100
00:32:26.770 --> 00:32:27.770
like.

1101
00:32:29.260 --> 00:32:30.639
Because the book is about freedom,

1102
00:32:30.640 --> 00:32:31.509
that, you know, this is part of the

1103
00:32:31.510 --> 00:32:32.469
problem of the stories of

1104
00:32:32.470 --> 00:32:33.639
liberation, is a story of

1105
00:32:33.640 --> 00:32:35.349
liberation, always has a comedown.

1106
00:32:35.350 --> 00:32:37.539
And the comedown is always like

1107
00:32:37.540 --> 00:32:38.679
we thought we emancipated.

1108
00:32:38.680 --> 00:32:39.909
Now it's not as good as we thought

1109
00:32:39.910 --> 00:32:41.109
because there isn't I mean, in my

1110
00:32:41.110 --> 00:32:42.759
opinion, there's not, you know, the

1111
00:32:42.760 --> 00:32:43.659
Promised land.

1112
00:32:43.660 --> 00:32:44.619
I don't know if it's when you're

1113
00:32:44.620 --> 00:32:46.029
dead or whatever, but it's not here,

1114
00:32:46.030 --> 00:32:47.739
you know, here we are here with each

1115
00:32:47.740 --> 00:32:49.089
other. We're in the muck, you know,

1116
00:32:49.090 --> 00:32:50.229
this is it.

1117
00:32:50.230 --> 00:32:52.689
And and so

1118
00:32:52.690 --> 00:32:54.009
I'm not saying it can't be made

1119
00:32:54.010 --> 00:32:55.989
better, but I think this

1120
00:32:55.990 --> 00:32:57.669
idea that sex will, you know,

1121
00:32:57.670 --> 00:32:59.139
someday the scales will fall from

1122
00:32:59.140 --> 00:33:00.519
our eyes and we'll just have good

1123
00:33:00.520 --> 00:33:02.499
sex to me is just just doesn't make

1124
00:33:02.500 --> 00:33:04.389
any sense whatsoever, you know,

1125
00:33:04.390 --> 00:33:05.379
at all.

1126
00:33:05.380 --> 00:33:07.749
And so I think it's

1127
00:33:07.750 --> 00:33:09.309
I think it's really important to

1128
00:33:09.310 --> 00:33:11.259
keep a keen eye on the you know,

1129
00:33:11.260 --> 00:33:12.369
on whether that's why I was kind of

1130
00:33:12.370 --> 00:33:13.510
trying to say before about

1131
00:33:15.130 --> 00:33:16.359
harming ourselves, like whether or

1132
00:33:16.360 --> 00:33:17.769
not we're actually harming ourselves

1133
00:33:17.770 --> 00:33:18.759
with certain stories about

1134
00:33:18.760 --> 00:33:20.889
liberation that

1135
00:33:20.890 --> 00:33:22.959
are setting us up for

1136
00:33:22.960 --> 00:33:25.119
demoralization, despair, failure,

1137
00:33:25.120 --> 00:33:26.259
paralysis.

1138
00:33:26.260 --> 00:33:27.459
And that's especially true, you

1139
00:33:27.460 --> 00:33:29.079
know, in the chapter on climate as

1140
00:33:29.080 --> 00:33:30.369
well.

1141
00:33:30.370 --> 00:33:31.599
And yeah.

1142
00:33:33.410 --> 00:33:35.539
You kind of as you draw to a close

1143
00:33:35.540 --> 00:33:37.249
on this next chapter, you start

1144
00:33:37.250 --> 00:33:38.929
talking about Buddhism.

1145
00:33:38.930 --> 00:33:40.789
And and I love how you

1146
00:33:40.790 --> 00:33:42.079
talk about the Zen koan, which is

1147
00:33:42.080 --> 00:33:43.279
just like this, unsolvable.

1148
00:33:43.280 --> 00:33:44.569
You guys know what that is like this

1149
00:33:44.570 --> 00:33:46.549
unsolvable riddle

1150
00:33:46.550 --> 00:33:47.989
and which I feel like so much of

1151
00:33:47.990 --> 00:33:48.829
what you're talking about is an

1152
00:33:48.830 --> 00:33:50.449
unsolvable riddle. Like we can't get

1153
00:33:50.450 --> 00:33:52.309
to that place that we think that we

1154
00:33:52.310 --> 00:33:53.179
are aiming for.

1155
00:33:53.180 --> 00:33:55.039
Like it's got to be okay that we

1156
00:33:55.040 --> 00:33:56.749
land someplace else and become

1157
00:33:56.750 --> 00:33:58.640
curious about that.

1158
00:33:59.690 --> 00:34:01.219
In your list, you list all the

1159
00:34:01.220 --> 00:34:03.319
towns, all the cones, such as,

1160
00:34:03.320 --> 00:34:05.059
quote, our desire to treat everyone

1161
00:34:05.060 --> 00:34:06.709
with compassion and kindness and

1162
00:34:06.710 --> 00:34:08.089
forgiveness and to throw harmful

1163
00:34:08.090 --> 00:34:10.579
assholes off a cliff is a big cone.

1164
00:34:10.580 --> 00:34:11.718
It's like there's this whole sort of

1165
00:34:11.719 --> 00:34:12.738
like thing, all the things that are

1166
00:34:12.739 --> 00:34:14.299
the big cones.

1167
00:34:14.300 --> 00:34:15.649
And it just makes so much sense to

1168
00:34:15.650 --> 00:34:16.759
me that you ended the chapter there,

1169
00:34:16.760 --> 00:34:17.718
because I really feel like when

1170
00:34:17.719 --> 00:34:19.189
everything else fails, there's

1171
00:34:19.190 --> 00:34:21.289
Buddhism, and it made me

1172
00:34:21.290 --> 00:34:23.299
really want to know more

1173
00:34:23.300 --> 00:34:25.459
about your relationship to Buddhism.

1174
00:34:25.460 --> 00:34:26.460
Yeah.

1175
00:34:31.620 --> 00:34:32.879
Yeah. I mean, I think.

1176
00:34:32.880 --> 00:34:34.529
Well, it was funny because I was.

1177
00:34:37.040 --> 00:34:38.040
I didn't really.

1178
00:34:39.370 --> 00:34:40.698
You know, put it at the forefront.

1179
00:34:40.699 --> 00:34:42.579
But but it was interesting to me

1180
00:34:42.580 --> 00:34:43.988
that the that the strain of

1181
00:34:43.989 --> 00:34:45.158
Buddhism, I was kind of doing a lot

1182
00:34:45.159 --> 00:34:46.899
of reading in and doing like, you

1183
00:34:46.900 --> 00:34:48.849
know, attending sessions and

1184
00:34:50.320 --> 00:34:51.908
also had like a big sex scandal

1185
00:34:51.909 --> 00:34:54.428
while I was writing this chapter.

1186
00:34:54.429 --> 00:34:56.829
So that became a really interesting,

1187
00:34:56.830 --> 00:34:57.669
you know, place.

1188
00:34:57.670 --> 00:35:00.249
And as I watched the sex scandal

1189
00:35:00.250 --> 00:35:01.809
unfold in the pages of The New York

1190
00:35:01.810 --> 00:35:03.339
Times and I read I read the whole

1191
00:35:03.340 --> 00:35:05.139
file and I can't recall Project

1192
00:35:05.140 --> 00:35:07.209
Sunshine. I read, I read everything.

1193
00:35:07.210 --> 00:35:09.189
And you know, this,

1194
00:35:09.190 --> 00:35:10.190
this.

1195
00:35:11.200 --> 00:35:12.609
You know, a lot of people felt

1196
00:35:12.610 --> 00:35:14.709
really angry.

1197
00:35:14.710 --> 00:35:16.389
I mean, this is a common thing, you

1198
00:35:16.390 --> 00:35:17.949
know, that people who are.

1199
00:35:20.470 --> 00:35:22.509
I mean, it's not it's

1200
00:35:22.510 --> 00:35:24.009
a special circumstance like why

1201
00:35:24.010 --> 00:35:25.149
these people felt betrayed.

1202
00:35:25.150 --> 00:35:26.709
But I think it's but it comes up in

1203
00:35:26.710 --> 00:35:28.269
Buddhism in general, which is like.

1204
00:35:30.880 --> 00:35:31.880
You know,

1205
00:35:32.980 --> 00:35:35.049
a real concern about what happens

1206
00:35:35.050 --> 00:35:37.149
if we let go of things like blame

1207
00:35:37.150 --> 00:35:38.529
or right and wrong or

1208
00:35:38.530 --> 00:35:40.419
accountability.

1209
00:35:40.420 --> 00:35:41.829
Like holding others accountable,

1210
00:35:41.830 --> 00:35:43.840
like a lot of the principles that

1211
00:35:44.860 --> 00:35:45.860
are very

1212
00:35:47.830 --> 00:35:49.359
that are very deeply interrogated,

1213
00:35:49.360 --> 00:35:51.339
if not discouraged in Buddhism,

1214
00:35:51.340 --> 00:35:54.069
that are very high,

1215
00:35:54.070 --> 00:35:56.739
highly valued in other spheres.

1216
00:35:56.740 --> 00:35:58.779
And the sex scandal

1217
00:35:58.780 --> 00:36:01.149
there was, you know, really pitting

1218
00:36:02.560 --> 00:36:04.389
those two ideologies

1219
00:36:04.390 --> 00:36:05.259
against each other.

1220
00:36:05.260 --> 00:36:06.129
And I thought it was very

1221
00:36:06.130 --> 00:36:08.049
fascinating to watch play out

1222
00:36:08.050 --> 00:36:09.879
because, as you just say, neither.

1223
00:36:09.880 --> 00:36:11.259
It wasn't that.

1224
00:36:11.260 --> 00:36:13.089
It wasn't that one was right.

1225
00:36:13.090 --> 00:36:14.889
Like they both like

1226
00:36:16.210 --> 00:36:17.739
it. It wasn't

1227
00:36:19.900 --> 00:36:22.239
like you.

1228
00:36:22.240 --> 00:36:23.679
It wasn't like all the Buddhist

1229
00:36:23.680 --> 00:36:25.330
teachings were just like,

1230
00:36:26.770 --> 00:36:29.199
you know, a toxic miasma

1231
00:36:29.200 --> 00:36:31.119
meant to cover, you know, bad

1232
00:36:31.120 --> 00:36:32.559
behavior. That's not that's not

1233
00:36:32.560 --> 00:36:34.899
accurate, but that is how

1234
00:36:34.900 --> 00:36:36.669
some people may have treated them

1235
00:36:36.670 --> 00:36:37.989
and how some people may have felt

1236
00:36:37.990 --> 00:36:39.189
about them. You know what I mean?

1237
00:36:39.190 --> 00:36:40.689
Like, there was a lot going on

1238
00:36:40.690 --> 00:36:42.069
anyway. So I think I was thinking

1239
00:36:42.070 --> 00:36:44.229
about all that when I was finishing

1240
00:36:44.230 --> 00:36:46.389
that chapter and thinking about,

1241
00:36:48.160 --> 00:36:50.259
yeah, how, how, how I it's

1242
00:36:50.260 --> 00:36:52.089
not, it's not to say there isn't

1243
00:36:52.090 --> 00:36:53.919
like right action are, there is

1244
00:36:53.920 --> 00:36:55.869
an ethical action, but the

1245
00:36:55.870 --> 00:36:57.399
interrogation of it which is kind of

1246
00:36:57.400 --> 00:36:58.209
what you're saying about the

1247
00:36:58.210 --> 00:36:59.949
questions that don't have answers

1248
00:36:59.950 --> 00:37:01.059
goes on you know.

1249
00:37:01.060 --> 00:37:02.060
Yeah.

1250
00:37:02.500 --> 00:37:04.329
So you teach and because

1251
00:37:04.330 --> 00:37:06.189
you teach, you are in close contact

1252
00:37:06.190 --> 00:37:08.259
with young adults and privy

1253
00:37:08.260 --> 00:37:09.819
to their opinions and concerns.

1254
00:37:09.820 --> 00:37:11.079
And I want to know if you could tell

1255
00:37:11.080 --> 00:37:12.080
us how the youth are doing.

1256
00:37:14.130 --> 00:37:15.419
Oh, there's youth here already.

1257
00:37:15.420 --> 00:37:16.409
My students here.

1258
00:37:16.410 --> 00:37:17.699
Let us hear those.

1259
00:37:17.700 --> 00:37:20.669
And I think it's all right.

1260
00:37:20.670 --> 00:37:22.649
As much as you can speak for, you

1261
00:37:22.650 --> 00:37:24.269
know, a demographic.

1262
00:37:24.270 --> 00:37:26.219
I just read someone just forwarded

1263
00:37:26.220 --> 00:37:27.119
me an article.

1264
00:37:27.120 --> 00:37:29.039
I can't wait. It's called the

1265
00:37:29.040 --> 00:37:30.239
End of. It's called The Trouble with

1266
00:37:30.240 --> 00:37:31.259
the Youth. The Song by Mary

1267
00:37:31.260 --> 00:37:33.059
Gaitskill. Have you read this piece?

1268
00:37:33.060 --> 00:37:35.099
No, no, but I want to.

1269
00:37:35.100 --> 00:37:37.169
I You have to, like, get a code,

1270
00:37:37.170 --> 00:37:38.849
but I'll send it to you later on.

1271
00:37:41.980 --> 00:37:43.179
Yeah, I don't know. I mean, this is,

1272
00:37:43.180 --> 00:37:44.229
you know, when you and I are both,

1273
00:37:44.230 --> 00:37:45.519
you know, moms as well.

1274
00:37:45.520 --> 00:37:47.559
So I think it's like a

1275
00:37:47.560 --> 00:37:49.239
it's a multifaceted question.

1276
00:37:49.240 --> 00:37:50.319
I mean, I guess I'll just answer it

1277
00:37:50.320 --> 00:37:51.759
in a way. Maybe it's like a Buddhist

1278
00:37:51.760 --> 00:37:53.379
way of answering it, but I guess I

1279
00:37:53.380 --> 00:37:54.469
would just get by. Not answer.

1280
00:37:54.470 --> 00:37:55.359
Yeah, I guess so.

1281
00:37:55.360 --> 00:37:56.259
But but it's not.

1282
00:37:56.260 --> 00:37:57.729
It's a paradox, but I think it's

1283
00:37:57.730 --> 00:38:00.309
okay because I think that,

1284
00:38:00.310 --> 00:38:02.199
um, I think, I

1285
00:38:02.200 --> 00:38:03.129
think that there are modes of

1286
00:38:03.130 --> 00:38:05.529
suffering going on that are new

1287
00:38:05.530 --> 00:38:06.819
and that are particular and that

1288
00:38:06.820 --> 00:38:08.679
need to be attended to in all of

1289
00:38:08.680 --> 00:38:10.509
their particularity, you know,

1290
00:38:10.510 --> 00:38:11.769
and that they don't need people

1291
00:38:11.770 --> 00:38:12.939
don't need to be told like it's

1292
00:38:12.940 --> 00:38:14.289
always been like this or you'll get

1293
00:38:14.290 --> 00:38:15.769
over it or it was worse for me or

1294
00:38:15.770 --> 00:38:17.229
imagine if you were, you know, born

1295
00:38:17.230 --> 00:38:18.879
into a, you know, feudal system or

1296
00:38:18.880 --> 00:38:20.319
whatever. People tell people like

1297
00:38:20.320 --> 00:38:22.089
none of that is what is called for,

1298
00:38:22.090 --> 00:38:23.109
you know what I mean? So there's

1299
00:38:23.110 --> 00:38:25.209
like a lot of attending

1300
00:38:25.210 --> 00:38:26.829
to specificity about, you know, the

1301
00:38:26.830 --> 00:38:29.199
so-called poly crisis that

1302
00:38:29.200 --> 00:38:30.729
the things that are going on.

1303
00:38:30.730 --> 00:38:32.739
And clearly, I think being a parent

1304
00:38:32.740 --> 00:38:33.969
makes that very obvious to you

1305
00:38:33.970 --> 00:38:35.109
because you're not going to like I

1306
00:38:35.110 --> 00:38:36.369
mean, some people do, but I'm going

1307
00:38:36.370 --> 00:38:38.409
to, you know, try and show

1308
00:38:38.410 --> 00:38:40.359
up to listen to the specificities

1309
00:38:40.360 --> 00:38:41.529
of what's going on with your

1310
00:38:41.530 --> 00:38:42.639
students or your kids.

1311
00:38:42.640 --> 00:38:43.929
You know all that at the same time.

1312
00:38:43.930 --> 00:38:45.999
Here's the paradox part is like

1313
00:38:46.000 --> 00:38:47.529
again, with these stories, you know,

1314
00:38:47.530 --> 00:38:48.760
the story that like.

1315
00:38:50.650 --> 00:38:52.479
It's Things are worse now than ever.

1316
00:38:52.480 --> 00:38:53.649
People have had to deal with things,

1317
00:38:53.650 --> 00:38:54.489
but they didn't have to deal with

1318
00:38:54.490 --> 00:38:56.019
the end of the planet or all that

1319
00:38:56.020 --> 00:38:57.519
kind of stuff.

1320
00:38:57.520 --> 00:38:58.329
It doesn't seem to me like

1321
00:38:58.330 --> 00:39:00.129
historically or spiritually.

1322
00:39:02.150 --> 00:39:03.259
Like. True.

1323
00:39:03.260 --> 00:39:04.789
And it also doesn't seem the most

1324
00:39:04.790 --> 00:39:06.859
likely to build,

1325
00:39:06.860 --> 00:39:08.179
you know, feelings of like safety

1326
00:39:08.180 --> 00:39:09.649
and resilience which which are

1327
00:39:09.650 --> 00:39:11.839
necessary to,

1328
00:39:11.840 --> 00:39:13.189
you know, to to keep going.

1329
00:39:13.190 --> 00:39:15.019
So I think that some

1330
00:39:15.020 --> 00:39:16.909
kind of way that you can attend to

1331
00:39:16.910 --> 00:39:18.649
both of those features seems to me

1332
00:39:18.650 --> 00:39:20.539
called for. It's not easy.

1333
00:39:20.540 --> 00:39:22.399
And I think I, you know, saying do

1334
00:39:22.400 --> 00:39:24.079
the wrong thing all the time.

1335
00:39:24.080 --> 00:39:26.179
But I think that's that's

1336
00:39:26.180 --> 00:39:27.979
the that's the value I aspire

1337
00:39:27.980 --> 00:39:29.059
towards. You know.

1338
00:39:29.060 --> 00:39:30.469
I mean, I feel like this is just

1339
00:39:30.470 --> 00:39:31.759
again and again, the heart of this

1340
00:39:31.760 --> 00:39:33.649
book are these like paradoxes

1341
00:39:33.650 --> 00:39:35.059
where it's like both and both.

1342
00:39:35.060 --> 00:39:36.060
And, you know,

1343
00:39:37.310 --> 00:39:39.439
I was flipping through it earlier

1344
00:39:39.440 --> 00:39:41.869
today and I landed right on

1345
00:39:41.870 --> 00:39:43.489
that great quote that you have by

1346
00:39:43.490 --> 00:39:44.839
the writer Kate Braverman, who I've

1347
00:39:44.840 --> 00:39:46.219
been thinking about a lot lately.

1348
00:39:47.270 --> 00:39:49.069
And she had said, you quoted her

1349
00:39:49.070 --> 00:39:50.899
saying, when men engage, this is in

1350
00:39:50.900 --> 00:39:51.979
the drugs part.

1351
00:39:51.980 --> 00:39:53.449
When men engage in bad behavior,

1352
00:39:53.450 --> 00:39:54.739
they're enacting the mythic writer's

1353
00:39:54.740 --> 00:39:55.969
life. When a woman writes about

1354
00:39:55.970 --> 00:39:57.649
outlaw activities, she's considered

1355
00:39:57.650 --> 00:39:59.179
a mentally ill whore.

1356
00:39:59.180 --> 00:40:01.129
And I was like, Yeah, you

1357
00:40:01.130 --> 00:40:02.269
know, when I was young and I was

1358
00:40:02.270 --> 00:40:03.499
writing and my writing was very

1359
00:40:03.500 --> 00:40:04.999
entwined with my outlaw activities,

1360
00:40:05.000 --> 00:40:06.319
I really felt this, you know, and I

1361
00:40:06.320 --> 00:40:08.419
felt like it, you know, it gave

1362
00:40:08.420 --> 00:40:10.579
me this sort of

1363
00:40:10.580 --> 00:40:13.189
bravado or

1364
00:40:13.190 --> 00:40:15.019
justification or motivation

1365
00:40:15.020 --> 00:40:16.639
of just like I was doing something

1366
00:40:16.640 --> 00:40:18.139
feminist by like snorting crystal

1367
00:40:18.140 --> 00:40:19.549
meth and like, running around, you

1368
00:40:19.550 --> 00:40:20.359
know?

1369
00:40:20.360 --> 00:40:21.859
And then when I got sober, I was

1370
00:40:21.860 --> 00:40:23.689
like, obviously that is so sad that

1371
00:40:23.690 --> 00:40:25.189
I thought that, you know, and now

1372
00:40:25.190 --> 00:40:26.599
that I've been sober, you know, for

1373
00:40:26.600 --> 00:40:28.159
like 20 years, I'm like, that kind

1374
00:40:28.160 --> 00:40:29.959
of was maybe, I don't know, I can't

1375
00:40:29.960 --> 00:40:31.909
tell. It's both. And it's like

1376
00:40:31.910 --> 00:40:33.679
and I just was wondering how those,

1377
00:40:33.680 --> 00:40:35.119
you know, those those archetypes

1378
00:40:35.120 --> 00:40:37.219
that come up and in that whole idea,

1379
00:40:37.220 --> 00:40:38.269
which is like, you know, the wild

1380
00:40:38.270 --> 00:40:40.309
man writer and then the messy

1381
00:40:40.310 --> 00:40:42.109
lady drunk or like the tough girl

1382
00:40:42.110 --> 00:40:43.189
who can, like, drink men under the

1383
00:40:43.190 --> 00:40:44.119
table, Why?

1384
00:40:44.120 --> 00:40:45.139
I mean, the quote that you read

1385
00:40:45.140 --> 00:40:46.699
originally from the chapter is

1386
00:40:46.700 --> 00:40:48.499
actually quite relevant here about,

1387
00:40:48.500 --> 00:40:49.999
you know, intimacy with certain

1388
00:40:50.000 --> 00:40:51.469
experiences and then expecting that

1389
00:40:51.470 --> 00:40:52.759
everyone's like, you know, act

1390
00:40:52.760 --> 00:40:54.949
perfectly because it really

1391
00:40:54.950 --> 00:40:56.629
I wrote a lie and I write a lot in

1392
00:40:56.630 --> 00:40:58.729
that drug chapter about women's

1393
00:40:58.730 --> 00:41:00.619
different memoirs of drug

1394
00:41:00.620 --> 00:41:02.449
use and

1395
00:41:02.450 --> 00:41:05.179
and accounts of using because,

1396
00:41:05.180 --> 00:41:06.529
you know, people aren't putting on

1397
00:41:06.530 --> 00:41:07.579
like, what was William Burroughs a

1398
00:41:07.580 --> 00:41:09.229
good mom, like William Burroughs,

1399
00:41:09.230 --> 00:41:10.759
What did he do for the climate?

1400
00:41:10.760 --> 00:41:12.689
Did you know, you know, did dope,

1401
00:41:12.690 --> 00:41:13.579
shot his wife?

1402
00:41:13.580 --> 00:41:14.689
You know what I mean?

1403
00:41:14.690 --> 00:41:15.619
Get out of town.

1404
00:41:15.620 --> 00:41:18.019
Right. But, you know,

1405
00:41:18.020 --> 00:41:19.609
we all know. I mean, this is boring

1406
00:41:19.610 --> 00:41:20.749
because it's like I mean, I tried in

1407
00:41:20.750 --> 00:41:21.889
this chapter to go beyond this.

1408
00:41:21.890 --> 00:41:22.969
I tried to kind of lay it out at the

1409
00:41:22.970 --> 00:41:24.889
beginning, but because of

1410
00:41:24.890 --> 00:41:27.019
the you know, because

1411
00:41:27.020 --> 00:41:28.999
of the onus of, like care and ethics

1412
00:41:29.000 --> 00:41:30.049
and responsibility and the

1413
00:41:30.050 --> 00:41:31.369
expectations of nurturing and

1414
00:41:31.370 --> 00:41:32.899
protecting and all these different

1415
00:41:32.900 --> 00:41:34.789
all the bag of whatever that

1416
00:41:34.790 --> 00:41:36.949
we, you know, hang on women,

1417
00:41:36.950 --> 00:41:37.950
you know.

1418
00:41:39.600 --> 00:41:41.669
You know, women using

1419
00:41:41.670 --> 00:41:42.719
drugs and in the throes of

1420
00:41:42.720 --> 00:41:45.299
addiction, you know, are not just,

1421
00:41:45.300 --> 00:41:47.339
you know, you know, are are

1422
00:41:47.340 --> 00:41:49.349
just despised, you know, utterly

1423
00:41:49.350 --> 00:41:50.939
abject it, you know, out of the out

1424
00:41:50.940 --> 00:41:51.989
of the social order.

1425
00:41:51.990 --> 00:41:52.990
And,

1426
00:41:54.180 --> 00:41:55.439
you know, just think about, you

1427
00:41:55.440 --> 00:41:57.029
know, you know, think about how you

1428
00:41:57.030 --> 00:41:58.379
feel about talk about this movie

1429
00:41:58.380 --> 00:41:59.909
that I watched, you know, growing

1430
00:41:59.910 --> 00:42:02.039
up. I think it was, oh, my God.

1431
00:42:02.040 --> 00:42:02.999
My guess is it's porn.

1432
00:42:03.000 --> 00:42:04.619
My Daisy, I think, is that I'm

1433
00:42:04.620 --> 00:42:05.909
ready. Yeah. Yeah. And it was like

1434
00:42:05.910 --> 00:42:08.189
it's this famous beat movie

1435
00:42:08.190 --> 00:42:09.569
like Allen Ginsberg and Gregory

1436
00:42:09.570 --> 00:42:10.469
Corso and stuff.

1437
00:42:10.470 --> 00:42:12.239
Like, they're they're all gathered

1438
00:42:12.240 --> 00:42:13.469
in this Bowery loft.

1439
00:42:13.470 --> 00:42:14.669
I want to talk about this too long,

1440
00:42:14.670 --> 00:42:16.319
But. But the point is, is that like,

1441
00:42:16.320 --> 00:42:18.659
they're all giggling and, you know,

1442
00:42:18.660 --> 00:42:20.879
having their whole drug induced,

1443
00:42:20.880 --> 00:42:23.190
you know, drunk, you know, whatever

1444
00:42:24.450 --> 00:42:25.919
thing going on and on. Larry RIVERS

1445
00:42:25.920 --> 00:42:26.939
And, you know, and there's and

1446
00:42:26.940 --> 00:42:28.199
there's a mom there with the kid.

1447
00:42:28.200 --> 00:42:29.819
Right. And, you know, the last scene

1448
00:42:29.820 --> 00:42:30.959
in the movie, which I just remember

1449
00:42:30.960 --> 00:42:32.939
watching I describe, is like a young

1450
00:42:32.940 --> 00:42:34.469
twentysomething also living in the

1451
00:42:34.470 --> 00:42:36.269
Lower East Side, also aspiring to a

1452
00:42:36.270 --> 00:42:38.069
life where I was aspiring to be an

1453
00:42:38.070 --> 00:42:40.039
alcoholic. I just was

1454
00:42:40.040 --> 00:42:40.739
like.

1455
00:42:40.740 --> 00:42:41.789
Well, well.

1456
00:42:41.790 --> 00:42:42.989
Thank you.

1457
00:42:42.990 --> 00:42:44.099
Had to get it off my chest.

1458
00:42:44.100 --> 00:42:45.989
So but like watching

1459
00:42:45.990 --> 00:42:47.399
the end of the movie when the boys

1460
00:42:47.400 --> 00:42:49.079
are rolling down the stairs to go

1461
00:42:49.080 --> 00:42:50.969
out and continue their night and and

1462
00:42:50.970 --> 00:42:52.919
the mom is at the top

1463
00:42:52.920 --> 00:42:54.419
of the stairs, you know, screaming

1464
00:42:54.420 --> 00:42:56.189
and screaming and, you know, like,

1465
00:42:56.190 --> 00:42:57.239
you know, like, how can you do this?

1466
00:42:57.240 --> 00:42:58.259
How can you leave me whatever?

1467
00:42:58.260 --> 00:42:59.639
But like, the music is coming up,

1468
00:42:59.640 --> 00:43:00.939
it's jazz, like boom.

1469
00:43:00.940 --> 00:43:02.039
And you're supposed to be, like, really

1470
00:43:02.040 --> 00:43:03.959
happy that they're like, Thank God

1471
00:43:03.960 --> 00:43:05.789
they got away from this shrew

1472
00:43:05.790 --> 00:43:07.049
with a wooden spoon.

1473
00:43:07.050 --> 00:43:08.249
But, you know, but that's why I say

1474
00:43:08.250 --> 00:43:09.749
in the book, imagine if she'd gone

1475
00:43:09.750 --> 00:43:11.519
out like, who was going to stay

1476
00:43:11.520 --> 00:43:13.109
there with that kid, You know, like,

1477
00:43:13.110 --> 00:43:14.579
and I'm sorry, I'm, like, really

1478
00:43:14.580 --> 00:43:15.959
animated about who am I, Daisy

1479
00:43:15.960 --> 00:43:18.059
tonight. But like, but I think

1480
00:43:18.060 --> 00:43:19.889
that I talk about watching that as

1481
00:43:19.890 --> 00:43:21.299
a young woman and, like, being

1482
00:43:21.300 --> 00:43:22.769
really with those guys, you know,

1483
00:43:22.770 --> 00:43:23.999
like, and really, I don't know, like

1484
00:43:24.000 --> 00:43:25.469
that was clearly the life you were

1485
00:43:25.470 --> 00:43:27.569
supposed to want and have as a young

1486
00:43:27.570 --> 00:43:28.739
writer. And everyone was like,

1487
00:43:28.740 --> 00:43:29.639
Aren't they cool?

1488
00:43:29.640 --> 00:43:31.289
And, you know, and it was just

1489
00:43:31.290 --> 00:43:33.779
really it was confusing.

1490
00:43:33.780 --> 00:43:34.889
You know, It was confusing.

1491
00:43:34.890 --> 00:43:36.869
And I think that I

1492
00:43:36.870 --> 00:43:38.339
wanted to spend a lot of time with

1493
00:43:38.340 --> 00:43:40.139
women who who did leave the kid and

1494
00:43:40.140 --> 00:43:41.789
go out, you know, in the in my

1495
00:43:41.790 --> 00:43:44.789
chapter to talk about

1496
00:43:44.790 --> 00:43:47.159
just a, you know, a

1497
00:43:47.160 --> 00:43:49.049
just a cul de sac of literature and

1498
00:43:49.050 --> 00:43:50.249
memoir that.

1499
00:43:52.060 --> 00:43:54.309
That's really fascinating, in part

1500
00:43:54.310 --> 00:43:56.259
because precisely of what you say

1501
00:43:56.260 --> 00:43:58.239
about this outlaw tri

1502
00:43:58.240 --> 00:44:00.159
on and this kind of,

1503
00:44:00.160 --> 00:44:02.169
you know, objected from the sphere

1504
00:44:02.170 --> 00:44:04.479
of femininity and its expectations.

1505
00:44:04.480 --> 00:44:06.309
But also, I spend some time with

1506
00:44:06.310 --> 00:44:07.419
a lot of male writing about

1507
00:44:07.420 --> 00:44:08.619
addiction because a lot of male

1508
00:44:08.620 --> 00:44:10.419
writing about addiction that I talk

1509
00:44:10.420 --> 00:44:12.459
about on the show and

1510
00:44:12.460 --> 00:44:14.349
him describing being on mescaline,

1511
00:44:14.350 --> 00:44:15.879
being like being date raped and

1512
00:44:15.880 --> 00:44:17.919
like, there's a lot of

1513
00:44:17.920 --> 00:44:19.989
there's a lot of writing

1514
00:44:19.990 --> 00:44:21.939
about feeling

1515
00:44:21.940 --> 00:44:24.279
penetrated, made,

1516
00:44:24.280 --> 00:44:26.769
made a slave, subjected,

1517
00:44:26.770 --> 00:44:28.599
you know, dissolved like there's a

1518
00:44:28.600 --> 00:44:31.409
lot of really kind of.

1519
00:44:31.410 --> 00:44:32.489
I know if I want to call it like

1520
00:44:32.490 --> 00:44:34.109
overtly feminist writing, but like a

1521
00:44:34.110 --> 00:44:36.089
real dissolution of the subject

1522
00:44:36.090 --> 00:44:38.329
in a pathetic way and

1523
00:44:38.330 --> 00:44:40.529
in and male addict writing

1524
00:44:40.530 --> 00:44:42.509
that seemingly gets

1525
00:44:42.510 --> 00:44:44.369
totally lost in the gloss

1526
00:44:44.370 --> 00:44:46.169
of it just being cool, you know?

1527
00:44:46.170 --> 00:44:47.279
And I and I really feel like there's

1528
00:44:47.280 --> 00:44:48.689
just so much more going on under the

1529
00:44:48.690 --> 00:44:50.639
surface when you really read those

1530
00:44:50.640 --> 00:44:51.609
books closely.

1531
00:44:51.610 --> 00:44:52.949
Like, I guess last thing I'll say is

1532
00:44:52.950 --> 00:44:54.179
just I think what you see in both

1533
00:44:54.180 --> 00:44:56.099
cases is also a kind

1534
00:44:56.100 --> 00:44:58.709
of longing for for the dissolution

1535
00:44:58.710 --> 00:45:00.329
of the self. So instead of this kind

1536
00:45:00.330 --> 00:45:02.759
of idea of like the addict as

1537
00:45:02.760 --> 00:45:04.739
an outlaw with agency,

1538
00:45:04.740 --> 00:45:06.059
there's actually a lot of longing in

1539
00:45:06.060 --> 00:45:07.949
those texts to be no

1540
00:45:07.950 --> 00:45:10.949
longer in control or overwhelmed

1541
00:45:10.950 --> 00:45:13.199
and to no longer be kind of the

1542
00:45:13.200 --> 00:45:15.479
the agent of one's life, which is

1543
00:45:15.480 --> 00:45:16.769
corresponds a lot to the kind of

1544
00:45:16.770 --> 00:45:18.719
writing I was doing about sex about

1545
00:45:20.100 --> 00:45:21.359
and what I was saying before about

1546
00:45:21.360 --> 00:45:23.099
the inner resistances to freedom is

1547
00:45:23.100 --> 00:45:25.079
that we we tend to talk as

1548
00:45:25.080 --> 00:45:26.999
if most of our day we want to

1549
00:45:27.000 --> 00:45:29.009
be the agent, the free agent

1550
00:45:29.010 --> 00:45:30.089
in control of our lives.

1551
00:45:30.090 --> 00:45:32.309
But I don't think that is a

1552
00:45:32.310 --> 00:45:34.139
good psychoanalytical read

1553
00:45:34.140 --> 00:45:35.969
of of consciousness or

1554
00:45:35.970 --> 00:45:37.499
subjectivity, for sure.

1555
00:45:37.500 --> 00:45:38.729
Yeah. And that and that's all the

1556
00:45:38.730 --> 00:45:40.679
way through this book also.

1557
00:45:40.680 --> 00:45:42.359
What is that? The James Baldwin

1558
00:45:42.360 --> 00:45:44.639
quote, like most people

1559
00:45:44.640 --> 00:45:45.209
look upon.

1560
00:45:45.210 --> 00:45:46.799
Very few people have the real desire

1561
00:45:46.800 --> 00:45:47.609
to be free.

1562
00:45:47.610 --> 00:45:48.599
You know, very few of them are

1563
00:45:48.600 --> 00:45:49.949
Americans. Yeah.

1564
00:45:49.950 --> 00:45:51.119
Yeah.

1565
00:45:51.120 --> 00:45:52.109
All right. Yeah.

1566
00:45:52.110 --> 00:45:53.110
We've been read.

1567
00:45:53.940 --> 00:45:56.549
And in your climate change

1568
00:45:56.550 --> 00:45:58.049
chapter, writing the blinds, you

1569
00:45:58.050 --> 00:46:00.059
quote a Nassau climate scientist

1570
00:46:00.060 --> 00:46:01.919
who talks about the inevitability

1571
00:46:01.920 --> 00:46:03.389
of passing, quote, responsibility

1572
00:46:03.390 --> 00:46:05.249
and guilt onto her child.

1573
00:46:05.250 --> 00:46:07.109
Do you feel that like that as

1574
00:46:07.110 --> 00:46:08.110
a parent?

1575
00:46:08.550 --> 00:46:09.749
Do you?

1576
00:46:09.750 --> 00:46:10.289
Yeah.

1577
00:46:10.290 --> 00:46:11.789
Yeah, totally right.

1578
00:46:11.790 --> 00:46:13.259
Because it's like, you know, and I

1579
00:46:13.260 --> 00:46:14.789
really hate like I've always hated

1580
00:46:14.790 --> 00:46:16.679
when you hear people of

1581
00:46:16.680 --> 00:46:18.419
like, I don't know, our generation

1582
00:46:18.420 --> 00:46:19.199
or even when I was younger, being

1583
00:46:19.200 --> 00:46:20.189
like, the young people are going to

1584
00:46:20.190 --> 00:46:22.229
save us. It's like, Oh my God,

1585
00:46:22.230 --> 00:46:22.889
it's awful.

1586
00:46:22.890 --> 00:46:24.359
At the height of your political

1587
00:46:24.360 --> 00:46:26.279
power and agency and perhaps

1588
00:46:26.280 --> 00:46:27.869
earning power and everything else,

1589
00:46:27.870 --> 00:46:29.009
you know, voting rights, you're

1590
00:46:29.010 --> 00:46:30.389
going to be like, thank God somebody

1591
00:46:30.390 --> 00:46:31.769
else, like looking at a toddler is

1592
00:46:31.770 --> 00:46:33.479
going to come save me.

1593
00:46:33.480 --> 00:46:34.109
It's so.

1594
00:46:34.110 --> 00:46:35.279
Rude.

1595
00:46:35.280 --> 00:46:36.889
It's so rude.

1596
00:46:36.890 --> 00:46:38.039
You know? Yeah.

1597
00:46:38.040 --> 00:46:39.689
No, I actually went to like a I saw

1598
00:46:39.690 --> 00:46:41.009
some play in like there was like the

1599
00:46:41.010 --> 00:46:42.179
last line of it was someone was

1600
00:46:42.180 --> 00:46:43.019
like, you know, I don't know, it's had

1601
00:46:43.020 --> 00:46:44.429
like this quote everyone like, stood

1602
00:46:44.430 --> 00:46:45.509
up and applauded for, but it was

1603
00:46:45.510 --> 00:46:46.379
like, Oh, it's all right. Because

1604
00:46:46.380 --> 00:46:47.759
the youth are like the flashlight

1605
00:46:47.760 --> 00:46:49.079
that lights our way. And I was like,

1606
00:46:49.080 --> 00:46:50.629
I want to be like, dropping

1607
00:46:50.630 --> 00:46:51.959
flashlight.

1608
00:46:51.960 --> 00:46:53.579
I just like, don't let them be in

1609
00:46:53.580 --> 00:46:54.369
the dark.

1610
00:46:54.370 --> 00:46:55.469
It's just like this weird.

1611
00:46:55.470 --> 00:46:56.669
It just makes it seem like you get

1612
00:46:56.670 --> 00:46:57.719
to a certain age and then like,

1613
00:46:57.720 --> 00:46:58.769
you've just give it up and you're

1614
00:46:58.770 --> 00:47:00.089
just a lamp in a corner or

1615
00:47:00.090 --> 00:47:01.109
something. You know what I mean?

1616
00:47:01.110 --> 00:47:02.489
You're just like, You don't do

1617
00:47:02.490 --> 00:47:03.539
things anymore.

1618
00:47:03.540 --> 00:47:05.009
You don't think you don't affect the

1619
00:47:05.010 --> 00:47:05.429
world.

1620
00:47:05.430 --> 00:47:06.599
And Bill McKibben has been doing a

1621
00:47:06.600 --> 00:47:08.429
lot of work, you know, with with

1622
00:47:08.430 --> 00:47:10.259
a you know, I can't what

1623
00:47:10.260 --> 00:47:11.259
the project is called Project

1624
00:47:11.260 --> 00:47:12.119
someone who knows. But, you know,

1625
00:47:12.120 --> 00:47:14.219
with like with, you know, an older

1626
00:47:14.220 --> 00:47:15.899
generation of like people of

1627
00:47:15.900 --> 00:47:17.609
activists and kind of, you know,

1628
00:47:17.610 --> 00:47:18.929
countering that idea.

1629
00:47:18.930 --> 00:47:20.069
And I think that's been really you

1630
00:47:20.070 --> 00:47:20.999
know, I think that's been important

1631
00:47:21.000 --> 00:47:22.559
work, especially as it partners with

1632
00:47:22.560 --> 00:47:23.999
the Sunrise movement and stuff like

1633
00:47:24.000 --> 00:47:24.659
that. Yeah.

1634
00:47:24.660 --> 00:47:25.660
Yeah.

1635
00:47:26.140 --> 00:47:28.109
How as a mom how

1636
00:47:28.110 --> 00:47:30.179
do you are parent, how

1637
00:47:30.180 --> 00:47:32.039
do you go about

1638
00:47:32.040 --> 00:47:33.929
sort of explaining or showing the

1639
00:47:33.930 --> 00:47:35.579
big messy world to your kid?

1640
00:47:35.580 --> 00:47:37.559
Like, do you have a sort of

1641
00:47:37.560 --> 00:47:38.669
God, Are you winging it?

1642
00:47:38.670 --> 00:47:41.069
Is there a you have a philosophy?

1643
00:47:41.070 --> 00:47:42.300
Is it just like a different.

1644
00:47:43.440 --> 00:47:44.819
As I told Michelle, like I said,

1645
00:47:44.820 --> 00:47:45.749
watch out because I'm listening to

1646
00:47:45.750 --> 00:47:47.219
say, What do you do?

1647
00:47:47.220 --> 00:47:48.059
That's fine. Okay.

1648
00:47:48.060 --> 00:47:48.359
What do you.

1649
00:47:48.360 --> 00:47:50.579
Yeah, I mean, I actually

1650
00:47:50.580 --> 00:47:52.469
really like the

1651
00:47:52.470 --> 00:47:54.959
challenge of trying to translate

1652
00:47:54.960 --> 00:47:57.269
whatever's happening into a language

1653
00:47:57.270 --> 00:47:59.129
that he can understand.

1654
00:47:59.130 --> 00:48:00.959
You know, like in

1655
00:48:00.960 --> 00:48:02.759
general, I try to, like, just tell

1656
00:48:02.760 --> 00:48:04.499
him what is going on.

1657
00:48:04.500 --> 00:48:06.149
I, I think I,

1658
00:48:07.740 --> 00:48:09.389
I mean, I, I feel like especially

1659
00:48:09.390 --> 00:48:11.429
because he was sort of,

1660
00:48:11.430 --> 00:48:13.049
you know, he's eight, so he was

1661
00:48:13.050 --> 00:48:14.579
really at this particular age, you

1662
00:48:14.580 --> 00:48:15.749
know, when Trump got elected and

1663
00:48:15.750 --> 00:48:16.949
there were protests and we went to

1664
00:48:16.950 --> 00:48:18.959
protests and, you know, when

1665
00:48:18.960 --> 00:48:20.399
Black Lives Matter happening and

1666
00:48:20.400 --> 00:48:22.409
like he knew I wanted him to know

1667
00:48:22.410 --> 00:48:24.419
I didn't want him to be protected

1668
00:48:24.420 --> 00:48:26.339
from things that a kid of color

1669
00:48:26.340 --> 00:48:28.409
his age would have to know about,

1670
00:48:28.410 --> 00:48:29.279
you know?

1671
00:48:29.280 --> 00:48:30.929
So I would try to just try to figure

1672
00:48:30.930 --> 00:48:32.429
out how to explain things to him.

1673
00:48:32.430 --> 00:48:34.109
But I do worry sometimes that I'm

1674
00:48:34.110 --> 00:48:35.219
painting. The world is just a

1675
00:48:35.220 --> 00:48:36.569
complete fucking nightmare,

1676
00:48:36.570 --> 00:48:38.519
especially just like, I don't know,

1677
00:48:38.520 --> 00:48:40.499
like, you know, I'll tell him things

1678
00:48:40.500 --> 00:48:42.209
where, like, we have this great

1679
00:48:42.210 --> 00:48:44.219
illustration by Miriam Klein style

1680
00:48:44.220 --> 00:48:46.049
of, like, Harry Hay in our house,

1681
00:48:46.050 --> 00:48:47.519
and he'll be like, Who's that guy?

1682
00:48:47.520 --> 00:48:49.139
You know? And let's be like, Oh,

1683
00:48:49.140 --> 00:48:50.099
explain. I'll just be like, you

1684
00:48:50.100 --> 00:48:52.199
know, gay people couldn't marry

1685
00:48:52.200 --> 00:48:54.269
each other. And he'd be like, What?

1686
00:48:54.270 --> 00:48:55.589
You know? And it's like, so cute and

1687
00:48:55.590 --> 00:48:57.479
great to see how see the

1688
00:48:57.480 --> 00:48:59.339
the real absurdity of of stuff like

1689
00:48:59.340 --> 00:49:01.199
that in the response of a kid.

1690
00:49:02.220 --> 00:49:04.169
But I just yeah, I think that

1691
00:49:04.170 --> 00:49:06.239
sometimes I, I guess my concern

1692
00:49:06.240 --> 00:49:07.469
is that well first of all I'm way

1693
00:49:07.470 --> 00:49:09.359
too long winded like I can't tell

1694
00:49:09.360 --> 00:49:11.339
it to him simply I'll be like, back

1695
00:49:11.340 --> 00:49:13.199
in the day there was this thing

1696
00:49:13.200 --> 00:49:14.519
and this and he's just like, Oh God,

1697
00:49:14.520 --> 00:49:16.409
stop. Like, he doesn't care,

1698
00:49:16.410 --> 00:49:17.669
you know? So I have to find a way to

1699
00:49:17.670 --> 00:49:19.739
be, like, really

1700
00:49:19.740 --> 00:49:21.059
fast with it.

1701
00:49:21.060 --> 00:49:21.989
Yeah, I think you're. I mean, I

1702
00:49:21.990 --> 00:49:24.929
think you're right. I think one,

1703
00:49:24.930 --> 00:49:25.930
you know, the.

1704
00:49:26.540 --> 00:49:28.549
The heaven and hell of parenting

1705
00:49:28.550 --> 00:49:30.109
is that, you know, all of your

1706
00:49:30.110 --> 00:49:31.579
traits are revealed to you in

1707
00:49:31.580 --> 00:49:33.919
Technicolor. And I think that.

1708
00:49:33.920 --> 00:49:35.009
I'm a planner.

1709
00:49:35.010 --> 00:49:36.589
Yeah, I'm a big stems, but.

1710
00:49:36.590 --> 00:49:38.449
I'm a big I'm a big, like circle the

1711
00:49:38.450 --> 00:49:40.459
wound there, you know, So.

1712
00:49:40.460 --> 00:49:42.499
And you know, there's no accident

1713
00:49:42.500 --> 00:49:43.909
that a lot of my books in our are

1714
00:49:43.910 --> 00:49:45.979
like really going straight

1715
00:49:45.980 --> 00:49:47.809
at the bad thing you know

1716
00:49:47.810 --> 00:49:50.389
and I think that it's something,

1717
00:49:50.390 --> 00:49:52.069
you know inherited and in a funny

1718
00:49:52.070 --> 00:49:53.959
way from my mom who I kind of joke

1719
00:49:53.960 --> 00:49:56.239
about in the Argonauts about how she

1720
00:49:56.240 --> 00:49:57.499
had this kind of part in there where

1721
00:49:57.500 --> 00:49:59.749
she was like telling me all about

1722
00:49:59.750 --> 00:50:01.219
this killing tree in Cambodia of,

1723
00:50:01.220 --> 00:50:02.569
like, smashing infants against it,

1724
00:50:02.570 --> 00:50:03.589
like kind of over and over again

1725
00:50:03.590 --> 00:50:04.519
just because I had a baby.

1726
00:50:04.520 --> 00:50:05.809
And she was just reminded me and I'm

1727
00:50:05.810 --> 00:50:07.339
like, That's great. You know? Like,

1728
00:50:07.340 --> 00:50:09.169
I know, But like, that's kind of

1729
00:50:09.170 --> 00:50:10.759
like but I and as I say in that

1730
00:50:10.760 --> 00:50:11.839
book, that there's this kind of

1731
00:50:11.840 --> 00:50:13.699
like, like I felt like

1732
00:50:13.700 --> 00:50:14.989
she was always because she was

1733
00:50:14.990 --> 00:50:16.459
traumatized, you know, and like, you

1734
00:50:16.460 --> 00:50:17.629
know, like, I kind of always wanted

1735
00:50:17.630 --> 00:50:19.519
me to know how bad how bad of,

1736
00:50:19.520 --> 00:50:21.079
you know, place the world could be

1737
00:50:21.080 --> 00:50:22.699
like, in case I might, you know,

1738
00:50:22.700 --> 00:50:24.469
slipped my mind or something.

1739
00:50:24.470 --> 00:50:25.669
But I'm not blaming my mom.

1740
00:50:25.670 --> 00:50:26.959
I'm actually saying that, like, I

1741
00:50:26.960 --> 00:50:28.249
understand why she was like that.

1742
00:50:28.250 --> 00:50:29.149
And I understand.

1743
00:50:29.150 --> 00:50:30.679
And I think it actually has great

1744
00:50:30.680 --> 00:50:32.569
like for me that in my

1745
00:50:32.570 --> 00:50:34.279
writing life especially has been of

1746
00:50:34.280 --> 00:50:36.289
great value and it has been

1747
00:50:36.290 --> 00:50:38.149
like a scene of bravery

1748
00:50:38.150 --> 00:50:39.289
or of like fortitude.

1749
00:50:39.290 --> 00:50:41.179
If not bravery is too strong a word.

1750
00:50:41.180 --> 00:50:43.099
But, um, but I

1751
00:50:43.100 --> 00:50:45.109
do notice that I have to be really

1752
00:50:45.110 --> 00:50:46.909
careful if I'm in the car with my

1753
00:50:46.910 --> 00:50:48.349
son, because I've noticed that,

1754
00:50:48.350 --> 00:50:50.749
like, if I'm looking at him, I can,

1755
00:50:50.750 --> 00:50:52.579
like, self-regulate.

1756
00:50:52.580 --> 00:50:54.319
But if, like, I'm just driving and

1757
00:50:54.320 --> 00:50:55.489
he's like, What happened on 911?

1758
00:50:55.490 --> 00:50:56.659
We'll be like three miles out and

1759
00:50:56.660 --> 00:50:58.669
I'm back. And then, you know, like

1760
00:50:58.670 --> 00:51:00.049
I then I'll just be like, Oh, and

1761
00:51:00.050 --> 00:51:01.909
we're at school, you know,

1762
00:51:01.910 --> 00:51:03.469
see, you fight.

1763
00:51:03.470 --> 00:51:05.299
Yeah. And so it's, you know, that's

1764
00:51:05.300 --> 00:51:07.609
hard. I mean, I think it's, it's

1765
00:51:07.610 --> 00:51:09.409
yeah, that's hard.

1766
00:51:09.410 --> 00:51:10.579
I'll be really careful in the car.

1767
00:51:10.580 --> 00:51:11.580
Oh, my God.

1768
00:51:13.670 --> 00:51:16.329
Do you have a death practice?

1769
00:51:16.330 --> 00:51:17.330
I

1770
00:51:19.310 --> 00:51:20.269
don't just want to know these things

1771
00:51:20.270 --> 00:51:22.199
about people, but I love, like, tell

1772
00:51:22.200 --> 00:51:22.879
me what you.

1773
00:51:22.880 --> 00:51:23.929
Tell your death.

1774
00:51:23.930 --> 00:51:25.249
I don't know that I have one, but,

1775
00:51:25.250 --> 00:51:26.029
like, we have a friend.

1776
00:51:26.030 --> 00:51:27.079
That's Pickens, right?

1777
00:51:27.080 --> 00:51:28.789
Who's a writer and mutual friend.

1778
00:51:28.790 --> 00:51:30.289
She has a death practice, so she

1779
00:51:30.290 --> 00:51:31.339
just, like, does this thing where

1780
00:51:31.340 --> 00:51:33.289
she just, like, I don't know, sits

1781
00:51:33.290 --> 00:51:34.339
with herself every day, reminds

1782
00:51:34.340 --> 00:51:35.629
itself that she's going to die.

1783
00:51:35.630 --> 00:51:37.489
There's this app she had that you

1784
00:51:37.490 --> 00:51:38.689
could get on your phone.

1785
00:51:38.690 --> 00:51:39.019
You're going to.

1786
00:51:39.020 --> 00:51:40.279
Tell her you're going to die.

1787
00:51:40.280 --> 00:51:42.349
Yeah. And I got I was so excited

1788
00:51:42.350 --> 00:51:43.579
about it. I was like, Bet there's

1789
00:51:43.580 --> 00:51:45.319
this app that tells you, reminds you

1790
00:51:45.320 --> 00:51:46.249
every day that you're going to die.

1791
00:51:46.250 --> 00:51:47.629
She's like, I have that app.

1792
00:51:47.630 --> 00:51:49.699
I was like, okay, you know,

1793
00:51:49.700 --> 00:51:50.999
And I don't know.

1794
00:51:51.000 --> 00:51:53.359
Medical daily anxiety, mortality

1795
00:51:53.360 --> 00:51:54.379
doesn't Does that count?

1796
00:51:54.380 --> 00:51:55.609
No, it doesn't count as a practice.

1797
00:51:55.610 --> 00:51:56.479
I don't. I'm kidding.

1798
00:51:56.480 --> 00:51:56.939
I'm kidding.

1799
00:51:56.940 --> 00:51:59.149
I mean, it's like if it's

1800
00:51:59.150 --> 00:52:01.249
I don't know, is it like, you know,

1801
00:52:01.250 --> 00:52:02.869
it can't not make you anxious, I

1802
00:52:02.870 --> 00:52:04.309
feel like. But then there's a sense

1803
00:52:04.310 --> 00:52:05.359
that if it does make you anxious,

1804
00:52:05.360 --> 00:52:06.499
you're somehow doing it wrong.

1805
00:52:06.500 --> 00:52:08.539
So it's like just another wellness

1806
00:52:08.540 --> 00:52:10.099
practice for you to feel like shit

1807
00:52:10.100 --> 00:52:11.689
about yourself, about sort of, you

1808
00:52:11.690 --> 00:52:13.579
know, another thing to

1809
00:52:13.580 --> 00:52:14.899
get wrong, like I'm not doing my

1810
00:52:14.900 --> 00:52:16.939
death practice right.

1811
00:52:16.940 --> 00:52:18.469
Like.

1812
00:52:18.470 --> 00:52:19.309
So I don't know.

1813
00:52:19.310 --> 00:52:20.479
I can't remember what part it was.

1814
00:52:20.480 --> 00:52:22.399
Some part in the climate change.

1815
00:52:22.400 --> 00:52:24.259
The last line of that chapter, it

1816
00:52:24.260 --> 00:52:25.879
says something like, you know, if we

1817
00:52:25.880 --> 00:52:27.379
can live as best we can and not my,

1818
00:52:27.380 --> 00:52:29.509
you know, not mine dying,

1819
00:52:29.510 --> 00:52:31.309
you know, as best we can, then, you

1820
00:52:31.310 --> 00:52:32.629
know, then I say my heart feels

1821
00:52:32.630 --> 00:52:34.549
shaped right, you know, And I

1822
00:52:34.550 --> 00:52:36.709
think I mean, I think

1823
00:52:36.710 --> 00:52:38.389
there's I mean, this is back to the

1824
00:52:38.390 --> 00:52:39.589
thing about stories.

1825
00:52:39.590 --> 00:52:40.639
There's a kind of, um.

1826
00:52:43.240 --> 00:52:44.509
It's really hard to get there.

1827
00:52:44.510 --> 00:52:45.609
I'm not saying I get there, but

1828
00:52:45.610 --> 00:52:47.379
there's this kind of you know, a lot

1829
00:52:47.380 --> 00:52:49.419
of this book is about

1830
00:52:49.420 --> 00:52:50.420
like.

1831
00:52:50.860 --> 00:52:51.860
It's about.

1832
00:52:54.820 --> 00:52:56.709
You know, gripping and then

1833
00:52:56.710 --> 00:52:58.569
like letting go.

1834
00:52:58.570 --> 00:53:00.429
And as it relates to, it's kind

1835
00:53:00.430 --> 00:53:02.169
of like an image of liberation in

1836
00:53:02.170 --> 00:53:04.179
certain ways and it comes up a lot.

1837
00:53:04.180 --> 00:53:06.039
That's kind of I talk

1838
00:53:06.040 --> 00:53:07.899
a lot about like what happens when

1839
00:53:07.900 --> 00:53:09.069
you actually start to hold on to

1840
00:53:09.070 --> 00:53:10.779
like a freedom dream itself with

1841
00:53:10.780 --> 00:53:12.339
like, with, like a grip, Like you

1842
00:53:12.340 --> 00:53:13.929
have that kind of idea about that

1843
00:53:13.930 --> 00:53:15.429
freedom dream and that maybe that

1844
00:53:15.430 --> 00:53:17.379
too, you have to let go of.

1845
00:53:17.380 --> 00:53:19.179
And maybe at times, I mean, you

1846
00:53:19.180 --> 00:53:21.249
know, one has to let go of one's own

1847
00:53:22.360 --> 00:53:24.369
desire for freedom and

1848
00:53:24.370 --> 00:53:25.929
other people's desire for freedom.

1849
00:53:25.930 --> 00:53:27.249
You know, first, like there's a lot

1850
00:53:27.250 --> 00:53:29.229
of that kind of thinking

1851
00:53:29.230 --> 00:53:30.129
about letting go.

1852
00:53:30.130 --> 00:53:31.269
And I this is the part I was gonna

1853
00:53:31.270 --> 00:53:33.159
say, I'm not there yet, but I

1854
00:53:33.160 --> 00:53:34.719
do think that there's a kind of and

1855
00:53:34.720 --> 00:53:36.579
again, this can be kind of Buddhist,

1856
00:53:36.580 --> 00:53:38.229
but there's a kind of no big deal on

1857
00:53:38.230 --> 00:53:40.089
this as a perspective

1858
00:53:40.090 --> 00:53:42.129
on like, on, on

1859
00:53:42.130 --> 00:53:44.319
everything you know and I don't mean

1860
00:53:44.320 --> 00:53:45.729
there's a very particular kind of no

1861
00:53:45.730 --> 00:53:46.989
big deal in this. You know, it's not

1862
00:53:46.990 --> 00:53:49.209
a it's a and I think

1863
00:53:49.210 --> 00:53:50.979
in the chapter on climate, what I'm

1864
00:53:50.980 --> 00:53:52.659
trying to get at in part is that the

1865
00:53:52.660 --> 00:53:54.639
big the big deal ness, which

1866
00:53:54.640 --> 00:53:56.229
is again, the story of like but it's

1867
00:53:56.230 --> 00:53:57.069
never been like this.

1868
00:53:57.070 --> 00:53:58.149
But this is the catastrophe.

1869
00:53:58.150 --> 00:53:59.829
But this is the end, but this is the

1870
00:53:59.830 --> 00:54:01.119
high you know, this like this is the

1871
00:54:01.120 --> 00:54:03.099
biggest test, you know, humans

1872
00:54:03.100 --> 00:54:04.569
ever, ever encountered or this is,

1873
00:54:04.570 --> 00:54:06.579
you know, a lot of that, like

1874
00:54:06.580 --> 00:54:07.659
some of these things may be

1875
00:54:07.660 --> 00:54:09.489
empirically true, some of them may

1876
00:54:09.490 --> 00:54:12.249
not, but they all

1877
00:54:12.250 --> 00:54:14.169
in order to try and use them

1878
00:54:14.170 --> 00:54:16.119
to arouse action, they

1879
00:54:16.120 --> 00:54:18.399
also are are they also

1880
00:54:18.400 --> 00:54:20.049
I'm doing this because they're also

1881
00:54:20.050 --> 00:54:22.179
they're also means of like

1882
00:54:22.180 --> 00:54:23.889
producing anxiety that like holds on

1883
00:54:23.890 --> 00:54:26.529
to your grip. And I actually think

1884
00:54:26.530 --> 00:54:28.569
that there's this book that I talk

1885
00:54:28.570 --> 00:54:29.889
about, you know, this Timothy Morton

1886
00:54:29.890 --> 00:54:32.409
book, Dark Ecology,

1887
00:54:32.410 --> 00:54:34.389
that I write about

1888
00:54:34.390 --> 00:54:35.589
in that chapter in the way that he

1889
00:54:35.590 --> 00:54:36.809
kind of.

1890
00:54:36.810 --> 00:54:38.789
Imagines learning about

1891
00:54:38.790 --> 00:54:40.559
the climate crisis as like a series

1892
00:54:40.560 --> 00:54:42.149
of darkness is like there's a sweet

1893
00:54:42.150 --> 00:54:43.409
darkness, there's an uncanny

1894
00:54:43.410 --> 00:54:44.879
darkness. But he kind of has it's

1895
00:54:44.880 --> 00:54:45.929
like kind of like a Tibetan Book of

1896
00:54:45.930 --> 00:54:47.609
the Dead Journey Through the

1897
00:54:47.610 --> 00:54:49.589
Darkness is to like to be

1898
00:54:49.590 --> 00:54:50.590
able to

1899
00:54:51.660 --> 00:54:53.309
really be in a different spot, to

1900
00:54:53.310 --> 00:54:55.139
like, think and interact with

1901
00:54:55.140 --> 00:54:56.099
the climate crisis.

1902
00:54:56.100 --> 00:54:58.199
And I think that one

1903
00:54:58.200 --> 00:55:00.089
of those darkness is is

1904
00:55:00.090 --> 00:55:01.979
the part where you let go like,

1905
00:55:01.980 --> 00:55:03.149
like it's okay.

1906
00:55:03.150 --> 00:55:04.979
Like, you know, the earth

1907
00:55:04.980 --> 00:55:06.839
is very small, like in

1908
00:55:06.840 --> 00:55:08.399
the scheme of things, you know, like

1909
00:55:08.400 --> 00:55:09.929
this time is very small, but it

1910
00:55:09.930 --> 00:55:11.129
doesn't mean that you're not ready.

1911
00:55:11.130 --> 00:55:13.049
Then return to action on

1912
00:55:13.050 --> 00:55:14.909
the earth. And as he says, you know,

1913
00:55:14.910 --> 00:55:16.739
giving up on the dream that that

1914
00:55:16.740 --> 00:55:18.989
the world is about to end,

1915
00:55:18.990 --> 00:55:20.159
you know, is so important that in

1916
00:55:20.160 --> 00:55:22.169
fact, a real action on earth depends

1917
00:55:22.170 --> 00:55:23.579
upon it. And I am really, again,

1918
00:55:23.580 --> 00:55:24.569
with the paradox. I'm really

1919
00:55:24.570 --> 00:55:26.789
interested in what that

1920
00:55:26.790 --> 00:55:28.709
process of letting go maybe

1921
00:55:28.710 --> 00:55:30.869
of that grip actually might

1922
00:55:30.870 --> 00:55:33.239
like return us to action in a more,

1923
00:55:33.240 --> 00:55:35.219
you know, in a in a in a more stable

1924
00:55:35.220 --> 00:55:37.619
fashion than,

1925
00:55:37.620 --> 00:55:39.149
than running around in the state of

1926
00:55:39.150 --> 00:55:41.429
panic and pain, you know?

1927
00:55:41.430 --> 00:55:42.769
Yeah.

1928
00:55:42.770 --> 00:55:43.729
That's your death practice.

1929
00:55:43.730 --> 00:55:44.539
That's great.

1930
00:55:44.540 --> 00:55:46.130
This book is your death practice.

1931
00:55:48.140 --> 00:55:49.819
I think we're at the place now where

1932
00:55:49.820 --> 00:55:51.409
we can have questions from the

1933
00:55:51.410 --> 00:55:52.639
audience. Okay, great.

1934
00:55:52.640 --> 00:55:53.719
You didn't talk about

1935
00:55:55.970 --> 00:55:56.989
Michelle's book?

1936
00:55:56.990 --> 00:55:58.699
Because we're talking about my book.

1937
00:55:58.700 --> 00:56:00.019
Yeah, I just. I know, but if you

1938
00:56:00.020 --> 00:56:01.069
have any questions for Michelle,

1939
00:56:01.070 --> 00:56:02.959
too, and her recent book getting.

1940
00:56:02.960 --> 00:56:05.119
I'm sorry, knocking myself

1941
00:56:05.120 --> 00:56:06.109
out myself up.

1942
00:56:06.110 --> 00:56:07.129
Yes, exactly.

1943
00:56:07.130 --> 00:56:08.509
And then of this book I just reread

1944
00:56:08.510 --> 00:56:09.729
for This week against the memoir.

1945
00:56:09.730 --> 00:56:11.299
And she is also so good, you know,

1946
00:56:11.300 --> 00:56:12.499
and I think you should feel free to

1947
00:56:12.500 --> 00:56:14.809
ask her questions as well.

1948
00:56:14.810 --> 00:56:15.810
I'm available.

1949
00:56:19.360 --> 00:56:20.919
And the ushers are going to come to

1950
00:56:20.920 --> 00:56:21.729
you. Yeah.

1951
00:56:21.730 --> 00:56:22.989
We're not ignoring your hand.

1952
00:56:22.990 --> 00:56:25.299
Yeah, and then somebody will, like,

1953
00:56:25.300 --> 00:56:26.300
come to you.

1954
00:56:33.750 --> 00:56:34.389
Yeah.

1955
00:56:34.390 --> 00:56:35.979
I got a I got a question.

1956
00:56:35.980 --> 00:56:37.559
Oh, so just my daughter, Lydia

1957
00:56:37.560 --> 00:56:38.609
Jones.

1958
00:56:38.610 --> 00:56:39.449
She's a writer.

1959
00:56:39.450 --> 00:56:40.619
She's an artist.

1960
00:56:40.620 --> 00:56:42.089
She's a brilliant mind here in Los

1961
00:56:42.090 --> 00:56:43.559
Angeles.

1962
00:56:43.560 --> 00:56:44.009
Oh.

1963
00:56:44.010 --> 00:56:45.150
That's fantastic.

1964
00:56:46.440 --> 00:56:48.479
Hate to take long stories.

1965
00:56:48.480 --> 00:56:49.480
And I love.

1966
00:56:52.370 --> 00:56:53.370
That is all good

1967
00:56:55.450 --> 00:56:56.719
about your weekend.

1968
00:56:56.720 --> 00:56:57.649
That's so cool.

1969
00:56:57.650 --> 00:56:59.030
Do you write about your own life?

1970
00:57:00.950 --> 00:57:03.519
You make stuff up on my.

1971
00:57:03.520 --> 00:57:04.520
Cool.

1972
00:57:07.270 --> 00:57:09.039
So we came from this crazy struggle.

1973
00:57:09.040 --> 00:57:10.629
An outsider like people like James

1974
00:57:10.630 --> 00:57:13.269
Baldwin are inspirations to me

1975
00:57:13.270 --> 00:57:14.679
cause where we come from and

1976
00:57:14.680 --> 00:57:16.809
everything. But, you know,

1977
00:57:16.810 --> 00:57:18.249
as people that come about a

1978
00:57:18.250 --> 00:57:19.569
squirrel, people that come up out of

1979
00:57:19.570 --> 00:57:20.589
the trenches.

1980
00:57:20.590 --> 00:57:21.999
I wanted her to get some insight,

1981
00:57:22.000 --> 00:57:23.979
you know, from as

1982
00:57:23.980 --> 00:57:25.839
a student, a tailor that invited us

1983
00:57:25.840 --> 00:57:26.619
down here.

1984
00:57:26.620 --> 00:57:28.479
I want her to gain insight from a

1985
00:57:28.480 --> 00:57:30.279
female author that might inspire

1986
00:57:30.280 --> 00:57:32.109
her. So if you could give her

1987
00:57:32.110 --> 00:57:34.239
any insight to get inspired from a

1988
00:57:34.240 --> 00:57:35.649
female perspective.

1989
00:57:35.650 --> 00:57:38.229
I know you quoted James Baldwin, but

1990
00:57:38.230 --> 00:57:39.489
as a [Unrecognized] from the street,

1991
00:57:39.490 --> 00:57:40.989
I can be inspired by James Baldwin

1992
00:57:40.990 --> 00:57:41.859
forever.

1993
00:57:41.860 --> 00:57:43.269
You doing the same. But I like to

1994
00:57:43.270 --> 00:57:44.499
give her some inspirations from

1995
00:57:44.500 --> 00:57:46.509
Female. So if you give her any type

1996
00:57:46.510 --> 00:57:47.649
of inspiration, I would appreciate

1997
00:57:47.650 --> 00:57:48.609
that 100%.

1998
00:57:48.610 --> 00:57:50.589
Really, really was the

1999
00:57:50.590 --> 00:57:51.069
man.

2000
00:57:51.070 --> 00:57:52.599
You seem like you are already

2001
00:57:52.600 --> 00:57:54.669
inspired. All you got to do

2002
00:57:54.670 --> 00:57:56.529
is just keep that notebook with you

2003
00:57:56.530 --> 00:57:58.509
and keep writing everywhere you are.

2004
00:57:58.510 --> 00:58:00.309
Like, it's so cool that you're not

2005
00:58:00.310 --> 00:58:01.719
like, Oh, I write it, you know,

2006
00:58:01.720 --> 00:58:03.339
like, you're here in a theater, you

2007
00:58:03.340 --> 00:58:04.569
got your notebook on your lap and

2008
00:58:04.570 --> 00:58:05.529
you're going.

2009
00:58:05.530 --> 00:58:07.509
The only thing that you need to do

2010
00:58:07.510 --> 00:58:09.519
to be a writer is just write.

2011
00:58:09.520 --> 00:58:10.479
That's all you need to do.

2012
00:58:10.480 --> 00:58:11.409
You're already a writer.

2013
00:58:11.410 --> 00:58:12.879
You just got to keep it up.

2014
00:58:12.880 --> 00:58:14.169
And it's the best. It's the best

2015
00:58:14.170 --> 00:58:15.369
thing because you can do it at any

2016
00:58:15.370 --> 00:58:16.269
age.

2017
00:58:16.270 --> 00:58:17.619
It's the cheapest art form.

2018
00:58:17.620 --> 00:58:19.389
You just get a can, always grab a

2019
00:58:19.390 --> 00:58:21.279
napkin if you need it and write

2020
00:58:21.280 --> 00:58:22.419
with a pen.

2021
00:58:22.420 --> 00:58:24.069
Steal someone's pen off a table.

2022
00:58:24.070 --> 00:58:24.909
No big deal.

2023
00:58:24.910 --> 00:58:26.919
Like, it's. It's so accessible

2024
00:58:26.920 --> 00:58:28.539
and you clearly got the fire in you.

2025
00:58:28.540 --> 00:58:29.979
So, you know, you're blessed.

2026
00:58:29.980 --> 00:58:31.479
That's like, really great.

2027
00:58:31.480 --> 00:58:33.069
You just got to just always know

2028
00:58:33.070 --> 00:58:34.899
that it's really special to be

2029
00:58:34.900 --> 00:58:36.639
a person who wants to do the things

2030
00:58:36.640 --> 00:58:37.640
that you're doing.

2031
00:58:41.070 --> 00:58:42.539
Thanks for being here.

2032
00:58:44.270 --> 00:58:45.349
Huh?

2033
00:58:45.350 --> 00:58:46.429
Just. Yeah, just.

2034
00:58:46.430 --> 00:58:47.449
Let's just let it sink in.

2035
00:58:49.220 --> 00:58:50.449
I was already nervous to ask my

2036
00:58:50.450 --> 00:58:52.549
question, but following that has me

2037
00:58:52.550 --> 00:58:53.550
very.

2038
00:58:54.590 --> 00:58:56.749
I'm such a fan and admirer

2039
00:58:56.750 --> 00:58:59.059
of you both, especially

2040
00:58:59.060 --> 00:59:01.039
of the daring ways

2041
00:59:01.040 --> 00:59:02.959
to use Michelle's word, McGee.

2042
00:59:02.960 --> 00:59:04.879
But also the logical ways

2043
00:59:04.880 --> 00:59:06.709
that you talk about sex and gender

2044
00:59:06.710 --> 00:59:08.509
in your work. And I've really

2045
00:59:08.510 --> 00:59:09.919
appreciated the discussion of

2046
00:59:09.920 --> 00:59:11.869
paradoxes here,

2047
00:59:11.870 --> 00:59:13.219
the juxtapositions of, like the

2048
00:59:13.220 --> 00:59:14.749
Buddhist drive all blamed into one,

2049
00:59:14.750 --> 00:59:16.469
but also like systemic issues,

2050
00:59:16.470 --> 00:59:18.289
action, I

2051
00:59:18.290 --> 00:59:20.959
think obviously complicating

2052
00:59:20.960 --> 00:59:23.029
narratives that feel really safe

2053
00:59:23.030 --> 00:59:24.559
problem, enticing narratives that

2054
00:59:24.560 --> 00:59:26.419
feel really safe, but also embracing

2055
00:59:26.420 --> 00:59:28.369
narratives that feel

2056
00:59:28.370 --> 00:59:30.409
really wrong is a

2057
00:59:30.410 --> 00:59:32.269
state that we humans don't

2058
00:59:32.270 --> 00:59:34.129
really like to be in,

2059
00:59:34.130 --> 00:59:36.109
but it's a state that you both

2060
00:59:36.110 --> 00:59:38.629
seem to embody so naturally.

2061
00:59:38.630 --> 00:59:40.609
And my question is, when

2062
00:59:40.610 --> 00:59:42.349
you feel yourself sort of like

2063
00:59:42.350 --> 00:59:43.999
getting too comfortable in an

2064
00:59:44.000 --> 00:59:45.949
ideology, how do you keep

2065
00:59:45.950 --> 00:59:48.079
yourself like

2066
00:59:48.080 --> 00:59:49.490
clung to paradox?

2067
00:59:52.340 --> 00:59:54.319
Has a really good question.

2068
00:59:54.320 --> 00:59:55.189
That's a really good question.

2069
00:59:55.190 --> 00:59:56.190
I mean, I think it's

2070
00:59:57.290 --> 00:59:59.239
I think it's I think that

2071
00:59:59.240 --> 01:00:00.109
that to me, like, that's what

2072
01:00:00.110 --> 01:00:01.699
research is, you know, And it's like

2073
01:00:01.700 --> 01:00:03.049
if I read something I find really

2074
01:00:03.050 --> 01:00:04.050
convincing,

2075
01:00:05.000 --> 01:00:05.929
I'm excited.

2076
01:00:05.930 --> 01:00:08.059
But then I kind of immediately

2077
01:00:08.060 --> 01:00:09.889
like, well, you know,

2078
01:00:09.890 --> 01:00:11.119
I want to find something else really

2079
01:00:11.120 --> 01:00:12.199
convincing, you know?

2080
01:00:12.200 --> 01:00:13.879
And I just want to say like, because

2081
01:00:13.880 --> 01:00:14.880
I think.

2082
01:00:17.590 --> 01:00:19.809
You know, I'm aware of the fact

2083
01:00:19.810 --> 01:00:20.810
that.

2084
01:00:23.280 --> 01:00:24.959
You know what you're appreciating.

2085
01:00:24.960 --> 01:00:26.999
You know, some people just find

2086
01:00:27.000 --> 01:00:28.409
like equivocating, you know what I

2087
01:00:28.410 --> 01:00:29.549
mean? And I and I'm aware of the

2088
01:00:29.550 --> 01:00:30.869
fact of my own writing that I always

2089
01:00:30.870 --> 01:00:32.969
have to be

2090
01:00:32.970 --> 01:00:33.970
aware

2091
01:00:35.130 --> 01:00:36.449
and I always have to make sure that

2092
01:00:36.450 --> 01:00:37.859
I write.

2093
01:00:37.860 --> 01:00:38.879
I always have to make sure I write

2094
01:00:38.880 --> 01:00:39.839
what I want to say.

2095
01:00:39.840 --> 01:00:41.249
And I'm not just like on the other

2096
01:00:41.250 --> 01:00:42.599
hand. On the other hand, you know,

2097
01:00:42.600 --> 01:00:43.709
that's not that's not like the end

2098
01:00:43.710 --> 01:00:44.849
of the process, you know?

2099
01:00:44.850 --> 01:00:45.850
And so I think

2100
01:00:47.490 --> 01:00:48.569
so I do think that there's a kind of

2101
01:00:48.570 --> 01:00:50.399
art of that. But I definitely feel

2102
01:00:50.400 --> 01:00:51.400
like

2103
01:00:52.680 --> 01:00:53.880
I definitely feel like I.

2104
01:00:55.000 --> 01:00:57.279
I don't read things in bad faith.

2105
01:00:57.280 --> 01:00:59.379
You know, like, I don't read people

2106
01:00:59.380 --> 01:01:01.329
who I think are writing, like,

2107
01:01:01.330 --> 01:01:02.229
in bad faith.

2108
01:01:02.230 --> 01:01:04.329
But I will read things

2109
01:01:04.330 --> 01:01:06.309
that are pretty far afield from

2110
01:01:06.310 --> 01:01:08.469
what I might naturally

2111
01:01:08.470 --> 01:01:09.470
like, think

2112
01:01:10.720 --> 01:01:11.979
and like. I mean, in the drug

2113
01:01:11.980 --> 01:01:13.179
chapter, I spend a lot of time with

2114
01:01:13.180 --> 01:01:15.399
this writer, Thomas says.

2115
01:01:15.400 --> 01:01:16.749
I mean, not like a lot of time, but

2116
01:01:16.750 --> 01:01:17.739
like, you know, he has a book called

2117
01:01:17.740 --> 01:01:19.179
The Right to Drugs.

2118
01:01:19.180 --> 01:01:20.799
He's a libertarian about drugs and

2119
01:01:20.800 --> 01:01:22.809
really feels like people should be,

2120
01:01:22.810 --> 01:01:24.129
you know, even if it kills them,

2121
01:01:24.130 --> 01:01:25.479
they should be left to do what they

2122
01:01:25.480 --> 01:01:26.589
want, you know, kind of like loosely

2123
01:01:26.590 --> 01:01:27.789
part of like, you know, cause it's

2124
01:01:27.790 --> 01:01:28.749
kind of like a cross with some of

2125
01:01:28.750 --> 01:01:30.699
the anti-psychiatry stuff about not

2126
01:01:30.700 --> 01:01:32.289
not taking people off the streets or

2127
01:01:32.290 --> 01:01:33.290
different things. And,

2128
01:01:34.600 --> 01:01:36.249
you know, I think that.

2129
01:01:37.390 --> 01:01:38.589
There's a lot of that.

2130
01:01:38.590 --> 01:01:39.909
The intersex.

2131
01:01:39.910 --> 01:01:41.259
I mean, there's a lot of that that

2132
01:01:41.260 --> 01:01:43.149
just seems like at some of

2133
01:01:43.150 --> 01:01:44.589
some moments I'll be reading it and

2134
01:01:44.590 --> 01:01:45.669
it feels like it's patently kind of

2135
01:01:45.670 --> 01:01:46.719
evil, you know? And there are a lot

2136
01:01:46.720 --> 01:01:47.859
of moments where I'd be reading it

2137
01:01:47.860 --> 01:01:49.179
and I'd be like, Well, I think like

2138
01:01:49.180 --> 01:01:50.180
I really agree with

2139
01:01:52.210 --> 01:01:53.769
or I think they're like, this is a

2140
01:01:53.770 --> 01:01:55.689
very valuable, like

2141
01:01:55.690 --> 01:01:57.639
corrective to some of the kind of

2142
01:01:57.640 --> 01:01:59.889
plodding, like leftist

2143
01:01:59.890 --> 01:02:01.779
ways that one can get kind of into

2144
01:02:01.780 --> 01:02:02.709
thinking about.

2145
01:02:02.710 --> 01:02:04.119
Just like, I mean, I think this is I

2146
01:02:04.120 --> 01:02:06.039
mean, Michelle and I,

2147
01:02:06.040 --> 01:02:07.040
you know.

2148
01:02:08.410 --> 01:02:10.839
Like. I think recovery stuff also

2149
01:02:10.840 --> 01:02:13.539
has an interesting relationship to

2150
01:02:13.540 --> 01:02:15.249
notions of care and agency and like

2151
01:02:15.250 --> 01:02:17.589
autonomy of others and intervention.

2152
01:02:17.590 --> 01:02:19.569
And I think that

2153
01:02:19.570 --> 01:02:21.429
it doesn't always break down like

2154
01:02:21.430 --> 01:02:23.259
in the in the ways that people act

2155
01:02:23.260 --> 01:02:24.609
like those things are going to break

2156
01:02:24.610 --> 01:02:25.419
down. So I don't know.

2157
01:02:25.420 --> 01:02:26.859
And so I guess I just train, you

2158
01:02:26.860 --> 01:02:28.599
know, like in the re in the reading,

2159
01:02:28.600 --> 01:02:30.519
trying things on and then,

2160
01:02:30.520 --> 01:02:31.869
and then time I think is an

2161
01:02:31.870 --> 01:02:33.969
important aspect because

2162
01:02:33.970 --> 01:02:35.859
I get very swept up in things that I

2163
01:02:35.860 --> 01:02:37.389
read and then I have to like let

2164
01:02:37.390 --> 01:02:39.459
them settle for days,

2165
01:02:39.460 --> 01:02:41.439
weeks or months to kind of see if

2166
01:02:41.440 --> 01:02:43.449
I just got like, seduced

2167
01:02:43.450 --> 01:02:44.499
by it.

2168
01:02:44.500 --> 01:02:45.819
And then what do I really what do I

2169
01:02:45.820 --> 01:02:47.079
really think about that?

2170
01:02:47.080 --> 01:02:48.519
You know? And then and writing for

2171
01:02:48.520 --> 01:02:50.469
me is the arena whereby I

2172
01:02:50.470 --> 01:02:52.809
lay out the thought process

2173
01:02:52.810 --> 01:02:54.339
of like, Hey, I got seduced by this,

2174
01:02:54.340 --> 01:02:55.299
but now I think this.

2175
01:02:55.300 --> 01:02:56.649
Or you're like, I like. But time is

2176
01:02:56.650 --> 01:02:58.839
really important in that too,

2177
01:02:58.840 --> 01:02:59.840
you know?

2178
01:03:01.110 --> 01:03:02.369
I don't know if it's because I'm a

2179
01:03:02.370 --> 01:03:04.409
writer or an American,

2180
01:03:04.410 --> 01:03:05.849
but I feel like this.

2181
01:03:05.850 --> 01:03:07.259
Like I'm supposed to know what I

2182
01:03:07.260 --> 01:03:08.279
think about everything.

2183
01:03:08.280 --> 01:03:09.689
You know, I got my opinion, you

2184
01:03:09.690 --> 01:03:11.549
know, and something happened, and

2185
01:03:11.550 --> 01:03:13.079
I think it was around getting sober.

2186
01:03:13.080 --> 01:03:14.999
Honestly, there was something that

2187
01:03:15.000 --> 01:03:16.079
happened around that.

2188
01:03:16.080 --> 01:03:17.879
In the process of that where I was

2189
01:03:17.880 --> 01:03:19.739
like, Oh, what

2190
01:03:19.740 --> 01:03:20.879
if I just like, don't know how I

2191
01:03:20.880 --> 01:03:21.809
feel about something?

2192
01:03:21.810 --> 01:03:22.799
Like, what if I just don't know if

2193
01:03:22.800 --> 01:03:24.359
it's like, right or wrong?

2194
01:03:24.360 --> 01:03:26.219
And that to me is really

2195
01:03:26.220 --> 01:03:28.229
awesome. It's like such a relief,

2196
01:03:28.230 --> 01:03:30.089
you know, rather than trying to

2197
01:03:30.090 --> 01:03:32.189
like, you know, have a fight

2198
01:03:32.190 --> 01:03:34.289
in my head about something

2199
01:03:34.290 --> 01:03:36.059
is just to, like, let myself, like,

2200
01:03:36.060 --> 01:03:37.829
withhold, like, why do I have to

2201
01:03:37.830 --> 01:03:39.119
have an opinion about everything?

2202
01:03:39.120 --> 01:03:41.039
You know, like I can kind of take

2203
01:03:41.040 --> 01:03:43.259
it in and see the terrain and accept

2204
01:03:43.260 --> 01:03:45.059
that it's all there.

2205
01:03:45.060 --> 01:03:46.949
And, you know, sure, I think about

2206
01:03:46.950 --> 01:03:49.019
it. It's not about like just being

2207
01:03:49.020 --> 01:03:50.999
like a goofball about it, but, you

2208
01:03:51.000 --> 01:03:53.069
know, you don't always have to,

2209
01:03:53.070 --> 01:03:54.089
you know, come down really.

2210
01:03:54.090 --> 01:03:55.589
It's like I'm like, I'm not a judge.

2211
01:03:55.590 --> 01:03:56.789
Like, I don't need to.

2212
01:03:56.790 --> 01:03:58.739
You're saying against memoir Camp

2213
01:03:58.740 --> 01:04:00.119
Trans, you know, which I just,

2214
01:04:01.470 --> 01:04:03.509
just re read. I mean and for those

2215
01:04:03.510 --> 01:04:04.589
who haven't read it, what year did

2216
01:04:04.590 --> 01:04:05.819
you write that piece?

2217
01:04:05.820 --> 01:04:07.229
Oh, my gosh.

2218
01:04:07.230 --> 01:04:09.449
I think I wrote it in like 2004.

2219
01:04:09.450 --> 01:04:10.919
Right. So it's like it's so long

2220
01:04:10.920 --> 01:04:11.849
ago. Yeah.

2221
01:04:11.850 --> 01:04:13.889
And yet, you know, given

2222
01:04:13.890 --> 01:04:15.749
the, you know, crackpot shit

2223
01:04:15.750 --> 01:04:17.399
that's like, raging right now, like,

2224
01:04:17.400 --> 01:04:18.959
I was just so impressed in reading

2225
01:04:18.960 --> 01:04:20.009
it. I mean, I guess I would just

2226
01:04:20.010 --> 01:04:21.269
say, like, when I read the essay of

2227
01:04:21.270 --> 01:04:22.349
Michelle's or something, Michelle is

2228
01:04:22.350 --> 01:04:23.489
so good at

2229
01:04:25.050 --> 01:04:27.119
really having a standpoint

2230
01:04:27.120 --> 01:04:28.709
about this is about like a michigan

2231
01:04:28.710 --> 01:04:30.479
women's, you know, music festival

2232
01:04:30.480 --> 01:04:32.429
and camp trends kind

2233
01:04:32.430 --> 01:04:33.899
of cropping up outside of it in

2234
01:04:33.900 --> 01:04:36.059
protest of it's like,

2235
01:04:36.060 --> 01:04:37.889
you know, women

2236
01:04:37.890 --> 01:04:40.529
only, you know, women whatever

2237
01:04:40.530 --> 01:04:42.269
they same policies.

2238
01:04:42.270 --> 01:04:43.270
But I think

2239
01:04:44.490 --> 01:04:46.409
but whereby I don't come away from

2240
01:04:46.410 --> 01:04:47.670
the peers feeling like

2241
01:04:48.810 --> 01:04:51.149
like like like she's written

2242
01:04:53.070 --> 01:04:54.869
really healthy like respect and

2243
01:04:54.870 --> 01:04:56.699
understanding into the

2244
01:04:56.700 --> 01:04:58.289
people who run the Michigan women's

2245
01:04:58.290 --> 01:04:59.519
means to first of all like with

2246
01:04:59.520 --> 01:05:00.749
almost like everybody that you talk

2247
01:05:00.750 --> 01:05:02.429
to. But it doesn't keep you from

2248
01:05:02.430 --> 01:05:04.109
like saying what you think, right?

2249
01:05:04.110 --> 01:05:05.009
They're still wrong.

2250
01:05:05.010 --> 01:05:05.489
Yeah.

2251
01:05:05.490 --> 01:05:06.749
Well, yeah, but I just.

2252
01:05:06.750 --> 01:05:07.799
Mean sometimes, like, you know,

2253
01:05:07.800 --> 01:05:09.029
sometimes you just you do know what

2254
01:05:09.030 --> 01:05:09.989
you think about something.

2255
01:05:09.990 --> 01:05:11.089
But but.

2256
01:05:11.090 --> 01:05:12.899
It's, but it's, but it's an

2257
01:05:12.900 --> 01:05:15.029
experience like, of reading

2258
01:05:15.030 --> 01:05:16.949
like going through that essay that I

2259
01:05:16.950 --> 01:05:17.950
think.

2260
01:05:20.690 --> 01:05:22.129
It's just very different if you just

2261
01:05:22.130 --> 01:05:24.109
start off being like, you know,

2262
01:05:24.110 --> 01:05:25.129
these people are evil, they're

2263
01:05:25.130 --> 01:05:26.149
wrong. Like, it's just it's just

2264
01:05:26.150 --> 01:05:27.559
it's a it's a very whatever.

2265
01:05:27.560 --> 01:05:28.519
She's just really good at it.

2266
01:05:28.520 --> 01:05:29.959
And I actually and she has an essay

2267
01:05:29.960 --> 01:05:30.919
in there called How Not to Be a

2268
01:05:30.920 --> 01:05:33.199
Queer Douchebag, which is also

2269
01:05:33.200 --> 01:05:35.029
like it takes, I think, one of the

2270
01:05:35.030 --> 01:05:36.919
hardest genres, which is the

2271
01:05:36.920 --> 01:05:38.869
kind of like sermon or like

2272
01:05:38.870 --> 01:05:41.179
speech to the youth or something,

2273
01:05:41.180 --> 01:05:43.249
and yet is not like doesn't

2274
01:05:43.250 --> 01:05:45.139
hit, you know, a wrong note like the

2275
01:05:45.140 --> 01:05:46.579
whole way through. So, you know,

2276
01:05:46.580 --> 01:05:47.580
yeah, it's hard to do.

2277
01:05:59.860 --> 01:06:00.819
Hey. Hi, Michelle.

2278
01:06:00.820 --> 01:06:02.469
T Kim is here.

2279
01:06:02.470 --> 01:06:03.339
I came here.

2280
01:06:03.340 --> 01:06:04.779
We go way back.

2281
01:06:04.780 --> 01:06:07.209
So what I always like to find.

2282
01:06:07.210 --> 01:06:08.619
This is a great conversation, by the

2283
01:06:08.620 --> 01:06:09.620
way, of

2284
01:06:11.020 --> 01:06:12.969
where were you from birth

2285
01:06:12.970 --> 01:06:16.269
to age 20 geographically?

2286
01:06:16.270 --> 01:06:18.069
Because I think that that forms a

2287
01:06:18.070 --> 01:06:19.629
lot of it.

2288
01:06:19.630 --> 01:06:20.979
You know, like, yes, there's the

2289
01:06:20.980 --> 01:06:22.629
parents. But I also think where

2290
01:06:22.630 --> 01:06:24.909
you're brought up has an impact

2291
01:06:24.910 --> 01:06:26.619
on where you go in your future and

2292
01:06:26.620 --> 01:06:27.399
things.

2293
01:06:27.400 --> 01:06:28.989
So I'm curious to hear that from

2294
01:06:28.990 --> 01:06:29.990
both of you.

2295
01:06:31.270 --> 01:06:32.069
Age, birth.

2296
01:06:32.070 --> 01:06:32.949
Yeah. I mean, I think that that's

2297
01:06:32.950 --> 01:06:34.689
true. And actually, I think that

2298
01:06:34.690 --> 01:06:36.609
when people were first asking

2299
01:06:36.610 --> 01:06:38.409
me, like, about this book, like,

2300
01:06:38.410 --> 01:06:39.489
where did it come from?

2301
01:06:39.490 --> 01:06:40.779
And I would have all these, like, intellectual

2302
01:06:40.780 --> 01:06:41.949
things like, oh, where Baldwin in a

2303
01:06:41.950 --> 01:06:43.119
rant had this amazing fight.

2304
01:06:43.120 --> 01:06:43.929
And I thought about in The New

2305
01:06:43.930 --> 01:06:45.129
Yorker, blah, blah, blah.

2306
01:06:45.130 --> 01:06:47.229
But then I was actually like,

2307
01:06:47.230 --> 01:06:48.789
I kind of also realized, like, I was

2308
01:06:48.790 --> 01:06:50.229
born, you know, right after the

2309
01:06:50.230 --> 01:06:51.979
Summer of Love in San Francisco,

2310
01:06:51.980 --> 01:06:52.869
which is where I grew up.

2311
01:06:52.870 --> 01:06:54.069
And I went to high school in the

2312
01:06:54.070 --> 01:06:55.449
Haight-Ashbury, and I was kind of

2313
01:06:55.450 --> 01:06:57.309
like living like in the

2314
01:06:57.310 --> 01:06:59.229
literal ruins of, like the

2315
01:06:59.230 --> 01:07:01.059
dream of of of a certain kind

2316
01:07:01.060 --> 01:07:02.319
of liberation, you know, like with,

2317
01:07:02.320 --> 01:07:04.239
like skinheads just kicking hippies

2318
01:07:04.240 --> 01:07:05.769
and Mexican blankets on the, you

2319
01:07:05.770 --> 01:07:07.269
know, in front of the, you know, New

2320
01:07:07.270 --> 01:07:08.559
Ben and Jerry's in the corner.

2321
01:07:08.560 --> 01:07:09.489
And, you know, it was just like a

2322
01:07:09.490 --> 01:07:11.529
real eighties comedown,

2323
01:07:11.530 --> 01:07:13.629
you know, from from

2324
01:07:13.630 --> 01:07:14.709
this other era.

2325
01:07:14.710 --> 01:07:16.629
But and it and, and I didn't

2326
01:07:16.630 --> 01:07:18.039
know because I was young.

2327
01:07:18.040 --> 01:07:20.559
I didn't know about

2328
01:07:20.560 --> 01:07:21.489
neoliberalism.

2329
01:07:21.490 --> 01:07:23.349
I didn't know like about what had

2330
01:07:23.350 --> 01:07:25.059
kind of been wrought economically.

2331
01:07:25.060 --> 01:07:26.499
I didn't know a lot of like, the

2332
01:07:26.500 --> 01:07:28.269
factors going into it, but I didn't

2333
01:07:28.270 --> 01:07:30.009
know that people really were having

2334
01:07:30.010 --> 01:07:32.079
a real feeling like

2335
01:07:32.080 --> 01:07:33.189
we tried something.

2336
01:07:33.190 --> 01:07:34.869
And it's now it's like not good.

2337
01:07:34.870 --> 01:07:36.639
And, you know, like, you know, speed

2338
01:07:36.640 --> 01:07:37.959
was the heavy drug.

2339
01:07:37.960 --> 01:07:39.729
No, it was no psychedelics.

2340
01:07:39.730 --> 01:07:41.109
I mean, anyways, I grew up and I

2341
01:07:41.110 --> 01:07:42.110
grew up there

2342
01:07:43.300 --> 01:07:45.159
and then, you know,

2343
01:07:45.160 --> 01:07:46.989
but I will also say that by the end

2344
01:07:46.990 --> 01:07:48.309
of my high school time in San

2345
01:07:48.310 --> 01:07:50.769
Francisco, you know, AIDS had or

2346
01:07:50.770 --> 01:07:52.119
early, you know, AIDS AIDS had hit

2347
01:07:52.120 --> 01:07:54.039
the city. And I talk

2348
01:07:54.040 --> 01:07:55.689
about in that sex chapter how like

2349
01:07:55.690 --> 01:07:57.219
people didn't come to do consent

2350
01:07:57.220 --> 01:07:58.059
workshops or anything.

2351
01:07:58.060 --> 01:07:58.959
Everybody who came to my high

2352
01:07:58.960 --> 01:08:01.359
school, you know, showed lesions

2353
01:08:01.360 --> 01:08:02.709
and talked about condoms.

2354
01:08:02.710 --> 01:08:04.119
And it was like it was really heavy.

2355
01:08:04.120 --> 01:08:05.589
But it was but that's where I first

2356
01:08:05.590 --> 01:08:06.790
also started to

2357
01:08:07.870 --> 01:08:09.819
hear gay men talk about sex

2358
01:08:09.820 --> 01:08:11.769
and got really excited about

2359
01:08:11.770 --> 01:08:13.179
me. I quote Amber Hall about saying

2360
01:08:13.180 --> 01:08:14.799
that she learned as a lesbian from

2361
01:08:14.800 --> 01:08:16.299
gay men. She said as and one of my

2362
01:08:16.300 --> 01:08:18.309
favorite quotes, she says, I learned

2363
01:08:18.310 --> 01:08:20.139
from them, you know, like not to

2364
01:08:20.140 --> 01:08:21.489
say something tastes bad before you

2365
01:08:21.490 --> 01:08:23.349
try it, you know, like, like as

2366
01:08:23.350 --> 01:08:24.459
a sexual practice.

2367
01:08:24.460 --> 01:08:26.079
And I so I was like there was a lot

2368
01:08:26.080 --> 01:08:27.339
of learning there. And then I moved

2369
01:08:27.340 --> 01:08:28.749
to the East Coast. I went to college

2370
01:08:28.750 --> 01:08:30.099
in the East Coast, and then I moved,

2371
01:08:30.100 --> 01:08:32.769
you know, to New York

2372
01:08:32.770 --> 01:08:34.869
right after I turn, I guess, right?

2373
01:08:34.870 --> 01:08:36.068
Yeah, like two months after I turned

2374
01:08:36.069 --> 01:08:38.259
21 and then lived there for

2375
01:08:38.260 --> 01:08:39.249
the next many years.

2376
01:08:39.250 --> 01:08:41.199
But I think that those

2377
01:08:41.200 --> 01:08:42.460
scenes.

2378
01:08:44.870 --> 01:08:46.849
Gave me a lot of sense of

2379
01:08:46.850 --> 01:08:47.850
both. What?

2380
01:08:48.630 --> 01:08:50.970
Was not going well, but also.

2381
01:08:52.210 --> 01:08:53.949
Again with like when I moved to New

2382
01:08:53.950 --> 01:08:55.049
York and it was like David

2383
01:08:55.050 --> 01:08:56.978
vulnerability in this whole other

2384
01:08:56.979 --> 01:08:59.769
scene, again, very HIV related.

2385
01:08:59.770 --> 01:09:02.259
I was just but I was just so

2386
01:09:03.399 --> 01:09:04.839
in addition to all the things that

2387
01:09:04.840 --> 01:09:06.818
were going so terribly, I was

2388
01:09:06.819 --> 01:09:09.188
also getting such a deep education

2389
01:09:09.189 --> 01:09:11.259
in, in, in the power

2390
01:09:11.260 --> 01:09:13.299
of like what one

2391
01:09:13.300 --> 01:09:15.278
could have or be in a life even

2392
01:09:15.279 --> 01:09:16.659
in the midst of those circumstances.

2393
01:09:16.660 --> 01:09:17.889
So it was pretty. It was pretty.

2394
01:09:17.890 --> 01:09:19.749
You know, it was I felt pretty

2395
01:09:19.750 --> 01:09:20.889
lucky.

2396
01:09:20.890 --> 01:09:22.778
You are lucky that also it's like,

2397
01:09:22.779 --> 01:09:23.889
where do you go when you're born In

2398
01:09:23.890 --> 01:09:25.148
San Francisco.

2399
01:09:25.149 --> 01:09:26.259
To New York?

2400
01:09:26.260 --> 01:09:27.159
Oh, yeah, of course.

2401
01:09:27.160 --> 01:09:28.959
Yeah, totally.

2402
01:09:28.960 --> 01:09:30.699
I was I grew up in a city called

2403
01:09:30.700 --> 01:09:32.379
Chelsea that's outside of Boston.

2404
01:09:32.380 --> 01:09:33.429
It's, um.

2405
01:09:33.430 --> 01:09:34.509
It's like a very, you know, it's

2406
01:09:34.510 --> 01:09:36.549
very close to Boston, but everyone

2407
01:09:36.550 --> 01:09:38.499
nobody in Chelsea and that I

2408
01:09:38.500 --> 01:09:40.269
knew growing up would go into Boston

2409
01:09:40.270 --> 01:09:41.858
because you'd get raped.

2410
01:09:41.859 --> 01:09:43.629
But Chelsea was really violent, you

2411
01:09:43.630 --> 01:09:45.068
know, It was just was like a very it

2412
01:09:45.069 --> 01:09:46.600
was very it's a it's a city

2413
01:09:47.620 --> 01:09:49.539
that has always had

2414
01:09:49.540 --> 01:09:50.349
immigrants.

2415
01:09:50.350 --> 01:09:52.478
So, you know, like my,

2416
01:09:52.479 --> 01:09:53.829
you know, grandparents, great

2417
01:09:53.830 --> 01:09:54.819
grandparents were like Irish

2418
01:09:54.820 --> 01:09:56.709
immigrants. And when I was growing

2419
01:09:56.710 --> 01:09:58.569
up, when my mother was

2420
01:09:58.570 --> 01:09:59.829
growing up, there was Italian

2421
01:09:59.830 --> 01:10:01.179
immigrants. And it's very racist.

2422
01:10:01.180 --> 01:10:03.069
It's like very like I mean, the

2423
01:10:03.070 --> 01:10:04.419
kind of racist that, like, my

2424
01:10:04.420 --> 01:10:05.379
grandfather couldn't believe.

2425
01:10:05.380 --> 01:10:07.389
I had an Italian friend like,

2426
01:10:07.390 --> 01:10:09.219
which I was just like, But these are

2427
01:10:09.220 --> 01:10:10.149
white people, you know, It's just

2428
01:10:10.150 --> 01:10:11.439
like none of it made sense.

2429
01:10:11.440 --> 01:10:13.599
It was very, very

2430
01:10:13.600 --> 01:10:15.699
wild. And it's,

2431
01:10:15.700 --> 01:10:17.769
um, yeah, I just really

2432
01:10:17.770 --> 01:10:19.599
think of it as a very sort of like a

2433
01:10:19.600 --> 01:10:20.919
place where, like all of the white

2434
01:10:20.920 --> 01:10:22.749
people were super resentful

2435
01:10:22.750 --> 01:10:23.979
of all of the next waves of

2436
01:10:23.980 --> 01:10:25.179
immigrants who were people of color.

2437
01:10:25.180 --> 01:10:27.339
And it was a really tense

2438
01:10:27.340 --> 01:10:29.859
it's a very tense place to be.

2439
01:10:29.860 --> 01:10:31.929
And I was trying to say about it,

2440
01:10:31.930 --> 01:10:33.789
it's it pops up in the news

2441
01:10:33.790 --> 01:10:35.349
sometimes in these really weird ways

2442
01:10:35.350 --> 01:10:36.919
where like there was like a 60

2443
01:10:36.920 --> 01:10:38.229
Minutes episode about it because it

2444
01:10:38.230 --> 01:10:40.209
became the only city and in

2445
01:10:40.210 --> 01:10:41.799
the in the nation that wasn't

2446
01:10:41.800 --> 01:10:42.849
governing itself, it like went

2447
01:10:42.850 --> 01:10:44.119
bankrupt or something.

2448
01:10:44.120 --> 01:10:45.429
And then with COVID, it was in the

2449
01:10:45.430 --> 01:10:46.719
news again, too, because it was like

2450
01:10:46.720 --> 01:10:48.939
the had the highest

2451
01:10:48.940 --> 01:10:49.929
COVID numbers in all of

2452
01:10:49.930 --> 01:10:50.769
Massachusetts.

2453
01:10:50.770 --> 01:10:52.329
And just a little bit of a rough

2454
01:10:52.330 --> 01:10:53.229
place.

2455
01:10:53.230 --> 01:10:55.239
You know, I, I lived there until

2456
01:10:55.240 --> 01:10:57.179
I was 20, 21.

2457
01:10:57.180 --> 01:10:59.919
I chased a girl to Tucson, Arizona,

2458
01:10:59.920 --> 01:11:01.749
who was horrible, but thank God, got

2459
01:11:01.750 --> 01:11:04.119
me out of Massachusetts.

2460
01:11:04.120 --> 01:11:05.919
And then my best friend moved to San

2461
01:11:05.920 --> 01:11:07.329
Francisco. And so when the Tucson

2462
01:11:07.330 --> 01:11:09.099
girl kind of tanked, I just went to

2463
01:11:09.100 --> 01:11:10.599
San Francisco because I didn't know

2464
01:11:10.600 --> 01:11:11.709
where else to go. I knew there was

2465
01:11:11.710 --> 01:11:12.969
nothing in Massachusetts.

2466
01:11:12.970 --> 01:11:14.889
So and next thing you know, fist in

2467
01:11:14.890 --> 01:11:15.890
on the dance floor.

2468
01:11:17.860 --> 01:11:18.759
It's true.

2469
01:11:18.760 --> 01:11:20.589
I went from reading like the

2470
01:11:20.590 --> 01:11:23.259
horrible Janice Raymond in Arizona

2471
01:11:23.260 --> 01:11:25.419
to, you know, Pat Califia

2472
01:11:25.420 --> 01:11:27.069
Patrick Califia in San Francisco.

2473
01:11:27.070 --> 01:11:28.899
So we just end up we were

2474
01:11:28.900 --> 01:11:29.900
meant to be.

2475
01:11:35.110 --> 01:11:36.939
Hi. Um, I have

2476
01:11:36.940 --> 01:11:38.439
to say, I appreciate everything you

2477
01:11:38.440 --> 01:11:40.869
guys have said so much, but I

2478
01:11:40.870 --> 01:11:42.849
like talking into a microphone is

2479
01:11:42.850 --> 01:11:43.959
what I admire most.

2480
01:11:43.960 --> 01:11:45.519
I always feel like my voice is too

2481
01:11:45.520 --> 01:11:47.619
loud, so it's nice to,

2482
01:11:47.620 --> 01:11:49.749
like, I don't know, see,

2483
01:11:49.750 --> 01:11:51.399
people I really respect able to do

2484
01:11:51.400 --> 01:11:53.289
that, but

2485
01:11:53.290 --> 01:11:54.279
it's like a trade thing.

2486
01:11:54.280 --> 01:11:56.469
Sorry, but, um.

2487
01:11:56.470 --> 01:11:57.519
Okay, I'm probably going to ask this

2488
01:11:57.520 --> 01:11:59.259
question in a really messy way, but

2489
01:11:59.260 --> 01:12:00.260
like.

2490
01:12:00.610 --> 01:12:03.399
I have this issue where I

2491
01:12:03.400 --> 01:12:04.989
well, I don't want to call it an

2492
01:12:04.990 --> 01:12:06.729
issue necessarily, but like, I'll

2493
01:12:06.730 --> 01:12:08.649
think about things that I care about

2494
01:12:08.650 --> 01:12:10.629
a lot and I kind of have this

2495
01:12:10.630 --> 01:12:12.669
image in my head of like my

2496
01:12:12.670 --> 01:12:14.619
thoughts as this giant spiral of

2497
01:12:14.620 --> 01:12:16.839
words that kind of just like,

2498
01:12:16.840 --> 01:12:18.669
eventually end up strangling

2499
01:12:18.670 --> 01:12:20.139
me because I think about it too much

2500
01:12:20.140 --> 01:12:22.269
or I think about it to

2501
01:12:22.270 --> 01:12:24.759
a degree that is just obsessive

2502
01:12:24.760 --> 01:12:26.109
and compulsive.

2503
01:12:26.110 --> 01:12:28.329
And I guess what I want to know is

2504
01:12:28.330 --> 01:12:30.399
you both think so deeply

2505
01:12:30.400 --> 01:12:32.169
about things that I care about a lot

2506
01:12:32.170 --> 01:12:34.569
that I want to keep thinking about,

2507
01:12:34.570 --> 01:12:36.069
but I don't want to strangle myself.

2508
01:12:36.070 --> 01:12:38.079
So like, is there any

2509
01:12:38.080 --> 01:12:40.269
advice you have about how to balance

2510
01:12:40.270 --> 01:12:42.339
contemplation versus

2511
01:12:42.340 --> 01:12:43.329
rumination?

2512
01:12:43.330 --> 01:12:45.219
Or if those two things are even

2513
01:12:45.220 --> 01:12:47.139
like binary opposites, Do you have

2514
01:12:47.140 --> 01:12:49.509
any advice about how to not like

2515
01:12:49.510 --> 01:12:50.469
crusher self?

2516
01:12:50.470 --> 01:12:51.909
And do you want to do you want to

2517
01:12:51.910 --> 01:12:53.109
write them down? Like, is that

2518
01:12:53.110 --> 01:12:54.039
something that you try?

2519
01:12:54.040 --> 01:12:55.659
Like a practice you try and do?

2520
01:12:55.660 --> 01:12:57.579
Yeah. Usually ends up

2521
01:12:57.580 --> 01:12:59.409
going poorly, like with

2522
01:12:59.410 --> 01:13:01.269
my head in my hands, like, Oh my

2523
01:13:01.270 --> 01:13:02.619
God, I have to stop.

2524
01:13:02.620 --> 01:13:03.620
But yeah.

2525
01:13:07.780 --> 01:13:09.579
I mean, it's like two questions,

2526
01:13:09.580 --> 01:13:10.809
right? Like it sounds like one.

2527
01:13:10.810 --> 01:13:12.129
Like, how do you, like, take care of

2528
01:13:12.130 --> 01:13:13.719
your head and then another like, how

2529
01:13:13.720 --> 01:13:15.429
do you write it all out?

2530
01:13:15.430 --> 01:13:16.430
Is that true?

2531
01:13:17.950 --> 01:13:19.589
I mean.

2532
01:13:19.590 --> 01:13:21.419
Maybe the have you just

2533
01:13:21.420 --> 01:13:22.739
tried instead of writing about ideas

2534
01:13:22.740 --> 01:13:24.329
to just write about experiences?

2535
01:13:25.860 --> 01:13:27.359
Try that.

2536
01:13:27.360 --> 01:13:28.799
Try that. And then casino.

2537
01:13:28.800 --> 01:13:30.359
A lot of writing is like show don't

2538
01:13:30.360 --> 01:13:32.309
tell you know and a lot of like

2539
01:13:32.310 --> 01:13:34.079
if you're a kid you could just be

2540
01:13:34.080 --> 01:13:35.909
you know if you just show yourself

2541
01:13:35.910 --> 01:13:37.859
in action or you know it could

2542
01:13:37.860 --> 01:13:40.079
end up embodying

2543
01:13:40.080 --> 01:13:41.369
the kind of things that you're that

2544
01:13:41.370 --> 01:13:42.929
you care about kind of can come

2545
01:13:42.930 --> 01:13:44.789
through in that way, maybe without

2546
01:13:44.790 --> 01:13:46.889
you even trying that hard, you know?

2547
01:13:48.310 --> 01:13:49.510
And for everything else, Buddhism.

2548
01:13:51.190 --> 01:13:52.569
I mean, it seems like, I don't know.

2549
01:13:52.570 --> 01:13:53.919
Your mind sounds like an interesting

2550
01:13:53.920 --> 01:13:54.849
place. You know, I like this.

2551
01:13:54.850 --> 01:13:56.469
I like this idea of the spirals and

2552
01:13:56.470 --> 01:13:57.339
like all the things you're doing with

2553
01:13:57.340 --> 01:13:58.299
your hands. I thought it was really

2554
01:13:58.300 --> 01:14:00.369
interesting. And I and I think,

2555
01:14:00.370 --> 01:14:01.539
you know, everyone thinks really

2556
01:14:01.540 --> 01:14:02.499
differently, you know?

2557
01:14:02.500 --> 01:14:04.149
So it's really like getting to know

2558
01:14:04.150 --> 01:14:05.649
your own mind, you know?

2559
01:14:05.650 --> 01:14:07.569
And I've and I think

2560
01:14:07.570 --> 01:14:09.069
I mean, I will say that the reason

2561
01:14:09.070 --> 01:14:10.569
why I asked you about writing is

2562
01:14:10.570 --> 01:14:11.750
that, um.

2563
01:14:13.930 --> 01:14:14.979
You know, I think a lot of people,

2564
01:14:14.980 --> 01:14:16.359
like, I might have like an idea

2565
01:14:16.360 --> 01:14:18.039
like, oh, all this big heavy

2566
01:14:18.040 --> 01:14:18.939
thoughts about freedom.

2567
01:14:18.940 --> 01:14:20.559
And then it always turns into just

2568
01:14:20.560 --> 01:14:22.389
being like, and here's the book I

2569
01:14:22.390 --> 01:14:24.249
wrote. Like, like, like it never

2570
01:14:24.250 --> 01:14:26.439
matches the swirl,

2571
01:14:26.440 --> 01:14:28.989
you know, because it has to become

2572
01:14:28.990 --> 01:14:30.549
you know, it has to manifest, you

2573
01:14:30.550 --> 01:14:32.379
know, And I think but I think

2574
01:14:32.380 --> 01:14:34.869
the longer you go on as a writer

2575
01:14:34.870 --> 01:14:36.039
and this is why, if you like

2576
01:14:36.040 --> 01:14:37.179
writing, like, I would encourage you

2577
01:14:37.180 --> 01:14:39.069
to do it, is that like that

2578
01:14:39.070 --> 01:14:40.929
moment when you start to try and

2579
01:14:40.930 --> 01:14:42.969
put the swirling thought into a into

2580
01:14:42.970 --> 01:14:45.609
language is actually,

2581
01:14:45.610 --> 01:14:47.619
you know, a good friend of mine,

2582
01:14:47.620 --> 01:14:48.819
a writer I respect a lot.

2583
01:14:48.820 --> 01:14:50.709
Wayne Custom has talked about

2584
01:14:50.710 --> 01:14:52.089
it as like the moment that you enter

2585
01:14:52.090 --> 01:14:54.279
prison, like the prison

2586
01:14:54.280 --> 01:14:55.989
of the sentence, like it's syntax

2587
01:14:55.990 --> 01:14:58.179
like and suddenly the swirl hits

2588
01:14:58.180 --> 01:15:00.309
like word, syntax

2589
01:15:00.310 --> 01:15:02.079
like. And even though that's like,

2590
01:15:02.080 --> 01:15:03.549
sounds awful to me, prison is

2591
01:15:03.550 --> 01:15:05.379
actually like, now you're in

2592
01:15:05.380 --> 01:15:07.269
a new problem, you know, now you're

2593
01:15:07.270 --> 01:15:08.799
in a new problem. And the problem is

2594
01:15:08.800 --> 01:15:10.629
the sentence. The problem is what?

2595
01:15:10.630 --> 01:15:11.889
How do I get this thing?

2596
01:15:11.890 --> 01:15:13.059
And then like what you thought.

2597
01:15:13.060 --> 01:15:15.609
You thought mid-sentence

2598
01:15:15.610 --> 01:15:17.409
is maybe not what you thought or

2599
01:15:17.410 --> 01:15:18.499
it's that's interesting.

2600
01:15:18.500 --> 01:15:20.019
It was or maybe if you change the

2601
01:15:20.020 --> 01:15:21.549
verb, the thought, you know, the

2602
01:15:21.550 --> 01:15:23.439
kaleidoscope clicks on your thought.

2603
01:15:23.440 --> 01:15:25.269
And so to me, you know,

2604
01:15:25.270 --> 01:15:27.249
now I'm

2605
01:15:27.250 --> 01:15:28.569
not really interested in my swirl of

2606
01:15:28.570 --> 01:15:29.829
thoughts anymore. Like, I'm really

2607
01:15:29.830 --> 01:15:31.119
interested in the latter part

2608
01:15:31.120 --> 01:15:32.409
because I know nothing really

2609
01:15:32.410 --> 01:15:33.999
happens with my thoughts until I

2610
01:15:34.000 --> 01:15:35.829
start articulating them,

2611
01:15:35.830 --> 01:15:36.639
you know?

2612
01:15:36.640 --> 01:15:38.499
So I think kind of the faster you

2613
01:15:38.500 --> 01:15:40.119
can get to that place, maybe they'll

2614
01:15:40.120 --> 01:15:41.649
ask, the former might bother you.

2615
01:15:41.650 --> 01:15:43.089
I'm not sure, but that might be my

2616
01:15:43.090 --> 01:15:44.260
suspicion, you know.

2617
01:15:47.020 --> 01:15:48.489
Hello. Hi.

2618
01:15:48.490 --> 01:15:49.519
Okay.

2619
01:15:49.520 --> 01:15:51.399
Um, thank you guys for

2620
01:15:51.400 --> 01:15:52.659
what you said tonight.

2621
01:15:52.660 --> 01:15:54.279
Um, I'm.

2622
01:15:54.280 --> 01:15:55.280
I'm very.

2623
01:15:56.230 --> 01:15:58.059
Just excited when I hear

2624
01:15:58.060 --> 01:15:59.559
both of you speak about the way

2625
01:15:59.560 --> 01:16:01.659
you've chased life experience

2626
01:16:01.660 --> 01:16:03.519
and whether it's intentionally or

2627
01:16:03.520 --> 01:16:04.449
not.

2628
01:16:04.450 --> 01:16:07.029
And very curious, because

2629
01:16:07.030 --> 01:16:09.099
I similarly have, you know, whether

2630
01:16:09.100 --> 01:16:10.839
it's to do drugs, sex, art or, you

2631
01:16:10.840 --> 01:16:12.759
know, climate and condition

2632
01:16:12.760 --> 01:16:14.829
and both, you know,

2633
01:16:14.830 --> 01:16:16.149
global and personal.

2634
01:16:17.620 --> 01:16:19.359
I've sort of chased that experience

2635
01:16:19.360 --> 01:16:21.009
to find freedom, right, to find

2636
01:16:21.010 --> 01:16:22.179
liberation.

2637
01:16:22.180 --> 01:16:24.039
And then it's that story

2638
01:16:24.040 --> 01:16:26.169
you reflect back on, Oh,

2639
01:16:26.170 --> 01:16:28.179
I'm older. Was I being liberated?

2640
01:16:28.180 --> 01:16:29.439
Oh, my God. Or was I told that I

2641
01:16:29.440 --> 01:16:30.399
wanted that?

2642
01:16:30.400 --> 01:16:31.299
Oh, was it?

2643
01:16:31.300 --> 01:16:32.289
And it's you were you're saying

2644
01:16:32.290 --> 01:16:33.549
with, like a crystal meth and then

2645
01:16:33.550 --> 01:16:34.869
I'm sober and then it's.

2646
01:16:34.870 --> 01:16:37.029
Well, was that good, actually.

2647
01:16:37.030 --> 01:16:38.949
And so I'm wondering when

2648
01:16:38.950 --> 01:16:40.869
and how you both recognize

2649
01:16:40.870 --> 01:16:43.059
those moments of freedom and

2650
01:16:43.060 --> 01:16:45.069
whether or not you let that

2651
01:16:45.070 --> 01:16:47.019
be, you know, fluid

2652
01:16:47.020 --> 01:16:48.879
and sometimes realized that it was

2653
01:16:48.880 --> 01:16:51.429
actually the incarceration or

2654
01:16:51.430 --> 01:16:53.499
it can solidify and stay

2655
01:16:53.500 --> 01:16:55.269
as moments of freedom through

2656
01:16:55.270 --> 01:16:57.189
whatever, you know,

2657
01:16:57.190 --> 01:16:58.840
expression it takes form in.

2658
01:17:01.290 --> 01:17:02.879
It's the paradox again.

2659
01:17:02.880 --> 01:17:04.019
I know. I mean, it's so.

2660
01:17:04.020 --> 01:17:04.979
Dan Cohen, again.

2661
01:17:04.980 --> 01:17:06.809
It's so deep, though, because,

2662
01:17:06.810 --> 01:17:08.369
I mean, the end of the drug chapter

2663
01:17:08.370 --> 01:17:10.859
in this book has a kind of long

2664
01:17:10.860 --> 01:17:13.379
thing about the way

2665
01:17:13.380 --> 01:17:14.380
that,

2666
01:17:16.320 --> 01:17:17.639
you know, like the reason why people

2667
01:17:17.640 --> 01:17:19.739
might say like that, that,

2668
01:17:19.740 --> 01:17:21.149
you know, an addiction is like, you

2669
01:17:21.150 --> 01:17:23.159
know, like a self-diagnosed

2670
01:17:23.160 --> 01:17:25.079
like disease is because it's

2671
01:17:25.080 --> 01:17:26.999
really like, oh, only something

2672
01:17:27.000 --> 01:17:28.589
that you can know, like, like

2673
01:17:28.590 --> 01:17:29.399
there's some kind of intimate

2674
01:17:29.400 --> 01:17:31.049
relationship with, like.

2675
01:17:31.050 --> 01:17:32.729
And as I say, like, only, you know,

2676
01:17:32.730 --> 01:17:33.730
when something

2677
01:17:36.540 --> 01:17:38.429
you know, I say like other

2678
01:17:38.430 --> 01:17:40.229
yes. I mean that once really may

2679
01:17:40.230 --> 01:17:42.209
have delivered liberation, maybe

2680
01:17:42.210 --> 01:17:44.159
now has soured or now is

2681
01:17:44.160 --> 01:17:45.239
delivering. And it's not like a

2682
01:17:45.240 --> 01:17:46.709
switch to I mean, it's like and I

2683
01:17:46.710 --> 01:17:47.669
think I actually liked it.

2684
01:17:47.670 --> 01:17:48.809
Michel, When you said earlier, what

2685
01:17:48.810 --> 01:17:49.859
did you say? You said something

2686
01:17:49.860 --> 01:17:51.689
like, I

2687
01:17:51.690 --> 01:17:52.709
don't know. You said something that

2688
01:17:52.710 --> 01:17:53.909
kind of indicated that like a

2689
01:17:53.910 --> 01:17:55.859
previous experience of drugs

2690
01:17:55.860 --> 01:17:58.169
or alcohol was like

2691
01:17:58.170 --> 01:17:59.579
you weren't out lot or like, at all.

2692
01:17:59.580 --> 01:18:00.389
You've reconsidered.

2693
01:18:00.390 --> 01:18:01.529
Like first you were like, Oh, God,

2694
01:18:01.530 --> 01:18:02.339
that was entrapment.

2695
01:18:02.340 --> 01:18:03.929
And now you're like, Oh, maybe I was

2696
01:18:03.930 --> 01:18:05.069
that was rad or whatever.

2697
01:18:05.070 --> 01:18:06.720
But that kind of like

2698
01:18:07.740 --> 01:18:09.689
those self reflections over like

2699
01:18:09.690 --> 01:18:12.659
a life to me are

2700
01:18:12.660 --> 01:18:14.579
I like it would be very boring if we

2701
01:18:14.580 --> 01:18:16.439
decided upon the story, right?

2702
01:18:16.440 --> 01:18:17.869
And like, if the story that we told

2703
01:18:17.870 --> 01:18:20.279
herself was like, you know,

2704
01:18:20.280 --> 01:18:21.449
you know, like one day you're like,

2705
01:18:21.450 --> 01:18:22.919
Oh, I was with that guy and he was a

2706
01:18:22.920 --> 01:18:24.279
villain and I was with him because I

2707
01:18:24.280 --> 01:18:25.439
was self-destructive. But now I'm

2708
01:18:25.440 --> 01:18:27.629
better and I choose better,

2709
01:18:27.630 --> 01:18:28.559
you know? And it's like and then

2710
01:18:28.560 --> 01:18:30.389
maybe, you know, ten years from now,

2711
01:18:30.390 --> 01:18:31.559
you're like, in a more self

2712
01:18:31.560 --> 01:18:32.819
forgiving, less like, you know,

2713
01:18:32.820 --> 01:18:34.679
maniacally healing state

2714
01:18:34.680 --> 01:18:36.509
and you suddenly realize

2715
01:18:36.510 --> 01:18:38.249
all these other things that you got

2716
01:18:38.250 --> 01:18:40.319
that were like, not what you like.

2717
01:18:40.320 --> 01:18:41.279
Whereas before it was really

2718
01:18:41.280 --> 01:18:42.539
important to where you were to just

2719
01:18:42.540 --> 01:18:43.739
see villainy and address

2720
01:18:43.740 --> 01:18:44.519
self-destruction.

2721
01:18:44.520 --> 01:18:46.559
But like, there's not ever one story

2722
01:18:46.560 --> 01:18:48.599
about it, right? So it's like,

2723
01:18:48.600 --> 01:18:50.309
I mean, I write about in the alcohol

2724
01:18:50.310 --> 01:18:52.139
chapter about how like

2725
01:18:52.140 --> 01:18:53.699
with this, not like on off switch

2726
01:18:53.700 --> 01:18:55.439
that like, you know, when I moved to

2727
01:18:55.440 --> 01:18:57.929
New York and I was, I by bartended,

2728
01:18:57.930 --> 01:18:59.429
you know, in like close up shop at

2729
01:18:59.430 --> 01:19:01.169
like, you know, two, three in the

2730
01:19:01.170 --> 01:19:02.549
morning, you know, having been

2731
01:19:02.550 --> 01:19:04.019
drinking, you know, a lot and like

2732
01:19:04.020 --> 01:19:06.239
walking home alone

2733
01:19:06.240 --> 01:19:07.529
to my apartment, you know,

2734
01:19:07.530 --> 01:19:09.119
staggering, whatever, you know, that

2735
01:19:09.120 --> 01:19:10.620
like, it was really.

2736
01:19:12.840 --> 01:19:14.849
You know, it couldn't last forever.

2737
01:19:14.850 --> 01:19:17.249
But but those were

2738
01:19:17.250 --> 01:19:19.259
like, given how fearful I'd been

2739
01:19:19.260 --> 01:19:21.239
as a teenager and given life

2740
01:19:21.240 --> 01:19:22.619
growing up under the shadow of my

2741
01:19:22.620 --> 01:19:24.779
mother's sisters, you know,

2742
01:19:24.780 --> 01:19:26.189
sexualized murder and some other

2743
01:19:26.190 --> 01:19:27.569
things like that was important for

2744
01:19:27.570 --> 01:19:29.189
me, you know? Does it mean that,

2745
01:19:30.660 --> 01:19:31.799
you know, it wasn't it wasn't all

2746
01:19:31.800 --> 01:19:33.419
one thing, but, you know, one can

2747
01:19:33.420 --> 01:19:35.369
still reject it and say, like, it's

2748
01:19:35.370 --> 01:19:36.149
not worth it.

2749
01:19:36.150 --> 01:19:37.409
It doesn't work anymore.

2750
01:19:37.410 --> 01:19:38.789
It's not what I want without

2751
01:19:38.790 --> 01:19:40.889
necessarily having one read

2752
01:19:40.890 --> 01:19:41.890
on it, you know?

2753
01:19:42.760 --> 01:19:44.409
Yeah, everything that Maggie just

2754
01:19:44.410 --> 01:19:45.729
said. I mean, it's just it's just

2755
01:19:45.730 --> 01:19:46.839
really it's about being comfortable

2756
01:19:46.840 --> 01:19:48.729
with the with it being

2757
01:19:48.730 --> 01:19:50.259
messy, with things, being not all

2758
01:19:50.260 --> 01:19:51.969
one thing, you know, that it's like

2759
01:19:51.970 --> 01:19:53.469
we we don't have to just, like,

2760
01:19:53.470 --> 01:19:54.969
completely condemn it or be like,

2761
01:19:54.970 --> 01:19:55.869
No, it was so great.

2762
01:19:55.870 --> 01:19:57.489
You know, it's like it's both

2763
01:19:57.490 --> 01:19:59.349
things, like most things in life,

2764
01:19:59.350 --> 01:20:00.519
right?

2765
01:20:00.520 --> 01:20:02.289
Also, what you describe about

2766
01:20:02.290 --> 01:20:03.879
looking back and seeing that you

2767
01:20:03.880 --> 01:20:05.529
were less free than maybe you'd

2768
01:20:05.530 --> 01:20:06.759
thought. I'm not sure that's quite

2769
01:20:06.760 --> 01:20:07.899
what you said. But like I mean, I

2770
01:20:07.900 --> 01:20:09.009
write about that a lot in this book

2771
01:20:09.010 --> 01:20:11.259
because there's something about time

2772
01:20:11.260 --> 01:20:13.119
that allows us to see the forces

2773
01:20:13.120 --> 01:20:14.559
that were pressing down on us and in

2774
01:20:14.560 --> 01:20:16.419
particular instant, that are

2775
01:20:16.420 --> 01:20:18.069
very difficult to see in the moment.

2776
01:20:18.070 --> 01:20:19.809
And so I think it's actually like a

2777
01:20:19.810 --> 01:20:21.939
really great way of like forgiving

2778
01:20:21.940 --> 01:20:23.409
ourselves things because in the

2779
01:20:23.410 --> 01:20:25.089
moment we can feel very like flush

2780
01:20:25.090 --> 01:20:26.499
with our agency or whatever.

2781
01:20:26.500 --> 01:20:28.299
And then later on we can be like,

2782
01:20:28.300 --> 01:20:29.889
oh, you know, like, you know, you

2783
01:20:29.890 --> 01:20:31.269
can call it karma, you can call it,

2784
01:20:31.270 --> 01:20:32.589
you know, your upbringing, you can

2785
01:20:32.590 --> 01:20:33.699
call it your trauma, you can call it

2786
01:20:33.700 --> 01:20:35.139
whatever you want. But all different

2787
01:20:35.140 --> 01:20:36.969
ways that you, you

2788
01:20:36.970 --> 01:20:39.009
know, got shaped, made

2789
01:20:39.010 --> 01:20:41.049
you make a decision at a moment.

2790
01:20:41.050 --> 01:20:43.089
And often it takes like 20 years

2791
01:20:43.090 --> 01:20:45.459
to understand why you made it

2792
01:20:45.460 --> 01:20:47.289
and to forgive what the forces

2793
01:20:47.290 --> 01:20:48.759
were on you, which were just weren't

2794
01:20:48.760 --> 01:20:49.809
clear, you know, or weren't

2795
01:20:49.810 --> 01:20:50.709
surmountable.

2796
01:20:50.710 --> 01:20:51.969
You know.

2797
01:20:51.970 --> 01:20:53.889
I always just think that, like, if

2798
01:20:53.890 --> 01:20:56.079
there are parts of my past that feel

2799
01:20:56.080 --> 01:20:58.269
that weird, like, why did I do

2800
01:20:58.270 --> 01:20:59.739
that? You know, like, to me I'm just

2801
01:20:59.740 --> 01:21:00.939
like, oh, I've completely lost touch

2802
01:21:00.940 --> 01:21:03.399
with the person I was at that moment

2803
01:21:03.400 --> 01:21:05.019
because everything I ever did made

2804
01:21:05.020 --> 01:21:06.999
sense in that moment, right?

2805
01:21:07.000 --> 01:21:08.979
It's just that time moves and

2806
01:21:08.980 --> 01:21:09.759
you change.

2807
01:21:09.760 --> 01:21:11.589
And I've lost my the

2808
01:21:11.590 --> 01:21:12.969
intimacy of connection with that

2809
01:21:12.970 --> 01:21:13.989
person. I was right.

2810
01:21:13.990 --> 01:21:15.309
That. And so you just have to kind

2811
01:21:15.310 --> 01:21:17.079
of sure for me, I'll just sort of

2812
01:21:17.080 --> 01:21:19.059
shrug at it a little bit, you

2813
01:21:19.060 --> 01:21:20.060
know?

2814
01:21:24.990 --> 01:21:26.819
I thank you

2815
01:21:26.820 --> 01:21:28.079
for being here.

2816
01:21:28.080 --> 01:21:29.249
And I'm wondering.

2817
01:21:29.250 --> 01:21:31.499
When you both

2818
01:21:31.500 --> 01:21:33.359
knew that you wanted to be writers

2819
01:21:33.360 --> 01:21:35.519
and what was the journey like from

2820
01:21:35.520 --> 01:21:37.529
that point to your

2821
01:21:37.530 --> 01:21:38.879
first book being published?

2822
01:21:40.020 --> 01:21:41.559
Oh, my God. I want to I want to read

2823
01:21:41.560 --> 01:21:42.419
to you. I'm not going to do it, but

2824
01:21:42.420 --> 01:21:43.739
I want to read to you the part from

2825
01:21:43.740 --> 01:21:44.999
against memoir where you talk,

2826
01:21:45.000 --> 01:21:46.109
Michele, about all the different

2827
01:21:46.110 --> 01:21:47.219
things you wrote growing up.

2828
01:21:47.220 --> 01:21:48.479
Can you just say a couple of them?

2829
01:21:48.480 --> 01:21:50.309
They were so amazing.

2830
01:21:50.310 --> 01:21:51.029
There's so much.

2831
01:21:51.030 --> 01:21:52.859
There. I wrote a lot when I was a

2832
01:21:52.860 --> 01:21:54.989
kid. I wrote I

2833
01:21:54.990 --> 01:21:56.249
got really inspired by Shel

2834
01:21:56.250 --> 01:21:57.659
Silverstein, and I started writing

2835
01:21:57.660 --> 01:21:59.009
wacky poetry when I was like in

2836
01:21:59.010 --> 01:22:00.089
third grade.

2837
01:22:00.090 --> 01:22:01.589
Poems like, I wrote this, like

2838
01:22:01.590 --> 01:22:03.929
really impassioned poem about, like,

2839
01:22:03.930 --> 01:22:05.819
Hunt Against hunting, you know, like

2840
01:22:05.820 --> 01:22:07.619
hunters or so I'd seen Bambi, right?

2841
01:22:07.620 --> 01:22:09.179
And that, like, hunters was like, I

2842
01:22:09.180 --> 01:22:10.499
lived in that most urban place.

2843
01:22:10.500 --> 01:22:12.029
I never met a hunter in my life, but

2844
01:22:12.030 --> 01:22:14.729
I was like, Hunters are a menace.

2845
01:22:14.730 --> 01:22:16.589
And then I started like a school

2846
01:22:16.590 --> 01:22:17.879
newspaper in second grade.

2847
01:22:17.880 --> 01:22:19.199
And I wrote a really great article

2848
01:22:19.200 --> 01:22:21.029
called Chicken Pox or Sweeping

2849
01:22:21.030 --> 01:22:22.439
the Second Grade.

2850
01:22:22.440 --> 01:22:24.359
And and I also did the jokes

2851
01:22:24.360 --> 01:22:25.769
column and the cartoons.

2852
01:22:25.770 --> 01:22:27.119
I did almost all of them.

2853
01:22:27.120 --> 01:22:29.159
And then when I was like in fifth

2854
01:22:29.160 --> 01:22:29.969
grade, I started writing

2855
01:22:29.970 --> 01:22:32.669
screenplays. I wrote an episode of

2856
01:22:32.670 --> 01:22:34.529
Oh, gosh, I wrote an episode of

2857
01:22:34.530 --> 01:22:36.539
The Facts of Life, in which Joe gets

2858
01:22:36.540 --> 01:22:38.429
the Go-Go's to perform

2859
01:22:38.430 --> 01:22:39.809
at the school.

2860
01:22:39.810 --> 01:22:41.699
I wrote that script, and then I

2861
01:22:41.700 --> 01:22:43.889
was writing short stories,

2862
01:22:43.890 --> 01:22:45.749
like inspired by, like really

2863
01:22:45.750 --> 01:22:46.649
lurid headlines.

2864
01:22:46.650 --> 01:22:48.479
Like in Massachusetts when I was

2865
01:22:48.480 --> 01:22:49.379
growing up, there were two different

2866
01:22:49.380 --> 01:22:51.389
newspapers. There was like

2867
01:22:51.390 --> 01:22:52.349
the Boston Globe, which was

2868
01:22:52.350 --> 01:22:53.399
respectable, and then there was the

2869
01:22:53.400 --> 01:22:54.509
Herald America. And that's like the

2870
01:22:54.510 --> 01:22:55.709
New York Post. You know, it's just

2871
01:22:55.710 --> 01:22:56.969
like trash.

2872
01:22:56.970 --> 01:22:58.259
And that was what my family read.

2873
01:22:58.260 --> 01:22:59.879
So there'd be always like kids

2874
01:22:59.880 --> 01:23:01.799
getting abused and murdered on

2875
01:23:01.800 --> 01:23:03.089
the cover, and I would just be like,

2876
01:23:03.090 --> 01:23:04.499
write these stories about these

2877
01:23:04.500 --> 01:23:06.149
abused and murdered children.

2878
01:23:06.150 --> 01:23:08.129
And I wrote one, I can't

2879
01:23:08.130 --> 01:23:09.719
even talk about it. It's too much.

2880
01:23:09.720 --> 01:23:10.819
It's too much.

2881
01:23:10.820 --> 01:23:12.239
It's funny. You guys will laugh and

2882
01:23:12.240 --> 01:23:13.319
feel bad about laughing.

2883
01:23:13.320 --> 01:23:14.729
And I don't want to do that to you.

2884
01:23:14.730 --> 01:23:16.589
But yeah, I wrote I wrote a lot when

2885
01:23:16.590 --> 01:23:17.640
I was little,

2886
01:23:18.720 --> 01:23:19.739
and I would like dedicate the

2887
01:23:19.740 --> 01:23:21.299
stories to, like these girls that

2888
01:23:21.300 --> 01:23:24.209
had been hurt by their parents.

2889
01:23:24.210 --> 01:23:25.319
And that was another thing you said

2890
01:23:25.320 --> 01:23:27.209
you did, which I also

2891
01:23:27.210 --> 01:23:29.069
really shamefaced oddly did

2892
01:23:29.070 --> 01:23:30.239
too, which was like you said, you

2893
01:23:30.240 --> 01:23:32.159
wrote like introductions or words

2894
01:23:32.160 --> 01:23:34.079
or things to things that you hadn't

2895
01:23:34.080 --> 01:23:34.919
like.

2896
01:23:34.920 --> 01:23:35.549
Like.

2897
01:23:35.550 --> 01:23:36.539
Oh, I tried to write.

2898
01:23:36.540 --> 01:23:37.859
Like I wrote blurbs for my book,

2899
01:23:37.860 --> 01:23:38.999
right? Yeah. Yeah.

2900
01:23:39.000 --> 01:23:39.959
Well, I didn't know. Like, I

2901
01:23:39.960 --> 01:23:41.459
remember actually in second grade,

2902
01:23:41.460 --> 01:23:43.239
it was very prolific in second grade

2903
01:23:43.240 --> 01:23:44.609
guys was very.

2904
01:23:44.610 --> 01:23:45.959
You are.

2905
01:23:45.960 --> 01:23:47.159
Oh, my God.

2906
01:23:48.380 --> 01:23:50.119
Yes, it's a very important time.

2907
01:23:50.120 --> 01:23:52.099
You're like getting your voice.

2908
01:23:52.100 --> 01:23:53.989
When I was in second grade,

2909
01:23:53.990 --> 01:23:55.519
I was like, I had gotten chicken

2910
01:23:55.520 --> 01:23:56.599
pox. I was trapped at home.

2911
01:23:56.600 --> 01:23:57.379
And I'm like, This is it.

2912
01:23:57.380 --> 01:23:58.669
I'm going to be really productive.

2913
01:23:58.670 --> 01:24:00.019
I'm going to write a novel.

2914
01:24:00.020 --> 01:24:01.699
And so I remember looking at a book

2915
01:24:01.700 --> 01:24:02.929
and being like, okay, first you draw

2916
01:24:02.930 --> 01:24:04.129
the cover, right?

2917
01:24:04.130 --> 01:24:05.329
And then like it had been like, I

2918
01:24:05.330 --> 01:24:06.379
don't know, like a Judy Blume book

2919
01:24:06.380 --> 01:24:07.579
or something. It was just like,

2920
01:24:07.580 --> 01:24:09.469
fantastic, you know, that Publishers

2921
01:24:09.470 --> 01:24:10.639
Weekly. So I would do that, you

2922
01:24:10.640 --> 01:24:11.929
know, incredible, you know?

2923
01:24:11.930 --> 01:24:13.129
And then I would write the synopsis

2924
01:24:13.130 --> 01:24:14.509
on the back.

2925
01:24:14.510 --> 01:24:16.999
And then I guess I was stumped.

2926
01:24:17.000 --> 01:24:18.079
I was trying to write an alternative

2927
01:24:18.080 --> 01:24:20.179
dictionary also of like

2928
01:24:20.180 --> 01:24:22.069
that was like humorous where like

2929
01:24:22.070 --> 01:24:24.290
abundance was a bun.

2930
01:24:25.490 --> 01:24:27.379
Get it, you know?

2931
01:24:27.380 --> 01:24:28.399
Yeah.

2932
01:24:28.400 --> 01:24:29.429
Lost material.

2933
01:24:29.430 --> 01:24:30.430
Michelle.

2934
01:24:31.380 --> 01:24:32.199
Yeah.

2935
01:24:32.200 --> 01:24:33.169
Yeah.

2936
01:24:33.170 --> 01:24:34.039
But what about you?

2937
01:24:34.040 --> 01:24:35.149
What was your.

2938
01:24:35.150 --> 01:24:36.379
Move on to? Another question, I

2939
01:24:36.380 --> 01:24:38.019
think. But, but let's just say Yeah,

2940
01:24:38.020 --> 01:24:40.219
like I have.

2941
01:24:40.220 --> 01:24:42.049
I was just mean to say that it's

2942
01:24:42.050 --> 01:24:44.689
Yeah, you know, similar,

2943
01:24:44.690 --> 01:24:46.129
we have different titles.

2944
01:24:46.130 --> 01:24:47.130
Okay, very good.

2945
01:24:48.270 --> 01:24:49.589
Oh, you mean to?

2946
01:24:49.590 --> 01:24:50.399
I don't know.

2947
01:24:50.400 --> 01:24:52.379
I want to. That's not my idea.

2948
01:24:53.730 --> 01:24:55.679
When did you decide you wanted to be

2949
01:24:55.680 --> 01:24:57.509
a teacher? And what

2950
01:24:57.510 --> 01:24:58.409
motivates you to.

2951
01:24:58.410 --> 01:24:59.969
Keep doing it?

2952
01:24:59.970 --> 01:25:01.019
When I decided I wanted to be a

2953
01:25:01.020 --> 01:25:02.039
teacher, you said?

2954
01:25:02.040 --> 01:25:03.779
Yeah. Was there a second part or No?

2955
01:25:03.780 --> 01:25:04.419
Yeah.

2956
01:25:04.420 --> 01:25:06.419
And what keeps you

2957
01:25:06.420 --> 01:25:08.849
motivated to keep teaching?

2958
01:25:08.850 --> 01:25:09.850
Teaching? Yeah.

2959
01:25:11.040 --> 01:25:12.159
I mean, I always say, like, Michelle,

2960
01:25:12.160 --> 01:25:13.019
and I think it's interesting. We have

2961
01:25:13.020 --> 01:25:14.069
so much in common, but I was

2962
01:25:14.070 --> 01:25:14.999
thinking here today.

2963
01:25:15.000 --> 01:25:15.959
But, you know, I kind of took this,

2964
01:25:15.960 --> 01:25:17.789
like, academic swerve that, like,

2965
01:25:17.790 --> 01:25:19.859
we don't share necessarily, but,

2966
01:25:19.860 --> 01:25:21.839
you know, it just but I think that

2967
01:25:21.840 --> 01:25:22.840
I,

2968
01:25:25.410 --> 01:25:27.329
I never really decided to be

2969
01:25:27.330 --> 01:25:29.759
a teacher, you know, but I just

2970
01:25:29.760 --> 01:25:31.829
pursued higher

2971
01:25:31.830 --> 01:25:33.959
education, you know,

2972
01:25:33.960 --> 01:25:35.909
and like, I moved to New York and I

2973
01:25:38.160 --> 01:25:40.289
did art and writing and

2974
01:25:40.290 --> 01:25:42.269
I was very involved in, I guess,

2975
01:25:42.270 --> 01:25:44.069
what you would call postmodern dance

2976
01:25:44.070 --> 01:25:44.969
and performance.

2977
01:25:44.970 --> 01:25:46.919
And but

2978
01:25:46.920 --> 01:25:49.739
then after a few years, I just,

2979
01:25:49.740 --> 01:25:51.629
you know, I felt these like critical

2980
01:25:51.630 --> 01:25:53.369
projects growing in me that I wanted

2981
01:25:53.370 --> 01:25:54.719
to write, like I wanted to, you

2982
01:25:54.720 --> 01:25:56.219
know, write like Susan Sontag, like

2983
01:25:56.220 --> 01:25:57.629
I wanted to. I want to and and I

2984
01:25:57.630 --> 01:25:59.849
didn't I was having fun,

2985
01:25:59.850 --> 01:26:01.379
but I could feel this certain part

2986
01:26:01.380 --> 01:26:03.539
of me like, atrophying, you know.

2987
01:26:03.540 --> 01:26:05.489
So I went to the City

2988
01:26:05.490 --> 01:26:07.889
University of New York.

2989
01:26:07.890 --> 01:26:10.019
I consulted the Gertrude Stein

2990
01:26:10.020 --> 01:26:11.879
statue in Bryant Park and asked

2991
01:26:11.880 --> 01:26:13.739
her what I should do, and she told

2992
01:26:13.740 --> 01:26:15.389
me I should do it.

2993
01:26:15.390 --> 01:26:16.709
Oh, my God. I love that.

2994
01:26:16.710 --> 01:26:18.059
I know. It's I don't know if I've

2995
01:26:18.060 --> 01:26:19.229
ever said that before is really

2996
01:26:19.230 --> 01:26:20.939
hokey, but I'm just inspired by our

2997
01:26:20.940 --> 01:26:22.379
intimate connection this evening.

2998
01:26:22.380 --> 01:26:24.209
But yeah, like, I just didn't know

2999
01:26:24.210 --> 01:26:26.189
if, like, academia was exactly right

3000
01:26:26.190 --> 01:26:27.899
for me. But. But CUNY was a good

3001
01:26:27.900 --> 01:26:29.759
school because I could just

3002
01:26:29.760 --> 01:26:31.049
take the elevator up and then take

3003
01:26:31.050 --> 01:26:32.339
it down and be back in my life.

3004
01:26:32.340 --> 01:26:33.659
And knowing that, like, I bartended

3005
01:26:33.660 --> 01:26:34.949
with and stuff, even really knew

3006
01:26:34.950 --> 01:26:36.089
like what I did with my they were

3007
01:26:36.090 --> 01:26:37.619
still, like, sleeping in and I just

3008
01:26:37.620 --> 01:26:38.999
like in classes or whatever.

3009
01:26:39.000 --> 01:26:40.919
So I got my

3010
01:26:40.920 --> 01:26:43.379
Ph.D. there and,

3011
01:26:43.380 --> 01:26:45.119
you know, and had started teaching

3012
01:26:45.120 --> 01:26:46.859
like creative writing at different

3013
01:26:46.860 --> 01:26:48.359
schools in New York because I was a

3014
01:26:48.360 --> 01:26:50.429
poet then and was publishing

3015
01:26:50.430 --> 01:26:53.009
poetry books. And so I inexplicably

3016
01:26:53.010 --> 01:26:54.689
was being hired to teach poetry

3017
01:26:56.460 --> 01:26:58.289
like an MFA is, which is just wild.

3018
01:26:58.290 --> 01:27:00.179
I was quite young, but but I really

3019
01:27:00.180 --> 01:27:01.949
liked it. And then I and then when I

3020
01:27:01.950 --> 01:27:03.629
had the, you know, doctorate degree,

3021
01:27:03.630 --> 01:27:04.630
I just,

3022
01:27:05.700 --> 01:27:06.599
you know, I just wanted to keep

3023
01:27:06.600 --> 01:27:08.129
teaching, but I didn't.

3024
01:27:08.130 --> 01:27:10.049
I did. I did a year in a regular

3025
01:27:10.050 --> 01:27:11.789
English department, and that was not

3026
01:27:11.790 --> 01:27:12.569
a great fit.

3027
01:27:12.570 --> 01:27:14.429
I was and then I got it was my that

3028
01:27:14.430 --> 01:27:15.329
was the only year where I got a

3029
01:27:15.330 --> 01:27:16.529
little worried because I just

3030
01:27:16.530 --> 01:27:17.909
thought, Oh, this is stodgy.

3031
01:27:17.910 --> 01:27:19.499
Like, this is stodgy.

3032
01:27:19.500 --> 01:27:21.629
Like, I don't know. And then I

3033
01:27:21.630 --> 01:27:23.489
that was on the East Coast and

3034
01:27:23.490 --> 01:27:25.319
then just, you know, I mean,

3035
01:27:25.320 --> 01:27:26.129
it's not really a chance.

3036
01:27:26.130 --> 01:27:27.929
It was like overdetermined because

3037
01:27:27.930 --> 01:27:29.969
of my California past

3038
01:27:29.970 --> 01:27:31.859
and my interest in art and whatnot.

3039
01:27:31.860 --> 01:27:33.809
But I was hired to join

3040
01:27:33.810 --> 01:27:34.979
the School of Critical Studies at

3041
01:27:34.980 --> 01:27:35.980
Cal Arts,

3042
01:27:37.050 --> 01:27:39.659
Cal Arts and, and,

3043
01:27:39.660 --> 01:27:41.549
and it seemed like a better match

3044
01:27:41.550 --> 01:27:44.009
because it was teaching art students

3045
01:27:44.010 --> 01:27:46.019
about things I knew about as a as

3046
01:27:46.020 --> 01:27:47.849
a writer and scholar,

3047
01:27:47.850 --> 01:27:49.259
and about the overlaps between

3048
01:27:49.260 --> 01:27:51.089
literature and theory and art

3049
01:27:51.090 --> 01:27:53.189
making. And then I

3050
01:27:53.190 --> 01:27:54.659
came out here to do that, and I

3051
01:27:54.660 --> 01:27:56.519
taught there for 11 years and wrote

3052
01:27:56.520 --> 01:27:58.499
a lot of books and had a and

3053
01:27:58.500 --> 01:28:00.719
it was a great place to be and

3054
01:28:00.720 --> 01:28:02.189
learn a lot more about art than I

3055
01:28:02.190 --> 01:28:02.999
had done before.

3056
01:28:03.000 --> 01:28:04.859
And and then now I teach at

3057
01:28:04.860 --> 01:28:06.599
USC and it's a longer answer.

3058
01:28:06.600 --> 01:28:07.799
I'm like just babbling.

3059
01:28:07.800 --> 01:28:09.419
But I love teaching and I don't even

3060
01:28:09.420 --> 01:28:11.339
have to. I don't have to try and

3061
01:28:11.340 --> 01:28:12.659
stay motivated to do it.

3062
01:28:12.660 --> 01:28:14.669
It doesn't like that never has

3063
01:28:14.670 --> 01:28:15.839
occurred to me, you know, I just

3064
01:28:15.840 --> 01:28:16.840
like it.

3065
01:28:39.780 --> 01:28:41.889
Oh, God. No pressure.

3066
01:28:41.890 --> 01:28:42.789
Hi.

3067
01:28:42.790 --> 01:28:44.639
I knew I had to

3068
01:28:44.640 --> 01:28:47.219
escape from Massachusetts.

3069
01:28:47.220 --> 01:28:48.299
So you got out?

3070
01:28:48.300 --> 01:28:48.849
Got out.

3071
01:28:48.850 --> 01:28:49.679
Got out, kid.

3072
01:28:49.680 --> 01:28:51.959
And I, too, are reformed postmodern

3073
01:28:51.960 --> 01:28:54.269
dancers. So amazing.

3074
01:28:54.270 --> 01:28:55.019
You know what? Everyone keeps.

3075
01:28:55.020 --> 01:28:56.579
Making fun of people who majored in,

3076
01:28:56.580 --> 01:28:58.499
like, gender queer dance theory.

3077
01:28:58.500 --> 01:28:59.849
I must admit.

3078
01:28:59.850 --> 01:29:01.859
I know. I'm like, it was so good.

3079
01:29:01.860 --> 01:29:02.879
They don't know what they're missing.

3080
01:29:02.880 --> 01:29:04.770
It's truly clown clown shit.

3081
01:29:06.930 --> 01:29:08.489
So, speaking of teaching, I wanted

3082
01:29:08.490 --> 01:29:10.529
to ask. So I'm at UCLA right now.

3083
01:29:10.530 --> 01:29:12.609
I'm getting an MFA in dance.

3084
01:29:12.610 --> 01:29:13.979
I got friends.

3085
01:29:15.060 --> 01:29:16.199
I'm also.

3086
01:29:16.200 --> 01:29:17.909
So I'm. I'm coach teaching

3087
01:29:17.910 --> 01:29:19.469
commitment to for this initiative

3088
01:29:19.470 --> 01:29:21.449
that does sex ed

3089
01:29:21.450 --> 01:29:23.339
work with the undergrads.

3090
01:29:23.340 --> 01:29:24.719
And they make these generative

3091
01:29:24.720 --> 01:29:26.069
theater productions for high school

3092
01:29:26.070 --> 01:29:27.689
students, and they're great.

3093
01:29:27.690 --> 01:29:29.279
I love them. My students are friggin

3094
01:29:29.280 --> 01:29:30.479
amazing. They're all like super

3095
01:29:30.480 --> 01:29:32.039
queer. A lot of them have these,

3096
01:29:32.040 --> 01:29:33.479
like, invisible disabilities and

3097
01:29:33.480 --> 01:29:34.649
they're all like rock stars.

3098
01:29:34.650 --> 01:29:36.419
And they're also all like,

3099
01:29:36.420 --> 01:29:37.469
terrified.

3100
01:29:37.470 --> 01:29:39.539
I can see in their eyes there's

3101
01:29:39.540 --> 01:29:41.460
this like hunger and there's this,

3102
01:29:42.960 --> 01:29:45.209
like, uncertainty about

3103
01:29:45.210 --> 01:29:47.039
the world around them, but also just

3104
01:29:47.040 --> 01:29:48.749
about what they're doing around,

3105
01:29:48.750 --> 01:29:50.129
like, sex and consent.

3106
01:29:50.130 --> 01:29:52.049
And I think the two of

3107
01:29:52.050 --> 01:29:54.749
you both have

3108
01:29:54.750 --> 01:29:56.639
a really great way of

3109
01:29:56.640 --> 01:29:58.889
talking about

3110
01:29:58.890 --> 01:30:01.199
mentorship, like being mentors.

3111
01:30:01.200 --> 01:30:02.579
And I guess I'm wondering, like, if

3112
01:30:02.580 --> 01:30:04.409
you were to walk into my class

3113
01:30:04.410 --> 01:30:05.849
tomorrow, I'm not inviting you, but

3114
01:30:05.850 --> 01:30:07.399
like, I mean, if you, like, were

3115
01:30:07.400 --> 01:30:09.509
crashing like, like it's it's

3116
01:30:09.510 --> 01:30:11.699
Friday at 11 room to a

3117
01:30:11.700 --> 01:30:12.700
wacky

3118
01:30:13.830 --> 01:30:14.909
like if you were to, like, come into

3119
01:30:14.910 --> 01:30:16.769
the class and you had maybe 10

3120
01:30:16.770 --> 01:30:18.659
minutes to don't take 10 minutes

3121
01:30:18.660 --> 01:30:19.739
right now but like if you were to

3122
01:30:19.740 --> 01:30:22.019
talk about pleasure to them

3123
01:30:22.020 --> 01:30:23.669
I guess I'm sure you said pleasure.

3124
01:30:23.670 --> 01:30:24.809
Yeah. Because I think that's a

3125
01:30:24.810 --> 01:30:26.219
that's a really important component

3126
01:30:26.220 --> 01:30:27.479
to what? To the work we're doing.

3127
01:30:27.480 --> 01:30:28.709
It's also a component that feels

3128
01:30:28.710 --> 01:30:31.169
really missing from sex ed work,

3129
01:30:31.170 --> 01:30:32.999
I guess. I'm curious how the two of

3130
01:30:33.000 --> 01:30:34.619
you would talk about pleasure to a

3131
01:30:34.620 --> 01:30:35.729
bunch of 19 year olds.

3132
01:30:41.420 --> 01:30:43.849
I think I mean, I think that

3133
01:30:43.850 --> 01:30:45.229
I'm just trying to imagine myself at

3134
01:30:45.230 --> 01:30:47.269
19 and what I would have wanted

3135
01:30:47.270 --> 01:30:49.219
to hear. Unit

3136
01:30:49.220 --> 01:30:50.149
there.

3137
01:30:50.150 --> 01:30:50.609
You said.

3138
01:30:50.610 --> 01:30:52.129
They are fucking.

3139
01:30:52.130 --> 01:30:53.149
They are.

3140
01:30:53.150 --> 01:30:54.619
Oh, well, what do they need then?

3141
01:30:54.620 --> 01:30:56.299
That sounds good.

3142
01:30:56.300 --> 01:30:57.469
I don't know.

3143
01:30:57.470 --> 01:30:58.399
But you said they're terrified.

3144
01:30:58.400 --> 01:30:59.509
Meaning? Like they're terrified of

3145
01:30:59.510 --> 01:31:01.069
doing something wrong or they're

3146
01:31:01.070 --> 01:31:02.070
terrified.

3147
01:31:07.590 --> 01:31:08.590
Mm.

3148
01:31:22.630 --> 01:31:23.630
Ohio.

3149
01:31:27.640 --> 01:31:28.789
Mm hmm. I mean.

3150
01:31:28.790 --> 01:31:30.590
In your work specifically, not.

3151
01:31:33.050 --> 01:31:34.050
Right.

3152
01:31:35.140 --> 01:31:36.489
I mean, I think there needs to be a

3153
01:31:36.490 --> 01:31:37.869
little bit of a safe space to fuck

3154
01:31:37.870 --> 01:31:39.669
up, you know, And I think people

3155
01:31:39.670 --> 01:31:41.589
need to be a little bit brave

3156
01:31:41.590 --> 01:31:42.909
and like in touch with their own

3157
01:31:42.910 --> 01:31:45.129
intention and their own heart and

3158
01:31:45.130 --> 01:31:46.569
know that if they fuck up.

3159
01:31:48.430 --> 01:31:49.599
That's an opportunity to learn how

3160
01:31:49.600 --> 01:31:50.509
to be accountable.

3161
01:31:50.510 --> 01:31:52.239
That's an opportunity to have a

3162
01:31:52.240 --> 01:31:53.199
conversation.

3163
01:31:53.200 --> 01:31:54.399
That's an opportunity to learn how

3164
01:31:54.400 --> 01:31:55.479
to be an adult in the world.

3165
01:31:55.480 --> 01:31:56.409
We all fuck up.

3166
01:31:56.410 --> 01:31:58.119
You know, it's like they're they're

3167
01:31:58.120 --> 01:32:00.129
setting themselves up for some some

3168
01:32:00.130 --> 01:32:02.229
gnarly experience, as if

3169
01:32:02.230 --> 01:32:04.509
the idea is just to be like never,

3170
01:32:04.510 --> 01:32:05.889
to never make a mistake.

3171
01:32:05.890 --> 01:32:06.969
I mean, that's just simply not

3172
01:32:06.970 --> 01:32:08.019
possible.

3173
01:32:08.020 --> 01:32:09.339
You know, and I know the stakes can

3174
01:32:09.340 --> 01:32:11.139
be high when your mistakes are

3175
01:32:11.140 --> 01:32:12.909
public because you're an artist.

3176
01:32:12.910 --> 01:32:14.439
You're putting stuff out there.

3177
01:32:14.440 --> 01:32:17.409
But, you know, I guess

3178
01:32:17.410 --> 01:32:19.929
I just think about, like, knowing

3179
01:32:19.930 --> 01:32:22.299
their own intentions, you know?

3180
01:32:22.300 --> 01:32:24.159
And I know it paves the

3181
01:32:24.160 --> 01:32:26.229
road to hell. I know, you know, but

3182
01:32:26.230 --> 01:32:28.239
I feel like a safe space

3183
01:32:28.240 --> 01:32:29.679
to fuck up, I think is very

3184
01:32:29.680 --> 01:32:30.519
important.

3185
01:32:30.520 --> 01:32:32.139
You know, and if we can offer that

3186
01:32:32.140 --> 01:32:33.140
to each other.

3187
01:32:34.300 --> 01:32:35.889
I mean, also you probably and I can

3188
01:32:35.890 --> 01:32:37.179
tell just by like the way you're

3189
01:32:37.180 --> 01:32:38.229
talking, I think you're probably

3190
01:32:38.230 --> 01:32:39.879
already doing it. But and like an A,

3191
01:32:39.880 --> 01:32:41.649
your palpable love for them, you

3192
01:32:41.650 --> 01:32:43.129
know, but like.

3193
01:32:43.130 --> 01:32:44.130
What's that?

3194
01:32:44.980 --> 01:32:46.809
Yeah, but I think I mean,

3195
01:32:46.810 --> 01:32:47.799
here's the thing. It's not I mean,

3196
01:32:47.800 --> 01:32:49.119
it's too much responsibility on a

3197
01:32:49.120 --> 01:32:50.829
teacher to be like, Oh, you can give

3198
01:32:50.830 --> 01:32:51.909
that all to them. But.

3199
01:32:51.910 --> 01:32:54.039
But I do think that like

3200
01:32:54.040 --> 01:32:56.079
modeling a space, like

3201
01:32:56.080 --> 01:32:58.089
where, how you respond to

3202
01:32:59.770 --> 01:33:00.770
things.

3203
01:33:03.010 --> 01:33:04.869
You're forming, how they're going to

3204
01:33:04.870 --> 01:33:06.639
then take your cues and how to

3205
01:33:06.640 --> 01:33:08.649
respond. You know, and I think that

3206
01:33:08.650 --> 01:33:09.650
that

3207
01:33:10.960 --> 01:33:12.309
I mean, I think about that a lot,

3208
01:33:12.310 --> 01:33:13.599
you know, and I think about the way

3209
01:33:13.600 --> 01:33:14.709
that like often when you're a

3210
01:33:14.710 --> 01:33:16.539
student, you want the professor

3211
01:33:16.540 --> 01:33:18.279
to like shame the other terrible

3212
01:33:18.280 --> 01:33:19.329
people in your class.

3213
01:33:19.330 --> 01:33:20.769
Like they say something like, Oh,

3214
01:33:20.770 --> 01:33:21.939
yeah, now Maggie's really going to

3215
01:33:21.940 --> 01:33:23.559
take them down. And then I'm sure

3216
01:33:23.560 --> 01:33:24.609
they're really frustrated, but I'm

3217
01:33:24.610 --> 01:33:26.409
like, So does anyone want to say

3218
01:33:26.410 --> 01:33:27.699
something about what you just said?

3219
01:33:27.700 --> 01:33:29.199
And they're like, And they're not.

3220
01:33:29.200 --> 01:33:30.219
It's not what they want, right?

3221
01:33:30.220 --> 01:33:31.899
But I'm doing it.

3222
01:33:31.900 --> 01:33:32.889
I'm doing it.

3223
01:33:32.890 --> 01:33:33.789
I mean, I don't always do. That

3224
01:33:33.790 --> 01:33:34.689
depends on what gets said.

3225
01:33:34.690 --> 01:33:35.859
But, you know, I'm doing it in part

3226
01:33:35.860 --> 01:33:38.229
because I want first of all, like,

3227
01:33:38.230 --> 01:33:39.729
you know, they're whatever they're

3228
01:33:39.730 --> 01:33:41.619
doing with accountability or like

3229
01:33:41.620 --> 01:33:43.629
for themselves or with others,

3230
01:33:43.630 --> 01:33:44.829
like, you know, they're eventually

3231
01:33:44.830 --> 01:33:45.789
going to need to do together.

3232
01:33:45.790 --> 01:33:47.079
It's not about an authoritarian

3233
01:33:47.080 --> 01:33:48.579
who's going to, you know, give it

3234
01:33:48.580 --> 01:33:49.599
down from on high.

3235
01:33:49.600 --> 01:33:52.509
So that and then secondly,

3236
01:33:52.510 --> 01:33:53.919
you know, they they can work things

3237
01:33:53.920 --> 01:33:55.419
out better than they think they can

3238
01:33:55.420 --> 01:33:57.279
if they're given the opportunity to

3239
01:33:57.280 --> 01:33:59.139
and and like the space to do

3240
01:33:59.140 --> 01:34:01.059
it, you know. So I think and

3241
01:34:01.060 --> 01:34:03.069
if I modeled that kind of shaming,

3242
01:34:03.070 --> 01:34:04.449
they might think it's what they want

3243
01:34:04.450 --> 01:34:05.499
when in fact it would just

3244
01:34:05.500 --> 01:34:07.059
perpetuate something terrible, you

3245
01:34:07.060 --> 01:34:08.979
know. So there's a lot of, I think,

3246
01:34:08.980 --> 01:34:10.419
chaotic feelings there.

3247
01:34:10.420 --> 01:34:12.009
But I mean, the stuff about pleasure

3248
01:34:12.010 --> 01:34:13.089
is really interesting to me.

3249
01:34:13.090 --> 01:34:14.829
I think I want to talk to you later

3250
01:34:14.830 --> 01:34:16.989
to know more what you have in mind.

3251
01:34:16.990 --> 01:34:18.159
You know, I think pleasure gets like

3252
01:34:18.160 --> 01:34:20.019
a bad rap in many shapes or

3253
01:34:20.020 --> 01:34:21.430
forms. And I think that,

3254
01:34:22.720 --> 01:34:23.859
you know, I've never been

3255
01:34:24.880 --> 01:34:27.039
I mean, masturbatory to me

3256
01:34:27.040 --> 01:34:28.869
is a positive adjective, you

3257
01:34:28.870 --> 01:34:30.279
know? So people are like, this work

3258
01:34:30.280 --> 01:34:31.299
is really narcissistic and

3259
01:34:31.300 --> 01:34:32.769
masturbatory. I'm like, sign me up.

3260
01:34:32.770 --> 01:34:34.689
Like, I don't it just isn't like I'm

3261
01:34:34.690 --> 01:34:35.889
not I'm like, I'm like, what?

3262
01:34:35.890 --> 01:34:38.019
I'm like, who's like, this novel?

3263
01:34:38.020 --> 01:34:40.059
The 600 page historical novel

3264
01:34:40.060 --> 01:34:41.709
is not, as, you know, less

3265
01:34:41.710 --> 01:34:43.809
masturbatory than, you know,

3266
01:34:43.810 --> 01:34:46.059
my 67 page book about a heartbreak

3267
01:34:46.060 --> 01:34:47.559
like Despair Me, You know what I

3268
01:34:47.560 --> 01:34:49.029
mean? Like, in my opinion, you know,

3269
01:34:49.030 --> 01:34:50.229
I'm not I just don't buy it.

3270
01:34:50.230 --> 01:34:52.089
So and I don't think you can

3271
01:34:52.090 --> 01:34:54.189
make things without pleasuring

3272
01:34:54.190 --> 01:34:55.449
yourself like, I mean, and that's

3273
01:34:55.450 --> 01:34:56.499
why I actually I mean, I'm kidding

3274
01:34:56.500 --> 01:34:57.699
about masturbation, but I really

3275
01:34:57.700 --> 01:35:00.309
mean it because, like, you can't

3276
01:35:00.310 --> 01:35:01.539
really. What's the point?

3277
01:35:01.540 --> 01:35:02.319
Right?

3278
01:35:02.320 --> 01:35:03.999
And it's not that it's not every

3279
01:35:04.000 --> 01:35:05.619
minute of making me a lot of making

3280
01:35:05.620 --> 01:35:07.779
is a slog but there's like

3281
01:35:07.780 --> 01:35:09.939
these deeper pleasures as to why

3282
01:35:09.940 --> 01:35:12.099
you do it. You know,

3283
01:35:12.100 --> 01:35:13.749
it's not all just compulsion.

3284
01:35:13.750 --> 01:35:15.489
It's also the satisfaction of like

3285
01:35:15.490 --> 01:35:16.419
the thought. Well said.

3286
01:35:16.420 --> 01:35:17.889
It's like getting rid of the swirl

3287
01:35:17.890 --> 01:35:19.509
in your mind and getting it down.

3288
01:35:19.510 --> 01:35:21.039
It's like sharing it with others.

3289
01:35:21.040 --> 01:35:23.229
It's a really weird, ugly

3290
01:35:23.230 --> 01:35:25.059
word next to a really,

3291
01:35:25.060 --> 01:35:27.189
you know, long Latinate word.

3292
01:35:27.190 --> 01:35:28.119
You know, it's like all these

3293
01:35:28.120 --> 01:35:29.590
things. And I think,

3294
01:35:30.730 --> 01:35:32.199
you know, your curiosity and your

3295
01:35:32.200 --> 01:35:33.579
pleasure are like, linked.

3296
01:35:33.580 --> 01:35:34.939
And if you don't have your curiosity

3297
01:35:34.940 --> 01:35:36.339
and why are you going to make anything?

3298
01:35:36.340 --> 01:35:37.119
You know, you're not gonna make

3299
01:35:37.120 --> 01:35:38.120
anything. So,

3300
01:35:39.220 --> 01:35:41.769
you know, and I and, and, and

3301
01:35:41.770 --> 01:35:42.879
I don't know. I trust you, though.

3302
01:35:42.880 --> 01:35:43.880
I think you got.

3303
01:35:45.350 --> 01:35:46.429
I think that that I think we're

3304
01:35:46.430 --> 01:35:48.139
done. But you guys have been great.

3305
01:35:48.140 --> 01:35:49.579
Thank you so much.